Draft And Corners

[ravenwildman]

[size=3]I like Darius Butler of Connecticut, watchung the draft combine he seemed to have great quickness and an energy about him that he could be developed to fit any team, (just my opinion), I think he is our best shot at doing a "Flacco" type rookie draft that we need in our secondary.

What do you think? Will Ozzie Draft pick corners or FA...(I don't see him FA a corner too much $$)[/size]

[baltiMORE RAVENS]

[quote name='ravenwildman' post='156990' date='Feb 23 2009, 07:12 PM'][size=3]I like Darius Butler of Connecticut, watchung the draft combine he seemed to have great quickness and an energy about him that he could be developed to fit any team, (just my opinion), I think he is our best shot at doing a "Flacco" type rookie draft that we need in our secondary.

What do you think? Will Ozzie Draft pick corners or FA...(I don't see him FA a corner too much $$)[/size][/quote]

I think you saw Deon Butler the WR from Penn St. because the corners have not performed at the combine yet.

Darius Butler and the rest of the corners will workout tomorrow. They have been measured though and some of you may be surprised. Alphonso Smith 5'9 193, D.J. Moore 5'9 192, Vontae Davis 5'11 203. I'm interested in hearing how everyone feels about A. Smith now.

[RoflDogs]

[quote name='baltiMORE RAVENS' post='157009' date='Feb 23 2009, 08:15 PM']I think you saw Deon Butler the WR from Penn St. because the corners have not performed at the combine yet.

Darius Butler and the rest of the corners will workout tomorrow. They have been measured though and some of you may be surprised. Alphonso Smith 5'9 193, D.J. Moore 5'9 192, Vontae Davis 5'11 203. I'm interested in hearing how everyone feels about A. Smith now.[/quote]

First of all, A. Smith was listed at 5'8 and 3/4 at the senior bowl, so I knew that bout him for a while now (everybody did even before the senior bowl)
Alphonso Smith is still a very talented ball-hawk corner

I did not know, however, that Dj Moore was 5'9, but I am assuming that he is 5'9 and then some.
Height does not matter much for the CB position, Its all about hips and feet and use of arms and hands.
DJ Moore is a very talented CB also, I would be happy if we got either A.Smith or DJ

EDIT: I completely overlooked the weight, bad on my part, I thought I saw Alphonso at 185 at the Senior bowl??
He must be working out a bunch, even though he has good muscle tone for a body his size

[baltiMORE RAVENS]

[quote name='RoflDogs' post='157028' date='Feb 23 2009, 09:24 PM']First of all, A. Smith was listed at 5'8 and 3/4 at the senior bowl, so I knew that bout him for a while now (everybody did even before the senior bowl)
Alphonso Smith is still a very talented ball-hawk corner

I did not know, however, that Dj Moore was 5'9, but I am assuming that he is 5'9 and then some.
Height does not matter much for the CB position, Its all about hips and feet and use of arms and hands.
DJ Moore is a very talented CB also, I would be happy if we got either A.Smith or DJ

EDIT: I completely overlooked the weight, bad on my part, I thought I saw Alphonso at 185 at the Senior bowl??
He must be working out a bunch, even though he has good muscle tone for a body his size[/quote]

What is with the attitude?

I know that height does not matter for the CB position, but you cannot deny the multiple discussions on this board about needing a tall corner and all that garbage. That is why I posted this. I only put A. Smith's height and weight as a reference to D.J. Moore and Vontae Davis to show that there is not much difference between them. Obviously not every prospect played in the Senior Bowl, so it is nice to have the combine measurements and results.

[T-Sizzle55]

[quote name='baltiMORE RAVENS' post='157037' date='Feb 23 2009, 09:43 PM']What is with the attitude?

I know that height does not matter for the CB position, but you cannot deny the multiple discussions on this board about needing a tall corner and all that garbage. That is why I posted this. I only put A. Smith's height and weight as a reference to D.J. Moore and Vontae Davis to show that there is not much difference between them. Obviously not every prospect played in the Senior Bowl, so it is nice to have the combine measurements and results.[/quote]

We could trade up to get Vontae Davis. We had tons of picks last year and they're all on track to be from good to great. We have a lot of depth, so I say giving up a draft pick or 2 to get a guy we really want and who will be with us for years is a good option.

