Draft Rumor Mill

[JO_75]

Let me throw this question out here to everyone. Rumor Mill is crazy on where the QBs in the draft will go, who has interest in who, etc. We've seen the evolution of the league into a passing league in recent years where if you don't have a QB you won't succeed no matter what. See what happened to the Raiders when they lost Carr, or Indy without Manning and when Luck is injured. Yet you see a team like us who loses Flacco and yet are competitive with someone like Ryan Mallet. I think a lot of our success without Flacco was in part because we had a TEAM in place that can compete regardless of who the QB is. When you look at someone like the Browns or the Colts without Manning, you see where not having a QB did hurt them. Though ultimately what did it say about the 52 other members of the Colts when Manning went down and they were a 2-14 team or 1-15 team. 

Has the NFL created a monster in the fact that it forces teams to overdraft and overvalue quarterbacks in a way where they are forced to take bad quarterbacks just because the league says hey you need a QB to compete weekly. Look at how many wasted picks the Browns have made on QBs but yet they have one of the worst teams in the league every year regardless of who their QB is. They put so much stock into a QB that they forget the rest of the team. Then ultimately because of the need for a QB, and the over drafting of bad QBs, coaches and GM lose their jobs because said QB failed and busted. Thoughts?

[52520Andrew]

48 minutes ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

If we do I hope he's at guard. Not RT.

 

that being said if the unthinkable happens(we move Stanley to RT and Robinson at LT. Which is impossible) my rage will be incalculable.

I don't think even the Browns could be that stupid lol

[Deflated Football]

51 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Well.. how bout this logic for ya...

Whats the point of nice shiny toys if Flacco is getting pressure in his lap after 1 second and the RB's are getting hit 2 yds in the back field every play.

Perhaps Flacco could read a defense before the ball is snapped and get it out as quickly as possible, nullifying your statement. I've said before that we excel at grooming late round offensive linemen. And Terrance West had a pretty good YPC  percentage despite a crappy offensive line last season.  

[arnie_uk]

34 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

And how many top picks has he had? Most of those pre-2008 picks were top 10.

Every pick above 19 hes nailed.

 

Plus.. Flacco's been selected and turned down, Ray Rice, KO shouldve been if he hasnt, McPhee shouldve been if he hasnt yet, BWill prob shouldve made it 2 years ago, Wagner should have made it 2014 or last year, Juice, Tucker, Koch, Mosley, Stanley will eventually. Jimmy and Webb have each had a season where they were deserving. I think there are a couple who wouldve made it in 2012 if we werent playing in the SB.

4-5 players... 10+ that have deserved a spot.

Tell me which team has drafted the most since 2008?

I hate siding with sami but this post is just hot air. Ozzie was by far and away the best gm up until probably the past 5 or 6 years. Other teams have caught up and probably exceeded him.

No team has a historic track record like the ravens.

Many teams have a better current track record than the ravens.

That's simple facts. Out recent drafts have been poor which is why we have been floundering since 3 potential future hall of hamers left.

The young talent hasnt been up to scratch and when it was we didn't have cap space to keep em

[rossihunter2]

43 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

how many since 2008? only need 1 hand..

 

thats my point. He's lived off his early drafts. Most of those pro bowls have come from 5 players in particular...all drafted well over a decade ago PLUS

the answer is in fact 7 + justin tucker twice, zach orr and morgan cox at least

[Deflated Football]

Just now, arnie_uk said:

I hate siding with sami but this post is just hot air. Ozzie was by far and away the best gm up until probably the past 5 or 6 years. Other teams have caught up and probably exceeded him.

No team has a historic track record like the ravens.

Many teams have a better current track record than the ravens.

That's simple facts. Out recent drafts have been poor which is why we have been floundering since 3 potential future hall of hamers left.

The young talent hasnt been up to scratch and when it was we didn't have cap space to keep em

Don't bother Arnie. Ozzie is a god around here. 

[Deflated Football]

Just now, rossihunter2 said:

the answer is in fact 7 + justin tucker twice, zach orr and morgan cox at least

Wow, a kicker and a long snapper. All hail Ozzie. 

[Sami84]

Just now, rossihunter2 said:

the answer is in fact 7 + justin tucker twice, zach orr and morgan cox at least

Zach orr lol..

 

yeah im talking about other talent outside of ST.

 

Zach Orr is the worst all pro ever.

[arnie_uk]

2 minutes ago, Deflated Football said:

Don't bother Arnie. Ozzie is a god around here. 

Hes not infallible. I just hate when people go our of their way to defend him.

I've seen in recent years players hating someone pre draft then change their tune and say in Ozzie we trust as if he's never made a mistake.

