[News] Late For Work 5/4: What It Would Have Cost To Trade Up For A First-Round Receiver

budkretz · 2017-05-04T16:22:22Z

Don't understand why we did not trade back in 1st round to get an extra pick in 3rd round. If Humphrey is a starter right off that means J Smith or B Carr are injured. To start the year the DBs are Smith, Carr, Weddle and Jefferson, T Young is nickel and L Webb is dime - this means Humphrey your #1 pick is special teams and he is not a return man. With an extra pick we could get one of the better running backs or second wave of WR to at least bolster what we have on offense. And by picking in the 20s we would have secured one of the 3 bog O-linemen and only have one position to worry about. We'd still be in a position to get Bowser, Wormley and T Williams (at least 2 out of 3) As of today we have 2 spots on o-line we are unsure of. We have 3 WRs that have experience and defenses don't have to focus on Wallace or Perriman and they can be covered man-to-man. Defenses will allow Pitta to catch 200 passes since he only nets about 5 yards and had worst percentage of moving the chains. The other TEs are old, injured, suspended or on IR Dixon is out 4 games . Does West keep DC's up at nights planning their defense against the Ravens? All you need is a vanilla defense on 1st & 2nd downs and on 3rd you blitz past a line with 3 /5 proven players. Unless Ozzie can find a trade to bring in a playmaker our offense is going to struggle. No matter how good the Ravens defense is we will give up 15-20 points a game. Unless Marty M comes up with brilliant game plans I don't see the offense having big numbers. Yes the defense should be much improved and we will stay in most games because of that. But to expect a ball hawking team like we had in 2000 under Pees is probably wishful thinking. I hope I am wrong and I will root until the end , but I can't see a record above 8-8.

billiejean · 2017-05-04T16:22:55Z

23 minutes ago, Raven1995 said:

29 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

36 minutes ago, Raven1995 said:

1 hour ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

Easy on that Blue Hen drank. Boyle has the chance to be great? I think he has a chance to be good and I think he will be a big contributor to this team, but using the term great is a bit over the top. It is extremely unlikely that we would cut Maxx. He would have to have an absolutely terrible camp for the FO to release a second rounder in his 3rd year. Even though he has only played 1 year that one year was much more impressive than Art Browns first 2 and we kept him a third year. You cant just write him off because he was injured last year and your a Delaware fan. I know its hard to think back that far but he showed promise in his rookie season...He actually made some really spectacular catches while working with 3 different QBs. He actually has more receptions than Boyle who has played more games. Not that, that necessarily means anything. I think they will both be on the team and they compliment each other well. Williams is your more athletic pass catching TE and Boyle is more of your blocking TE who I expect to take over a lot of Juices blocking duties. But they are both well rounded guys and should be able to contribute this year.

rmcjacket23 · 2017-05-04T16:23:38Z

47 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

1 hour ago, Raven1995 said:

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1 hour ago, Raven1995 said:

2 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

I will caution you... last year Pitta wasn't moving the chains at all. Not only was he not getting YAC, he also wasn't moving the chains. He had one of the lower percentages of receptions for first downs among the primary pass catchers last season.

Pitta had 86 catches last year and 37 first downs which is 43%. Steve Smith Last year had 70 catches for 39 first downs which is 55% roughly. There isn't much difference between the numbers. Compared to other starting TE's, Charles Clay was 38%, Ryan griffin was 38%, Will Tye 33%, Larry Donnel 20%, Jason Witten 47%, Julious Thomas 50%, Vernon Davis 50%, Jermaine Gresham 51%, Delanie Walker and Zach Ertz 53%. All of these Tight ends did slightly better or worse than Pitta. And in perspective to receivers, Larry Fitzgerald 55%, Edelman 56%, Golden Tate 50%, Jamison Crowder 50%, Tavon Austin 40%. All of these receivers caught at least 50 passes and their percentages aren't much better than Pitta. plus if you watched the games last year, very rarely were the passes to Pitta on target. Many times he had to reach up over his head or make a shoestring catch which hinders your ability tomove after catching the pass.

Pitta did have 37 first downs, which IMO is pretty good for a tight end. There were only 6 tight ends that had more first downs: Greg Olson (54), Jimmy Graham (45), Zach Ertz (42), Kyle Rudolph (50), Jordan Reed (41) and Travis Kelce (55).
And you may notice that there really wasn't mch of a receiving threat other than these tight ends for their respective team, except for Jimmy Graham (Doug Baldwin), Travis Kelce (Jeremy Maclin) and Jordan Reed (Jackson and Garcon). The others were the primary receivers for their teams, especially Rudolph with Bradford just dumping it to running backs and tight ends.

Actually, there's a HUGE difference between those numbers. Look at this way... the average between Perriman, Wallace, Steve and Aiken, in terms of first downs/catch, was roughly 59%.

In order for Pitta to get to a number like that, he would have needed about 14 more first downs. That's close to a first down a game.

If you don't think a first down a game is a big deal, then you didn't watch a lot of our games last year or frankly any NFL game. I can point to several games where a single first down was the difference between a W and an L.

And those numbers are even worse if you look at it from a per-target perspective. He's down around 30% conversion.

Again, you can take numbers out of context all day long and make them say whatever you want. 37 first downs sounds like a lot... if you don't take into account how many catches they actually have or how many times they are targeted.

rmcjacket23 · 2017-05-04T16:28:43Z

36 minutes ago, b93333 said:

1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

1 hour ago, Raven1995 said:

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1 hour ago, Raven1995 said:

2 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

Moves the chains? He set a new NFL record for the most "failed receptions"... remember that stat? It roughly meant a reception that didn't get close to the 1st down marker.

37 first downs and a first down rate of 43%. 37 first downs by anyone is pretty good. Also remember the passes he caught were more likely than not in a 3rd and long situation with the ball being thrown 5 yards down field.

1. And that's the reason he's catching those passes... because the defense is allowing him to. He's not a threat for YAC, and so they will let him sit down 2-3 years short of the line of gain and catch passes all day long.

If anything, that pads his stats, not helps them. It inflates his reception total while yielding very little value to the offense on that play. I guess you could argue it makes for a shorter punt?

2. I look at it this way... the FO tells you everything you need to know.

Career year for Pitta in receptions and yardage, and he played the whole season.

And then he was asked to take a significant paycut.

I'd like to know how many players you think this happens to.

BlueHenToRaven · 2017-05-04T16:29:50Z

12 minutes ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

59 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

1 hour ago, Raven1995 said:

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1 hour ago, Raven1995 said:

2 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

I will caution you... last year Pitta wasn't moving the chains at all. Not only was he not getting YAC, he also wasn't moving the chains. He had one of the lower percentages of receptions for first downs among the primary pass catchers last season.

