Toughest Player And Best Qb

[SteelersProphet]

Big Ben wins best QB over Palmer

James Harrison wins toughest player over Lewis in a close one

i expected Ben to win....but Harrison was a suprise



http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcnorth/0-3-172/Player-survey--Top-QB-and-toughest-player.html?username=afcnorth&archiveId=3&bId=0&entryId=172&sort=oldest

[darklight1216]

Harrison over Lewis; what were they smoking?

I can never agree with Ben being the best qb in any discussion. Though I will admit that Flacco, Palmer, and Brady/Anderson aren't better... yet.

Good find, thanks for posting.

[Fred Sanford]

I don't know how Derrick Mason doesn't win toughest player playing with that dangling noodle arm last year.

Yeah, Ray Lewis played that year with the shoulder harness, but Mason last year was just ridiculous. Suggs is super tough, too, he gets injuries like everyone else but never misses a game.

I think people are confusing "big, hard hitting, scary" with tough, hence the linebackers. You could be a physically weak dwarf and the toughest man on the planet. Toughness is heart, determination, not bicep. I would even rate Big Ben over Harrison, what with playing mere weeks after his head went through a windshield unhelmeted at 70 mph or whatever it was. People like to underrate Ben here, but we should all admit he makes our pass rush look pathetic at times with his moves.

-----

Big Ben's scrambling ability make him the most effective QB by far right now, but Palmer could easily retake that if he can stay healthy and the Bengals can get their heads out of their.....He is a better pure pocket QB than Roethlisberger.

Flacco, of course, has the potential to surpass both of them but isn't really close yet because of his limited field-reading ability.

Quinn is too much of a weak arm, big name, no accomplishment pretty boy. Anderson's good at times but pretty inconsistent.

[Reddawn36]

[quote name='Fred Sanford' date='18 July 2009 - 01:48 AM' timestamp='1247896114' post='208033']
I don't know how Derrick Mason doesn't win toughest player playing with that dangling noodle arm last year.

Yeah, Ray Lewis played that year with the shoulder harness, but Mason last year was just ridiculous. Suggs is super tough, too, he gets injuries like everyone else but never misses a game.

I think people are confusing "big, hard hitting, scary" with tough, hence the linebackers. You could be a physically weak dwarf and the toughest man on the planet. Toughness is heart, determination, not bicep. I would even rate Big Ben over Harrison, what with playing mere weeks after his head went through a windshield unhelmeted at 70 mph or whatever it was. People like to underrate Ben here, but we should all admit he makes our pass rush look pathetic at times with his moves.

-----

Big Ben's scrambling ability make him the most effective QB by far right now, but Palmer could easily retake that if he can stay healthy and the Bengals can get their heads out of their.....He is a better pure pocket QB than Roethlisberger.

Flacco, of course, has the potential to surpass both of them but isn't really close yet because of his limited field-reading ability.

Quinn is too much of a weak arm, big name, no accomplishment pretty boy. Anderson's good at times but pretty inconsistent.
[/quote]

was gonna say how the **** did they leave out derrick mason for that lol.... damn you pretty much took the words out of my mouth here lol

[Reddawn36]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='18 July 2009 - 12:01 AM' timestamp='1247889670' post='208025']
Big Ben wins best QB over Palmer

James Harrison wins toughest player over Lewis in a close one

i expected Ben to win....but Harrison was a suprise



http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcnorth/0-3-172/Player-survey--Top-QB-and-toughest-player.html?username=afcnorth&archiveId=3&bId=0&entryId=172&sort=oldest
[/quote]

yeah I understand ben having best QB there, but for the Harrison vote I don't understand, I'm not questioning his toughness, but you had suggs play in the AFCCG injured, Derrick Mason playing the end of the season with one arm, hell you even had Ben Roethlessberger (.... damn it gets to be a P.I.T.A to spell) play after his concussion .... of course I'm homer-ish here.... but Mason gets screwed out of another award or w/e

[plesiosaur]

It's just another popularity contest. How did Mason [i]not even make the list[/i]?!?!

[theFRANCHISE]

I like these player surveys; it's interesting to see what players in the same division think of their rivals.

With that said, it's a bit telling when players say they [i]wanted[/i] to vote for Hines Ward in the toughness category, but [i]didn't[/i] because they don't agree with how he plays the game...hmmm...

Granted, of course a division rival won't agree with his methods because Ward is a pain in their ***, but these players were told to be as honest as possible, and if a lot of them were willing to vote Flacco over Palmer (given Palmer's credentials), that's about as honest as it gets, really.

