Toughest Player And Best Qb

[berad]

[quote name='darklight1216' date='19 July 2009 - 09:51 PM' timestamp='1248054695' post='208395']
You wouldn't need to make that arguement for him though. He wins when he has broken ribs or when he's healthy. For Palmer you have to say "but he was injured."
[/quote]

Palmer suffered an ACL and an elbow ligament/tendon tear. Those are completely different animals as compared to the pains Roethlisberger goes through. He could not play with those injuries, it's a simple fact.

[darklight1216]

[quote name='berad' date='19 July 2009 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1248054903' post='208397']
Okay, you're overstating and obviously not interested in having a decent conversation. Ben Roethlisberger has only played [b][i][u]8[/u][/i][/b] more games than Carson Palmer, he is not Brett Favre by any means.
[/quote]
When did Steelers Prophet call Ben R. "Brett Favre"?
One might get the feeling that you are overstating and not interested in having a decent conversation...
[quote name='berad' date='19 July 2009 - 09:57 PM' timestamp='1248055038' post='208398']
Palmer suffered an ACL and an elbow ligament/tendon tear. Those are completely different animals as compared to the pains Roethlisberger goes through. He could not play with those injuries, it's a simple fact.
[/quote]
And if Ben had had those injuries and lost games because of it, he would be a loser (which I would have no qualms with). It's a simple fact.

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='berad' date='19 July 2009 - 09:57 PM' timestamp='1248055038' post='208398']
Palmer suffered an ACL and an elbow ligament/tendon tear. Those are completely different animals as compared to the pains Roethlisberger goes through. He could not play with those injuries, it's a simple fact.
[/quote]

but see thats my point......carson seems in recent years prone to the season ender

now dont get me wrong im not saying its his fault or even that its a big deal

but this combined with nearly identical stats

and combined with the fact that carson has better receivers and has thrown the ball 260 more times

says that ben has the edge IMO

[wayne]

Overall Big Bens is the better QB, hands down. His ability to buy time and move in the pocket to just not sit there like a punching bag is what gives him the edge over Palmer. Palmer probably continues to get injured with him sitting there like a duck!When the pocket completely breaks down , Palmer has to hope a WR is open right then and there!

[BloodRaven]

Ben is much better, I don't rate Palmer anymore. To me hes like Brett Favre, he doesn't scare anyone with his declining noodle arm.

[Reddawn36]

[quote name='darklight1216' date='19 July 2009 - 09:18 PM' timestamp='1248052686' post='208381']



So can I assume he played a significant number of games during those two years?

Since I'm making a decision based on very little information, I'm going to go over the question again.

"Would you say a QB who was part of a 2-14 team for 2 consecutive years, would you say thats the QB's fault, or the team as a whole"

Okay, so you're not asking me whether I think the qb is, was, or will be good at some point; nor are you asking if I think that there are other qbs better than him. You simply want to know if it's entirely "the QB's fault" or if the "the team as a whole" (which also includes the qb) is to blame.

I would not place the blame exclusively upon his shoulders nor would I completely excuse the losses as having nothing to do with him. This is assuming that he was the primary starter. If, as a second string player, he didn't take many snaps during those two years, then my opinion would be different.
[/quote]

eh, well anyway the said QB was steve young when he played for tampa... and we know how he turned out

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='19 July 2009 - 09:52 PM' timestamp='1248054748' post='208396']
alot of players play with pain.....the key word here is play

ben is in pain but he still puts up good numbers most years....carson gets hit and its season over....its hard to lead your team to glory on the bench
[/quote]

soooo.... what your saying is that Tom Brady is injury prone.... I mean he's had half of the season enders as Carson Palmer... and that the Pats would have been better off if he did play with the messed up knee?

Here's my thing about this debate that I seem to be missing, you guys are talking about the QB's #'s w/ their injuries, when instead you should be comparing the teams OL's while both players have been there... yeah, Ben had a very bad one last year..... but how long has Palmers been terrible? especially in our division, how many hits can you take playing against the AFC North before you really do get injured? Hell even Ben had a concussion that got him removed from a game with his OL for the one year they were bad..... Palmer's has been far worse for far longer, thats why he has been "injury prone"

Besides, its not like you could just play through the injuries he had...... if he played with that elbow injury, he'd be making anybody in the secondary look like Ed Reed....

[darklight1216]

[quote name='Reddawn36' date='20 July 2009 - 12:35 PM' timestamp='1248107729' post='208506']
eh, well anyway the said QB was steve young when he played for tampa... and we know how he turned out[/quote]
Yeah, I figured that out after your second post. But it's not like you ever asked me if he was good or not so it hardly mattered imo...
But when you throw nearly twice as many interceptions as touchdowns, it's no wonder your team loses.