Pitta had 86 catches last year and 37 first downs which is 43%. Steve Smith Last year had 70 catches for 39 first downs which is 55% roughly. There isn't much difference between the numbers. Compared to other starting TE's, Charles Clay was 38%, Ryan griffin was 38%, Will Tye 33%, Larry Donnel 20%, Jason Witten 47%, Julious Thomas 50%, Vernon Davis 50%, Jermaine Gresham 51%, Delanie Walker and Zach Ertz 53%. All of these Tight ends did slightly better or worse than Pitta. And in perspective to receivers, Larry Fitzgerald 55%, Edelman 56%, Golden Tate 50%, Jamison Crowder 50%, Tavon Austin 40%. All of these receivers caught at least 50 passes and their percentages aren't much better than Pitta. plus if you watched the games last year, very rarely were the passes to Pitta on target. Many times he had to reach up over his head or make a shoestring catch which hinders your ability tomove after catching the pass.

Pitta did have 37 first downs, which IMO is pretty good for a tight end. There were only 6 tight ends that had more first downs: Greg Olson (54), Jimmy Graham (45), Zach Ertz (42), Kyle Rudolph (50), Jordan Reed (41) and Travis Kelce (55).
And you may notice that there really wasn't mch of a receiving threat other than these tight ends for their respective team, except for Jimmy Graham (Doug Baldwin), Travis Kelce (Jeremy Maclin) and Jordan Reed (Jackson and Garcon). The others were the primary receivers for their teams, especially Rudolph with Bradford just dumping it to running backs and tight ends.

Actually, there's a HUGE difference between those numbers. Look at this way... the average between Perriman, Wallace, Steve and Aiken, in terms of first downs/catch, was roughly 59%.

In order for Pitta to get to a number like that, he would have needed about 14 more first downs. That's close to a first down a game.

If you don't think a first down a game is a big deal, then you didn't watch a lot of our games last year or frankly any NFL game. I can point to several games where a single first down was the difference between a W and an L.

And those numbers are even worse if you look at it from a per-target perspective. He's down around 30% conversion.

Again, you can take numbers out of context all day long and make them say whatever you want. 37 first downs sounds like a lot... if you don't take into account how many catches they actually have or how many times they are targeted.

okay so since you watched a lot of games, how many of those targets and catches were on balls thrown 5 yards downfield on a 3-10 or longer?? You cant expect someone to catch the ball and run 10 yards before being gang tackled. I also wouldn't bring in the target factor. You had to have seen Flacco overthrow him or throw it at his feet when hes rushed multiple times. The only it counts as a target is because Flacco had to throw it in the vicinity of someone to avoid intentional grounding. A better stat would be how many times Pitta was targeted on a pass further downfield than the first down marker or how many times he caught a pass within 4-5 yards of the first down marker. I guarantee there isn't many

Halshayeji · 2017-05-04T16:38:58Z

1 hour ago, ellicottraven said:

If trading up for a WR was so seriously considered, it baffles me as to the reason they didn't select a top 5-10 talent in the best receiving TE to come out in the past several years - OJ Howard. He would be a great move the chains TE and a mismatch on gameday. He would also be a huge upgrade on our oft injured TE group.

No it wasn't. Our FO didn't even make calls to move up inside 10. Ozzie clearly said that they tried mooving up in the "teens" so it was probably for barnett

eze17 · 2017-05-04T16:48:11Z

Don't understand why we did not trade back in 1st round to get an extra pick in 3rd round. If Humphrey is a starter right off that means J Smith or B Carr are injured. To start the year the DBs are Smith, Carr, Weddle and Jefferson, T Young is nickel and L Webb is dime - this means Humphrey your #1 pick is special teams and he is not a return man. With an extra pick we could get one of the better running backs or second wave of WR to at least bolster what we have on offense. And by picking in the 20s we would have secured one of the 3 bog O-linemen and only have one position to worry about. We'd still be in a position to get Bowser, Wormley and T Williams (at least 2 out of 3) As of today we have 2 spots on o-line we are unsure of. We have 3 WRs that have experience and defenses don't have to focus on Wallace or Perriman and they can be covered man-to-man. Defenses will allow Pitta to catch 200 passes since he only nets about 5 yards and had worst percentage of moving the chains. The other TEs are old, injured, suspended or on IR Dixon is out 4 games . Does West keep DC's up at nights planning their defense against the Ravens? All you need is a vanilla defense on 1st & 2nd downs and on 3rd you blitz past a line with 3 /5 proven players. Unless Ozzie can find a trade to bring in a playmaker our offense is going to struggle. No matter how good the Ravens defense is we will give up 15-20 points a game. Unless Marty M comes up with brilliant game plans I don't see the offense having big numbers. Yes the defense should be much improved and we will stay in most games because of that. But to expect a ball hawking team like we had in 2000 under Pees is probably wishful thinking. I hope I am wrong and I will root until the end , but I can't see a record above 8-8.

Why would we have Webb playing dime CB? I can't fathom how you would consider us not playing Humphery in that position. More than likely, we'll have Canady as a 5th CB, and he was doing a fine job playing ST until he was injured. Humphery will more than likely be given every opportunity to compete for Carr's spot, but likely will be in nickle/dime packages. In any case, if you haven't been watching Raven's games the last few years, we have had so many problems fielding a competitive secondary late in the season, it will be a relief to have capable guys who can come in and play at a high level. Webb may see some time at CB, but my prediction is that would be very limited and only if the injury bug hits us during a game. He's going to be the main back up safety,(and wouldn't be surprised if he does some return work also) not a full time CB.

rmcjacket23 · 2017-05-04T16:49:09Z

22 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

33 minutes ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

1 hour ago, Raven1995 said:

2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

2 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

I will caution you... last year Pitta wasn't moving the chains at all. Not only was he not getting YAC, he also wasn't moving the chains. He had one of the lower percentages of receptions for first downs among the primary pass catchers last season.

Pitta had 86 catches last year and 37 first downs which is 43%. Steve Smith Last year had 70 catches for 39 first downs which is 55% roughly. There isn't much difference between the numbers. Compared to other starting TE's, Charles Clay was 38%, Ryan griffin was 38%, Will Tye 33%, Larry Donnel 20%, Jason Witten 47%, Julious Thomas 50%, Vernon Davis 50%, Jermaine Gresham 51%, Delanie Walker and Zach Ertz 53%. All of these Tight ends did slightly better or worse than Pitta. And in perspective to receivers, Larry Fitzgerald 55%, Edelman 56%, Golden Tate 50%, Jamison Crowder 50%, Tavon Austin 40%. All of these receivers caught at least 50 passes and their percentages aren't much better than Pitta. plus if you watched the games last year, very rarely were the passes to Pitta on target. Many times he had to reach up over his head or make a shoestring catch which hinders your ability tomove after catching the pass.

Pitta did have 37 first downs, which IMO is pretty good for a tight end. There were only 6 tight ends that had more first downs: Greg Olson (54), Jimmy Graham (45), Zach Ertz (42), Kyle Rudolph (50), Jordan Reed (41) and Travis Kelce (55).
And you may notice that there really wasn't mch of a receiving threat other than these tight ends for their respective team, except for Jimmy Graham (Doug Baldwin), Travis Kelce (Jeremy Maclin) and Jordan Reed (Jackson and Garcon). The others were the primary receivers for their teams, especially Rudolph with Bradford just dumping it to running backs and tight ends.

Actually, there's a HUGE difference between those numbers. Look at this way... the average between Perriman, Wallace, Steve and Aiken, in terms of first downs/catch, was roughly 59%.

