Your Advice to the Latest Ravens OC

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

Well, since the boards are closing soon, this may your last opportunity to give some feedback to Marty, our latest in a long line of Harbaugh OC's.

Honestly, if we see another steady diet of checkdown offense, he wont make it past the BYE. Some call it the West Coast Offense. The problem here, is Joe is not a west coast Qb, square peg in round hole. 

Joe has won a ring already, throwing deep passes, we brought in Perriman to get past defenders, only to check down to Juice.

We used to see curls, deep crosses, outs, (to Mason, Boldin, Torrey) and now its a checkdown offense. 

Marty needs to be watching past tape on Joe, sees what he does well, draw up similar plays,  and build the offense around that. Play to your players strengths, not make players play to your play calls. 

I did like the frequent crossing routes Marty used last season, but for whatever reason,  we abandoned almost every other possible route options Joe used to have called from previous OC's, and that actually worked. Lets see some creativity this year, not predictabile vanilla offense, lets see Joe change plays at the los, based on what the D is showing him. Lets see some growth from our Franchise QB, and an OC who can call plays based on the personnell he has, not what he wants to do. Thoughts?

 

 

[RayRayRaven]

37 minutes ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

Well, since the boards are closing soon, this may your last opportunity to give some feedback to Marty, our latest in a long line of Harbaugh OC's.

Honestly, if we see another steady diet of checkdown offense, he wont make it past the BYE. Some call it the West Coast Offense. The problem here, is Joe is not a west coast Qb, square peg in round hole. 

Joe has won a ring already, throwing deep passes, we brought in Perriman to get past defenders, only to check down to Juice.

We used to see curls, deep crosses, outs, (to Mason, Boldin, Torrey) and now its a checkdown offense. 

Marty needs to be watching past tape on Joe, sees what he does well, draw up similar plays,  and build the offense around that. Play to your players strengths, not make players play to your play calls. 

I did like the frequent crossing routes Marty used last season, but for whatever reason,  we abandoned almost every other possible route options Joe used to have called from previous OC's, and that actually worked. Lets see some creativity this year, not predictabile vanilla offense, lets see Joe change plays at the los, based on what the D is showing him. Lets see some growth from our Franchise QB, and an OC who can call plays based on the personnell he has, not what he wants to do. Thoughts?

 

 

gawd u know a thang or to cuz you seen a thang or two

truar words was nevah wrote down joe is not a read and react kinda guy he is this centuarys version of Darrel lamonica

joe is not a thinkin qb he is a chuck it long qb he need a runnin game to be that but u sur know wher joe is still doan thing our office do though they thing hes gonna thing his way threw a game

Edited April 23 by RayRayRaven

[The Raven]

The idea that Joe is not capable of being a WCO QB is just flat out wrong since his best year came in Kubiak's WCO. The issue is he needs a QB coach that will keep him reined in with good feet. We need an OC that drills into his head -- like Kubiak did -- that you need to throw to your reads and not wait for the deep ball. That's the advice I guess I'd give. Fix Joe's technique and work with him on making fewer risky decisions. WCO works in rhythm. It works when you take what the defense gives you. 

I'd also advise using a run scheme that fits the personnel. You know, like not using a tight zone with a weak line. If the line is mobile run wide zone. If they're slow, run gap and power til a defense crumbles.

And for pete's sake stop wasting people's talent. He's gone now but Juice was woefully underused by every OC we've had. Kamar, yes, even Kamar, was underused. We could've used a big, strong handed receiver with solid route running and the ability to break tackles. Yet, we didn't even use Kamar. We needed a center that could hold his own in a bar fight and we trot out pathetic ole Zuttah, when we have a pancake machine in Jensen sitting on the bench.

Too often, we ask round pegs to fill square holes, when we already have square pegs. Too often, we get guys that fill a certain role, and then we use them in another. I really think there's a disconnect between the FO and the coaching staff. Our personnel rarely reflects our scheme and philosophy. I think Pees and the FO are finally on the same page, but I don't think our offensive staff has ever connected with the draft team.

