Toughest Player And Best Qb

[JEEPercreepermd]

[quote name='wayne' date='19 July 2009 - 01:03 AM' timestamp='1247979828' post='208194']
EdReedFTW , I'm not judging Palmer based on solely his wins/lost record which holds alot of weight by the way . Its a combination of wins/losses , talent surrounding him, and stats . I think thats the ultimate formula when rating a QB and you can throw the defense of the team their on in the formula as well maybe . Also, even with as great as those O-Lines has been for the Colts and the Pats, it still has been plenty of times where they have been required to show some pocket mobility , pocket awareness , what ever you want to call it and they prevail at these things. Palmer on the other hand is a sitting duck in the pocket , you can't have that in the NFL today!
[/quote]
Agreed, seems like Palmer's injuries are starting to pile up over the past few seasons and their offensive line isn't great

[darklight1216]

[quote name='Reddawn36' date='19 July 2009 - 02:00 AM' timestamp='1247983231' post='208198']
Darklight,

Would you say a QB who was part of a 2-14 team for 2 consecutive years, would you say thats the QB's fault, or the team as a whole
(oh yeah, said QB would be labeled as a bust by his drafted team)[/quote]

That's not enough information. I don't even know if that quarterback was a starter. I'm not sure if this if this answers your question, but I wouldn't blame a practice squad qb for his team's losses.
[quote]
the answer to your question

is 10 superbowl victories
(championships as in superbowl victories)
[/quote]
Technically...no. I'm not too picky though so you get brownie points.

[BmoreRav]

Stats are the only thing that darklight1216 can base her arguments on giving the fact she only started watching football last season, I very much doubt she has ever seen Palmer play (apologies if I'm wrong) but she did get to see a lot of Roethlisberger last season!

Digging up stats on players and then basing your opinions on [i]them[/i] instead of having your own opinion based on watching the player in action gets on my nerves.

IMO Palmer is easily the better and more talented [i]Quarterback[/i]!
He hasn't played to the best of his ability since the 05 season but that isn't all his fault!

But he definitely showed what he was capable of that year!

[darklight1216]

[quote name='berad' date='19 July 2009 - 10:04 AM' timestamp='1248012265' post='208225']
Quite frankly, that's [i]all[/i] you're basing your argument on, [b]winning[/b].

As I said, being a good QB is about much more than being on a winning team.[/quote]
And as I said (in that post you quoted), Palmer is a good quarterback.
[quote]
Palmer surpasses him in completion percentage, yards per game, TD-INT ratio, their QB ratings are very similar [i](Ben's is 89.4, Palmer's is 88.9)[/i], and they both are very good QBs. In my opinion, Palmer is better when healthy.[/quote]
All right then; you have your opinion, and I have mine.

[quote]
I have no love for Palmer but to lay all of the Bengals woes at his feet and place all of the Steelers' success on Roethlisberger's is both naive and incorrect.
[/quote]
I hate both of them, but to say that Palmer deserves none of the blame for his team's failures, and to deny Big Jen any of the glory for his success is both naive and incorrect.

>.< Ugh, there I go again. *Bashes head*
Never mind all that. Both of those losers (one literally, the other figuratively) will be eclipsed by Joe Flacco. Hopefully...

[quote name='BmoreRav' date='19 July 2009 - 01:37 PM' timestamp='1248025050' post='208264']
Stats are the only thing that darklight1216 can base her arguments on giving the fact she only started watching football last season, I very much doubt she has ever seen Palmer play (apologies if I'm wrong) but she did get to see a lot of Roethlisberger last season! [/quote]
I'm afraid that you are incorrect. I have seen Palmer play and I have seen Roethlisberger play in years other than 2008.
[quote]
Digging up stats on players and then basing your opinions on [i]them[/i] instead of having your own opinion based on watching the player in action gets on my nerves.

IMO Palmer is easily the better and more talented [i]Quarterback[/i]!
He hasn't played to the best of his ability since the 05 season but that isn't all his fault!

But he definitely showed what he was capable of that year!
[/quote]
If Palmer hasn't played exceptionally since 2005, why is he currently better? Why should those players who voted have chosen him over Big Beth if he has not been good, in your opinion, since 2005?
Not that I'm defending that guy or anything. >.<

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='BmoreRav' date='19 July 2009 - 01:37 PM' timestamp='1248025050' post='208264']

IMO Palmer is easily the better and more talented [i]Quarterback[/i]!
He hasn't played to the best of his ability since the 05 season but that isn't all his fault!

