Draft Rumor Mill

[KBoum]

Looks like Barnett is this year Bosa. Some people don't like him at all. Imo Barnett is a day 1 starter. His progression since he entered college is what you wanna see from a prospect. He's always progressing and getting better. He got as many sacks as Garett when playing againt Good teams. I would draft him in a heartbeat at 16

 

and he's like 20 years old he's got so much rooom to get better/improve

Edited April 27 by KBoum

[PurpleHorseman]

7 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

All the reaction time in the world means nothing if the tackle can't get his hips lower than the edge rushers shoulders. That's how Barnett has consistently made his burst a non factor, he throws a swipe and keeps his chest clean and then dips his shoulders to the tackles hip level making him untouchable. Low man wins right? Barnett proves that. A tackle can't block a guy who he can't lay a good set of hands on.

Doesn't have to get below his shoulders. NFL tackles have stronger hands to control. If that were true Von miller would have over 30 sacks a year. But he is stunted to when the Tackle get his hands on him. Take his getoff away and he isn't the same edge rusher by far. Ware can bend very well. And at 35 has a better getoff than Barnett!! Sorry dude it's the one player I don't want ravens to get. Maybe Robinson I don't want as much there at NO.16 overall 

Edited April 27 by PurpleHorseman

[JoeyFlex5]

5 minutes ago, PurpleHorseman said:

Doesn't have to get below his shoulders. NFL tackles have stronger hands to control. If that were true Von miller would have over 30 sacks a year. But he is stunted to when the Tackle get his hands on him. Take his getoff away and he isn't the same edge rusher by far

Von miller is a totally different monster. He wins with his get off and speed around the edge, he has developed nicely as far as hands go, but this is apples and oranges. Barnett is stronger and has better and more violent hand usage than von miller has a 6 year veteran(I think 6 years is right). You can rush the passer in multiple ways, there is a lot more to it than a quick get off.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

21 minutes ago, PurpleHorseman said:

There are 7 edge rushers I would take before Barnett. His getoff looks like he is wearing lead shoes. He plays hard and He can bend pretty well. However if any edge rusher allows the bigger tackle reaction time to get his hands on him. Then he is going to have a hard time getting to QB.

Takes more than time to get your hands on and lock barnett out. Hes incredibly proficient with his hands, knocking others away and hes really good at decreasing the strike zone by getting a step, turning his shoulders and dipping way down low.

Plus speed/explosion does really help, but if you need a much wider arc to get to the QB; someone slower can get there sooner with more efficient steps. and thats what barnett does best -- bends, turns the corner and closes with force in just 3-4 steps. Even if his steps themselves are slower, he can still be much quicker than other bc they have to take 6 steps or more to get home and they have to cover more distance. And its hard to push Barnett beyond the pocket bc hes so economical with his footwork and turns that corner so tight. He makes it hard for QBs to even step up.

 

I will take the L if Barnett doesnt pan out. But im 100% sold that he has an ELITE skill set and sufficient athletic traits. Plus hes very young so its no foregone conclusion he doesnt get bigger, stronger, faster and more explosive. Hes still got some baby fat on him. Hes barely 20. Very decent chance his athleticism becomes more than just sufficient and actually an asset. But the reality is there have been TONS of athletic freak rushers that fail, and tons of technique guys without the athleticism that thrive.

 

Besides i dont see the lack of athleticism that everyone else sees. 40's are pointless for edge rushers. I think the 3 cone and short shuttle are more telling.

Barnett: 6.85s 3 cone drill; 4.44s Short Shuttle (a Top Performer in the 3 cone, which shows great short area quickness/acceleration)

Charles Harris: 7.47s 3 cone; 4.42 Short Shuttle; 4.82s 40 (barely better than Barnett; and Barnett was sick during combine)

Tim Williams (whose athleticism is raved about ): 7.36s 3 cone; 4.57 Short Shuttle (both significantly slower than Barnett)

Pernell McPhee: 7.13s Short Shuttle; 4.59 Short Shuttle; 4.93 40; 28.5in Vert; 107in Long (all worse than Barnett; plenty of athleticism to disrupt in the NFL)

--

I mean - think about it - the 3 cone drill essentially measures how fast you can get to a QB. After tiring you out a little, it tests you quickly bending around an edge, then fully bending in a 180 around another before chasing the QB.