[quote]
soooo.... what your saying is that Tom Brady is injury prone.... I mean he's had half of the season enders as Carson Palmer... and that the Pats would have been better off if he did play with the messed up knee?
[/quote]
I think he's saying that Carson Palmer is injury proned and that Carson Palmer can't be counted on to win games for his team because Carson Palmer is often injured.
I could be wrong though; it would not be a first.
[quote]
Here's my thing about this debate that I seem to be missing, you guys are talking about the QB's #'s w/ their injuries, when instead you should be comparing the teams OL's while both players have been there... yeah, Ben had a very bad one last year..... but how long has Palmers been terrible? especially in our division, how many hits can you take playing against the AFC North before you really do get injured? Hell even Ben had a concussion that got him removed from a game with his OL for the one year they were bad..... Palmer's has been far worse for far longer, thats why he has been "injury prone"[/quote]
Ben has been sacked 192 times in 72 games; Carson has been sacked 108 times in 65 games. If you divide the number of sacks by the number of games, Ben is sacked 2.6 times per game and Carson is sacked 1.6 times. Now consider how many times we have all seen Ben save himself from the sack. It's not beyond the realm of possibilty to say that Ben's O-line is allowing more defenders to get close to him than the Bengals O-line is allowing to get to Palmer. That is just speculation however, but the numbers show that there is not a huge difference between the amount of times both guys have been sacked.
Furthermore Ben has rushed 188 times in comparison to Carson's 108 times, so Ben has had more opportunities to get injured because of it.

Edit: Darn me- I keep defending him. >.<
[quote]
Besides, its not like you could just play through the injuries he had...... if he played with that elbow injury, he'd be making anybody in the secondary look like Ed Reed....
[/quote]
Blasphemy. There is no other Ed Reed.

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='Reddawn36' date='20 July 2009 - 12:35 PM' timestamp='1248107729' post='208506']
eh, well anyway the said QB was steve young when he played for tampa... and we know how he turned out



soooo.... what your saying is that Tom Brady is injury prone.... I mean he's had half of the season enders as Carson Palmer... and that the Pats would have been better off if he did play with the messed up knee?

Here's my thing about this debate that I seem to be missing, you guys are talking about the QB's #'s w/ their injuries, when instead you should be comparing the teams OL's while both players have been there... yeah, Ben had a very bad one last year..... but how long has Palmers been terrible? especially in our division, how many hits can you take playing against the AFC North before you really do get injured? Hell even Ben had a concussion that got him removed from a game with his OL for the one year they were bad..... Palmer's has been far worse for far longer, thats why he has been "injury prone"

Besides, its not like you could just play through the injuries he had...... if he played with that elbow injury, he'd be making anybody in the secondary look like Ed Reed....
[/quote]

First off Tom has been playing 8 seasons and just got his first bad injury
carson has had two bad injuries in three years.....you cant compare the two

second as darklight stated ben has been sacked more times then carson....and ben takes hits when he throws as well because he is always running around

so palmers o-line has nothing to do with the fact that palmer gets injured

and last i never said palmer should have played with his injury....i just said ben gets hit more and yet he is tough enough not to fall apart

[berad]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='20 July 2009 - 04:59 PM' timestamp='1248123542' post='208593']

so palmers o-line has nothing to do with the fact that palmer gets injured

and last i never said palmer should have played with his injury....[b]i just said ben gets hit more and yet he is tough enough not to fall apart[/b]
[/quote]

Oh come on. You know that the type of injuries he sustained were more of a matter of a "perfect" hit on a certain area of his body than anything. You don't honestly believe Ben Roethlisberger's knee and elbow can withstand ligament damage more effectively than Palmer's or any other player, do you?

And, for the record, I'm tired about debating these QBs. Will the season START, already?!

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='berad' date='20 July 2009 - 05:06 PM' timestamp='1248124017' post='208598']
Oh come on. You know that the type of injuries he sustained were more of a matter of a "perfect" hit on a certain area of his body than anything. You don't honestly believe Ben Roethlisberger's knee and elbow can withstand ligament damage more effectively than Palmer's or any other player, do you?