Edited April 23 by The Raven

[RayRayRaven]

16 minutes ago, The Raven said:

The idea that Joe is not capable of being a WCO QB is just flat out wrong since his best year came in Kubiak's WCO. The issue is he needs a QB coach that will keep him reined in with good feet. We need an OC that drills into his head -- like Kubiak did -- that you need to throw to your reads and not wait for the deep ball. That's the advice I guess I'd give. Fix Joe's technique and work with him on making fewer risky decisions. WCO works in rhythm. It works when you take what the defense gives you. 

I'd also advise using a run scheme that fits the personnel. You know, like not using a tight zone with a weak line. If the line is mobile run wide zone. If they're slow, run gap and power til a defense crumbles.

And for pete's sake stop wasting people's talent. He's gone now but Juice was woefully underused by every OC we've had. Kamar, yes, even Kamar, was underused. We could've used a big, strong handed receiver with solid route running and the ability to break tackles. Yet, we didn't even use Kamar. We needed a center that could hold his own in a bar fight and we trot out pathetic ole Zuttah, when we have a pancake machine in Jensen sitting on the bench.

Too often, we ask round pegs to fill square holes, when we already have square pegs. Too often, we get guys that fill a certain role, and then we use them in another. I really think there's a disconnect between the FO and the coaching staff. Our personnel rarely reflects our scheme and philosophy. I think Pees and the FO are finally on the same page, but I don't think our offensive staff has ever connected with the draft team.

red it but hav to say didnt make a lick of out of it so our d is on the page but our o is not?  was that it?  or was it joe needs guys? yah he do he aint gonna do it himself but we been sayin thatg for yrs now r leadin receiva has been steve smith kamar aiken marlon brown had a good yr when they took joes bolden away. in the end joe still like to lock on a guy give him weapons and he woan read the d he gonna lock on and fire his heat seekin misile

Edited April 23 by RayRayRaven

[redrum52]

29 minutes ago, The Raven said:

The idea that Joe is not capable of being a WCO QB is just flat out wrong since his best year came in Kubiak's WCO. The issue is he needs a QB coach that will keep him reined in with good feet. We need an OC that drills into his head -- like Kubiak did -- that you need to throw to your reads and not wait for the deep ball. That's the advice I guess I'd give. Fix Joe's technique and work with him on making fewer risky decisions. WCO works in rhythm. It works when you take what the defense gives you. 

I'd also advise using a run scheme that fits the personnel. You know, like not using a tight zone with a weak line. If the line is mobile run wide zone. If they're slow, run gap and power til a defense crumbles.

And for pete's sake stop wasting people's talent. He's gone now but Juice was woefully underused by every OC we've had. Kamar, yes, even Kamar, was underused. We could've used a big, strong handed receiver with solid route running and the ability to break tackles. Yet, we didn't even use Kamar. We needed a center that could hold his own in a bar fight and we trot out pathetic ole Zuttah, when we have a pancake machine in Jensen sitting on the bench.

Too often, we ask round pegs to fill square holes, when we already have square pegs. Too often, we get guys that fill a certain role, and then we use them in another. I really think there's a disconnect between the FO and the coaching staff. Our personnel rarely reflects our scheme and philosophy. I think Pees and the FO are finally on the same page, but I don't think our offensive staff has ever connected with the draft team.

This is what has been the problem for years.  I think Kubiak and Caldwell were the only ones to do this well.  People will say 13 was a failure, which it was, but mainly because of some of the worst OL play I've seen from a Ravens squad.  People never seem to be used to their strength and it always feels like they try to make things as complicated as possible.  The offense put up great numbers in post season play with Hurst starting.  That's play calling and scheme.  Team gets way too predictable.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

 

 

4 hours ago, The Raven said:

The idea that Joe is not capable of being a WCO QB is just flat out wrong since his best year came in Kubiak's WCO. The issue is he needs a QB coach that will keep him reined in with good feet. We need an OC that drills into his head -- like Kubiak did -- that you need to throw to your reads and not wait for the deep ball. That's the advice I guess I'd give. Fix Joe's technique and work with him on making fewer risky decisions. WCO works in rhythm. It works when you take what the defense gives you. 