Its NO surprise that Barnett was a top performer at the motion that most closely reflects rushing off the edge. Plenty of athleticism.

Edited April 27 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[PurpleHorseman]

1 minute ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Von miller is a totally different monster. He wins with his get off and speed around the edge, he has developed nicely as far as hands go, but this is apples and oranges. Barnett is stronger and has better and more violent hand usage than von miller has a 6 year veteran(I think 6 years is right). You can rush the passer in multiple ways, there is a lot more to it than a quick get off.

You are correct but it begins with the getoff cuz you can not allow NFL tackles to get their hands on you. Even the chumps are masters at locking rushers up. 

[PurpleHorseman]

3 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Takes more than time to get your hands on and lock barnett out. Hes incredibly proficient with his hands, knocking others away and hes really good at decreasing the strike zone by getting a step, turning his shoulders and dipping way down low.

Plus speed/explosion does really help, but if you need a much wider arc to get to the QB; someone slower can get there sooner with more efficient steps. and thats what barnett does best -- bends, turns the corner and closes with force in just 3-4 steps. Even if his steps themselves are slower, he can still be much quicker than other bc they have to take 6 steps or more to get home and they have to cover more distance. And its hard to push Barnett beyond the pocket bc hes so economical with his footwork and turns that corner so tight. He makes it hard for QBs to even step up.

 

I will take the L if Barnett doesnt pan out. But im 100% sold that he has an ELITE skill set and sufficient athletic traits. Plus hes very young so its no foregone conclusion he doesnt get bigger, stronger, faster and more explosive. Hes still got some baby fat on him. Hes barely 20. Very decent chance his athleticism becomes more than just sufficient and actually an asset. But the reality is there have been TONS of athletic freak rushers that fail, and tons of technique guys without the athleticism that thrive.

 

Besides i dont see the lack of athleticism that everyone else sees. 40's are pointless for edge rushers. I think the 3 cone and short shuttle are more telling.

Barnett: 6.85s 3 cone drill; 4.44s Short Shuttle (a Top Performer in the 3 cone, which shows great short area quickness/acceleration)

Charles Harris: 7.47s 3 cone; 4.42 Short Shuttle; 4.82s 40 (barely better than Barnett; and Barnett was sick during combine)

Tim Williams (whose athleticism is raved about ): 7.36s 3 cone; 4.57 Short Shuttle (both significantly slower than Barnett)

Pernell McPhee: 7.13s Short Shuttle; 4.59 Short Shuttle; 4.93 40; 28.5in Vert; 107in Long (all worse than Barnett; plenty of athleticism to disrupt in the NFL)

 

I mean - think about it - the 3 cone drill essentially measures how fast you can get to a QB. After tiring you out a little, it tests you quickly bending around an edge, then fully bending in a 180 around another before chasing the QB.

Its NO surprise that Barnett was a top performer at the motion that most closely reflects rushing off the edge. Plenty of athleticism.

3 cone is a joke determining that. Not in same galaxy as getting by a hulking tackle with strong hands. Stanley's 3 cone was terrible but look how well he moves in his blocking. You can practice the 3 cone not wasting motion through it. He isn't in the same galaxy as Tim Williams and Charles  Harris

Edited April 27 by PurpleHorseman

[JoeyFlex5]

Just now, PurpleHorseman said:

You are correct but it begins with the getoff cuz you can not allow NFL tackles to get their hands on you. Even the chumps are masters at locking rushers up. 

But they can't get their hands on you if you are too low for them, if tackles are forced to wrap around the rushers shoulder and neck area then it's a hold, keeping the chest squared up opens up an opportunity for a clean block, or even just a staggering punch to knock a speed rusher too deep. But the hand fighting keeps the blocker from engaging, and the bend keeps the blocker from making any kind of play, you just really seem to underrate the power of a great bending edge rusher

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

5 minutes ago, PurpleHorseman said:

3 cone is a joke determining that. Not in same galaxy as getting by a hulking tackle with strong hands. Stanley's 3 cone was terrible but look how well he moves in his blocking. You can practice the 3 cone not wasting motion through it. He isn't in the same galaxy as Tim Williams and Charles  Harris

What does a LT's 3 cone have anything to do with it? Tackles dont rush the edge.