In order for Pitta to get to a number like that, he would have needed about 14 more first downs. That's close to a first down a game.

If you don't think a first down a game is a big deal, then you didn't watch a lot of our games last year or frankly any NFL game. I can point to several games where a single first down was the difference between a W and an L.

And those numbers are even worse if you look at it from a per-target perspective. He's down around 30% conversion.

Again, you can take numbers out of context all day long and make them say whatever you want. 37 first downs sounds like a lot... if you don't take into account how many catches they actually have or how many times they are targeted.

okay so since you watched a lot of games, how many of those targets and catches were on balls thrown 5 yards downfield on a 3-10 or longer?? You cant expect someone to catch the ball and run 10 yards before being gang tackled. I also wouldn't bring in the target factor. You had to have seen Flacco overthrow him or throw it at his feet when hes rushed multiple times. The only it counts as a target is because Flacco had to throw it in the vicinity of someone to avoid intentional grounding. A better stat would be how many times Pitta was targeted on a pass further downfield than the first down marker or how many times he caught a pass within 4-5 yards of the first down marker. I guarantee there isn't many

Probably many of them.

But that's partially because of the player he's throwing it to. Do you think Pitta's catch percentage would be higher if he were targeted more down the field? Because I don't see a skill set he brings that would make that likely. I think if he were targeted more down the field, you'd see a decreased reception count and a decreased first down reception count.

So what's the point?

I don't expect receivers to run 10 yards while breaking tackles, but I do expect them to get 2-3 YAC if needed, and he wasn't very good at that.

The Patriots entire offense is built upon throwing the ball short of the line of gain and letting their receivers get YAC. Saints offense is designed this way also, and you'll find similar traits to every quality passing game in this league.

rmcjacket23 · 2017-05-04T17:06:06Z

Don't understand why we did not trade back in 1st round to get an extra pick in 3rd round. If Humphrey is a starter right off that means J Smith or B Carr are injured. To start the year the DBs are Smith, Carr, Weddle and Jefferson, T Young is nickel and L Webb is dime - this means Humphrey your #1 pick is special teams and he is not a return man. With an extra pick we could get one of the better running backs or second wave of WR to at least bolster what we have on offense. And by picking in the 20s we would have secured one of the 3 bog O-linemen and only have one position to worry about. We'd still be in a position to get Bowser, Wormley and T Williams (at least 2 out of 3) As of today we have 2 spots on o-line we are unsure of. We have 3 WRs that have experience and defenses don't have to focus on Wallace or Perriman and they can be covered man-to-man. Defenses will allow Pitta to catch 200 passes since he only nets about 5 yards and had worst percentage of moving the chains. The other TEs are old, injured, suspended or on IR Dixon is out 4 games . Does West keep DC's up at nights planning their defense against the Ravens? All you need is a vanilla defense on 1st & 2nd downs and on 3rd you blitz past a line with 3 /5 proven players. Unless Ozzie can find a trade to bring in a playmaker our offense is going to struggle. No matter how good the Ravens defense is we will give up 15-20 points a game. Unless Marty M comes up with brilliant game plans I don't see the offense having big numbers. Yes the defense should be much improved and we will stay in most games because of that. But to expect a ball hawking team like we had in 2000 under Pees is probably wishful thinking. I hope I am wrong and I will root until the end , but I can't see a record above 8-8.

Short answer... it requires two parties to trade. You have to find a team willing to give you a 2nd or 3rd round pick to come up (not a guarantee) and you'd have to find a player worthy of that team trading up to get him.

If you noticed, most of the trade ups in this draft or in other drafts are for QBs or premier skill position players. I don't see any of those players coming off the board at that point that another team would want to trade up for.

Its far too easy for fans to say "just trade back" when they don't have to do the legwork of actually finding a team willing to trade up and getting fair compensation for it.

Basically, you're not asking the right questions. Instead of asking "why didn't the Ravens trade back", you should be asking (and trying to answer) the question of "why would a team want to trade up to 16"?

Because if you can't answer that question, then you already answered why we didn't make a trade.

rmcjacket23 · 2017-05-04T17:09:08Z

39 minutes ago, budkretz said:

Don't understand why we did not trade back in 1st round to get an extra pick in 3rd round. If Humphrey is a starter right off that means J Smith or B Carr are injured. To start the year the DBs are Smith, Carr, Weddle and Jefferson, T Young is nickel and L Webb is dime - this means Humphrey your #1 pick is special teams and he is not a return man. With an extra pick we could get one of the better running backs or second wave of WR to at least bolster what we have on offense. And by picking in the 20s we would have secured one of the 3 bog O-linemen and only have one position to worry about. We'd still be in a position to get Bowser, Wormley and T Williams (at least 2 out of 3) As of today we have 2 spots on o-line we are unsure of. We have 3 WRs that have experience and defenses don't have to focus on Wallace or Perriman and they can be covered man-to-man. Defenses will allow Pitta to catch 200 passes since he only nets about 5 yards and had worst percentage of moving the chains. The other TEs are old, injured, suspended or on IR Dixon is out 4 games . Does West keep DC's up at nights planning their defense against the Ravens? All you need is a vanilla defense on 1st & 2nd downs and on 3rd you blitz past a line with 3 /5 proven players. Unless Ozzie can find a trade to bring in a playmaker our offense is going to struggle. No matter how good the Ravens defense is we will give up 15-20 points a game. Unless Marty M comes up with brilliant game plans I don't see the offense having big numbers. Yes the defense should be much improved and we will stay in most games because of that. But to expect a ball hawking team like we had in 2000 under Pees is probably wishful thinking. I hope I am wrong and I will root until the end , but I can't see a record above 8-8.

Why would we have Webb playing dime CB? I can't fathom how you would consider us not playing Humphery in that position. More than likely, we'll have Canady as a 5th CB, and he was doing a fine job playing ST until he was injured. Humphery will more than likely be given every opportunity to compete for Carr's spot, but likely will be in nickle/dime packages. In any case, if you haven't been watching Raven's games the last few years, we have had so many problems fielding a competitive secondary late in the season, it will be a relief to have capable guys who can come in and play at a high level. Webb may see some time at CB, but my prediction is that would be very limited and only if the injury bug hits us during a game. He's going to be the main back up safety,(and wouldn't be surprised if he does some return work also) not a full time CB.

In my ideal world, we play a lot more dime packages (something we literally played none of last season) and Webb is part of that package, as a coverage guy either at CB or Safety (in Dime I'm not sure it really matters).

Lack of depth/quality player at ILB to me means we should put more secondary players out there, especially on passing downs. Finding a way to get Weddle/Jefferson/Webb on the field at the same time seems like a good idea to me.

Halshayeji · 2017-05-04T17:11:11Z

2 hours ago, Rayner said:

Never mind trading up and giving up a king's ransom for, let's face it, WRs that don't have the talent levels or college production as most of the last few classes (And that's before all 3 of their injury histories are taken into account) when there were 3 players that I would have loved but wouldn't have pegged falling to us going 14th, 15th and 17th. How much would it have cost to move up a couple of spots to get "The next Ed Reed" or Suggs heir apparent? A 4th?

