Formula For Rating A Qb

[wayne]

I was just thinking of what would be a good formula for rating who the best QB is! With all this talk of how good Carson Palmer ,Big Ben, Matt Ryan,Peyton Manning, Tom Brady,Joe Flacco, etc... is, lets try to devise a formula for show who the best is and going from there:

[b]Talent Surrounding the QB + Wins/Losses + Stats of the QB[/b]


optional to add to the formula


[b]Defense of the team the QB is on + Defense of the teams the QB has faced =[/b]

Now, when I judge a QB, this is a formula that I always use and I think it covers pretty much everything to be able to rate a QB fairly.Also, it's fair to say that there are a level of importance when dealing with this particular formula.From greatest importance to least[b]:#1.Talent Surrounding the QB,#2.Defense of the teams the QB has faced,#3. Wins/Losses,#4. Stats of the QB,#5.Defense of the team the QB is on[/b]![b]Now,that is very arguable [/b]the way that I have the importance of each element of the formula but IMO, thats the way I see it.

One of the reasons I don't think Ryan is better than Flacco is b/c of this formula. Flacco takes home two of the main elements thats against him in this formula which is "[b]Talent Surrounding the QB and Defense of the teams the QB has faced"[/b] which is my two most important elements in this formula when rating a QB.I give Flacco the [b]"Defense of the team the QB is on" and "Wins/Losses"[/b] element thats in favor for him b/c obviously he went further into the playoffs than Ryan and the first element needs no explanation.On the other hand, Ryan has one element of this formula that is against him which is[b]:"Defense of the team the QB is on[/b]"!I give Ryan the [b]"Stats of the QB" and Talent Surrounding the QB"[/b] thats elements thats for him based on obvious reasons.To sum things up, Flacco has two of the main elements of rating a QB against him and Ryan has the most important element of this formula in his favor!

I was going to apply more QB's to this rating, mainly Carson Palmer who I believe to be overrated, especially after the major injury. He has always had superb talent surrounding him starting with OchoCinco and T.J. with Chris Henry in the slot, a WR that could start for most teams minus off field problems. Bengals O-line wasn't always a problem, use to be one of the strengths of this team back when Willie Anderson was in his prime with two good RB's running behind the O-line with the most recent one being Rudi Johnson.

What are your opinions of my formula, would love to hear it!

[slugz1]

wins bottom line win the game i dont care how pretty how ugly lead us to a victory.

[wayne]

[quote name='slugz1' date='19 July 2009 - 06:35 PM' timestamp='1248046501' post='208339']
[b]wins bottom line win the game [/b]i dont care how pretty how ugly lead us to a victory.
[/quote]

Obviously I agree but this was more so about rating a QB than what I have in bold. Lots of times, getting a WIN doesn't have anything to do with the QB, it's other deciding factors to getting the win than play from your QB like Big Bens first SB appearance!

[slugz1]

[quote name='wayne' date='19 July 2009 - 07:38 PM' timestamp='1248046706' post='208342']
Obviously I agree but this was more so about rating a QB than what I have in bold. Lots of times, getting a WIN doesn't have anything to do with the QB, it's other deciding factors to getting the win than play from your QB like Big Bens first SB appearance!
[/quote]
yeah you right as long as qb dont loss the game by his performance then he's done his job he dont have to go peyton manning on us to be a good qb that help us to a SB.

[wayne]

[quote name='slugz1' date='19 July 2009 - 06:43 PM' timestamp='1248047000' post='208345']
yeah you right as long as qb dont loss the game by his performance then he's done his job he dont have to go peyton manning on us to be a good qb that help us to a SB.
[/quote]

I agree completely, what do you think about my formula by the way?I can take constructive critcism so fire away,LOL!

[Sizzle]

Only 1 formula TD:INT. I dont care what anyone else, surrounding talent, wins and loses whatever, if you really want to know who the best individual "QB" is all you gotta do is look at his TD and int. And most cases when a QB throws alot of TD the team has a good record. Tom Brady, Payton.

Nice topic by the way. Its better than some of these terrible posts around here.

[Reddawn36]

[quote name='slugz1' date='19 July 2009 - 07:35 PM' timestamp='1248046501' post='208339']
wins bottom line win the game i dont care how pretty how ugly lead us to a victory.
[/quote]

not true, steve young is a HoF QB, and he had 2 wins with the buc's when he played for them


[quote name='Sizzle' date='19 July 2009 - 07:49 PM' timestamp='1248047360' post='208348']
Only 1 formula TD:INT. I dont care what anyone else, surrounding talent, wins and loses whatever, if you really want to know who the best individual "QB" is all you gotta do is look at his TD and int. And most cases when a QB throws alot of TD the team has a good record. Tom Brady, Payton.