[jfc13]

I think it's surprising that Flacco got any votes. He had a great year, especially for a rookie, but I wouldn't expect him to be ranked as one of the "best" quarterbacks until he proves he can play well for a few years. I'm sure everyone sees the potential, but he's really not proven in the long run - so, I'm impressed that he got any votes this soon. But...maybe it's not so impressive since players weren't allowed to vote for themselves or teammates, so all those Steelers had to vote for someone...

I'm going to use that same logic to say that most Ravens voted for Harrison, while the Steelers split their votes between Ray and Suggs, giving Harrison the edge. [Yeah, I know players from other teams voted and other guys got votes, but I'm rationalizing here! ]

Actually, I'd like to know how the breakdown occured - which team's players voted for which other team's players.

[quote]I think people are confusing "big, hard hitting, scary" with tough, hence the linebackers...[/quote]
I agree, Fred Sanford.

[EdReedFTW]

I still cant believe people have forgotten just how good Carson Palmer is.

[darklight1216]

[quote name='EdReedFTW' date='18 July 2009 - 11:43 AM' timestamp='1247931826' post='208065']
I still cant believe people have forgotten just how good Carson Palmer is.
[/quote]
Going 0-4 in your last season and having a losing record for your career so far will often make you forgettable.

[Alexir]

[quote name='darklight1216' date='18 July 2009 - 11:58 AM' timestamp='1247932695' post='208071']
Going 0-4 in your last season and having a losing record for your career so far will often make you forgettable.
[/quote]

No, only a fool would underestimate Palmer as a QB. He has no O-Line and if they fix that this year we might be in trouble.

[berad]

[quote name='darklight1216' date='18 July 2009 - 11:58 AM' timestamp='1247932695' post='208071']
Going 0-4 in your last season and having a losing record for your career so far will often make you forgettable.
[/quote]

That's more a statement to the Bengals success than his. He is, when healthy, the best QB in the division and one of the best in the NFL.

Career stats: 15630 yds, 63.7% comp, 107 TDs to 67 INTs, 88.9 QB rating.

That's pretty damn impressive considering he did it in only 65 games, equivalent to about 4 seasons.

[jfc13]

I want to comment on a discussion being held at that site about Hines Ward's non-votes and since I don't belong to that site, you all will have to put up with them... the comment:

[quote]At least one person each in the locker rooms of the Browns, Bengals and Ravens considered voting for Steelers receiver Hines Ward in this category. But they couldn't bring themselves to do it, mostly because they disagreed with the way Ward plays the game.

So that would have given Ward at least 7 votes, possiblly up to 9 or more.

He easily could have won.[/quote]

First, Ward got 3 votes. This guy's calculation that 3 + 3 = 7 shows that he failed both math AND comprehension.

Second, being "considered" does NOT mean that they would have selected him. It just means that he was in their list when they were trying to make their decision. Those votes were "maybes".

Third, if those 3 [or more] guys HAD voted for Ward, who is to say that they didn't eventually vote for Harrison? Subtract those votes from Harrison and you have James Harrison = 7, Ray Lewis = 8, Hines Ward = 6. Lewis wins.

The point is, we don't know if they would have picked Ward if they didn't disapprove of his playing strategy and we don't know who they eventually DID pick. The Steelers fans should be happy it turned out the way it did, Harrison won.

However, as theFranchise said, the most telling thing to come from this survey is that at least one player from each team of this relatively small sampling of players doesn't like the way Ward plays the game.

Thanks for listening to my rant and sorry I couldn't tell it to the guy that I really wanted to tell it to.

[wayne]

I honestly feel Palmer is a bit overrated , especially after the major injury he suffered . Man has been playing in an offensive friendly system with two of the best WR's in the game and one of the best RB's at one point. Chris Henry could be a starter for most teams minus the off field problems . Put Palmer on a team like ours last year and he gets sacked twice as much as Flacco did . He has no skill to buy time and I can't say the same for QB's like Manning and Brady . We will see what Palmer does this year !

[darklight1216]

[quote name='berad' date='18 July 2009 - 12:04 PM' timestamp='1247933059' post='208073']
That's more a statement to the Bengals success than his.[/quote]
Lol, he IS a Bengal. But I guess it's ever other players fault.
[quote] He is, when healthy, the best QB in the division and one of the best in the NFL.

Career stats: 15630 yds, 63.7% comp, 107 TDs to 67 INTs, 88.9 QB rating.