But how your run a 3 cone is almost identical to and edge rusher getting around the edge. Its not about flat out speed but economical footwork, getting low and bending the 2 edges, and then coming out of that bend and exploding for a short distance (to a QB). 

It absolutely had bearing on an edge rushers athleticism for a position. All sports science now is moving toward athletes performing the actual movements they will need to perform in games.... i.e. not doing 100 yd sprints to develop speed, if all you do is a series of 5 yd explosions. Do the 5 yd explosions over and over again at 100% effort and develop the most economical movements.

 

That 3 cone time shows me that Barnett has far more developed and efficient movement. He is plenty athletic at the motions a pass rusher uses. Who the hell cares how fast he can run in straight line in underwear? I care how quickly he can bend an edge and hit a QB with pads on. Which he does PLENTY fast.

Plus you keep bringing up the hands thing, but your knock is theyll get their hands on him bc hes slower off the line and getting around the edge. Hes not. He times the snap incredibly well and wastes no movement. That combined with how low he gets, how great he is at hand fighting, and how he reduces the strike zone will make it tougher to get hands on Barnett than almost any other prospect.

Couple that with how quickly and economically he turns the corner, and reduces to distance he has to cover -- in reality, i.e. playing the game through the actual motion these guys will need to do, Barnett is just as quick as most of them.

Edited April 27 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Think about it like car racing... who cares if your car can get up to 250 MPH if the course is full of sharp hair pin turns? If you dont know how to brake and down shift economically enough to take optimal speed through the curves you wont be going as fast as other cars with less top end speed, and you wont be able to accelerate through the turns like others.

Barnett may not have the Hemi engine some of these other guys have. But he carries his full speed, can take the corner inside sharp, and accelerates through it coming out near top speed.

Most of these other guys fly out the gates at top speed but it carries them wide around the corner, forcing them to brake and slow down through it, and thus come out much slower.

[gtalk12]

THE DAY OF RECKONING IS AMONG US BOOOYYYYYZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[JoeyFlex5]

4 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

What does a LT's 3 cone have anything to do with it? Tackles dont rush the edge.

But how your run a 3 cone is almost identical to and edge rusher getting around the edge. Its not about flat out speed but economical footwork, getting low and bending the 2 edges, and then coming out of that bend and exploding for a short distance (to a QB). 

It absolutely had bearing on an edge rushers athleticism for a position. All sports science now is moving toward athletes performing the actual movements they will need to perform in games.... i.e. not doing 100 yd sprints to develop speed, if all you do is a series of 5 yd explosions. Do the 5 yd explosions over and over again at 100% effort and develop the most economical movements.

 

That 3 cone time shows me that Barnett has far more developed and efficient movement. He is plenty athletic at the motions a pass rusher uses. Who the hell cares how fast he can run in straight line in underwear? I care how quickly he can bend an edge and hit a QB with pads on. Which he does PLENTY fast.

Plus you keep bringing up the hands thing, but your knock is theyll get their hands on him bc hes slower off the line and getting around the edge. Hes not. He times the snap incredibly well and wastes no movement. That combined with how low he gets, how great he is at hand fighting, and how he reduces the strike zone will make it tougher to get hands on Barnett than almost any other prospect.

Couple that with how quickly and economically he turns the corner, and reduces to distance he has to cover -- in reality, i.e. playing the game through the actual motion these guys will need to do, Barnett is just as quick as most of them.

Seems @PurpleHorseman puts too much stock in the explosion category and not enough stock in the raw skill and relative motion category 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

5 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Seems @PurpleHorseman puts too much stock in the explosion category and not enough stock in the raw skill and relative motion category 

Yea. I really like the car racing metaphor.

Theres a reason you dont take a drag racing car into a race with a bunch of sharp turns. Sweeeet that your car can shoot flames out the exhaust and accelerate in a straight line up to 300 mph..... mine can barely get to 150 - but i carry that 150 into and through turns while accelerating out of them. Meanwhile youre flying off the road on the outside of the corner, having to slow down to get back on track and only start accelerating again after the corner.