But he definitely showed what he was capable of that year!
[/quote]

yea he did great that year untill he gets injured in the beginning of his first playoff game.....do you know who else had a good year that year....Ben, and he also took home a ring

Ben takes more hits then palmer but he just gets up and wins superbowls

after palmer takes a hit he gets carted off the field to watch his backups lose game after game

maybe palmer is just brittle....but hey some people just arent cut out for sports

[BmoreRav]

[quote name='darklight1216' date='19 July 2009 - 06:40 PM' timestamp='1248025251' post='208266']
If Palmer hasn't played exceptionally since 2005, why is he currently better? Why should those players who voted have chosen him over Big Beth if he has not been good, in your opinion, since 2005?
Not that I'm defending that guy or anything. >.<
[/quote]

I never said Palmer should of been chosen over Roethlisberger, I would have been surprised if he had been because he's been on the sidelines, but I do think he is the better and more talented Quarterback but he has struggled since that knee injury he suffered in the 05 Playoffs and then last seasons elbow injury. I think he's been unlucky, if it wasn't for said knee injury in 05 I personally think he would have been in the discussion of the better QBs in the league! I think he's that good.

[BmoreRav]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='19 July 2009 - 07:03 PM' timestamp='1248026624' post='208270']
yea he did great that year untill he gets injured in the beginning of his first playoff game.....do you know who else had a good year that year....Ben, and he also took home a ring

Ben takes more hits then palmer but he just gets up and wins superbowls

after palmer takes a hit he gets carted off the field to watch his backups lose game after game

maybe palmer is just brittle....but hey some people just arent cut out for sports
[/quote]

They won that Superbowl game despite him. And who knows what the outcome of the Wild Card game would of been if Palmer didn't get injured?!

Just because Big Ben is more durable and less injury prone doesn't mean he's the better [i]Quarterback[/i]! At least not in my opinion.

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='BmoreRav' date='19 July 2009 - 02:15 PM' timestamp='1248027345' post='208275']
They won that Superbowl game despite him. And who knows what the outcome of the Wild Card game would of been if Palmer didn't get injured?!

Just because Big Ben is more durable and less injury prone doesn't mean he's the better [i]Quarterback[/i]! At least not in my opinion.
[/quote]

how do you win superbowls if everytime you take a hit your season could be over

if palmer was on the steelers he would break every bone in his body.....he could not get hit as much as ben and put up numbers even close to bens

the bengals have been waiting his entire career for palmer to "show his talent" and lead them to glory but something always happens......palmer cant get it done....he has never gotten it done and will never get it done

he is all stats no glory

[BmoreRav]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='19 July 2009 - 07:30 PM' timestamp='1248028228' post='208281']
how do you win superbowls if everytime you take a hit your season could be over

if palmer was on the steelers he would break every bone in his body.....he could not get hit as much as ben and put up numbers even close to bens

the bengals have been waiting his entire career for palmer to "show his talent" and lead them to glory but something always happens......palmer cant get it done....he has never gotten it done and will never get it done

he is all stats no glory
[/quote]

I think it's unfair to suggest he's [i]that[/i] injury prone considering his knee injury was career threatening and his elbow problem was a freak injury that put him out long term! Like I said he's been unlucky. If Big Ben had that knee injury in that 05 Playoff game his career would of probably gone the same way!!

It's all a matter of opinion, Big Ben easily is having the better career and is on a better team. But I personally don't think he's a better or more talented Quarterback! That is my only argument and I stand by it.

[berad]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='19 July 2009 - 12:48 PM' timestamp='1248022125' post='208249']
all good points but what im saying is if he cant stay on the field(his fault or not) than that takes away from his value to the team which in turn takes away from his value as a QB.....yes big ben had a bad year after his accident but he still played......and i dont excuse his bad play becase of his accident because his stupidity cost the team and thats part of the package....as is carsons extensive medical history
[/quote]

You have to recognize that there is a difference in the severity of the two, though. Ben Roethlisberger playing with a sore thumb or sustaining a concussion [i](he's had 3 already)[/i] is not the same as Palmer tearing an ACL or elbow tendons. Of course a QB has no value if he's wearing jeans on the sidelines but, when he is on the field, he is great.

[berad]

[quote name='darklight1216' date='19 July 2009 - 01:40 PM' timestamp='1248025251' post='208266']
I hate both of them, but to say that Palmer deserves none of the blame for his team's failures, and to deny Big Jen any of the glory for his success is both naive and incorrect.
[/quote]

I didn't say that. I said to place "all" of the failure/success, respectively. Football has always been, and will always be, a [b]team[/b] sport. I guess we'll agree to disagree? Both players have convincing arguments to their credit.

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='BmoreRav' date='19 July 2009 - 02:40 PM' timestamp='1248028827' post='208284']
I think it's unfair to suggest he's [i]that[/i] injury prone considering his knee injury was career threatening and his elbow problem was a freak injury that put him out long term! Like I said he's been unlucky. If Big Ben had that knee injury in that 05 Playoff game his career would of probably gone the same way!!

