Vick To 49ers?

[H8R]

Mike Vick WAS HARDLY Talented at the QB spot.

[JEFF4i]

[quote name='RavensIQ' post='151890' date='Feb 8 2009, 04:50 PM']No what Modern Sports is telling the world is that everybody deserves a 2nd chance sometimes even a 3rd and 4th.[/quote]

Honestly, I agree with this in principle, but the bottom line is, to me, this;

Vick broke the Social Contract. He did what he did knowing it was against the law and knowing he'd lose his position. He isn't entitled to his job back, he broke that privelage. The NFL has to set a standard with him, I'm afraid. The NFL has allowed so many players to do such horrible things, and said nothing about it. As a company owner, if one of my employees did some of these acts, he wouldn't get his job back. There has to be a line drawn in the sand that some behavior will not be accepted.

We'll see how Vick acts in this, I'd love to have him come out swearing and acting upon the err of his ways, but until then, he's still a killer.

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='Rocky Mountain Raven' post='152085' date='Feb 9 2009, 11:23 AM']No, your wrong. Take your analogy of a milkman and replace it with a CEO of any fortune 500 company. Imagine they had been convicted of a felony and sentenced to a federal prison for a couple of years. Do you honestly think they can go back to top of their game after that and live he life they once lived.

Once you have a felony charge on your record your pretty much blacklisted. It shouldnt be any different for a celebrity.[/quote]

how about martha stewart....she was the head of a corporation.....was sent to jail.....and she is doing great again

the point of jail is rehab

you do your time....and its over....the price is paid

[JEFF4i]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' post='152202' date='Feb 9 2009, 05:57 PM']how about martha stewart....she was the head of a corporation.....was sent to jail.....and she is doing great again

the point of jail is rehab

you do your time....and its over....the price is paid[/quote]

Insider trading is a far cry from animal and people abuse.

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='JEFF4i' post='152204' date='Feb 9 2009, 05:05 PM']Insider trading is a far cry from animal and people abuse.[/quote]

i was just commenting on the corporation standpoint......and to them white collar crime is worse than blue collar.....white collar effects the wallet

[ZIBBY28]

[quote name='JEFF4i' post='145509' date='Jan 26 2009, 10:00 PM']If Vick plays again, well...the Steelers are lucky I love them so much, because if not, I'd never watch another NFL game. They let him play, and shows how spineless they truly are.[/quote]

I disagree. I feel like some of the things that even pacman has "alledgedly" done in the past couple years is worse than what Vick did. Im not saying i support vick, but the man got caught, did his time, and is repentive. He lost tens of millions of dollars and had his whole fan base turn against him. Through the trial he was very respectable and took full accountability for his actions. Again, im NOT condoning what Mike Vick did by any means, but i feel like he deserves another shot.

[ZIBBY28]

[quote name='JEFF4i' post='152172' date='Feb 9 2009, 03:56 PM']Vick broke the Social Contract. He did what he did knowing it was against the law and knowing he'd lose his position. He isn't entitled to his job back, he broke that privelage. The NFL has to set a standard with him, I'm afraid.[/quote]

what about all the drug abuse/DUI's etc.?.... the superbowl mvp this year, santonio holmes broke the "social contract and did so knowing it was against the law" but after a slap on the wrist with a one game suspension from the steelers in a game they knew they were going to win, he was back on the field. The league didnt do ANYTHING to him this year. Sure he might get suspended for a few games next year, but would Limus Sweed of made that catch in the endzone against the cardinalds to win their sixth suprbowl? Who knows.... Im not saying smoking pot is as serious as dog fighting, but whose to say it isnt? What if he was buying/selling these drugs to kids on the street? Again, who knows? Why is everyone holding Vick to a different standard?..I think he deserves another shot, but thats just my humble opinion.

[RavensIQ]

This may seem crude but it will do. If you don't support Michael vick that's fine. That's your stance on the subject. If you hold yourself to a higher standard and believe in the principal that animal cruelty is wrong, good for you. Believing in what's right and what's wrong is commendable but let me ask you this.

Do you support McDonals'd Big Mac? Do you support the McChicken?

What about the animal cruelty that goes on in the livestock industry? Do you know what they do to their stock? I'll give you some examples. When baby calfs are born they tie them down to a stake so they can't walk. The longer they stay immobilized the longer their body essentially eats itself (muscle atrophy) thus making the meat more tender. Then when they're ready to be slaughtered the handlers poke them with electric prods and run them down with forklifts forcing them to their death (cutting their throats and skinning them alive).