I'd also advise using a run scheme that fits the personnel. You know, like not using a tight zone with a weak line. If the line is mobile run wide zone. If they're slow, run gap and power til a defense crumbles.

And for pete's sake stop wasting people's talent. He's gone now but Juice was woefully underused by every OC we've had. Kamar, yes, even Kamar, was underused. We could've used a big, strong handed receiver with solid route running and the ability to break tackles. Yet, we didn't even use Kamar. We needed a center that could hold his own in a bar fight and we trot out pathetic ole Zuttah, when we have a pancake machine in Jensen sitting on the bench.

Too often, we ask round pegs to fill square holes, when we already have square pegs. Too often, we get guys that fill a certain role, and then we use them in another. I really think there's a disconnect between the FO and the coaching staff. Our personnel rarely reflects our scheme and philosophy. I think Pees and the FO are finally on the same page, but I don't think our offensive staff has ever connected with the draft team.

THANK YOU. Freaking thank you. 

 

Personally(spoiler) I think that's why we gotta take Lamp in the first and possibly plug him at C. If the team really thinks that  Lewis is a guard that's a move I fully support. 

 

There re are too many times where there's also a mismatch there and we just don't take advantage of it. For example, during the first steelers game there was a series where Perriman was consistently getting open vs Artie Burns. And he was making plays. Yet in the second half we never used it again. 

 

Its why I'm not happy we kept Marty. He called one good game this year. Along with continually abandoning the run(not entirely his fault since we had a grand total of two above average run blockers on the oline) he misuses so many people.

 

Theres a small part of me that wishes we fired Harbaugh and hired Shannahan to be HC. And I'm a Harbaugh fan as well. 

[The Raven]

9 minutes ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

Hey! Leave the roasting to me! It's not may 4th yet. Don't worry, I'm roasting myself first so yeah.

 

THANK YOU. Freaking thank you. 

 

Personally(spoiler) I think that's why we gotta take Lamp in the first and possibly plug him at C. If the team really thinks that  Lewis is a guard that's a move I fully support. 

 

There re are too many times where there's also a mismatch there and we just don't take advantage of it. For example, during the first steelers game there was a series where Perriman was consistently getting open vs Artie Burns. And he was making plays. Yet in the second half we never used it again. 

 

Its why I'm not happy we kept Marty. He called one good game this year. Along with continually abandoning the run(not entirely his fault since we had a grand total of two above average run blockers on the oline) he misuses so many people.

 

Theres a small part of me that wishes we fired Harbaugh and hired Shannahan to be HC. And I'm a Harbaugh fan as well. 

Just a small part? There's a very large part of me that wishes that. As much as he sometimes gets needlessly cute and sophisticated, he's aggressive as hell, creative, innovative, and uses his players well.

Another part of it is I think we suck at self scouting. I really don't think we're that good at evaluating our own guys and analyzing what they do.

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

1 hour ago, The Raven said:

Just a small part? There's a very large part of me that wishes that. As much as he sometimes gets needlessly cute and sophisticated, he's aggressive as hell, creative, innovative, and uses his players well.

Another part of it is I think we suck at self scouting. I really don't think we're that good at evaluating our own guys and analyzing what they do.

Exactly.

Evaluating the current talent we have, should be the TOP PRIORITY this off,season. What do these playmakers we have do best?

Why didnt Wallace work out in Minnesota? He was not used correctly to his skill level. 

For the love of Pete, create plays that take into account the players strengths, get the ball into the hands of these playmakers, where they can actually help you score, and win. 

Another poster was exactly right, when he said we constantly try and complicate things by trying to get players to do things they do not do well.

Kiss program, keep it simple stupid

 

[reed20]

My advice is no soft playcalling.

Edited April 23 by reed20

[ellicottraven]

Marty seems like a 'yes man' to his offensive play makers and not necessarily an OC that has his players respecting him out of how good he is and out of fear. Again that is from the outside looking in and just seeing how reluctant he was last year to take command and run the dang ball in critical situations. Just seeing the reactions of offensive players that have left here in Juice and Aiken basically calling him out implies that may indeed be the case.