And guess what, low and behold their original assessment was correct

Edited April 25 by arnie_uk

[ThatsMyJoeTerback]

1 minute ago, Sami84 said:

Zach orr lol..

 

yeah im talking about other talent outside of ST.

 

Zach Orr is the worst all pro ever.

So what if he is the worst all-pro ever? It's like being the worst starter on Team USA basketball.

[Sami84]

3 minutes ago, ThatsMyJoeTerback said:

So what if he is the worst all-pro ever? It's like being the worst starter on Team USA basketball.

not really...

just a bunch of lazy ppl voting who only looked at basic stats rather than his actual play which was bad.

[rossihunter2]

8 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

Zach orr lol..

 

yeah im talking about other talent outside of ST.

 

Zach Orr is the worst all pro ever.

let's just take the drafted guys then in which case the notable players are ray rice, kelechi osemele, cj mosley, juice, tyrod taylor, cedric peerman (special teams) - my original number was wrong anyway - i forgot that rice went to 3 probowls - which makes the number of just drafted guys 9 + the undrafted guys (also forgot that orr didnt actually get a pro bowl)

Edited April 25 by rossihunter2

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

10 minutes ago, Deflated Football said:

Perhaps Flacco could read a defense before the ball is snapped and get it out as quickly as possible, nullifying your statement. I've said before that we excel at grooming late round offensive linemen. And Terrance West had a pretty good YPC  percentage despite a crappy offensive line last season.  

Perhaps a dominant OL gives Flacco clean pockets and all the time in the world, also allowing even mediocre receivers to get open (bc even the best DBs in the league can't cover effectively for more than 5-6 seconds).... and blows open huge lanes so we have great run game that constantly puts us in 3rd and shorts thus controlling the ball and the clock; both of which allow the D to stay fresh, really get after it with pressure and focus on turnovers....

Resulting in an improved run and pass game and complimenting the defense we've built. 

 

Dont see how what you said nullifies the argument at all. 

And for the record I personally prefer Barnett or Williams/Davis over going OL with the 1st pick....

But that has nothing to do with the fact that adding one player that improves the OL impacts this team WAY more than adding a WR.

Im just not sold that any OL will be the best player available. Saying that a WR might be a better player than the available lineman is fair.... but the idea that a WR is more important than improving our OL is absurd. 

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

7 minutes ago, arnie_uk said:

Hes not infallible. I just hate when people go our of their way to defend him.

I've seen in recent years players hating someone pre draft then change their tune and say in Ozzie we trust as if he's never made a mistake.

And guess what, low and behold their original assessment was correct

I've seen idiots state that he was never that good to begin with. That's when I'll draw the line. If Ozzie newsome could enter the hall of fame a second time as an executive he likely would. But his decline began shortly before the SB with Osemele being the only good pick from that draft. Don't get me wrong, his career as a whole has been beyond excellent. 

 

Otherwise, I've hated the way this offseason has gone outside of signing Jefferson and Webb. The Jernigan trade was beyond moronic, as was giving Williams all of that money. He wants to replace a proven, good RT when Cam Robinson(potentially) who would suck there(that said, he could be a very good guard). The offseason started out great. Jefferson was a great signing. I would not be surprised if he made a few pro bowls here. 

 

But then we shot ourselves in the foot repeatedly with the Williams and Jenigan stuff. 

 

Robinson would be icing on the cake for just a crap offseason. 

[RaineV1]

2 minutes ago, arnie_uk said:

Hes not infallible. I just hate when people go our of their way to defend him.

I've seen in recent years players hating someone pre draft then change their tune and say in Ozzie we trust as if he's never made a mistake.

And guess what, low and behold their original assessment was correct

It seems like both sides exaggerate in arguments about Ozzie just for the sake proving the other side wrong. 

I don't think he's perfect, but he's been right more often than he's been wrong, which is more than I can say for many GMs over the years. So, yeah, I'll trust him.

 

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

21 minutes ago, Deflated Football said:

Perhaps Flacco could read a defense before the ball is snapped and get it out as quickly as possible, nullifying your statement. I've said before that we excel at grooming late round offensive linemen. And Terrance West had a pretty good YPC  percentage despite a crappy offensive line last season.  

This statement would be fine if we didn't just trade away our starting center for absolutely nothing, and didn't let our RT go. We have 2 good offensive linemen.. And then Lewis who sucks at guard, but would be a good RT. 

 

I'm sorry. I'd take an elite oline all day with rock solid weapons(which I think we draft a WR in this draft in like the second round so yeah), every day over an elite WR trio with a crap offensive line like we have know.

 

As for grooming late round olinemen. We can get them to be good depth pieces(which lets face it, Urschel and Jensen are VERY good depth pieces), but not starters. 