That's pretty [edit]impressive considering he did it in only 65 games, equivalent to about 4 seasons.
[/quote]
Okay, well maybe I'll start Carson Palmer on my fantasy team... if he's healthy.
I think you forgot a couple of things about Palmer. Like the fact that he is 32-33 in those 65 games and that he has had only one winning season in his career. (Quick question: just how many qbs are you including in your "best in the nfl?" I could agree with that, if you stretch it to the top ten or fifteen.)

I hate to do this but...(All stats that I'm about to use, will apply only as of Ben's 60th game... which happens to include Palmer's last four [s]losses[/s] games)

By his 60th game, Ben Roethlisberger boasted a 92.52 quarterback rating.
All time qb rating leaders.
Steve Young – 96.81
Peyton Manning – 94.25
Kurt Warner – 93.52
Tom Brady – 92.91
Ben Roethlisberger – 92.52
(Brownie points to whoever can tell me how many championships have been won by these qbs.)

Carson Palmer certainly does have some nice passing yards, and that's good for him. However, the last quarterback to lead the league in passing yards and win a championship was Johnny Unitas back in 1959.
Yards may be the currency of fantasy leagues everywhere, but I challenge you to find a stat that has a higher correlation to [u]winning[/u] than yards [i]per attempt[/i].
The all time leaders in YPA are:
Otto Graham – 8.63 YPA
Sid Luckman – 8.42
Norm Van Brocklin – 8.16
Kurt Warner – 8.14
Ben Roethlisberger – 8.10

There are, in fact, only three active players in the top 15 ypa of all time. They are Warner, Roethlisberger, and Peyton Manning. (In that order, if I'm not mistaken... which I might be, but w/e. If I am, Prophet will come back and expose my error.)

Now I can admit when I'm wrong. Tell me why Carson Palmer is better than any quarterback on either list.

Palmer's 107-67 td/int is better than Ben's 90-56. Palmer does have a marginally higher differential which is always good. But by this time, as much as everyone wants to fault him for being a team with a good defense, Worthlessburger had become the second rookie qb to win a playoff game and had become the youngest qb to win a Super Bowl. Carson Palmer went to the Pro-bowl... but then again so did Ben.

Nevermind our division, the best quarterbacks in history have high qb ratings and high ypa. Ben is one of them; Carson is not.

Look what I've done! I've just defiled myself; now I have to vomit.

[berad]

[quote name='darklight1216' date='18 July 2009 - 02:20 PM' timestamp='1247941212' post='208098']
Okay, well maybe I'll start Carson Palmer on my fantasy team... if he's healthy.
I think you forgot a couple of things about Palmer. Like the fact that he is 32-33 in those 65 games and that he has had only one winning season in his career. (Quick question: just how many qbs are you including in your "best in the nfl?" I could agree with that, if you stretch it to the top ten or fifteen.)

I hate to do this but...(All stats that I'm about to use, will apply only as of Ben's 60th game... which happens to include Palmer's last four [s]losses[/s] games)

By his 60th game, Ben Roethlisberger boasted a 92.52 quarterback rating.
All time qb rating leaders.
Steve Young – 96.81
Peyton Manning – 94.25
Kurt Warner – 93.52
Tom Brady – 92.91
Ben Roethlisberger – 92.52
(Brownie points to whoever can tell me how many championships have been won by these qbs.)

Carson Palmer certainly does have some nice passing yards, and that's good for him. However, the last quarterback to lead the league in passing yards and win a championship was Johnny Unitas back in 1959.
Yards may be the currency of fantasy leagues everywhere, but I challenge you to find a stat that has a higher correlation to [u]winning[/u] than yards [i]per attempt[/i].
The all time leaders in YPA are:
Otto Graham – 8.63 YPA
Sid Luckman – 8.42
Norm Van Brocklin – 8.16
Kurt Warner – 8.14
Ben Roethlisberger – 8.10

There are, in fact, only three active players in the top 15 ypa of all time. They are Warner, Roethlisberger, and Peyton Manning. (In that order, if I'm not mistaken... which I might be, but w/e. If I am, Prophet will come back and expose my error.)

Now I can admit when I'm wrong. Tell me why Carson Palmer is better than any quarterback on either list.

Palmer's 107-67 td/int is better than Ben's 90-56. Palmer does have a marginally higher differential which is always good. But by this time, as much as everyone wants to fault him for being a team with a good defense, Worthlessburger had become the second rookie qb to win a playoff game and had become the youngest qb to win a Super Bowl. Carson Palmer went to the Pro-bowl... but then again so did Ben.