So my advice to him would be to man up and take charge.

Edited April 24 by ellicottraven

[K-Dog]

My advice to the new OC?

Get the Old Bay Ribs at Mission BBQ.

They are amazing. 

[The Raven]

2 hours ago, K-Dog said:

My advice to the new OC?

Get the Old Bay Ribs at Mission BBQ.

They are amazing. 

Honestly this is the best advice to give. Good call K-Dog

[Maryland]

2 hours ago, K-Dog said:

My advice to the new OC?

Get the Old Bay Ribs at Mission BBQ.

They are amazing. 

Andy Nelson's BBQ >

-not off topic because Andy Nelson is a former Baltimore player  

Edited April 24 by Maryland

[JoeyFlex5]

Abandon the inside zone, it doesn't work unless your line has a very specific skill set. 

Use the damn speed we have on offense. Our qb has probably the 2nd strongest cannon in the league, no need to emphasize hitting fast guys in stride on crossing routes when our receivers can get downfield in a hurry and our qb can get it there with a flick of the wrist 

just take pitta off the field so joe can't default to him all the time 

use pre snap motions for once

[ALI624]

My advice is find the defense's weakness and exploit it, show no mercy. Also if a certain play or match up is having success keep going to it. Make the defense adjust to you not the other way around.

[redrum52]

38 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Abandon the inside zone, it doesn't work unless your line has a very specific skill set. 

Use the damn speed we have on offense. Our qb has probably the 2nd strongest cannon in the league, no need to emphasize hitting fast guys in stride on crossing routes when our receivers can get downfield in a hurry and our qb can get it there with a flick of the wrist 

just take pitta off the field so joe can't default to him all the time 

use pre snap motions for once

This is why I was hoping we cut him.  That and the stable of TEs we have.  Don't see why we don't put em to use.  This goes back to misuse of personnel.

 

Also, if you want to relive the glory days, a bunch of old games can be found on youtube in HD quality.  Watch or DL while you can.

Edited April 24 by redrum52

[The Raven]

27 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Abandon the inside zone, it doesn't work unless your line has a very specific skill set. 

Use the damn speed we have on offense. Our qb has probably the 2nd strongest cannon in the league, no need to emphasize hitting fast guys in stride on crossing routes when our receivers can get downfield in a hurry and our qb can get it there with a flick of the wrist 

just take pitta off the field so joe can't default to him all the time 

use pre snap motions for once

You're not wrong that the inside zone requires a specific skill set, but frankly, when the majority of teams in the NFL run the inside zone, I don't think that the skill set is that hard to find. You just need guys that, you know, aren't weak/small like Zuttah and Urschel and Wagner. It was dumb to use it with Zuttah and Wagner on the line, but using OL with even average strength, it should work. 

 

[Somerset Ravens]

Run the ball.

On third down do not throw a pass short of a first down.

Run the ball.

Throw deep passes regularly.

Run the ball.

Show imagination on offense

Run the ball.

[rmcjacket23]

19 minutes ago, Somerset Ravens said:

Run the ball.

On third down do not throw a pass short of a first down.

Run the ball.

Throw deep passes regularly.

Run the ball.

Show imagination on offense

Run the ball.

Will point out that 100% of the teams in the league rather routinely throw passes to receivers short of the line of gain on 3rd down, mostly because opposing defenses also know where the line of gain is and usually flood that area with defenders, thus making it difficult to get completions there.

In particular, QBs like Brady and Brees have made quite a career off throwing to receivers short of the line of gain and getting yards after the catch... which is a radical concept to our receiving core based on what I saw last season.

[Somerset Ravens]

55 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Will point out that 100% of the teams in the league rather routinely throw passes to receivers short of the line of gain on 3rd down, mostly because opposing defenses also know where the line of gain is and usually flood that area with defenders, thus making it difficult to get completions there.