It might be better to pick up 2 CBs in FA, then we can get the WR that everyone wants in the first round, the TE Ozzie wants in the 2nd, a DE/OLB our new DC needs to get Ben-Gay on the ground in the 3rd round, and then leave it up to who our scouts love.

Free Agents: CB Phillip Buchanon, CB Karl Paymah
Draft Picks: 1-WR DHB, 2-TE Chase Coffman, 3-DE Jarron Gilbert

[ravenwildman]

[quote name='baltiMORE RAVENS' post='157009' date='Feb 23 2009, 08:15 PM']I think you saw Deon Butler the WR from Penn St. because the corners have not performed at the combine yet.

Darius Butler and the rest of the corners will workout tomorrow. They have been measured though and some of you may be surprised. Alphonso Smith 5'9 193, D.J. Moore 5'9 192, Vontae Davis 5'11 203. I'm interested in hearing how everyone feels about A. Smith now.[/quote]

Using the way-back-machine (DVR) lol ...your right sorry , It was Deon Butler. There is so much at the combine and I am trying to Fast Forward to possible drafts for us...My bad...will radar him today though and A. Smith..(I still like Deon Butker though as a good WR, lol)

[wspencer]

darius butler is competing today and is looking solid. mayock moved darius up on his top CB list this week

[FlaccosFlock]

Not that 40 times are that important, but I was a little disappointed that Darius ran in the 4.4 range and not the 4.3 range. It's not that big of a deal but it shocked me.

[RoflDogs]

40 times are overrated IMO
Darius Butler in the third round would be a total steal

[RavensIQ]

[quote name='FlaccosFlock' post='157164' date='Feb 24 2009, 01:29 PM']Not that 40 times are that important, but I was a little disappointed that Darius ran in the 4.4 range and not the 4.3 range. It's not that big of a deal but it shocked me.[/quote]


Don't kid yourself Flacc. 40 times are very important. A good forty time can determine whether you're a 1st round prospect or a 3rd, 4th, 5th round prospect.

And there are game time implications as well. If 2 cornerbacks with = skill, 1 runs a 4.3 the other runs a 4.8...who's the one more than likely going to start?

The combine is just a measuring stick for scouts. They know pretty much everything they need to know about the prospects they're eying b4 hand, the combine just serves as a confirmation type of tool when comparing players.

People that throw out the height doesn't matter, speed doesn't matter, size, strength doesn't matter are just saying that bcuz it's cliche. In reality it DOES matter... A LOT. It's not the deciding factor but it does go along way. So don't let them confuse you. After all, the combine is a big deal for a reason...It's not like they have it just to keep busy and kill time until April comes round. Speed tests, strength tests, intellect tests, agility, drills, ect..all serve their purpose.

[Numatic]

the most important things are size, speed, smarts. you have that you can learn the rest like the old saying says you cant coach speed or stupid for that matter. well also work ethic. ability to jump could take out the size factor

[shaikh015]

[quote name='ravenwildman' post='156990' date='Feb 23 2009, 07:12 PM'][size=3]I like Darius Butler of Connecticut, watchung the draft combine he seemed to have great quickness and an energy about him that he could be developed to fit any team, (just my opinion), I think he is our best shot at doing a "Flacco" type rookie draft that we need in our secondary.

What do you think? Will Ozzie Draft pick corners or FA...(I don't see him FA a corner too much $$)[/size][/quote]
Looks good to me..Do you think he will still be there in the second round?

[T-Sizzle55]

[quote name='ravenwildman' post='156990' date='Feb 23 2009, 07:12 PM'][size=3]I like Darius Butler of Connecticut, watchung the draft combine he seemed to have great quickness and an energy about him that he could be developed to fit any team, (just my opinion), I think he is our best shot at doing a "Flacco" type rookie draft that we need in our secondary.