Nice topic by the way. Its better than some of these terrible posts around here.
[/quote]

soo... what about teams with the run first philosophy? are you saying their QB's aren't good, because they don't have a high amount of TD's?

[berad]

Any "formula" you could ever devise would never be insufficient because football is a game of so many variables, so many unknowns, so many unpredictable circumstances that every player who has ever been a part of the NFL has gone through an entirely different experience compared to the man lined next to/across from him. So, in essence, there is no "fair" way to rate players against each other. Obviously, Tom Brady is better than Ryan Leaf, Larry Fitzgerald is better than Jerry Porter but trying to compare the same players to Peyton Manning and Andre Johnson, respectively, becomes much more difficult and exponentially more intricate.

Essentially, that's what draws so many people towards it. The unpredictability, the variability makes the game exciting to us.

[berad]

Of course, it still is awful fun to debate it, tee-hee

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='wayne' date='19 July 2009 - 07:33 PM' timestamp='1248046401' post='208338']
I was just thinking of what would be a good formula for rating who the best QB is! With all this talk of how good Carson Palmer ,Big Ben, Matt Ryan,Peyton Manning, Tom Brady,Joe Flacco, etc... is, lets try to devise a formula for show who the best is and going from there:

[b]Talent Surrounding the QB + Wins/Losses + Stats of the QB[/b]


optional to add to the formula


[b]Defense of the team the QB is on + Defense of the teams the QB has faced =[/b]

Now, when I judge a QB, this is a formula that I always use and I think it covers pretty much everything to be able to rate a QB fairly.Also, it's fair to say that there are a level of importance when dealing with this particular formula.From greatest importance to least[b]:#1.Talent Surrounding the QB,#2.Defense of the teams the QB has faced,#3. Wins/Losses,#4. Stats of the QB,#5.Defense of the team the QB is on[/b]![b]Now,that is very arguable [/b]the way that I have the importance of each element of the formula but IMO, thats the way I see it.

One of the reasons I don't think Ryan is better than Flacco is b/c of this formula. Flacco takes home two of the main elements thats against him in this formula which is "[b]Talent Surrounding the QB and Defense of the teams the QB has faced"[/b] which is my two most important elements in this formula when rating a QB.I give Flacco the [b]"Defense of the team the QB is on" and "Wins/Losses"[/b] element thats in favor for him b/c obviously he went further into the playoffs than Ryan and the first element needs no explanation.On the other hand, Ryan has one element of this formula that is against him which is[b]:"Defense of the team the QB is on[/b]"!I give Ryan the [b]"Stats of the QB" and Talent Surrounding the QB"[/b] thats elements thats for him based on obvious reasons.To sum things up, Flacco has two of the main elements of rating a QB against him and Ryan has the most important element of this formula in his favor!

I was going to apply more QB's to this rating, mainly Carson Palmer who I believe to be overrated, especially after the major injury. He has always had superb talent surrounding him starting with OchoCinco and T.J. with Chris Henry in the slot, a WR that could start for most teams minus off field problems. Bengals O-line wasn't always a problem, use to be one of the strengths of this team back when Willie Anderson was in his prime with two good RB's running behind the O-line with the most recent one being Rudi Johnson.

What are your opinions of my formula, would love to hear it!
[/quote]

i like the idea.....

i think the most important thing is being the qb your team needs you to be which is different for every QB

second is stats

third is wins losses

and the rest should be used as tie breakers if its close

[wayne]

[quote name='Sizzle' date='19 July 2009 - 05:49 PM' timestamp='1248047360' post='208348']
Only 1 formula TD:INT. I dont care what anyone else, surrounding talent, wins and loses whatever, if you really want to know who the best individual "QB" is all you gotta do is look at his TD and int. And most cases when a QB throws alot of TD the team has a good record. Tom Brady, Payton.

Nice topic by the way. Its better than some of these terrible posts around here.
[/quote]
The TD / Int ratio was part of the stat element of the formula.

[wayne]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='19 July 2009 - 07:34 PM' timestamp='1248053654' post='208385']
i like the idea.....

i think the most important thing is being the qb your team needs you to be which is different for every QB

second is stats

third is wins losses

and the rest should be used as tie breakers if its close
[/quote]
Only reason I don't put stats 2nd b/c what if your QB is facing mostly soft defenses for the season like Ryan did last season?