Great post. None of them were considered Julio but Davis and Williams had the potential of being an AJ Green. For one of hem to fall to 16 then we'd get great value but to reach that far is crazy. Especially when you have to give up so much for a guy that's not necesarrily guaranteed NFL sucess.

had we passed on one at 16 then yes j also would have thrown a tantrum. But I seriously don't understand why people are even complaining. You take what the draft gives you and I think we did well with our first pick.

BlueHenToRaven · 2017-05-04T17:13:01Z

31 minutes ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

37 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

48 minutes ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

3 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

I will caution you... last year Pitta wasn't moving the chains at all. Not only was he not getting YAC, he also wasn't moving the chains. He had one of the lower percentages of receptions for first downs among the primary pass catchers last season.

Pitta had 86 catches last year and 37 first downs which is 43%. Steve Smith Last year had 70 catches for 39 first downs which is 55% roughly. There isn't much difference between the numbers. Compared to other starting TE's, Charles Clay was 38%, Ryan griffin was 38%, Will Tye 33%, Larry Donnel 20%, Jason Witten 47%, Julious Thomas 50%, Vernon Davis 50%, Jermaine Gresham 51%, Delanie Walker and Zach Ertz 53%. All of these Tight ends did slightly better or worse than Pitta. And in perspective to receivers, Larry Fitzgerald 55%, Edelman 56%, Golden Tate 50%, Jamison Crowder 50%, Tavon Austin 40%. All of these receivers caught at least 50 passes and their percentages aren't much better than Pitta. plus if you watched the games last year, very rarely were the passes to Pitta on target. Many times he had to reach up over his head or make a shoestring catch which hinders your ability tomove after catching the pass.

Pitta did have 37 first downs, which IMO is pretty good for a tight end. There were only 6 tight ends that had more first downs: Greg Olson (54), Jimmy Graham (45), Zach Ertz (42), Kyle Rudolph (50), Jordan Reed (41) and Travis Kelce (55).
And you may notice that there really wasn't mch of a receiving threat other than these tight ends for their respective team, except for Jimmy Graham (Doug Baldwin), Travis Kelce (Jeremy Maclin) and Jordan Reed (Jackson and Garcon). The others were the primary receivers for their teams, especially Rudolph with Bradford just dumping it to running backs and tight ends.

Actually, there's a HUGE difference between those numbers. Look at this way... the average between Perriman, Wallace, Steve and Aiken, in terms of first downs/catch, was roughly 59%.

In order for Pitta to get to a number like that, he would have needed about 14 more first downs. That's close to a first down a game.

If you don't think a first down a game is a big deal, then you didn't watch a lot of our games last year or frankly any NFL game. I can point to several games where a single first down was the difference between a W and an L.

And those numbers are even worse if you look at it from a per-target perspective. He's down around 30% conversion.

Again, you can take numbers out of context all day long and make them say whatever you want. 37 first downs sounds like a lot... if you don't take into account how many catches they actually have or how many times they are targeted.

okay so since you watched a lot of games, how many of those targets and catches were on balls thrown 5 yards downfield on a 3-10 or longer?? You cant expect someone to catch the ball and run 10 yards before being gang tackled. I also wouldn't bring in the target factor. You had to have seen Flacco overthrow him or throw it at his feet when hes rushed multiple times. The only it counts as a target is because Flacco had to throw it in the vicinity of someone to avoid intentional grounding. A better stat would be how many times Pitta was targeted on a pass further downfield than the first down marker or how many times he caught a pass within 4-5 yards of the first down marker. I guarantee there isn't many

Probably many of them.

But that's partially because of the player he's throwing it to. Do you think Pitta's catch percentage would be higher if he were targeted more down the field? Because I don't see a skill set he brings that would make that likely. I think if he were targeted more down the field, you'd see a decreased reception count and a decreased first down reception count.

So what's the point?

I don't expect receivers to run 10 yards while breaking tackles, but I do expect them to get 2-3 YAC if needed, and he wasn't very good at that.

The Patriots entire offense is built upon throwing the ball short of the line of gain and letting their receivers get YAC. Saints offense is designed this way also, and you'll find similar traits to every quality passing game in this league.

okay, so instead of using your hypothetical situations, try using numbers. Pitta had 729 yards on 86 catches which is 8.5 yards per catch. He also average 3.7 YAC, which you said he should be getting 2-3. This also means that n average, he was catching a ball 4.8 yards down field. So I reiterate, on third and long, or second and long, they target him short (less than 5 yrds) and expect him to break off for the first down. I feel that if you average a yar under 10 yards per reception, you should have a lot of first downs. And everyone likes to make comparisons to NE. Sorry to break it to you, nobody is like NE. You can bring up NO but they've been less successful than Bmore the last half decade so why would we want that? You wont find another team that has success like NE has had with the types of players they have. Just as a comparison, Minnesota liked the short plays too, look where that got them...

BlueHenToRaven · 2017-05-04T17:21:10Z

1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

1 hour ago, b93333 said:

2 hours ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

3 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

Moves the chains? He set a new NFL record for the most "failed receptions"... remember that stat? It roughly meant a reception that didn't get close to the 1st down marker.

37 first downs and a first down rate of 43%. 37 first downs by anyone is pretty good. Also remember the passes he caught were more likely than not in a 3rd and long situation with the ball being thrown 5 yards down field.

1. And that's the reason he's catching those passes... because the defense is allowing him to. He's not a threat for YAC, and so they will let him sit down 2-3 years short of the line of gain and catch passes all day long.

If anything, that pads his stats, not helps them. It inflates his reception total while yielding very little value to the offense on that play. I guess you could argue it makes for a shorter punt?

2. I look at it this way... the FO tells you everything you need to know.

Career year for Pitta in receptions and yardage, and he played the whole season.

And then he was asked to take a significant paycut.

I'd like to know how many players you think this happens to.

he averaged almost 4 YAC so youre telling me they just let him sit 2-3 yards under the line to gain? I doubt that. And he was asked to take a pay cut due to injuries, The Ravens do that to most players who suffer 1, let alone 2,career threatening injuries. And they haven't asked him to take a pay cut this year. Weve read articles talking about it, but no actual offer yet... Hes one hit away from his hit popping again, so Id have him take a pay cut too

rmcjacket23 · 2017-05-04T17:22:37Z

24 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

43 minutes ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

50 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

2 hours ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

3 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

I will caution you... last year Pitta wasn't moving the chains at all. Not only was he not getting YAC, he also wasn't moving the chains. He had one of the lower percentages of receptions for first downs among the primary pass catchers last season.