It's all a matter of opinion, Big Ben easily is having the better career and is on a better team. But I personally don't think he's a better or more talented Quarterback! That is my only argument and I stand by it.
[/quote]

i know he cant play once the injurys occur but the fact is he keeps getting injured....thats not good....now its not his fault, but the fact remains that if you are in the market for a QB you dont want one who is constantly injured...it detracts from his value......ben has had 3 great years stat wise and two rings out of 5

Palmer has had three great years and no rings out of 6

[berad]

To be fair, Carson has only been seriously injured twice. The ACL in the playoffs which he returned from by the beginning of the '06 season. Then the elbow last year, when he suffered and was forced to miss the majority of the season. Also, Palmer sat out his entire first year, he's really only had 5 seasons at the helm, just like Roethlisberger.

[BmoreRav]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='19 July 2009 - 07:52 PM' timestamp='1248029558' post='208288']
i know he cant play once the injurys occur but the fact is he keeps getting injured....thats not good....now its not his fault, but the fact remains that if you are in the market for a QB you dont want one who is constantly injured...it detracts from his value......ben has had 3 great years stat wise and two rings out of 5

Palmer has had three great years and no rings out of 6
[/quote]

I wouldn't say he keeps getting injured! Forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't it the only two injuries he's had? Apart from last season I don't think he's missed many games! But even if Palmer had been healthy all career and was playing lights out he still wouldn't have two rings at this point! Because as we all know it's a team sport and Ben has had and has a much better team than Carson.

Comparing rings doesn't really work when we're discussing who's the better QB!

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='berad' date='19 July 2009 - 02:58 PM' timestamp='1248029905' post='208290']
To be fair, Carson has only been seriously injured twice. The ACL in the playoffs which he returned from by the beginning of the '06 season. Then the elbow last year, when he suffered and was forced to miss the majority of the season. Also, Palmer sat out his entire first year, he's really only had 5 seasons at the helm, just like Roethlisberger.
[/quote]

so in five years of play he has had serious injury's twice both of which caused the destruction of the bengals seasons

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='BmoreRav' date='19 July 2009 - 03:04 PM' timestamp='1248030283' post='208292']
I wouldn't say he keeps getting injured! Forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't it the only two injuries he's had? Apart from last season I don't think he's missed many games! But even if Palmer had been healthy all career and was playing lights out he still wouldn't have two rings at this point! Because as we all know it's a team sport and Ben has had and has a much better team than Carson.

Comparing rings doesn't really work when we're discussing who's the better QB!
[/quote]

your right about the rings

but they still have the same amount of great years....and you could argue that carson had better wide receivers then ben did as well

[berad]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='19 July 2009 - 03:05 PM' timestamp='1248030325' post='208293']
so in five years of play he has had serious injury's twice both of which caused the destruction of the bengals seasons
[/quote]

He has been injured twice, yes. And without him, the Bengals lost, yes. That's one way to look at it but I fail to see your point. Roethlisberger has avoided injury more effectively and won more games than Palmer but that does not make him a better QB.

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='berad' date='19 July 2009 - 03:29 PM' timestamp='1248031783' post='208297']
He has been injured twice, yes. And without him, the Bengals lost, yes. That's one way to look at it but I fail to see your point. Roethlisberger has avoided injury more effectively and won more games than Palmer but that does not make him a better QB.
[/quote]

but it does make him more dependable

and combined with almost equal stats

Ben/Palmer

yds-14,974/15,630

TD-101/107

INT-69/67

COMP PCT-62.4/63.7

thats what makes him a better QB

[Reddawn36]

[quote name='darklight1216' date='19 July 2009 - 01:12 PM' timestamp='1248023551' post='208256']
That's not enough information. I don't even know if that quarterback was a starter. I'm not sure if this if this answers your question, but I wouldn't blame a practice squad qb for his team's losses.

[/quote]

Oh no, this QB is pretty well known by most of us... and any fan of the game

He was the first player selected in the supplemental draft by the said team, and he was either the starter or the 2nd string for this team

[BmoreRav]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='19 July 2009 - 09:17 PM' timestamp='1248034661' post='208300']
but it does make him more dependable

and combined with almost equal stats

Ben/Palmer

yds-14,974/15,630

TD-101/107

INT-69/67

COMP PCT-62.4/63.7

thats what makes him a better QB
[/quote]

But Ben has played 8 more Regular Season games than Carson so those stats can't be compared, even though Carson still has him covered in every category you posted.

I don't see how that post proves Ben is a better QB?

[Ravenskid2085]

Blahh Ray Lewis is soo much better than James Harrison.