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='wayne' date='19 July 2009 - 09:38 PM' timestamp='1248053921' post='208389']
Only reason I don't put stats 2nd b/c what if your QB is facing mostly soft defenses for the season like Ryan did last season?
[/quote]

it does make a difference....but thats why its hard to rate first year QB's because they havent been around long enough to experience all the pitfalls

after a QB has played a few seasons strength of schedule is secondary because they have played all kinds

but in terms of joe vs matt its important because one played hard defenses and one did not in their only season

give it one more year and then the stats will be comparable without the strength of schedule thus making its inclusion in the formula only important for rookie year comparisons

[flynismo]

[quote name='wayne' date='19 July 2009 - 07:33 PM' timestamp='1248046401' post='208338']
I was just thinking of what would be a good formula for rating who the best QB is! With all this talk of how good Carson Palmer ,Big Ben, Matt Ryan,Peyton Manning, Tom Brady,Joe Flacco, etc... is, lets try to devise a formula for show who the best is and going from there:

[b]Talent Surrounding the QB + Wins/Losses + Stats of the QB[/b]


optional to add to the formula


[b]Defense of the team the QB is on + Defense of the teams the QB has faced =[/b]

Now, when I judge a QB, this is a formula that I always use and I think it covers pretty much everything to be able to rate a QB fairly.Also, it's fair to say that there are a level of importance when dealing with this particular formula.From greatest importance to least[b]:#1.Talent Surrounding the QB,#2.Defense of the teams the QB has faced,#3. Wins/Losses,#4. Stats of the QB,#5.Defense of the team the QB is on[/b]![b]Now,that is very arguable [/b]the way that I have the importance of each element of the formula but IMO, thats the way I see it.

One of the reasons I don't think Ryan is better than Flacco is b/c of this formula. Flacco takes home two of the main elements thats against him in this formula which is "[b]Talent Surrounding the QB and Defense of the teams the QB has faced"[/b] which is my two most important elements in this formula when rating a QB.I give Flacco the [b]"Defense of the team the QB is on" and "Wins/Losses"[/b] element thats in favor for him b/c obviously he went further into the playoffs than Ryan and the first element needs no explanation.On the other hand, Ryan has one element of this formula that is against him which is[b]:"Defense of the team the QB is on[/b]"!I give Ryan the [b]"Stats of the QB" and Talent Surrounding the QB"[/b] thats elements thats for him based on obvious reasons.To sum things up, Flacco has two of the main elements of rating a QB against him and Ryan has the most important element of this formula in his favor!

I was going to apply more QB's to this rating, mainly Carson Palmer who I believe to be overrated, especially after the major injury. He has always had superb talent surrounding him starting with OchoCinco and T.J. with Chris Henry in the slot, a WR that could start for most teams minus off field problems. Bengals O-line wasn't always a problem, use to be one of the strengths of this team back when Willie Anderson was in his prime with two good RB's running behind the O-line with the most recent one being Rudi Johnson.

What are your opinions of my formula, would love to hear it!
[/quote]

Some of the variables you want to include are definitely justifiable, but too broad to have a really reliable way to factor them in.....for example, the talent surrounding the QB. How do you quantify a WR's talent? By his stats? Hard to do since his numbers are in correlation to the QB, which is who we are trying to evaluate in the first place (in other words, is Carson Palmer really that good or does TJ and Ocho make him look better than he is?)....because any given player's production relies heavily on the system as a whole, there's never going to be a foolproof way to evaluate a player with simple formulas.

[Sizzle]

[quote name='Reddawn36' date='19 July 2009 - 08:34 PM' timestamp='1248050088' post='208368']
not true, steve young is a HoF QB, and he had 2 wins with the buc's when he played for them




soo... what about teams with the run first philosophy? are you saying their QB's aren't good, because they don't have a high amount of TD's?
[/quote]
Tell me one team with a run first philosophy that has a really good QB? None really. The reason teams run in the first place is because they dont trust the QB. You think if payton manning suddenly came to the ravens he would throw 15-20 passes a game? NO way.

[JEEPercreepermd]

[quote name='Sizzle' date='20 July 2009 - 01:42 PM' timestamp='1248111744' post='208527']
Tell me one team with a run first philosophy that has a really good QB? None really. The reason teams run in the first place is because they dont trust the QB. You think if payton manning suddenly came to the ravens he would throw 15-20 passes a game? NO way.
[/quote]
That's a little different because Peyton is who he is. Anybody short of him would probably only throw 15-20 passes a game

[tweety]

The variables would have to be formalized itself. Like Nismo said, the variables would just feed into itself eventually. There isn't a core variable for all formulas to end. At the end of the day and most likely our lifetime the humans will make the best comparisons over a formula.

The variables are definitely used when humans breakdown QBs. You won't end with a number, just a good argument.

[wayne]

[quote name='tweety' date='20 July 2009 - 01:21 PM' timestamp='1248114070' post='208540']
The variables would have to be formalized itself. Like Nismo said, the variables would just feed into itself eventually. There isn't a core variable for all formulas to end. At the end of the day and most likely our lifetime the humans will make the best comparisons over a formula.