What do you think? Will Ozzie Draft pick corners or FA...(I don't see him FA a corner too much $$)[/size][/quote]

Darius Butler is a good prospect. Very quick has great feet and apparently he's Willis McGahee's cousin. He can return kicks and punts has great ball skills and even played on offense. He's another small CB. I wasn't impressed with his tackling ability. He misses tackles and needs to wrap up more. When he hits he doesn't explode though and I don't think he has the strength to force a lot of fumbles. I like Chris Clemons, and David Bruton who are fast safeties and Jairus Byrd who is a strong tweener (CB/S).

[RoflDogs]

[quote name='RavensIQ' post='157239' date='Feb 24 2009, 06:06 PM']Don't kid yourself Flacc. 40 times are very important. A good forty time can determine whether you're a 1st round prospect or a 3rd, 4th, 5th round prospect.

And there are game time implications as well. If 2 cornerbacks with = skill, 1 runs a 4.3 the other runs a 4.8...who's the one more than likely going to start?

The combine is just a measuring stick for scouts. They know pretty much everything they need to know about the prospects they're eying b4 hand, the combine just serves as a confirmation type of tool when comparing players.

People that throw out the height doesn't matter, speed doesn't matter, size, strength doesn't matter are just saying that bcuz it's cliche. In reality it DOES matter... A LOT. It's not the deciding factor but it does go along way. So don't let them confuse you. After all, the combine is a big deal for a reason...It's not like they have it just to keep busy and kill time until April comes round. Speed tests, strength tests, intellect tests, agility, drills, ect..all serve their purpose.[/quote]


Jerry Rice ran a 4.6 and Charles Rogers ran like a 4.28 (this is just relative)
who do you think is better?

Brandon Flowers ran a 4.5 40 and proved that he is the best CB out of the rookie class last year

Today, Malcolm Jenkins ran a 4.5 forty (unofficially to boot) and do you think it really matters?
He is still an excellent football player

[FlaccosFlock]

[quote name='RavensIQ' post='157239' date='Feb 24 2009, 06:06 PM']Don't kid yourself Flacc. 40 times are very important. A good forty time can determine whether you're a 1st round prospect or a 3rd, 4th, 5th round prospect.

And there are game time implications as well. If 2 cornerbacks with = skill, 1 runs a 4.3 the other runs a 4.8...who's the one more than likely going to start?

The combine is just a measuring stick for scouts. They know pretty much everything they need to know about the prospects they're eying b4 hand, the combine just serves as a confirmation type of tool when comparing players.

People that throw out the height doesn't matter, speed doesn't matter, size, strength doesn't matter are just saying that bcuz it's cliche. In reality it DOES matter... A LOT. It's not the deciding factor but it does go along way. So don't let them confuse you. After all, the combine is a big deal for a reason...It's not like they have it just to keep busy and kill time until April comes round. Speed tests, strength tests, intellect tests, agility, drills, ect..all serve their purpose.[/quote]

When I was talking about forties I was simply saying that they don't necessarily mean the difference in how great the player will be. I like Darius Butler since I am a UCONN football and basketball fan so I know what he was capable of. I understand what you are saying, but I wasn't talking about draft status and money.

[quote name='RoflDogs' post='157268' date='Feb 24 2009, 07:19 PM']Jerry Rice ran a 4.6 and Charles Rogers ran like a 4.28 (this is just relative)
who do you think is better?

Brandon Flowers ran a 4.5 40 and proved that he is the best CB out of the rookie class last year

Today, Malcolm Jenkins ran a 4.5 forty (unofficially to boot) and do you think it really matters?
He is still an excellent football player[/quote]

Good point RoflDogs. It looks like you understood what I was trying say. I think I should have went into more depth. Sorry for the confusion that I caused RavensIQ.

[RavensIQ]

[quote name='RoflDogs' post='157268' date='Feb 24 2009, 07:19 PM']Jerry Rice ran a 4.6 and Charles Rogers ran like a 4.28 (this is just relative)
who do you think is better?