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=690hihLBVsY"]Video on Animal Cruelty in the Meat industry[/url]

Don't need to go any further into detail but I think I made my point. If you want to draw a line then be fair. Draw it straight, don't allow bends and exceptions for some, and lower standards for others. If you're so adamant about crucifying Vick for his disgusting acts, then where's your stance against the Big Mac?

Bet you won't give up the special sauce and take a stand.

Yes animal cruelty is wrong and very unfortunate, but all I'm trying to suggest is reason. If you think the NFL should take the Moral high road and expect more from their athletes, then don't stop at just Animal cruelty, expect perfection. Afterall, they are role models that get paid millions of dollars to shine in the public spotlight, so why shouldn't we expect them to set positive examples? But don't hang vick out to dry because that's unfair. Why should he be the poster child of PETA, NFL, Modern Sports? Because of his Money? His status? His Fame? If Joe Blow from the higita woogabees started a dog fighting ring would you be calling for reform and order?...No, cuz he's a nobody and you wouldn't care.

If you ever want to be forgiven, you have to forgive. If you ever want a 2nd chance you have to be willing to give a 2nd chance. Blah, blah, hit me in the head with a fiddle, but that's how it works.

Ask yourself...




What Would Jesus Do? ... not funny

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='RavensIQ' post='152381' date='Feb 10 2009, 08:02 AM']This may seem crude but it will do. If you don't support Michael vick that's fine. That's your stance on the subject. If you hold yourself to a higher standard and believe in the principal that animal cruelty is wrong, good for you. Believing in what's right and what's wrong is commendable but let me ask you this.

Do you support McDonals'd Big Mac? Do you support the McChicken?

What about the animal cruelty that goes on in the livestock industry? Do you know what they do to their stock? I'll give you some examples. When baby calfs are born they tie them down to a stake so they can't walk. The longer they stay immobilized the longer their body essentially eats itself (muscle atrophy) thus making the meat more tender. Then when they're ready to be slaughtered the handlers poke them with electric prods and run them down with forklifts forcing them to their death (cutting their throats and skinning them alive).

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=690hihLBVsY"]Video on Animal Cruelty in the Meat industry[/url]

Don't need to go any further into detail but I think I made my point. If you want to draw a line then be fair. Draw it straight, don't allow bends and exceptions for some, and lower standards for others. If you're so adamant about crucifying Vick for his disgusting acts, then where's your stance against the Big Mac?

Bet you won't give up the special sauce and take a stand.

Yes animal cruelty is wrong and very unfortunate, but all I'm trying to suggest is reason. If you think the NFL should take the Moral high road and expect more from their athletes, then don't stop at just Animal cruelty, expect perfection. Afterall, they are role models that get paid millions of dollars to shine in the public spotlight, so why shouldn't we expect them to set positive examples? But don't hang vick out to dry because that's unfair. Why should he be the poster child of PETA, NFL, Modern Sports? Because of his Money? His status? His Fame? If Joe Blow from the higita woogabees started a dog fighting ring would you be calling for reform and order?...No, cuz he's a nobody and you wouldn't care.

If you ever want to be forgiven, you have to forgive. If you ever want a 2nd chance you have to be willing to give a 2nd chance. Blah, blah, hit me in the head with a fiddle, but that's how it works.

Ask yourself...




What Would Jesus Do? ... not funny [/quote]

hold on for this one IQ....A member of steelers nation completly agrees with you.....never thought you would hear that one huh lol

but seriously your a smart man with a great point.......i never understood how some people value animal rights over human rights......i think what he did was horrible....but he paid his price.......whats the point of rehab/jail if we never forgive people.....we have all done stuff we dont want on our lifes highlight reel.....i think he learned his lesson....he at least should be given the benefit of the doubt..... everyone deserves a second chance

[Rocky Mountain Raven]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' post='152202' date='Feb 9 2009, 02:57 PM']how about martha stewart....she was the head of a corporation.....was sent to jail.....and she is doing great again

the point of jail is rehab

you do your time....and its over....the price is paid[/quote]

The point of jail is PUNISHMENT, with the hopes that rehabilitation into the real world again is a plausible solution based on the grounds that the offender wont commit another crime due to the realization of giving up their freedom a second time.

Just as an example - [b]about 70 percent of California inmates overall return to prison.[/b] How much rehabilitation is going on?