In particular, QBs like Brady and Brees have made quite a career off throwing to receivers short of the line of gain and getting yards after the catch... which is a radical concept to our receiving core based on what I saw last season.

I was not talking about other teams. How did it work for us last year?

[trevorsteadman]

Throw the deep ball. Work on Flacco's footwork and reads. Flacco showed he can be a top quarterback in this league they need to surround him and prepare him better than they have the last couple years. And for god's sake can Baltimore get some wide receivers that can actually get 3 inches of separation?

[frozen joe flacco fan]

1) Hurst is the wurst OL in the NFL. Get rid of him & replace him with somebody, anybody, a warm body!

2) Insert Justin Tucker into the game as a WR. He's the best receiver we have.

3) Adjust your coaching style to match the special skill sets of the players rather than expecting them to adjust to your style; that includes the afore-mentioned zone blocking schemes which work well with certain offensive linemen but not others.

4) Find a center who can pull & block as well as hike the ball.

5) Find a way to use Keenan Reynolds in some running plays, e.g., the wildcat formation.

6) Ban John Harbaugh from making any 4th down calls. He is an excellent cheerleader but just an average, ego-centric coach who knows very little about offensive coordination.

7) If we get a sizeable lead, run the ball, run the ball and then run the ball. If that doesn't work, tell Sam Koch to punt the ball.

8) In the red zone, don't throw the ball into double, high low coverage near the goal line. Run the ball and if that doesn't work let the NFL's most accurate FG kicker & most-talented opera singer to kick the game-clinching FG.

9) Give Breshad Perriman his own personal juggs machine and require him to catch 100 balls a day after each practice while you distract him with a foam noodle.

10) Deploy a formation with Campanero, Wallace, Perriman and Woodhead as receivers with Boyle in the backfield as the blocking back/ 5th receiver all at the same time and dare a defensive backfield to cover it.

11) Go to Charm City to see The Wizard of Oz and ask him for a brain, a heart and some courage to coach the offense this year. You're gonna need it. So far, all The Wizard has done to help you is "addition by subtraction". Although I must admit, sometimes you need to get rid of the deadwood before you can bring in new lumber and getting rid of Zuttah was one step in the right direction. Hopefully, The Wizard of Oz can use some of his wizardry to draft a "Dream-Team" of draft picks.

Put more simply, just try to be a little bit more creative with your play-calling (no more vanilla ice-cream play-calling, thank you very much), leave your ego at home where it belongs and be a whole lot less predictable than you were last year. Otherwise, you and Coach Harbaugh will be job-searching again by season's end. Oh, and most of all, don't be like Kyle Shanahan and try to put your foot on your opponent's throat when you get a lead. Remember, your sole objective as a coordinator is to WIN, not to try to embarrass the other team. In other words, pigs get fat but hogs get slaughtered. Take what the defense will give you. Don't get greedy! Like some other bloggers have already stated, there's a reason why so many NFL QBs are throwing short passes that aren't long enough to get a first down w/o YAC. The defense is crowding that yardage marker with defenders.  

HINT: Obviously, some of the free advice offered above is sarcastic in nature although some of it is very subtle. I'll leave it to the local intelligencia to figure out which items are satirical and which ones are serious. 

 

 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

My advice would be to, come week 5 feature Dixon.

Run behind that boy.... he will carry 4-5 defenders on his back if needed at times. And hes a threat out of the backfield. Get on his back and take it to the playoffs. Commit to it and dont look back.

Oh and get some big nasties up front.

[The Raven]

1 hour ago, Somerset Ravens said:

I was not talking about other teams. How did it work for us last year?

The fact that it works for other teams and not us should indicate to an intelligent human that the idea works but our personnel sucks. 

You can't just talk about the Ravens in a vacuum and pretend that other teams don't exist because the reality is that other teams do exist and they do things well that we don't do well. The concept of "well, that team isn't us so we shouldn't make a comparison" is flat out stupid. Comparisons set a benchmark and they show you how to improve. Refusing to make a comparison is refusing to look at the bigger picture.

[mc_red23]

Mine's pretty basic really, don't Crap the bed. 