Barnett is that first guy. He gets the absolute max out of his athleticism, and can carry it through a very sharp bend around the tackle. You see a lot of these other guys like Garret, Tim Williams, Willis that have the great burst -- they alot of times get washed behind the pocket bc they have to win with speed often and it just takes them around the pocket.

Now, its deadly when their 1st or 2nd step is beyond the tackle. They win right away and close. But if that 1st or 2nd step doesnt win and the Tackle can mirror that, they cant slow down and change direction quick enough to cut back inside, and by the 3rd or 4th step theyre beyond the pocket.

And NFL tackles will be able to kickstep and slide to mirror that get off WAY more often than in college.

Edited April 27 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[ellicottraven]

2 hours ago, rmw10 said:

You do realize that if those guys slip to us, that means there are issues, correct?  Allen's shoulders are apparently pretty bad and we all know the issues with Foster.  If they're at 16, there's a reason, and I don't see any good reasons for them to be there.

Sure. However, I trust that if they slip and we pick them up our scouting department's due diligence is the best out there and I trust them more than the other 15 teams that pick ahead of us. Moreover, do you forget we are among the very few teams that has its own research for the draft unlike most teams that subscribe to external services for draft information and research? Only the Colts and the Ravens in the top 16 do their own research as well but I trust our scouting department a whole lot more. The Ravens are only one of five teams that do their own draft research and scouting vs subscribing to external services such as Blesto and National. So, if they fall I believe we'll know a lot more about it than some of the teams that may have passed them over.

 

Edited April 27 by ellicottraven

[PurpleHorseman]

If Bengals take Barnett, Stanley will swallow him up!!

[jboy19]

All these rumors flying around have my heart set on Lamp now </3

[ravensnation5220]

10 minutes ago, PurpleHorseman said:

If Bengals take Barnett, Stanley will swallow him up!!

Agreed. I have a feeling they go Taco though. Hes the kinda body type they look for on their Dline

[PurpleHorseman]

46 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

But they can't get their hands on you if you are too low for them, if tackles are forced to wrap around the rushers shoulder and neck area then it's a hold, keeping the chest squared up opens up an opportunity for a clean block, or even just a staggering punch to knock a speed rusher too deep. But the hand fighting keeps the blocker from engaging, and the bend keeps the blocker from making any kind of play, you just really seem to underrate the power of a great bending edge rusher

Dude come on now. We're talking world class athletes. He isn't getting that low that a tackle can't get his hands on him. NFL tackles have stronger hands. Barnett's hand usage isn't going to mean jack. The holding happens when an edge rusher gets by him so fast while low. NFL tackles will mirror him and get their hands on him.

[PurpleHorseman]

The homer way negging things you don't like to hear. That's really going to help Barnett sack the QB. Lmao

[JoeKnows]

Todd McShay said that we're hoping Haason Reddick falls to us in his latest mock draft.

[PurpleHorseman]

Some of the most elusive running backs have 3 comes above 7 while some QBs that aren't real dual threats run below 7 and a touch over. It isn't even close to determining the players overall athleticism

[rossihunter2]

1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

he had barnett off the board in that case...

but according to sources there are several teams that have Harris as the 2nd pure pass rusher in the draft behind only Garrett. 

I dont have him quite that high - i definitely like Barnett better - but i do have Harris 3rd. And a number of teams are considering him reportedly in the Ravens range. So Ozzie certainly wouldnt be alone in that regard.

And if Harris turns out to be an all pro edge rusher with 10-14 sacks per year... Ozzie should be fired? If they were to take Harris its because their evaluations had him rated as a valuable pick there. Just because that doesnt match up with your evaluation doesnt mean theyre wrong or should be fired. And itll be the accuracy of those evaluations that determine job security and future.

Saying right now that it would be a fire-able offense is silly.