And, for the record, I'm tired about debating these QBs. Will the season START, already?!
[/quote]

hahaha

no im not saying that exactly.......all im saying is for whatever reason carson is on an injury roll

and i cant wait for the season to start either...i have tickets for 6 games this year

[berad]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='20 July 2009 - 05:22 PM' timestamp='1248124960' post='208614']
hahaha

no im not saying that exactly.......all im saying is for whatever reason carson is on an injury roll

and i cant wait for the season to start either...i have tickets for 6 games this year
[/quote]

Lucky freakin' Steelers fan

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='berad' date='20 July 2009 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1248125312' post='208616']
Lucky freakin' Steelers fan
[/quote]

i usually only go to Ravens at home and Ravens away

but this year im also going to the titans game, the vikings game, the cheifs game and the Dolphind game

[berad]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='20 July 2009 - 05:39 PM' timestamp='1248125961' post='208621']
i usually only go to Ravens at home and Ravens away

but this year im also going to the titans game, the vikings game, the cheifs game and the Dolphind game
[/quote]

Wow, all should be good games. Except maybe the Chiefs and Dolphins, but who doesn't like a good blowout every now and then?

[ravensgirlx88]

Let me start by saying I hate Pittsburgh and hate giving them credit for ANYTHING, BUT to me, Ben is the toughest player in the division and arguably the league. He takes sack after sack and never fails to get back up and make big plays, even when he knows another sack is 1.5 seconds away. He deserves respect. No matter how bad you "hate" the team.

[BmoreRav]

[quote name='ravensgirlx88' date='20 July 2009 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1248126932' post='208624']
Let me start by saying I hate Pittsburgh and hate giving them credit for ANYTHING, BUT to me, Ben is the toughest player in the division and arguably the league. He takes sack after sack and never fails to get back up and make big plays, even when he knows another sack is 1.5 seconds away. He deserves respect. No matter how bad you "hate" the team.
[/quote]

I agree with you, Bens toughness and clutch play isn't in question whatsoever!!

[SteelersProphet]

i wanted to go to the chiefs game because i wanted to watch cassel throw interceptions

and im going to the dolphins game because i have a cousin who is a dolphins fan and he talks alot of smack

[slugz1]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='20 July 2009 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1248134965' post='208674']
i wanted to go to the chiefs game because i wanted to watch cassel throw interceptions

and im going to the dolphins game because i have a cousin who is a dolphins fan and he talks alot of smack
[/quote]
i will laugh if cassel burn yall a** for four Td's

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='slugz1' date='20 July 2009 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1248135832' post='208678']
i will laugh if cassel brun yall a** for four Td's
[/quote]

lol yea me too....wait....no i would cry

[Reddawn36]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='20 July 2009 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1248134965' post='208674']
i wanted to go to the chiefs game because i wanted to watch cassel throw interceptions

and im going to the dolphins game because i have a cousin who is a dolphins fan and he talks alot of smack
[/quote]

you know, living in FL dolphins fans can be annoying, they are almost always in hiding when they are doing bad, and when they do good they think they have the best team in the NFL.... whats funny is that my friend (a dolphins fan.. go figure) was telling me how the dolphins are sooooooo much better then the ravens..... part of his reasoning was that "we just rely on our star players to do the work" .... my reply to that was.... "if you remove our star players.... we'd have 1 maybe 2 ppl on defense"

oh and I just had to mention the name Ed Reed, and he shut up

[Reddawn36]

[quote name='darklight1216' date='20 July 2009 - 04:46 PM' timestamp='1248122770' post='208584']

I think he's saying that Carson Palmer is injury proned and that Carson Palmer can't be counted on to win games for his team because Carson Palmer is often injured.
I could be wrong though; it would not be a first.

Ben has been sacked 192 times in 72 games; Carson has been sacked 108 times in 65 games. If you divide the number of sacks by the number of games, Ben is sacked 2.6 times per game and Carson is sacked 1.6 times. Now consider how many times we have all seen Ben save himself from the sack. It's not beyond the realm of possibilty to say that Ben's O-line is allowing more defenders to get close to him than the Bengals O-line is allowing to get to Palmer. That is just speculation however, but the numbers show that there is not a huge difference between the amount of times both guys have been sacked.
Furthermore Ben has rushed 188 times in comparison to Carson's 108 times, so Ben has had more opportunities to get injured because of it.

Edit: Darn me- I keep defending him. >.<

Blasphemy. There is no other Ed Reed.
[/quote]

like someone else said, its also the way you get hit.... sure you could take hits to the chest and torso all day w/ playable injuries... but when you take a hit in the elbow or the knee your season is just about finished as a QB.... on the flip side Palmer needs to learn how to absorb the hit

I didn't say they become ed reed, just that they look like him.... damn copy cats

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='20 July 2009 - 04:59 PM' timestamp='1248123542' post='208593']
First off Tom has been playing 8 seasons and just got his first bad injury
carson has had two bad injuries in three years.....you cant compare the two

second as darklight stated ben has been sacked more times then carson....and ben takes hits when he throws as well because he is always running around

so palmers o-line has nothing to do with the fact that palmer gets injured

[b]and last i never said palmer should have played with his injury....i just said ben gets hit more and yet he is tough enough not to fall apart[/b]
[/quote]