 

 

Oline and pass rusher are our biggest needs BY FAR. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

17 minutes ago, arnie_uk said:

I hate siding with sami but this post is just hot air. Ozzie was by far and away the best gm up until probably the past 5 or 6 years. Other teams have caught up and probably exceeded him.

No team has a historic track record like the ravens.

Many teams have a better current track record than the ravens.

That's simple facts. Out recent drafts have been poor which is why we have been floundering since 3 potential future hall of hamers left.

The young talent hasnt been up to scratch and when it was we didn't have cap space to keep em

Name the teams and the picks. 

 

Still waiting (2+ years now) for someone to do this. Probably bc if you take the time to actually look into it instead of just whining and complaining -- you really can't. 

 

You can find a GM or team that was maybe better over a 2-3 year stretch (usually coincides with picking high) but comparing 2008 to now... he's still right near the top. 

[arnie_uk]

3 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

It seems like both sides exaggerate in arguments about Ozzie just for the sake proving the other side wrong. 

I don't think he's perfect, but he's been right more often than he's been wrong, which is more than I can say for many GMs over the years. So, yeah, I'll trust him.

 

He used to be more right that wrong. He's missing at as high a rate as anyone right now.

He's second round is deplorable of late

[52520Andrew]

From 2009 onwards...

2009:

Cedric Peerman somehow with the Bengals 6 years after we drafted him and he didn't even make the final roster

Total = 1

 

2010:

Morgan Cox was undrafted but we can count him to be nice

2010 Total = 2

New Total = 3

 

2011:

Tyrod Taylor made one in 2015 after he left here

2011 Total = 1

New Total = 4

 

2012:

K.O. made a pro bowl this past year after leaving us

Technically Tucker wasn't drafted by us as he was undrafted but we can count him as well

2012 Total = 3

New Total = 7

 

2013:

Juice made a pro bowl this past year

2012 Total = 1

New Total = 8

 

2014:

CJ has done very well for us here with 2014 and 2016 both being pro bowl level years for him

2014 Total = 2

New Total = 10

 

I won't go into the past 2 years as the players are all too young to know for sure but I will say that there is some potential with the 2016 class and I am not feeling too great about the 2015 class.

So we have 10 pro bowls over 6 years of drafting and I would say that there is still room for some growth with CJ and Jimmy Smith to hopefully develop along with maybe Brandon Williams getting recognized. 

I may do the classes from 2002 to 2008 if there is interest

[52520Andrew]

16 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

not really...

just a bunch of lazy ppl voting who only looked at basic stats rather than his actual play which was bad.

I think the reason he was selected along with Mosley was that there was a huge tie between different LBs who all had one vote

[Sami84]

3 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

From 2009 onwards...

2009:

Cedric Peerman somehow with the Bengals 6 years after we drafted him and he didn't even make the final roster

Total = 1

 

2010:

Morgan Cox was undrafted but we can count him to be nice

2010 Total = 2

New Total = 3

 

2011:

Tyrod Taylor made one in 2015 after he left here

2011 Total = 1

New Total = 4

 

2012:

K.O. made a pro bowl this past year after leaving us

Technically Tucker wasn't drafted by us as he was undrafted but we can count him as well

2012 Total = 3

New Total = 7

 

2013:

Juice made a pro bowl this past year

2012 Total = 1

New Total = 8

 

2014:

CJ has done very well for us here with 2014 and 2016 both being pro bowl level years for him

2014 Total = 2

New Total = 10

 

I won't go into the past 2 years as the players are all too young to know for sure but I will say that there is some potential with the 2016 class and I am not feeling too great about the 2015 class.

So we have 10 pro bowls over 6 years of drafting and I would say that there is still room for some growth with CJ and Jimmy Smith to hopefully develop along with maybe Brandon Williams getting recognized. 

I may do the classes from 2002 to 2008 if there is interest

 

B.Williams and Jimmy Smith are solid football players. they are the eptimoe of high floor and low celing. They are not pro bowl calibre.

I'm sorry but thats a weak list outside of KO and CJ. I have no clue on how you found 10 pro bowls there..i count the pro bowl player not the number which is inflated with special teams players.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

2 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

B.Williams and Jimmy Smith are solid football players. they are the eptimoe of high floor and low celing. They are not pro bowl calibre.

I'm sorry but thats a weak list outside of KO and CJ. I have no clue on how you found 10 pro bowls there..i count the pro bowl player not the number which is inflated with special teams players.

Jimmy Smith when healthy has been a Top 5 CB... arguably top 2-3. 

Yes he's got to stay healthy and until he does it's a disappointment.... but there's literally no argument to knock his play when he's been on the field. 

In2016 he was Top 1 or 2 in catch % by receivers in his coverage, opponent passer rating, and yards per reception. 