Pitta had 86 catches last year and 37 first downs which is 43%. Steve Smith Last year had 70 catches for 39 first downs which is 55% roughly. There isn't much difference between the numbers. Compared to other starting TE's, Charles Clay was 38%, Ryan griffin was 38%, Will Tye 33%, Larry Donnel 20%, Jason Witten 47%, Julious Thomas 50%, Vernon Davis 50%, Jermaine Gresham 51%, Delanie Walker and Zach Ertz 53%. All of these Tight ends did slightly better or worse than Pitta. And in perspective to receivers, Larry Fitzgerald 55%, Edelman 56%, Golden Tate 50%, Jamison Crowder 50%, Tavon Austin 40%. All of these receivers caught at least 50 passes and their percentages aren't much better than Pitta. plus if you watched the games last year, very rarely were the passes to Pitta on target. Many times he had to reach up over his head or make a shoestring catch which hinders your ability tomove after catching the pass.

Pitta did have 37 first downs, which IMO is pretty good for a tight end. There were only 6 tight ends that had more first downs: Greg Olson (54), Jimmy Graham (45), Zach Ertz (42), Kyle Rudolph (50), Jordan Reed (41) and Travis Kelce (55).
And you may notice that there really wasn't mch of a receiving threat other than these tight ends for their respective team, except for Jimmy Graham (Doug Baldwin), Travis Kelce (Jeremy Maclin) and Jordan Reed (Jackson and Garcon). The others were the primary receivers for their teams, especially Rudolph with Bradford just dumping it to running backs and tight ends.

Actually, there's a HUGE difference between those numbers. Look at this way... the average between Perriman, Wallace, Steve and Aiken, in terms of first downs/catch, was roughly 59%.

In order for Pitta to get to a number like that, he would have needed about 14 more first downs. That's close to a first down a game.

If you don't think a first down a game is a big deal, then you didn't watch a lot of our games last year or frankly any NFL game. I can point to several games where a single first down was the difference between a W and an L.

And those numbers are even worse if you look at it from a per-target perspective. He's down around 30% conversion.

Again, you can take numbers out of context all day long and make them say whatever you want. 37 first downs sounds like a lot... if you don't take into account how many catches they actually have or how many times they are targeted.

okay so since you watched a lot of games, how many of those targets and catches were on balls thrown 5 yards downfield on a 3-10 or longer?? You cant expect someone to catch the ball and run 10 yards before being gang tackled. I also wouldn't bring in the target factor. You had to have seen Flacco overthrow him or throw it at his feet when hes rushed multiple times. The only it counts as a target is because Flacco had to throw it in the vicinity of someone to avoid intentional grounding. A better stat would be how many times Pitta was targeted on a pass further downfield than the first down marker or how many times he caught a pass within 4-5 yards of the first down marker. I guarantee there isn't many

Probably many of them.

But that's partially because of the player he's throwing it to. Do you think Pitta's catch percentage would be higher if he were targeted more down the field? Because I don't see a skill set he brings that would make that likely. I think if he were targeted more down the field, you'd see a decreased reception count and a decreased first down reception count.

So what's the point?

I don't expect receivers to run 10 yards while breaking tackles, but I do expect them to get 2-3 YAC if needed, and he wasn't very good at that.

The Patriots entire offense is built upon throwing the ball short of the line of gain and letting their receivers get YAC. Saints offense is designed this way also, and you'll find similar traits to every quality passing game in this league.

okay, so instead of using your hypothetical situations, try using numbers. Pitta had 729 yards on 86 catches which is 8.5 yards per catch. He also average 3.7 YAC, which you said he should be getting 2-3. This also means that n average, he was catching a ball 4.8 yards down field. So I reiterate, on third and long, or second and long, they target him short (less than 5 yrds) and expect him to break off for the first down. I feel that if you average a yar under 10 yards per reception, you should have a lot of first downs. And everyone likes to make comparisons to NE. Sorry to break it to you, nobody is like NE. You can bring up NO but they've been less successful than Bmore the last half decade so why would we want that? You wont find another team that has success like NE has had with the types of players they have. Just as a comparison, Minnesota liked the short plays too, look where that got them...

1. I'll be happy to dig into those numbers further when I get a chance. My suspicion is that you'll find those numbers aren't what you think they are.

2. Whether or not the Saints as a TEAM have been more successful or not has nothing to do with conversation. Now you're lumping in other things like how bad their defense/ST is into a conversation about how effective their offense is, which are two completely separate things.

Offensively, the Saints are miles ahead of the Ravens and have been for some time. That's what's relevant here. It doesn't matter whether as a team they're more successful, because there's other factors that go into W/L record other than just your offense (obviously). Fairly simple... Ravens would love to have the Saints productivity on offense, and the Saints would love to have the Ravens productivity on defense.

BlueHenToRaven · 2017-05-04T17:22:50Z

2 hours ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

3 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

Easy on that Blue Hen drank. Boyle has the chance to be great? I think he has a chance to be good and I think he will be a big contributor to this team, but using the term great is a bit over the top. It is extremely unlikely that we would cut Maxx. He would have to have an absolutely terrible camp for the FO to release a second rounder in his 3rd year. Even though he has only played 1 year that one year was much more impressive than Art Browns first 2 and we kept him a third year. You cant just write him off because he was injured last year and your a Delaware fan. I know its hard to think back that far but he showed promise in his rookie season...He actually made some really spectacular catches while working with 3 different QBs. He actually has more receptions than Boyle who has played more games. Not that, that necessarily means anything. I think they will both be on the team and they compliment each other well. Williams is your more athletic pass catching TE and Boyle is more of your blocking TE who I expect to take over a lot of Juices blocking duties. But they are both well rounded guys and should be able to contribute this year.

I meant he will eventually be axed, not immediately. And I see Boyle moving to more of a receiving FB position. And any and all players have a chance to be great....

JD08 · 2017-05-04T17:24:09Z

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

2 hours ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

3 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

I will caution you... last year Pitta wasn't moving the chains at all. Not only was he not getting YAC, he also wasn't moving the chains. He had one of the lower percentages of receptions for first downs among the primary pass catchers last season.

Pitta had 86 catches last year and 37 first downs which is 43%. Steve Smith Last year had 70 catches for 39 first downs which is 55% roughly. There isn't much difference between the numbers. Compared to other starting TE's, Charles Clay was 38%, Ryan griffin was 38%, Will Tye 33%, Larry Donnel 20%, Jason Witten 47%, Julious Thomas 50%, Vernon Davis 50%, Jermaine Gresham 51%, Delanie Walker and Zach Ertz 53%. All of these Tight ends did slightly better or worse than Pitta. And in perspective to receivers, Larry Fitzgerald 55%, Edelman 56%, Golden Tate 50%, Jamison Crowder 50%, Tavon Austin 40%. All of these receivers caught at least 50 passes and their percentages aren't much better than Pitta. plus if you watched the games last year, very rarely were the passes to Pitta on target. Many times he had to reach up over his head or make a shoestring catch which hinders your ability tomove after catching the pass.

Pitta did have 37 first downs, which IMO is pretty good for a tight end. There were only 6 tight ends that had more first downs: Greg Olson (54), Jimmy Graham (45), Zach Ertz (42), Kyle Rudolph (50), Jordan Reed (41) and Travis Kelce (55).
And you may notice that there really wasn't mch of a receiving threat other than these tight ends for their respective team, except for Jimmy Graham (Doug Baldwin), Travis Kelce (Jeremy Maclin) and Jordan Reed (Jackson and Garcon). The others were the primary receivers for their teams, especially Rudolph with Bradford just dumping it to running backs and tight ends.