Brandon Flowers ran a 4.5 40 and proved that he is the best CB out of the rookie class last year

Today, Malcolm Jenkins ran a 4.5 forty (unofficially to boot) and do you think it really matters?
He is still an excellent football player[/quote]


Are you saying Charles Rogers is as good as Jerry Rice? I'll just assume that's a no. Ok, so what point are you trying to make?

If you're going to make an example out of my example at least be somewhere in the ball park. I said if 2 players with [b]equal skill[/b] ran the forty, 1 runs a 4.3 the other runs a 4.8, who is more than likely going to start?

I didn't say compare 1 great player to 1 bum player.

Dominque Rodgers Cromartie ran a 4.2 something. He's an excellent player. Malcolm Jenkins ran a 4.5 forty. He's an excellent player. Who's more then likely going to start if it came down to it? The faster of the 2 or the slower of the 2?

I'll give you a hint...use logic.

You thought you were proving a point....but you weren't.

Regardless of who starts, the forty time is all about where the player could potentially get drafted. If a GM and his staff are hung between 2 players and one of them is fast and the other is slow, hmmm I wonder...Forty times don't make the player but it could make the draft. That's the whole point of the combine.

I'll give you a prime example.

Michael Crabtree is projected to go 4th overall to the Seattle Seahawks. He hasn't run his 40 time yet. Now if he elects to run it sometime between now and draft day and he runs a 5.1...do you think he's still going 4th overall? Dramatic example but it still proves my point.


Same with Kenny Britt and DHB. Both were projected 2nd round prospects. Britt ran a low 4.5 forty but DHB's high 4.2 forty might be just enough to allow him to creep up into the 1st and be selected higher over Britt.

Relevancy, learn how to use it

[ZIBBY28]

Ths is just a general opinion that doesnt exactly apply to this forum, but here it goes: I've been reading a lot on here lately with everything going on about the draft and FA, and numerous times i've seen people say that we need to part ways with certain players, and not go after certain free agents because of age. I'm not taking away the importance of the draft and I understand when it comes to players 33, 34, and so on, but i feel like if a solid corner is out there at the age of 30, it wouldnt be a bad idea to go after them IMO.. i feel this way because the future is now. Im not arguing that we dont need to go after corners in the draft, but the way the business of the nfl works, if a player is signed to a 3 year deal after being drafted and once they start become a solid player, a team parts ways with him because of the cap. My point is, its alright to sign someone who is 30 and pay them top dollar if they'll make an impact on this team. If we can get 3 years out of him, great. Three years is a long time in the NFL and i know its a building process with rookies to learn the system they're in, but plugging veterans in at certain positions is what makes teams great. You don't have to be the youngest team to win games, and its not always about next year, two years from now, three years from now, etc. We made a great run last year, and if we lose some of our in-house free agents, i'd like to see the ravens sign some veterans for the right price and go after another super bowl every year, not just look to the future and be satisified with .500 seasons in the mean time.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='RavensIQ' post='157352' date='Feb 24 2009, 11:54 PM']Are you saying Charles Rogers is as good as Jerry Rice? I'll just assume that's a no. Ok, so what point are you trying to make?

If you're going to make an example out of my example at least be somewhere in the ball park. I said if 2 players with [b]equal skill[/b] ran the forty, 1 runs a 4.3 the other runs a 4.8, who is more than likely going to start?

I didn't say compare 1 great player to 1 bum player.

[b]Dominque Rodgers Cromartie ran a 4.2 something. He's an excellent player. Malcolm Jenkins ran a 4.5 forty. He's an excellent player. Who's more then likely going to start if it came down to it? The faster of the 2 or the slower of the 2?[/b]

I'll give you a hint...use logic.

You thought you were proving a point....but you weren't.

Regardless of who starts, the forty time is all about where the player could potentially get drafted. If a GM and his staff are hung between 2 players and one of them is fast and the other is slow, hmmm I wonder...Forty times don't make the player but it could make the draft. That's the whole point of the combine.

I'll give you a prime example.