I mean if the CBs job is to not let the WR catch the ball and if/when he does to limit how many yards he gets... idk how you can argue that being just pretty good. 

[52520Andrew]

9 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

B.Williams and Jimmy Smith are solid football players. they are the eptimoe of high floor and low celing. They are not pro bowl calibre.

I'm sorry but thats a weak list outside of KO and CJ. I have no clue on how you found 10 pro bowls there..i count the pro bowl player not the number which is inflated with special teams players.

I think they are capable of making it if they have a good year. I am keeping it as unbiased as I can, just spitting out the figures and my thoughts. Doing 2002 - 2008 now. You will probably enjoy it.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

3 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

I think they are capable of making it if they have a good year. I am keeping it as unbiased as I can, just spitting out the figures and my thoughts. Doing 2002 - 2008 now. You will probably enjoy it.

2002-2008 is going to blow it out of the water. But you have to consider that the average draft position over that span was probably somewhere in the 12-16 range... whereas over the 2009-2016 span it was mid to late 20's

[52520Andrew]

4 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

2002-2008 is going to blow it out of the water. But you have to consider that the average draft position over that span was probably somewhere in the 12-16 range... whereas over the 2009-2016 span it was mid to late 20's

Actually ended up only being 3 top 20 picks. We made our picks on each of them(Suggs, Ngata, and Flacco) but there were some other really good picks we made

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

2 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

Actually ended up only being 3 top 20 picks. We made our picks on each of them(Suggs, Ngata, and Flacco) but there were some other really good picks we made

Heap wasn't top 20?

[52520Andrew]

Just now, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Heap wasn't top 20?

Heap was 32 since we had just won the Super Bowl when we got him

[52520Andrew]

Yeah I am too curious to not do 2002-2008 here so lets do it

 

2002:

You may have heard of this guy named Ed Reed, he was pretty good. Went to 9 pro bowls

Since we counted the undrafted guys in recent drafts, we must do the same here. Bart Scott couldn't wait to make the pro bowl in 2006

Total = 10

 

2003:

Sizzle has been to 6

Ovie Mughelli made a pro bowl in 2010 with the Falcons

2003 Total = 7

New Total = 17

 

2004:

Didn't get anyone in the actual draft but Don Muhlbach was picked up as an UDFA before going to the Lions and making a pro bowl 8 years later

2004 Total = 1

New Total = 18

 

2005:

Derek Anderson had that one year in Cleveland he was good and made the pro bowl in 2007

2005 Total = 1

New Total = 19

 

2006:

Ngata of course made his 5 pro bowls

Sam Koch also was able to make a pro bowl in 2015

2006 Total = 6

New Total = 25

 

2007:

Ben Grubbs made 2 pro bowls, once for us and then once with the Saints in 2013

Yanda has been great making 6 pro bowls for us

Le'Ron McClain made 2 pro bowls

2007 Total = 10

New Total = 35

 

2008:

Ray Rice out of Rutgers our Running back

2008 Total = 3

New Total = 38

 

So yeah this is a lot more than 10 and also means that I counted the pro bowls differently than in the list since it doesn't add up to 42. Don't feel like figuring out where the differences are though so whatever.

This was more classes than in the first post(7 vs 6) but there were some really good classes there and our only top 20 picks were Suggs, Flacco, and Ngata compared to CJ for the more recent stretch. That did not stop our team from finding some serious gems though in Reed and Yanda along with some other good picks in Grubbs and Rice outside that range. Outside the guys listed though we had only 7 total pro bowls so a lot of that total is due to some really good players like Reed, Suggs, and Yanda(who accounted for 21 pro bowls between them and counting as I think Yanda has more in him). 

Also the 2004 and 2005 drafts were pretty bad

[RavensFanMania]

58 minutes ago, arnie_uk said:

I hate siding with sami but this post is just hot air. Ozzie was by far and away the best gm up until probably the past 5 or 6 years. Other teams have caught up and probably exceeded him.

No team has a historic track record like the ravens.

Many teams have a better current track record than the ravens.

That's simple facts. Out recent drafts have been poor which is why we have been floundering since 3 potential future hall of hamers left.

The young talent hasnt been up to scratch and when it was we didn't have cap space to keep em

I don't think it's that Ozzie has gotten worse.  Other teams have just figure it out and we don't have the edge anymore.  Now last years draft was a great draft.  Stanley Young Dixon Judon.  it has the potential to be even better if Correa and Kaufusi pan out and maybe even Henry,  

 

[Ravens4Real]

Making the pro bowl is one of the most useless factors in determining if a player is good or not. Especially since fans hold the keys to a player getting in. 

Edited April 25 by Ravens4Real