Thanks for the stats, kind of tired of complaints for a TE when it's not that big of a need with all the depth that's there, yes they have been injured before but I'd bet money it don't happen like that again. Doesn't make sense to me to draft a TE in the 1st rd when we have other concerns

txrave · 2017-05-04T17:31:58Z

Why is LeG Blount not in the FA discussion?

rmcjacket23 · 2017-05-04T17:32:13Z

58 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

1 hour ago, b93333 said:

2 hours ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

3 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

Moves the chains? He set a new NFL record for the most "failed receptions"... remember that stat? It roughly meant a reception that didn't get close to the 1st down marker.

37 first downs and a first down rate of 43%. 37 first downs by anyone is pretty good. Also remember the passes he caught were more likely than not in a 3rd and long situation with the ball being thrown 5 yards down field.

1. And that's the reason he's catching those passes... because the defense is allowing him to. He's not a threat for YAC, and so they will let him sit down 2-3 years short of the line of gain and catch passes all day long.

If anything, that pads his stats, not helps them. It inflates his reception total while yielding very little value to the offense on that play. I guess you could argue it makes for a shorter punt?

2. I look at it this way... the FO tells you everything you need to know.

Career year for Pitta in receptions and yardage, and he played the whole season.

And then he was asked to take a significant paycut.

I'd like to know how many players you think this happens to.

he averaged almost 4 YAC so youre telling me they just let him sit 2-3 yards under the line to gain? I doubt that. And he was asked to take a pay cut due to injuries, The Ravens do that to most players who suffer 1, let alone 2,career threatening injuries. And they haven't asked him to take a pay cut this year. Weve read articles talking about it, but no actual offer yet... Hes one hit away from his hit popping again, so Id have him take a pay cut too

1. Yes, because a 4 YAC includes ALL PASS PLAYS, not just 3rd down conversions. That includes receptions he's making on 1st or 2nd down where there isn't 10 bodies within 5-10 yards of the LOS.

Not really hard to understand. Defenses play differently on third down than they do on 1st down.

2. Injuries played a small factor in them asking for a paycut, but that also doesn't make any sense, given he just played a full season. Again, how many players do you know coming off a fully health, career season, were asked to take a paycut?

3. Yes, he's already taken the paycut for this year, just like he did last year. Its documented already.

http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2017/3/22/15020838/details-on-the-dennis-pitta-contract-restructure-released-tight-end-ben-watson

Was originally due a $5.5M salary for this season and for 2018, and will now make $3M this season, and $3M next season.

He took a $2.5M paycut in 2017 and in 2018.

Swift 1 · 2017-05-04T17:40:43Z

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Qualifying participants, of course.

Think failed receptions is a useless stat.

eze17 · 2017-05-04T17:41:56Z

33 minutes ago, eze17 said:

59 minutes ago, budkretz said:

Don't understand why we did not trade back in 1st round to get an extra pick in 3rd round. If Humphrey is a starter right off that means J Smith or B Carr are injured. To start the year the DBs are Smith, Carr, Weddle and Jefferson, T Young is nickel and L Webb is dime - this means Humphrey your #1 pick is special teams and he is not a return man. With an extra pick we could get one of the better running backs or second wave of WR to at least bolster what we have on offense. And by picking in the 20s we would have secured one of the 3 bog O-linemen and only have one position to worry about. We'd still be in a position to get Bowser, Wormley and T Williams (at least 2 out of 3) As of today we have 2 spots on o-line we are unsure of. We have 3 WRs that have experience and defenses don't have to focus on Wallace or Perriman and they can be covered man-to-man. Defenses will allow Pitta to catch 200 passes since he only nets about 5 yards and had worst percentage of moving the chains. The other TEs are old, injured, suspended or on IR Dixon is out 4 games . Does West keep DC's up at nights planning their defense against the Ravens? All you need is a vanilla defense on 1st & 2nd downs and on 3rd you blitz past a line with 3 /5 proven players. Unless Ozzie can find a trade to bring in a playmaker our offense is going to struggle. No matter how good the Ravens defense is we will give up 15-20 points a game. Unless Marty M comes up with brilliant game plans I don't see the offense having big numbers. Yes the defense should be much improved and we will stay in most games because of that. But to expect a ball hawking team like we had in 2000 under Pees is probably wishful thinking. I hope I am wrong and I will root until the end , but I can't see a record above 8-8.

Why would we have Webb playing dime CB? I can't fathom how you would consider us not playing Humphery in that position. More than likely, we'll have Canady as a 5th CB, and he was doing a fine job playing ST until he was injured. Humphery will more than likely be given every opportunity to compete for Carr's spot, but likely will be in nickle/dime packages. In any case, if you haven't been watching Raven's games the last few years, we have had so many problems fielding a competitive secondary late in the season, it will be a relief to have capable guys who can come in and play at a high level. Webb may see some time at CB, but my prediction is that would be very limited and only if the injury bug hits us during a game. He's going to be the main back up safety,(and wouldn't be surprised if he does some return work also) not a full time CB.

In my ideal world, we play a lot more dime packages (something we literally played none of last season) and Webb is part of that package, as a coverage guy either at CB or Safety (in Dime I'm not sure it really matters).

Lack of depth/quality player at ILB to me means we should put more secondary players out there, especially on passing downs. Finding a way to get Weddle/Jefferson/Webb on the field at the same time seems like a good idea to me.

Not saying Webb should not be on the field: far from it! The poster I was responding to said Webb would play dime CB, with Humphrey relegated to special teams, which I find ludicrious. We did not draft a guy #16 overall to play him on ST, that's the point I was making. I've no doubt that we will find ways to get Webb involved. But to place Webb over Humphrey at the CB position is, frankly, far fetched in my opinion. As a hybrid, yes, I could see that if the Raven's & Pees feel comfortable going in that direction.

As far as utilizing dime packages, hopefully with the addition of Jefferson, Carr and Humphreys we will have more confidence playing a variety of deep packages. I know that I feel a lot better having depth in the secondary and that a Jimmy Smith injury possibly won't cripple us like it has the last few years.

rmcjacket23 · 2017-05-04T17:43:08Z

Why is LeG Blount not in the FA discussion?

Because he really doesn't add much skill set to the offense.

J.O.14 · 2017-05-04T17:43:11Z

1 hour ago, billiejean said:

2 hours ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

3 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

3 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

Easy on that Blue Hen drank. Boyle has the chance to be great? I think he has a chance to be good and I think he will be a big contributor to this team, but using the term great is a bit over the top. It is extremely unlikely that we would cut Maxx. He would have to have an absolutely terrible camp for the FO to release a second rounder in his 3rd year. Even though he has only played 1 year that one year was much more impressive than Art Browns first 2 and we kept him a third year. You cant just write him off because he was injured last year and your a Delaware fan. I know its hard to think back that far but he showed promise in his rookie season...He actually made some really spectacular catches while working with 3 different QBs. He actually has more receptions than Boyle who has played more games. Not that, that necessarily means anything. I think they will both be on the team and they compliment each other well. Williams is your more athletic pass catching TE and Boyle is more of your blocking TE who I expect to take over a lot of Juices blocking duties. But they are both well rounded guys and should be able to contribute this year.