Martha's my point exactly. Her celebrity status has enabled her to regain her position, but remember, she founded and owns the company, not the same thing.

To RavensIQ: You make my point even clearer, thank you. A straight line is definitely not present in todays society. Mostly due to the numerous passes that celebrities are given. Don't assume that I am attacking Vick for being a celebrity, I'm not, I'm attacking him because he's an ***hole. He didnt volunteer his time and make his repentance due to his guilt. He did it for the sake of less jail time and to clean his dirtied reputation.

He should be able to find work and make a living, since he has been "rehabilitated" or whatever you want to call it. But, not in the public spotlight like he once did. His freedom is his second chance!

As far as the meat industry, it has no relevance with this case. They are not on trial here, Vick is. Most people have no idea what goes on in these slaughterhouses. I'm not sure of the law that binds a slaughterhouse to ethical issues, but your right, there should be and they should be prosecuted to the maximum extent of the law. Not all slaughterhouses operate like that either. Who knows what meat goes where, so boycotting a specific restaurant would be difficult.

To forgive is not to deny repercussions. His jail time and forfeit as a public figure is his cross to bear. He has been forgiven.

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='Rocky Mountain Raven' post='152449' date='Feb 10 2009, 02:04 PM']To forgive is not to deny repercussions. His jail time and forfeit as a public figure is his cross to bear. He has been forgiven.[/quote]

you did make me think with some of the things you said.......my only real arguement is with this statement

the repercussions is the jail time.......the punishment does not include banishment......courts will deny people the right to do certain jobs if they feel its warranted

which they did not in this case......who are we to enact our own punishment on this man who paid his time.......thats why courts increase the penalties if you repeat your crime.....because we give the benefit of the doubt to first timers, that they arent beyond repair......this is his strike one

[Rocky Mountain Raven]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' post='152456' date='Feb 10 2009, 12:37 PM']you did make me think with some of the things you said.......my only real arguement is with this statement

the repercussions is the jail time.......the punishment does not include banishment......courts will deny people the right to do certain jobs if they feel its warranted

which they did not in this case......who are we to enact our own punishment on this man who paid his time.......thats why courts increase the penalties if you repeat your crime.....because we give the benefit of the doubt to first timers, that they arent beyond repair......this is his strike one[/quote]

In any criminal court case, the court acts on behalf of the people, so in theory your right. However, I believe in a much higher ethical code of conduct and it seems the NFL does too. It is the NFL's decision to have a Code of Conduct for it's players.

[i][b]Roger Goodell made this statement in his press release: "It is important that the NFL be represented consistently by outstanding people as well as great football players, coaches, and staff." Goodell believes that the strengthened code of personal conduct, and the enhancements which will be generated on case by case bases, will lead the NFL back to the reputation of being a good civic citizen, rather than a "bad boy".[/b][/i]

Like I said, I forgive Vick, but the NFL has its own business with him now. I personally do not think he should be reinstated based on the beliefs of the Commissioner of the NFL and the image the organization is trying to project.

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='Rocky Mountain Raven' post='152478' date='Feb 10 2009, 03:56 PM']In any criminal court case, the court acts on behalf of the people, so in theory your right. However, I believe in a much higher ethical code of conduct and it seems the NFL does too. It is the NFL's decision to have a Code of Conduct for it's players.

[i][b]Roger Goodell made this statement in his press release: "It is important that the NFL be represented consistently by outstanding people as well as great football players, coaches, and staff." Goodell believes that the strengthened code of personal conduct, and the enhancements which will be generated on case by case bases, will lead the NFL back to the reputation of being a good civic citizen, rather than a "bad boy".[/b][/i]

Like I said, I forgive Vick, but the NFL has its own business with him now. I personally do not think he should be reinstated based on the beliefs of the Commissioner of the NFL and the image the organization is trying to project.[/quote]

but if the league holds itself to such a high standard why doesnt it ever uphold that standard

if they choose to all of a sudden say "you know what we dont allow felons in the nfl" after years of not caring

people are going to want to know why now

and the answers that jump out at you are not pretty ones

if they want to start upholding this standard they have to say" all acts such as X will not be tolerated after X date" they cant just say

you, you and you back in

but you cant ever return......it doesnt make sense

[Rocky Mountain Raven]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' post='152492' date='Feb 10 2009, 02:38 PM']but if the league holds itself to such a high standard why doesnt it ever uphold that standard

if they choose to all of a sudden say "you know what we dont allow felons in the nfl" after years of not caring

people are going to want to know why now

and the answers that jump out at you are not pretty ones

if they want to start upholding this standard they have to say" all acts such as X will not be tolerated after X date" they cant just say

you, you and you back in

but you cant ever return......it doesnt make sense[/quote]


It does make sense, its their league and their right to do whats appropriate in their minds. Like they said, on a case by case basis.