[berad]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='19 July 2009 - 04:17 PM' timestamp='1248034661' post='208300']
but it does make him more dependable

and combined with almost equal stats

Ben/Palmer

yds-14,974/15,630
TD-101/107
INT-69/67
COMP PCT-62.4/63.7
thats what makes him a better QB
[/quote]

As someone else said, Ben's played more games so let's look at it on a per game basis.

Palmer - ~240 yds/game, 1.65 TDs/game (4.9% of his attempts), 1.03 INTs/game (3.1% of his attempts)

Roethlisberger - ~208 yds/game, 1.4 TDs/game (5.3% of his attempts), 0.96 INTs/game (3.6% of his attempts)

Also, Palmer averages more net yards for his team per pass attempt.

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='BmoreRav' date='19 July 2009 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1248036237' post='208304']
But Ben has played 8 more Regular Season games than Carson so those stats can't be compared, even though Carson still has him covered in every category you posted.

I don't see how that post proves Ben is a better QB?
[/quote]

who cares how many games they played

Attempts

BEN-1905

Palmer-2165

palmer threw the ball 260 more times and has almost identical stats

and add in the fact that palmer is injury prone and cant extend the play and doesnt have 18 4th quarter comebacks

with better receivers

the bengals lean on palmer more then the steelers lean on ben thus carson will have more yards, he will have more TD'S

But guess what he barely does.....thats what makes ben better

[berad]

Injury prone? Ughhhhhhh

[darklight1216]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='19 July 2009 - 03:05 PM' timestamp='1248030325' post='208293']
so in five years of play he has had serious injury's twice both of which caused the destruction of the bengals seasons
[/quote]
Torn ligament and tendon in 2008, broken nose in 2008, and his ACL and MCL in 2006.You could say that it all happened in five years of play... or you could say it happened in the last three years, it all depends on how you look at it...

[quote name='Reddawn36' date='19 July 2009 - 04:21 PM' timestamp='1248034881' post='208302']
Oh no, this QB is pretty well known by most of us... and any fan of the game

He was the first player selected in the supplemental draft by the said team, and he was either the starter or the 2nd string for this team
[/quote]
So can I assume he played a significant number of games during those two years?

Since I'm making a decision based on very little information, I'm going to go over the question again.

"Would you say a QB who was part of a 2-14 team for 2 consecutive years, would you say thats the QB's fault, or the team as a whole"

Okay, so you're not asking me whether I think the qb is, was, or will be good at some point; nor are you asking if I think that there are other qbs better than him. You simply want to know if it's entirely "the QB's fault" or if the "the team as a whole" (which also includes the qb) is to blame.

I would not place the blame exclusively upon his shoulders nor would I completely excuse the losses as having nothing to do with him. This is assuming that he was the primary starter. If, as a second string player, he didn't take many snaps during those two years, then my opinion would be different.

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='berad' date='19 July 2009 - 09:17 PM' timestamp='1248052638' post='208380']
Injury prone? Ughhhhhhh
[/quote]

i would say two bad injuries in three years is Injury prone wouldnt you

[berad]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='19 July 2009 - 09:37 PM' timestamp='1248053870' post='208388']
i would say two bad injuries in three years is Injury prone wouldnt you
[/quote]

Ughhhhh

You could make the same argument for Roethlisberger. He was battling stuff all this season and, seemingly, every season. Of course, his are more "hurts" than "injuries" if you get what I mean, but he gets banged up.

[darklight1216]

[quote name='berad' date='19 July 2009 - 09:47 PM' timestamp='1248054424' post='208393']
Ughhhhh

You could make the same argument for Roethlisberger. He was battling stuff all this season and, seemingly, every season. Of course, his are more "hurts" than "injuries" if you get what I mean, but he gets banged up.
[/quote]
You wouldn't need to make that arguement for him though. He wins when he has broken ribs or when he's healthy. For Palmer you have to say "but he was injured."

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='berad' date='19 July 2009 - 09:47 PM' timestamp='1248054424' post='208393']
Ughhhhh

You could make the same argument for Roethlisberger. He was battling stuff all this season and, seemingly, every season. Of course, his are more "hurts" than "injuries" if you get what I mean, but he gets banged up.
[/quote]

alot of players play with pain.....the key word here is play

ben is in pain but he still puts up good numbers most years....carson gets hit and its season over....its hard to lead your team to glory on the bench

[berad]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='19 July 2009 - 09:52 PM' timestamp='1248054748' post='208396']
alot of players play with pain.....the key word here is play

ben is in pain but he still puts up good numbers most years....[b]carson gets hit and its season over[/b]....its hard to lead your team to glory on the bench
[/quote]

Okay, you're overstating and obviously not interested in having a decent conversation. Ben Roethlisberger has only played [b][i][u]8[/u][/i][/b] more games than Carson Palmer, he is not Brett Favre by any means.