Nevermind our division, the best quarterbacks in history have high qb ratings and high ypa. Ben is one of them; Carson is not.

Look what I've done! I've just defiled myself; now I have to vomit.
[/quote]

Okay, get this. The [b]BENGALS[/b] went 32-33 in those 65 games. The [b]BENGALS[/b] have only had 1 winning season in his career. It's not fair to attach that to Palmer when he has been an excellent QB for them [i](again, when healthy)[/i]. If you base a QB's worth on winning percentage then, yeah, how can I argue against Rothlisberger; but being a good QB means much more than being on a winning team.

Also, you can't compare modern QBs to the guys that played in the '40s, '50s, and '60s. They're two completely different games, man. Sid Luckman played for 12 years, and Palmer has [b]already[/b] eclipsed his passing yardage totals. And, by the way, Tony Romo is actually leading the active players in ypa with 8.1; Ben's is only 7.9 [i](I don't know if you meant for his first 60 games)[/i]. Palmer's is 7.2, not some horrible number..

Again, if all you base a QB's stature by is winning, Rothlisberger takes the cake, but Palmer beats him in almost every other category. Besides, you were missing my whole point. Carson Palmer has not been healthy for a while, those two ProBowl years were not a fluke.

[TheRavenouseD2008]

well I will say Ben is tough to some extent , however 1 major hit it takes him 2 Qs to regain composure , and to be honest he needs to be tough with the tissue paper line making him seem like a pi

[EdReedFTW]

[quote name='wayne' date='18 July 2009 - 01:47 PM' timestamp='1247939248' post='208094']
I honestly feel Palmer is a bit overrated , especially after the major injury he suffered . Man has been playing in an offensive friendly system with two of the best WR's in the game and one of the best RB's at one point. Chris Henry could be a starter for most teams minus the off field problems . Put Palmer on a team like ours last year and he gets sacked twice as much as Flacco did . He has no skill to buy time and I can't say the same for QB's like Manning and Brady . We will see what Palmer does this year !
[/quote]

This is in response to both wayne and darklight.

To start, the winning=good argument. Drew Brees is acknowledged to have had one of the best seasons by a quarterback in NFL history by almost breaking Dan Marino's passing record. Yet his team only went 8-8. Should his accomplishment be ignored because his teams sucked? No. And speaking of Dan Marino, what about his career. The man is acknowledged to be one of the best qb's in history but he was never able to win the big game, even though his stats and individual performance what exemplary for many years. That doesnt make him any less of a quarter back. So basically wins=/=one person's skill. It still is a team sport.

There is more i was going to say about the difference in o lines of the bengals versus the olines of the pats and colt but im tired. Simply ill say, bengals line has sucked forever and the pats and colts have had excellent pass blocking olines.

[mhead66]

[quote name='Fred Sanford' date='18 July 2009 - 01:48 AM' timestamp='1247896114' post='208033']
I don't know how Derrick Mason doesn't win toughest player playing with that dangling noodle arm last year.

Yeah, Ray Lewis played that year with the shoulder harness, but Mason last year was just ridiculous. Suggs is super tough, too, he gets injuries like everyone else but never misses a game.

I think people are confusing "big, hard hitting, scary" with tough, hence the linebackers. You could be a physically weak dwarf and the toughest man on the planet. [b]Toughness is heart, determination, not bicep.[/b] I would even rate Big Ben over Harrison, what with playing mere weeks after his head went through a windshield unhelmeted at 70 mph or whatever it was. People like to underrate Ben here, but we should all admit he makes our pass rush look pathetic at times with his moves.

[/quote]

I agree with your definition of toughness. What's interesting is that not one Bengal got one single vote for being tough...

Says a lot.

[darklight1216]