Keep in mind that to spell out and categorize every single offense would be impossible. No crimes are committed in the same exact manner, and those that are similar by judgment , I believe will be dealt with in a consistent manner.

There will always be different reasons for a crime or extenuating circumstances of a particular crime. It's not that black and white. Some crimes are accidental, nonetheless, they are still crimes but the punishment isnt as severe.

In this case there was undeniable premeditated malicious acts of cruelty to animals for the sole purpose of profit. Regardless of what other players have been dealt in the past, we are talking about Michael Vick here. He deserves to be banished.

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='Rocky Mountain Raven' post='152510' date='Feb 10 2009, 05:09 PM']It does make sense, its their league and their right to do whats appropriate in their minds. Like they said, on a case by case basis.

Keep in mind that to spell out and categorize every single offense would be impossible. No crimes are committed in the same exact manner, and those that are similar by judgment , I believe will be dealt with in a consistent manner.

There will always be different reasons for a crime or extenuating circumstances of a particular crime. It's not that black and white. Some crimes are accidental, nonetheless, they are still crimes but the punishment isnt as severe.

In this case there was undeniable premeditated malicious acts of cruelty to animals for the sole purpose of profit. Regardless of what other players have been dealt in the past, we are talking about Michael Vick here. He deserves to be banished.[/quote]

but pacman jones was patted on the back and given a lolipop

you cant go case by case because then you open your self up to biased decisions

you have to say a crime of a violent nature is case for banishment.....and then without question hold that line

you cant just say "well that guy just paralyzed a person he didnt kill dogs" because then your putting your own biased opinions before justice

[ZIBBY28]

i cant even read your posts because i cant quit staring at hines ward's cheesey smile.

[Rocky Mountain Raven]

[quote name='STEELERS PROPHET268' post='152511' date='Feb 10 2009, 04:15 PM']but pacman jones was patted on the back and given a lolipop

you cant go case by case because then you open your self up to biased decisions

you have to say a crime of a violent nature is case for banishment.....and then without question hold that line

you cant just say "well that guy just paralyzed a person he didnt kill dogs" because then your putting your own biased opinions before justice[/quote]

I understand what your saying and agree that there has to be a line drawn somewhere. It's all very hypothetical though. Thats why theres always a possible sentence in a court case, for instance 2-6 years in prison. The NFL cant shape the law if the law itself isn't consistent.

Justice is most of the time handed down by the sole decisions of a single person. That person is responsible to dicipher the circumstances of each case and determine the intent of the defendant.

I believe that the NFL will make its decisions based on the circumstances determined by the courts; in extreme cases. The NFL can and will make provisions against players actions, even those not resulting in criminal charges.

What we, the NFL, and the Judicial Branch of our government cannot do; is base our whole structure on a few cases where the defendant did not get the proper sentencing.

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='Rocky Mountain Raven' post='152516' date='Feb 10 2009, 05:34 PM']I understand what your saying and agree that there has to be a line drawn somewhere. It's all very hypothetical though. Thats why theres always a possible sentence in a court case, for instance 2-6 years in prison. The NFL cant shape the law if the law itself isn't consistent.

Justice is most of the time handed down by the sole decisions of a single person. That person is responsible to dicipher the circumstances of each case and determine the intent of the defendant.

I believe that the NFL will make its decisions based on the circumstances determined by the courts; in extreme cases. The NFL can and will make provisions against players actions, even those not resulting in criminal charges.

What we, the NFL, and the Judicial Branch of our government cannot do; is base our whole structure on a few cases where the defendant did not get the proper sentencing.[/quote]

you uphold your side of the arguement well......i see where your coming from which is the highest compliment someone who disagrees with you can give

i think he should be given a second chance and you think he doesnt deserve one, which is not crazy at all

it has been a pleasure debating the point with you

[SteelersProphet]

[quote name='ZIBBY28' post='152513' date='Feb 10 2009, 05:24 PM']i cant even read your posts because i cant quit staring at hines ward's cheesey smile.[/quote]

hahaha......i like to stare at it too