Oh, and run the ball! Thanks.

[Somerset Ravens]

20 minutes ago, The Raven said:

The fact that it works for other teams and not us should indicate to an intelligent human that the idea works but our personnel sucks. 

You can't just talk about the Ravens in a vacuum and pretend that other teams don't exist because the reality is that other teams do exist and they do things well that we don't do well. The concept of "well, that team isn't us so we shouldn't make a comparison" is flat out stupid. Comparisons set a benchmark and they show you how to improve. Refusing to make a comparison is refusing to look at the bigger picture.

This thread is about advice to the Ravens OC. When you give advice as to what works for the Patriots when our weapons  have different talents does not make sense. Do you expect Dennis Pitta to succeed on the same type of plays that Gronk does? We need to run plays that maximize the talents that our players posess. You seem to be missing my point.

[rmcjacket23]

2 hours ago, Somerset Ravens said:

I was not talking about other teams. How did it work for us last year?

Not very well. But then again, its not much different than what we did in prior years, and when it worked out, nobody complained about it.

We can do the opposite and just throw into crowded coverage beyond the sticks and pray for something to happen. Will certainly see an uptick in incompletions and interceptions doing that.

I referenced other teams for a specific purpose. There aren't any exotic play calls for third and long. The elite of the elite offenses do the same thing. They get the ball to a playmaker and ask him to make a play. 

The difference between them and us isn't the play call. The difference between them and us is the ability to make that play via the talent of the players.

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

3 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Not very well. But then again, its not much different than what we did in prior years, and when it worked out, nobody complained about it.

We can do the opposite and just throw into crowded coverage beyond the sticks and pray for something to happen. Will certainly see an uptick in incompletions and interceptions doing that.

I referenced other teams for a specific purpose. There aren't any exotic play calls for third and long. The elite of the elite offenses do the same thing. They get the ball to a playmaker and ask him to make a play. 

The difference between them and us isn't the play call. The difference between them and us is the ability to make that play via the talent of the players.

Or the ability of the qb to find the open read, and not have tunnel vision on his primary target, or.....to not see the safety to his left overloading the line, enroute to a safety blitz, but having blinders on, and not checking out of the play call, or calling a different protection

[rmcjacket23]

43 minutes ago, Somerset Ravens said:

This thread is about advice to the Ravens OC. When you give advice as to what works for the Patriots when our weapons  have different talents does not make sense. Do you expect Dennis Pitta to succeed on the same type of plays that Gronk does? We need to run plays that maximize the talents that our players posess. You seem to be missing my point.

This is the part of the game where you are challenged to provide specific plays (or even play) that "maximizes Pitta's talent" no a third and long play...

The easy part is saying "just draw up a play that maximizes talent". Saying it is the easy part. The part's that actually hard, and what separates coaches from fans, is figuring out exactly what that play is. Dennis Pitta isn't as talented as Gronk, and I'd have a hard time personally identifying what kind of play on a crucial third and long can be devised to play to Pitta' strengths. 

Best I could come up with is throwing him a jump ball over the middle in the seam, likely between two defenders. All that requires is an incredibly accurate throw, and the toughness to come down with the catch and likely get sandwiched while doing it. All while hanging your already somewhat fragile TE out to dry over the middle of the field.

Speed isn't his asset. Size isn't his asset. The ability to separate isn't his asset.

It seems like you're starting to realize the point that everybody is making... its a talent issue, not a playcalling issue. 

[rmcjacket23]

3 minutes ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

Or the ability of the qb to find the open read, and not have tunnel vision on his primary target, or.....to not see the safety to his left overloading the line, enroute to a safety blitz, but having blinders on, and not checking out of the play call, or calling a different protection

1. Assumes that there is an open read on those types of plays, which the film would tell you is rarely the case. The open read, in most third and long situations, is the guy he's throwing it to that's short of the sticks. There's a reason he's the open read.

2. In said cases, he's rarely the primary target. 

3. I agree on the lack of blitz recognition, but that's not frequently an issue on 3rd and long, because teams didn't bring exotic blitzes that often there.