[quote name='berad' date='18 July 2009 - 06:52 PM' timestamp='1247957525' post='208137']
Okay, get this. The [b]BENGALS[/b] went 32-33 in those 65 games. The [b]BENGALS[/b] have only had 1 winning season in his career. It's not fair to attach that to Palmer when he has been an excellent QB for them [i](again, when healthy)[/i]. [/quote]
Sure it's fair; Carson Palmer is a [b]BENGAL[/b]. The Bengals (of which he is one) are, quite frankly, losers.
[quote]
If you base a QB's worth on winning percentage then, yeah, how can I argue against Rothlisberger; but being a good QB means much more than being on a winning team.[/quote]
Ben does have good some good stats and he wins. Carson Palmer has good stats and... 2 Pro-Bowls
[quote]
Also, you can't compare modern QBs to the guys that played in the '40s, '50s, and '60s. They're two completely different games, man. Sid Luckman played for 12 years, and Palmer has [b]already[/b] eclipsed his passing yardage totals. And, by the way, Tony Romo is actually leading the active players in ypa with 8.1; Ben's is only 7.9 [i](I don't know if you meant for his first 60 games)[/i]. Palmer's is 7.2, not some horrible number..[/quote]
It was an all time list and it included qbs of all time. In actuality it should be much easier for qbs of today to outdo their predecessors since the game has become more favorable to the offensive side of the ball and since there are more games played. (Yeah, as I said, my stats were from Ben's first sixty games...it's closer to Palmer's number of games.)
[quote]
Again, if all you base a QB's stature by is winning Rothlisberger takes the cake, but Palmer beats him in almost every other category.[/quote]
Stats > wins?
If I was just basing my analysis on winning, then I would have just listed all of the Super Bowl winners. Heck, I would have put Trent Dilfer if I was strictly talking about Super Bowl winners. I listed the qbs who have some phenomenal stats and it just so happens that those stats have a direct correlation to winning championships.
[quote]Besides, you were missing my whole point. Carson Palmer has not been healthy for a while, those two ProBowl years were not a fluke.
[/quote]
I'm not saying that Palmer isn't Pro-Bowl worthy... when he's healthy, when the Bengals are doing well, and when all the planets are aligned. I'm not saying that he isn't a good quarterback;he is good, quite good. Ben is just better.

That said, I'm done defending Ben Roethlisberger because quite frankly I don't like him and he isn't worth my time.

[wayne]

EdReedFTW , I'm not judging Palmer based on solely his wins/lost record which holds alot of weight by the way . Its a combination of wins/losses , talent surrounding him, and stats . I think thats the ultimate formula when rating a QB and you can throw the defense of the team their on in the formula as well maybe . Also, even with as great as those O-Lines has been for the Colts and the Pats, it still has been plenty of times where they have been required to show some pocket mobility , pocket awareness , what ever you want to call it and they prevail at these things. Palmer on the other hand is a sitting duck in the pocket , you can't have that in the NFL today!

[darklight1216]

[quote name='EdReedFTW' date='18 July 2009 - 10:23 PM' timestamp='1247970235' post='208163']
This is in response to both wayne and darklight.

To start, the winning=good argument. Drew Brees is acknowledged to have had one of the best seasons by a quarterback in NFL history by almost breaking Dan Marino's passing record. Yet his team only went 8-8. Should his accomplishment be ignored because his teams sucked? No.[/quote]
How ironic is it that Brees's team won twice as many games as Palmer's? I'm not ignoring Carson's talent. He's just not the best; neither is Brees. Although Drew Brees is obviously the best in [i]his[/i] division.
[quote]And speaking of Dan Marino, what about his career. The man is acknowledged to be one of the best qb's in history but he was never able to win the big game, even though his stats and individual performance what exemplary for many years. That doesnt make him any less of a quarter back. So basically wins=/=one person's skill. It still is a team sport. [/quote]
Okay, but Palmer is not Marino. Marino had the record for the third most wins by a starting quarterback (147), won 8 playoff games, and made it to AFC Championships. Palmer is not anywhere near being one of the greatest of all time and that does make him less of a quarterback than those who are the greatest.

[quote]
There is more i was going to say about the difference in o lines of the bengals versus the olines of the pats and colt but im tired. Simply ill say, bengals line has sucked forever and the pats and colts have had excellent pass blocking olines.
[/quote]
So Palmer can't be blamed for having a losing record, but Brady and Manning can be faulted for having good o-linemen?

[Reddawn36]

Darklight,

Would you say a QB who was part of a 2-14 team for 2 consecutive years, would you say thats the QB's fault, or the team as a whole
(oh yeah, said QB would be labeled as a bust by his drafted team)

the answer to your question

is 10 superbowl victories
(championships as in superbowl victories)

[BloodRaven]

Correct me if Im wrong but wasn't Palmer was supposed to have reconstructive surgery on his arm but chose to skip it?

And all the reports about his weakening arm strength?