Then how are you comparing his injuries to ben's, if ben is suffering different injuries.... what I'm trying to say is... playing with broken or cracked ribs is extremely painful, it is still doable, playing with a torn ligament in the knee or elbow.... not nearly as much.... like I said earlier Palmer could learn how to avoid or absorb a hit better, but comparing cracked ribs or a concussion to torn ligaments in the knee or elbow... is kind of like comparing apples and oranges.... both are fruits, just different kind of fruits

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='Reddawn36' date='20 July 2009 - 09:25 PM' timestamp='1248139529' post='208687']
like someone else said, its also the way you get hit.... sure you could take hits to the chest and torso all day w/ playable injuries... but when you take a hit in the elbow or the knee your season is just about finished as a QB.... on the flip side Palmer needs to learn how to absorb the hit

Then how are you comparing his injuries to ben's, if ben is suffering different injuries.... what I'm trying to say is... playing with broken or cracked ribs is extremely painful, it is still doable, playing with a torn ligament in the knee or elbow.... not nearly as much.... like I said earlier Palmer could learn how to avoid or absorb a hit better, but comparing cracked ribs or a concussion to torn ligaments in the knee or elbow... is kind of like comparing apples and oranges.... both are fruits, just different kind of fruits
[/quote]

im not comparing the injuries themselves....im just saying that carson has gotten the season ender twice in three years......and thats bad......and ben has not....and thats good

thats the extent of my injury arguement

[jfc13]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='21 July 2009 - 09:15 AM' timestamp='1248182103' post='208777']
im not comparing the injuries themselves....im just saying that carson has gotten the season ender twice in three years......and thats bad......and ben has not....and thats good

thats the extent of my injury arguement
[/quote]
LOL. The extent of my injury argument is: keep the injuries with the Steelers, Bengals, and Browns.

[darklight1216]

[quote name='jfc13' date='21 July 2009 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1248183593' post='208784']
LOL. The extent of my injury argument is: keep the injuries with the Steelers, Bengals, and Browns.
[/quote]
Haha, I can agree with that.

[Reddawn36]

[quote name='jfc13' date='21 July 2009 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1248183593' post='208784']
LOL. The extent of my injury argument is: keep the injuries with the Steelers, Bengals, and Browns.
[/quote]

I like the way you think

[quote name='darklight1216' date='21 July 2009 - 01:20 PM' timestamp='1248196821' post='208849']
Haha, I can agree with that.
[/quote]

something all ravens fans can agree with for the injury bug in the AFC North

[Reddawn36]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='21 July 2009 - 09:15 AM' timestamp='1248182103' post='208777']
im not comparing the injuries themselves....im just saying that carson has gotten the season ender twice in three years......and thats [b]good[/b]......and ben has not....and thats [b]bad[/b]

thats the extent of my injury arguement
[/quote]

fixed

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='Reddawn36' date='21 July 2009 - 03:54 PM' timestamp='1248206053' post='208879']
fixed
[/quote]

lol

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='18 July 2009 - 05:01 PM' timestamp='1247889670' post='208025']
Big Ben wins best QB over Palmer

James Harrison wins toughest player over Lewis in a close one

i expected Ben to win....but Harrison was a suprise



http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcnorth/0-3-172/Player-survey--Top-QB-and-toughest-player.html?username=afcnorth&archiveId=3&bId=0&entryId=172&sort=oldest
[/quote]
Harrison tougher than Lewis? Who was James Harrison before last season?

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='18 July 2009 - 05:01 PM' timestamp='1247889670' post='208025']
Big Ben wins best QB over Palmer

James Harrison wins toughest player over Lewis in a close one

i expected Ben to win....but Harrison was a suprise



http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcnorth/0-3-172/Player-survey--Top-QB-and-toughest-player.html?username=afcnorth&archiveId=3&bId=0&entryId=172&sort=oldest
[/quote]
Harrison tougher than Lewis? Who was James Harrison before last season?

[darklight1216]

[quote name='Ed_Reed_Pick_Six' date='22 July 2009 - 06:13 AM' timestamp='1248257638' post='209041']
Harrison tougher than Lewis? Who was James Harrison before last season?
[/quote]
The same idiot that he was in 2008?

[MagicianCamille]

Harrison's not tough, he's an overtly violent thug who doesn't know what a whistle means.

I would have voted for Derrick Mason easily. Playing with one functioning arm because your team needs you, that is the definition of toughness in my mind, not attacking people senselessly like a crazed animal.