The variables are definitely used when humans breakdown QBs. You won't end with a number, just a good argument.
[/quote]
I would more so say these elements in the formula are best for a situation like Flacco/Ryan comparison. I honestly feel Flacco is the better QB and I don't have my purple shades on and based off of this formula is why I feel that way. Ryan played agaisnt weaker defenses, imagine Flacco playing against those defenses on a regular like Ryan and imagine Ryan playing against the defenses Flacco had to face. We will really see this year is Ryan what he's made out to be as they will be faced up against the NFC East teams among other good defensive units.Ryan was surrounded by more talent obviously so of course he can perform his job more easily. Michael Turner, a WR that can go deep in Rodney White being the main to talents surrounding him!

I know you can't have a perfect formula when evaluatiing players but everyone has their own way of evaluating players!As long as it's reasonable and logical reasoning behind your way of evaluating players, I'm all ears!

[slugz1]

[quote name='wayne' date='19 July 2009 - 07:45 PM' timestamp='1248047139' post='208346']
I agree completely, what do you think about my formula by the way?I can take constructive critcism so fire away,LOL!
[/quote]

i think you hit the nail on the head with the D and all that yeah good one.

[slugz1]

[quote name='Sizzle' date='19 July 2009 - 07:49 PM' timestamp='1248047360' post='208348']
Only 1 formula TD:INT. I dont care what anyone else, surrounding talent, wins and loses whatever, if you really want to know who the best individual "QB" is all you gotta do is look at his TD and int. And most cases when a QB throws alot of TD the team has a good record. Tom Brady, Payton.

Nice topic by the way. Its better than some of these terrible posts around here.
[/quote]


what if Qb throw a perfect pass and the wideout tocuh it and it bounce off his hands for an INt then whatso i dont agree Int's dont really tell the whole story.

[slugz1]

[quote name='Reddawn36' date='19 July 2009 - 08:34 PM' timestamp='1248050088' post='208368']
not true, steve young is a HoF QB, and he had 2 wins with the buc's when he played for them
did he make it cause of that one season? No so come harder



soo... what about teams with the run first philosophy? are you saying their QB's aren't good, because they don't have a high amount of TD's?
[/quote]

i said win not TD's

[slugz1]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='19 July 2009 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1248054370' post='208391']
it does make a difference....but thats why its hard to rate first year QB's because they havent been around long enough to experience all the pitfalls

after a QB has played a few seasons strength of schedule is secondary because they have played all kinds

but in terms of joe vs matt its important because one played hard defenses and one did not in their only season

give it one more year and then the stats will be comparable without the strength of schedule thus making its inclusion in the formula only important for rookie year comparisons
[/quote]

besides us we play the toughest D inthe league two times a year. Did matt play the stealers last year if no then i dont want to hear it matt would get chew'd up by the ravens and stealers. there is no better D than the two i said and Flacco practice against the best every day and play the second best three time last year so watch out matt ice pop cause your not the one.

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='slugz1' date='20 July 2009 - 03:13 PM' timestamp='1248117224' post='208554']
we play the toughest D inthe league two times a year. Did matt play the stealers last year if no then i dont want to hear it matt would get chew'd up by the ravens and stealers. there is no better D than the two i said and Flacco practices against the [b][u]second[/u][/b] best every day and played the [b][u]best[/u][/b] three times last year so watch out matt ice pop cause your not the one.
[/quote]

i fixed it for you

[slugz1]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='20 July 2009 - 04:15 PM' timestamp='1248120909' post='208573']
i fixed it for you [img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif[/img]
[/quote]
yeah right yall couldnt even hold the ravens jock straps. tell troy to step up his Td's then holla at Reed then Tell yall Mlb to get some more hit like Ray Then holla at us. Yall washed up Lb harrison with most of his FF's coming from Qb's and not Rb's he can even guard a Wr so save his life. Tell Harrison and Woodley that Gaither and Oher is gonna make them look stupid against us this year. Oh tell Clark Mcgahee got something for him this year, a quick stiff arm to that gap mouth of his using head to head contact to lay somebody out. Troy couldnt even lay out Mason when he went for a big hit instead mason just brushed him off like a lil doll. The game stealers are jokes if you didnt have any Ref's on yall side we would have SMACK DVD yall.

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='slugz1' date='20 July 2009 - 07:41 PM' timestamp='1248133267' post='208660']
yeah right yall couldnt even hold the ravens jock straps. tell troy to step up his Td's then holla at Reed then Tell yall Mlb to get some more hit like Ray Then holla at us. Yall washed up Lb harrison with most of his FF's coming from Qb's and not Rb's he can even guard a Wr so save his life. Tell Harrison and Woodley that Gaither and Oher is gonna make them look stupid against us this year. Oh tell Clark Mcgahee got something for him this year, a quick stiff arm to that gap mouth of his using head to head contact to lay somebody out. Troy could even lay out Mason when he went for a big hit instead mason just brushed him off like a lil doll. The game stealers are jokes if you didnt have any Ref's on yall side we would have SMACK DVD yall.
[/quote]

ok i will tell them that