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='darklight1216' date='19 July 2009 - 12:47 AM' timestamp='1247978846' post='208192']
I'm done defending Ben Roethlisberger because quite frankly I don't like him and he isn't worth my time.
[/quote]

awww but you were doing so well

[berad]

[quote name='darklight1216' date='19 July 2009 - 12:47 AM' timestamp='1247978846' post='208192']
If I was just basing my analysis on winning, then I would have just listed all of the Super Bowl winners. Heck, I would have put Trent Dilfer if I was strictly talking about Super Bowl winners. I listed the qbs who have some phenomenal stats and it just so happens that those stats have a direct correlation to winning championships.
[/quote]

Quite frankly, that's [i]all[/i] you're basing your argument on, [b]winning[/b].

As I said, being a good QB is about much more than being on a winning team.

Palmer surpasses him in completion percentage, yards per game, TD-INT ratio, their QB ratings are very similar [i](Ben's is 89.4, Palmer's is 88.9)[/i], and they both are very good QBs. In my opinion, Palmer is better when healthy.

I have no love for Palmer but to lay all of the Bengals woes at his feet and place all of the Steelers' success on Roethlisberger's is both naive and incorrect.

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='berad' date='19 July 2009 - 10:04 AM' timestamp='1248012265' post='208225']
Quite frankly, that's [i]all[/i] you're basing your argument on, [b]winning[/b].

As I said, being a good QB is about much more than being on a winning team.

Palmer surpasses him in completion percentage, yards per game, TD-INT ratio, their QB ratings are very similar [i](Ben's is 89.4, Palmer's is 88.9)[/i], and they both are very good QBs. In my opinion, Palmer is better when healthy.

I have no love for Palmer but to lay all of the Bengals woes at his feet and place all of the Steelers' success on Roethlisberger's is both naive and incorrect.
[/quote]

this when healthy arguement is crazy.....if he cant stay healthy that factors in to whos better

ben gets sacked 40+ times a year and he still plays well.....if palmers numbers suffer because he cant take hits he should play in a different division

we play full contact here in the north....maybe he should go play flag football with the NFC west

[jfc13]

Stats are linear and don't take into consideration many things. A quarterback can't have good stats if he doesn't have someone that can catch the ball or run after the catch. He can't have good stats if he doesn't have a good offensive line. He can't have wins if his defense is horrible. There are too many things that affect stats.

I don't know stats like the rest of you, but whenever someone "proves" their point with dry stats, I take it with a grain of salt. It's like when a Steeler fan uses the argument that ANY player on their team is better than any player on another team because the [i]organization[/i] has 6 rings. ::eyeroll::

As for this particular discussion, you have to also consider the defenses the quarterbacks played against. The Bengals and Browns have to play the Steeler and Ravens defenses 1/4 of their schedule. Pretty daunting.

[berad]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' date='19 July 2009 - 10:13 AM' timestamp='1248012799' post='208227']
this when healthy arguement is crazy.....if he cant stay healthy that factors in to whos better

ben gets sacked 40+ times a year and he still plays well.....if palmers numbers suffer because he cant take hits he should play in a different division

we play full contact here in the north....maybe he should go play flag football with the NFC west
[/quote]

Are you saying he's not tough enough? Being [i]hurt[/i] and being [i]injured[/i] are two different things. Palmer has only missed starts when he has been [i]injured[/i]. He had 51 consecutive starts before this season forced him to sit down. Palmer came back and had a great season after he tore his ACL. We all know how it happened, but Palmer got through it and returned like his old self. This year, he was struggling with a partially torn elbow ligament and tendon but played as long as he could. In March he said he was back to "100%" which is scary, considering how good he is.

Ben Roethlisberger didn't hold up too well after he put his head through a windshield, either. Completion percentage below 60%, 18/23 TD/INT ratio, QB rating of 75.4..

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='berad' date='19 July 2009 - 10:28 AM' timestamp='1248013705' post='208231']
Are you saying he's not tough enough? Being [i]hurt[/i] and being [i]injured[/i] are two different things. Palmer has only missed starts when he has been [i]injured[/i]. He had 51 consecutive starts before this season forced him to sit down. Palmer came back and had a great season after he tore his ACL. We all know how it happened, but Palmer got through it and returned like his old self. This year, he was struggling with a partially torn elbow ligament and tendon but played as long as he could. In March he said he was back to "100%" which is scary, considering how good he is.

Ben Roethlisberger didn't hold up too well after he put his head through a windshield, either. Completion percentage below 60%, 18/23 TD/INT ratio, QB rating of 75.4..
[/quote]

all good points but what im saying is if he cant stay on the field(his fault or not) than that takes away from his value to the team which in turn takes away from his value as a QB.....yes big ben had a bad year after his accident but he still played......and i dont excuse his bad play becase of his accident because his stupidity cost the team and thats part of the package....as is carsons extensive medical history