I meant he will eventually be axed, not immediately. And I see Boyle moving to more of a receiving FB position. And any and all players have a chance to be great....

Why will he eventually be axed? If he builds off his rookie year, Pitta will go before Maxx will. Not to mention he was only a 20 year old rookie I think, so he's only 22 with plenty of room to grow. You don't give up on a player that young that fast who has shown promise.

J.O.14 · 2017-05-04T17:45:34Z

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

1 hour ago, b93333 said:

2 hours ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

3 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

3 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

Moves the chains? He set a new NFL record for the most "failed receptions"... remember that stat? It roughly meant a reception that didn't get close to the 1st down marker.

37 first downs and a first down rate of 43%. 37 first downs by anyone is pretty good. Also remember the passes he caught were more likely than not in a 3rd and long situation with the ball being thrown 5 yards down field.

1. And that's the reason he's catching those passes... because the defense is allowing him to. He's not a threat for YAC, and so they will let him sit down 2-3 years short of the line of gain and catch passes all day long.

If anything, that pads his stats, not helps them. It inflates his reception total while yielding very little value to the offense on that play. I guess you could argue it makes for a shorter punt?

2. I look at it this way... the FO tells you everything you need to know.

Career year for Pitta in receptions and yardage, and he played the whole season.

And then he was asked to take a significant paycut.

I'd like to know how many players you think this happens to.

he averaged almost 4 YAC so youre telling me they just let him sit 2-3 yards under the line to gain? I doubt that. And he was asked to take a pay cut due to injuries, The Ravens do that to most players who suffer 1, let alone 2,career threatening injuries. And they haven't asked him to take a pay cut this year. Weve read articles talking about it, but no actual offer yet... Hes one hit away from his hit popping again, so Id have him take a pay cut too

Pitta did take a pay cut.

J.O.14 · 2017-05-04T17:47:48Z

50 minutes ago, eze17 said:

1 hour ago, budkretz said:

Don't understand why we did not trade back in 1st round to get an extra pick in 3rd round. If Humphrey is a starter right off that means J Smith or B Carr are injured. To start the year the DBs are Smith, Carr, Weddle and Jefferson, T Young is nickel and L Webb is dime - this means Humphrey your #1 pick is special teams and he is not a return man. With an extra pick we could get one of the better running backs or second wave of WR to at least bolster what we have on offense. And by picking in the 20s we would have secured one of the 3 bog O-linemen and only have one position to worry about. We'd still be in a position to get Bowser, Wormley and T Williams (at least 2 out of 3) As of today we have 2 spots on o-line we are unsure of. We have 3 WRs that have experience and defenses don't have to focus on Wallace or Perriman and they can be covered man-to-man. Defenses will allow Pitta to catch 200 passes since he only nets about 5 yards and had worst percentage of moving the chains. The other TEs are old, injured, suspended or on IR Dixon is out 4 games . Does West keep DC's up at nights planning their defense against the Ravens? All you need is a vanilla defense on 1st & 2nd downs and on 3rd you blitz past a line with 3 /5 proven players. Unless Ozzie can find a trade to bring in a playmaker our offense is going to struggle. No matter how good the Ravens defense is we will give up 15-20 points a game. Unless Marty M comes up with brilliant game plans I don't see the offense having big numbers. Yes the defense should be much improved and we will stay in most games because of that. But to expect a ball hawking team like we had in 2000 under Pees is probably wishful thinking. I hope I am wrong and I will root until the end , but I can't see a record above 8-8.

Why would we have Webb playing dime CB? I can't fathom how you would consider us not playing Humphery in that position. More than likely, we'll have Canady as a 5th CB, and he was doing a fine job playing ST until he was injured. Humphery will more than likely be given every opportunity to compete for Carr's spot, but likely will be in nickle/dime packages. In any case, if you haven't been watching Raven's games the last few years, we have had so many problems fielding a competitive secondary late in the season, it will be a relief to have capable guys who can come in and play at a high level. Webb may see some time at CB, but my prediction is that would be very limited and only if the injury bug hits us during a game. He's going to be the main back up safety,(and wouldn't be surprised if he does some return work also) not a full time CB.

In my ideal world, we play a lot more dime packages (something we literally played none of last season) and Webb is part of that package, as a coverage guy either at CB or Safety (in Dime I'm not sure it really matters).

Lack of depth/quality player at ILB to me means we should put more secondary players out there, especially on passing downs. Finding a way to get Weddle/Jefferson/Webb on the field at the same time seems like a good idea to me.

I agree with this. Putting Jefferson down in the box allows him to do what he's good at. He can stop the run and can definitely cover TEs and backs out of the backfield. This allows us to get Webb involved, who actually wasn't that bad for us last year....

Swift 1 · 2017-05-04T17:48:40Z

Catching passes is not a bad thing. It is not even pathetically mediocre.

rmcjacket23 · 2017-05-04T17:52:18Z

Catching passes is not a bad thing. It is not even pathetically mediocre.

Depends on what the caught pass yields us...

rainbowrider · 2017-05-04T17:52:47Z

Darren Waller...Big(6'6: 255 lbs)...speed...Sounds like a slot receiver to me!!!

BlueHenToRaven · 2017-05-04T17:56:28Z

16 minutes ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

40 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

59 minutes ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

2 hours ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

3 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

I will caution you... last year Pitta wasn't moving the chains at all. Not only was he not getting YAC, he also wasn't moving the chains. He had one of the lower percentages of receptions for first downs among the primary pass catchers last season.

Pitta had 86 catches last year and 37 first downs which is 43%. Steve Smith Last year had 70 catches for 39 first downs which is 55% roughly. There isn't much difference between the numbers. Compared to other starting TE's, Charles Clay was 38%, Ryan griffin was 38%, Will Tye 33%, Larry Donnel 20%, Jason Witten 47%, Julious Thomas 50%, Vernon Davis 50%, Jermaine Gresham 51%, Delanie Walker and Zach Ertz 53%. All of these Tight ends did slightly better or worse than Pitta. And in perspective to receivers, Larry Fitzgerald 55%, Edelman 56%, Golden Tate 50%, Jamison Crowder 50%, Tavon Austin 40%. All of these receivers caught at least 50 passes and their percentages aren't much better than Pitta. plus if you watched the games last year, very rarely were the passes to Pitta on target. Many times he had to reach up over his head or make a shoestring catch which hinders your ability tomove after catching the pass.

Pitta did have 37 first downs, which IMO is pretty good for a tight end. There were only 6 tight ends that had more first downs: Greg Olson (54), Jimmy Graham (45), Zach Ertz (42), Kyle Rudolph (50), Jordan Reed (41) and Travis Kelce (55).
And you may notice that there really wasn't mch of a receiving threat other than these tight ends for their respective team, except for Jimmy Graham (Doug Baldwin), Travis Kelce (Jeremy Maclin) and Jordan Reed (Jackson and Garcon). The others were the primary receivers for their teams, especially Rudolph with Bradford just dumping it to running backs and tight ends.