Michael Crabtree is projected to go 4th overall to the Seattle Seahawks. He hasn't run his 40 time yet. Now if he elects to run it sometime between now and draft day and he runs a 5.1...do you think he's still going 4th overall? Dramatic example but it still proves my point.


Same with Kenny Britt and DHB. Both were projected 2nd round prospects. Britt ran a low 4.5 forty but DHB's high 4.2 forty might be just enough to allow him to creep up into the 1st and be selected higher over Britt.

Relevancy, learn how to use it [/quote]


The faster player might look more attractive, however it will be the player that shows the better ablity to cover. You will allow the 2 of them to compete and the player that show the better ability to do his job will start. You don't just put both of them on a board and say look he runs faster then the other. Competition proves alot.

I agree with most of what you said. Speed does dictate draft status, however draft status doesn't dictate your production level or even greatness. The Kenny Birtt/DHB arugement is a fair one, however it won't be speed that determines eithers worth. It might put more money in DHB's pocket from the draft and put more pressure on him to produce early in his career.

Does speed matter? Yes. However it's quickness and on field speed that matters more. You rarely run 40 yards striaght without cuts, and turns, or noone in your face. So if you can translate your track speed into football speed then yes it matters. Most guys don't run the same speed on the field as they do off of it. IMO technique,passion,competiveness,heart and smarts means more then just speed. Speed will get you drafted early or open some peoples eyes about you, but at the end of the day you want football players not track stars.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='RavensIQ' post='157352' date='Feb 24 2009, 11:54 PM']Are you saying Charles Rogers is as good as Jerry Rice? I'll just assume that's a no. Ok, so what point are you trying to make?

If you're going to make an example out of my example at least be somewhere in the ball park. I said if 2 players with [b]equal skill[/b] ran the forty, 1 runs a 4.3 the other runs a 4.8, who is more than likely going to start?

I didn't say compare 1 great player to 1 bum player.

Dominque Rodgers Cromartie ran a 4.2 something. He's an excellent player. Malcolm Jenkins ran a 4.5 forty. He's an excellent player. Who's more then likely going to start if it came down to it? The faster of the 2 or the slower of the 2?

I'll give you a hint...use logic.

You thought you were proving a point....but you weren't.

Regardless of who starts, the forty time is all about where the player could potentially get drafted. If a GM and his staff are hung between 2 players and one of them is fast and the other is slow, hmmm I wonder...Forty times don't make the player but it could make the draft. That's the whole point of the combine.

I'll give you a prime example.

[i][b]Michael Crabtree is projected to go 4th overall to the Seattle Seahawks. He hasn't run his 40 time yet. Now if he elects to run it sometime between now and draft day and he runs a 5.1...do you think he's still going 4th overall? Dramatic example but it still proves my point.[/b][i][/i][/i]


Same with Kenny Britt and DHB. Both were projected 2nd round prospects. Britt ran a low 4.5 forty but DHB's high 4.2 forty might be just enough to allow him to creep up into the 1st and be selected higher over Britt.

Relevancy, learn how to use it [/quote]


I think that example is exactly why the 40 yard dash is overrated. I'm not saying you are wrong because he will slip if he runs a poor 40, however why should his off-field speed matter. He proved his worth on the field for the last 2 seasons, and when he needed to he ran away from defenders. Now because if 40 time doesn't match the chart that some scout has on his wall you allow a potential great player slip thur your hands. Then by the same token a guy like Troy Williamson gets draft a round maybe 2 rounds above where she should have went because of his 40 time and not his production level in college.

I'm just glad our decision makers don't seem to overvalue the combine.

[FlaccosFlock]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' post='157426' date='Feb 25 2009, 10:16 AM']The faster player might look more attractive, however it will be the player that shows the better ablity to cover. You will allow the 2 of them to compete and the player that show the better ability to do his job will start. You don't just put both of them on a board and say look he runs faster then the other. Competition proves alot.

I agree with most of what you said. Speed does dictate draft status, however draft status doesn't dictate your production level or even greatness. The Kenny Birtt/DHB arugement is a fair one, however it won't be speed that determines eithers worth. It might put more money in DHB's pocket from the draft and put more pressure on him to produce early in his career.

Does speed matter? Yes. However it's quickness and on field speed that matters more. You rarely run 40 yards striaght without cuts, and turns, or noone in your face. So if you can translate your track speed into football speed then yes it matters. Most guys don't run the same speed on the field as they do off of it. IMO technique,passion,competiveness,heart and smarts means more then just speed. Speed will get you drafted early or open some peoples eyes about you, but at the end of the day you want football players not track stars.[/quote]


[quote name='Ravensfan23' post='157434' date='Feb 25 2009, 10:27 AM']I think that example is exactly why the 40 yard dash is overrated. I'm not saying you are wrong because he will slip if he runs a poor 40, however why should his off-field speed matter. He proved his worth on the field for the last 2 seasons, and when he needed to he ran away from defenders. Now because if 40 time doesn't match the chart that some scout has on his wall you allow a potential great player slip thur your hands. Then by the same token a guy like Troy Williamson gets draft a round maybe 2 rounds above where she should have went because of his 40 time and not his production level in college.

I'm just glad our decision makers don't seem to overvalue the combine.[/quote]

I think both your points are valid and I agree that many people place too much value on the combine.

[RoflDogs]

[quote name='RavensIQ' post='157352' date='Feb 24 2009, 11:54 PM']Are you saying Charles Rogers is as good as Jerry Rice? I'll just assume that's a no. Ok, so what point are you trying to make?

If you're going to make an example out of my example at least be somewhere in the ball park. I said if 2 players with [b]equal skill[/b] ran the forty, 1 runs a 4.3 the other runs a 4.8, who is more than likely going to start?

I didn't say compare 1 great player to 1 bum player.

Dominque Rodgers Cromartie ran a 4.2 something. He's an excellent player. Malcolm Jenkins ran a 4.5 forty. He's an excellent player. Who's more then likely going to start if it came down to it? The faster of the 2 or the slower of the 2?

I'll give you a hint...use logic.

You thought you were proving a point....but you weren't.

Regardless of who starts, the forty time is all about where the player could potentially get drafted. If a GM and his staff are hung between 2 players and one of them is fast and the other is slow, hmmm I wonder...Forty times don't make the player but it could make the draft. That's the whole point of the combine.

I'll give you a prime example.

Michael Crabtree is projected to go 4th overall to the Seattle Seahawks. He hasn't run his 40 time yet. Now if he elects to run it sometime between now and draft day and he runs a 5.1...do you think he's still going 4th overall? Dramatic example but it still proves my point.


Same with Kenny Britt and DHB. Both were projected 2nd round prospects. Britt ran a low 4.5 forty but DHB's high 4.2 forty might be just enough to allow him to creep up into the 1st and be selected higher over Britt.

Relevancy, learn how to use it [/quote]

You are assuming,
people liked DRC just for his pure athleticism, so basically it's boom or bust, he was considered quite raw
Malcolm Jenkins however, is good at man coverage with mediocre speed and athleticism

both (don't know what tense to use) were/are at different skill levels (at pre-draft status), one with lesser skill has more athleticism, but the one with more skill has less athleticism

logic is good, but you have to use it right

[wspencer]

i'm with RoflDogs on this one.

IQ, you're really overrating timed speed. GAME speed is much more important. the question you have to ask is, how many times does a player run 40 yards in a straight line at full speed? a WR does it maybe once or twice a game, depending on the scheme. a corner hardly ever runs 40 yards in a straight line. even if they're defending a 9 route, the first 10-15 yards are in a backpedal, then they flip their hips and run. everyone once in a GREAT while a RB will break a long run.

so what's more important? not to mention that football isn't played in shorts and tight under armour shirts.......

and your "logic" doesn't make sense either. when are there EVER players that are identical in skill in every aspect when the decision to sit or play them comes down to 40 time? it doesn't happen.

football skills are everything. straight line speed is about 1% of a football players game.

you talk like what you're saying is fact, but have you ever actually spoken to a scout about the evaluation process? how about a coach? from the sounds of things, probably not.