Actually, there's a HUGE difference between those numbers. Look at this way... the average between Perriman, Wallace, Steve and Aiken, in terms of first downs/catch, was roughly 59%.

In order for Pitta to get to a number like that, he would have needed about 14 more first downs. That's close to a first down a game.

If you don't think a first down a game is a big deal, then you didn't watch a lot of our games last year or frankly any NFL game. I can point to several games where a single first down was the difference between a W and an L.

And those numbers are even worse if you look at it from a per-target perspective. He's down around 30% conversion.

Again, you can take numbers out of context all day long and make them say whatever you want. 37 first downs sounds like a lot... if you don't take into account how many catches they actually have or how many times they are targeted.

okay so since you watched a lot of games, how many of those targets and catches were on balls thrown 5 yards downfield on a 3-10 or longer?? You cant expect someone to catch the ball and run 10 yards before being gang tackled. I also wouldn't bring in the target factor. You had to have seen Flacco overthrow him or throw it at his feet when hes rushed multiple times. The only it counts as a target is because Flacco had to throw it in the vicinity of someone to avoid intentional grounding. A better stat would be how many times Pitta was targeted on a pass further downfield than the first down marker or how many times he caught a pass within 4-5 yards of the first down marker. I guarantee there isn't many

Probably many of them.

But that's partially because of the player he's throwing it to. Do you think Pitta's catch percentage would be higher if he were targeted more down the field? Because I don't see a skill set he brings that would make that likely. I think if he were targeted more down the field, you'd see a decreased reception count and a decreased first down reception count.

So what's the point?

I don't expect receivers to run 10 yards while breaking tackles, but I do expect them to get 2-3 YAC if needed, and he wasn't very good at that.

The Patriots entire offense is built upon throwing the ball short of the line of gain and letting their receivers get YAC. Saints offense is designed this way also, and you'll find similar traits to every quality passing game in this league.

okay, so instead of using your hypothetical situations, try using numbers. Pitta had 729 yards on 86 catches which is 8.5 yards per catch. He also average 3.7 YAC, which you said he should be getting 2-3. This also means that n average, he was catching a ball 4.8 yards down field. So I reiterate, on third and long, or second and long, they target him short (less than 5 yrds) and expect him to break off for the first down. I feel that if you average a yar under 10 yards per reception, you should have a lot of first downs. And everyone likes to make comparisons to NE. Sorry to break it to you, nobody is like NE. You can bring up NO but they've been less successful than Bmore the last half decade so why would we want that? You wont find another team that has success like NE has had with the types of players they have. Just as a comparison, Minnesota liked the short plays too, look where that got them...

1. I'll be happy to dig into those numbers further when I get a chance. My suspicion is that you'll find those numbers aren't what you think they are.

2. Whether or not the Saints as a TEAM have been more successful or not has nothing to do with conversation. Now you're lumping in other things like how bad their defense/ST is into a conversation about how effective their offense is, which are two completely separate things.

Offensively, the Saints are miles ahead of the Ravens and have been for some time. That's what's relevant here. It doesn't matter whether as a team they're more successful, because there's other factors that go into W/L record other than just your offense (obviously). Fairly simple... Ravens would love to have the Saints productivity on offense, and the Saints would love to have the Ravens productivity on defense.

okay, speaking of going off topic. Were going on about tight ends, hence everything I have said. I promise you that the saints don't throw under 5 yards to their tight ends and hope he gets enough YAC to get a first down. That may have worked with Cooks and Snead but I guarantee not for the tight end.

I concur that their D/ST is trash, but you said that they succeed by dumping and getting a lot of YAC. Well over 50% of Drew Brees passing yards were yards in air rather than YAC. In fact, only 4 QBs had a higher % of YAC vs Yards in air. Stafford, Smith, Bradford and Eli. And actually, Flacco had few yards in air per attempt than Brees, meaning Brees has more success throwing the ball down field. He has almost 2800 yards in the air as opposed to 2300 YAC. To me, it seems the saints have more success throwing the ball downfield more.

Dumping only works when you have quick receivers. Expect that number to drop without cooks

BlueHenToRaven · 2017-05-04T17:57:52Z

35 minutes ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

2 hours ago, b93333 said:

2 hours ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

3 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

3 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

3 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

4 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

Moves the chains? He set a new NFL record for the most "failed receptions"... remember that stat? It roughly meant a reception that didn't get close to the 1st down marker.

37 first downs and a first down rate of 43%. 37 first downs by anyone is pretty good. Also remember the passes he caught were more likely than not in a 3rd and long situation with the ball being thrown 5 yards down field.

1. And that's the reason he's catching those passes... because the defense is allowing him to. He's not a threat for YAC, and so they will let him sit down 2-3 years short of the line of gain and catch passes all day long.

If anything, that pads his stats, not helps them. It inflates his reception total while yielding very little value to the offense on that play. I guess you could argue it makes for a shorter punt?

2. I look at it this way... the FO tells you everything you need to know.

Career year for Pitta in receptions and yardage, and he played the whole season.

And then he was asked to take a significant paycut.

I'd like to know how many players you think this happens to.

he averaged almost 4 YAC so youre telling me they just let him sit 2-3 yards under the line to gain? I doubt that. And he was asked to take a pay cut due to injuries, The Ravens do that to most players who suffer 1, let alone 2,career threatening injuries. And they haven't asked him to take a pay cut this year. Weve read articles talking about it, but no actual offer yet... Hes one hit away from his hit popping again, so Id have him take a pay cut too

Pitta did take a pay cut.

article link? Mustve missed that one

rmcjacket23 · 2017-05-04T18:06:19Z

20 minutes ago, J.O.14 said:

44 minutes ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

2 hours ago, b93333 said:

3 hours ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

3 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

3 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

3 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

4 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

Moves the chains? He set a new NFL record for the most "failed receptions"... remember that stat? It roughly meant a reception that didn't get close to the 1st down marker.

37 first downs and a first down rate of 43%. 37 first downs by anyone is pretty good. Also remember the passes he caught were more likely than not in a 3rd and long situation with the ball being thrown 5 yards down field.

1. And that's the reason he's catching those passes... because the defense is allowing him to. He's not a threat for YAC, and so they will let him sit down 2-3 years short of the line of gain and catch passes all day long.

If anything, that pads his stats, not helps them. It inflates his reception total while yielding very little value to the offense on that play. I guess you could argue it makes for a shorter punt?

2. I look at it this way... the FO tells you everything you need to know.

Career year for Pitta in receptions and yardage, and he played the whole season.

And then he was asked to take a significant paycut.

I'd like to know how many players you think this happens to.

he averaged almost 4 YAC so youre telling me they just let him sit 2-3 yards under the line to gain? I doubt that. And he was asked to take a pay cut due to injuries, The Ravens do that to most players who suffer 1, let alone 2,career threatening injuries. And they haven't asked him to take a pay cut this year. Weve read articles talking about it, but no actual offer yet... Hes one hit away from his hit popping again, so Id have him take a pay cut too

Pitta did take a pay cut.

article link? Mustve missed that one

I posted it in my response below.

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