 

Please - while the draft is happening tonight - post who you would take out of who is left on the board for the Ravens picks. I want to save that and critique it in 3 years. Lets walk the walk, and see who can actually hack it as evaluator and GM.... and who should be fired. And I'll do it too so i can be judged too. But in fairness im also not acting to be better or more knowledgeable than an NFL gm or pro scout. 

i'd be game with that

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

34 minutes ago, PurpleHorseman said:

If Bengals take Barnett, Stanley will swallow him up!!

maybe he does but thats bc hes one of the most athletic and technical LT's to come out in a long time. He was an ELITE prospect whose skill set actually matches up really well against Barnett's. There arent a lot of Stanleys in the NFL. The kid was the top rated LT in the league over the final 8-10 games. the LEAGUE not just among rookie tackles.

Thats like saying - dont take Corey Davis, because Jalen Ramsey can lock him up! Dont take Lamp bc Joey Bosa will blow past him! 

[rossihunter2]

1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

i wouldnt mind at all double dipping pass rushers so long as we still get value at either OG/RT and CB. Id like a WR in the 1st three rounds too, but i def want at least one pass rusher, one OL and one CB in the 1st three. 

So maybe not necessarily a 1-2 punch, but if we could get Barnett and Tim Williams 1 and 3, or Barnett and Trey Hendrickson... or Carl Lawson and Tanoh Kpassagnon in 2-3... etc.. 

Im expecting an OL in round 2 - Feeney, Dion Dawkins, Dorian Johnson, or Pat Elflein maybe. So 1 and 3 would be cool. If we jump and take OL round 1 then i think we NEED to go pass rusher round 2. Especially if Carl Lawson, Tim WIlliams, Tyus Bowser or Jordan Willis is on the board.

i really think that we are going to be getting a pass rusher in the first 2 rounds (unless williams is destined to fall to the 3rd but i just see that as so unlikely) - i think to be honest that if we dont take oline in the 1st that we wont take one until the 3rd at the earliest just because im not sure i see the value being there vs other positions at our pick in the 2nd - i feel like corner will be addressed in the 2nd round if one of the run starts late enough or maybe a quincy wilson is still on the board there (less likely now that conley likely doesnt go until the 3rd round) but i feel more confident that we nab corner in the 3rd - this of course is if media evaluations are close to the truth which i guess they never are

[trevorsteadman]

3 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

maybe he does but thats bc hes one of the most athletic and technical LT's to come out in a long time. He was an ELITE prospect whose skill set actually matches up really well against Barnett's. There arent a lot of Stanleys in the NFL. The kid was the top rated LT in the league over the final 8-10 games. the LEAGUE not just among rookie tackles.

Thats like saying - dont take Corey Davis, because Jalen Ramsey can lock him up! Dont take Lamp bc Joey Bosa will blow past him! 

Actually this is why I want Reddick. I think it was his film I was watching he was playing against Stanley and both won battles here and there but that proves just how good Reddick was even last year. Stanley is one of the better tackle prospects to come out in a long long time. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

12 minutes ago, PurpleHorseman said:

The homer way negging things you don't like to hear. That's really going to help Barnett sack the QB. Lmao

And your Homer way of just constantly repeating the same dumb opinions over and over isnt going to stop him from becoming great.

He'll be what he'll be, because of him.

 

Your argument is like saying -- Corey Davis is going to suck bc theres bigger WRs in this draft... and theres some really great WRs in the nfl that are big. So, if youre not really big you cant be good. "But hes an elite route runner and theres plenty of very good WRs that are elite route runners in the NFL." Yea, but big is the most important part of being a WR. And speed. 

Therefore dont draft corey davis. He sucks. Its fact. Jalen ramsey will limit him, so dont draft him.

 

No one knows what any of these guys are going to do... but even those of us that love him think he will be really good in the NFL... which is different than saying "he cant handle NFL tackles bc every single one is amazing and if their hands touch him Barnett wont be able ot move. And theyll all be able to touch him bc his feet cant even move hes so slow."

Its like hyperbole. But worse. Bc you believe it.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

1 minute ago, trevorsteadman said:

Actually this is why I want Reddick. I think it was his film I was watching he was playing against Stanley and both won battles here and there but that proves just how good Reddick was even last year. Stanley is one of the better tackle prospects to come out in a long long time. 

Watch him against Cinci.

He does well against technique, athlete tackles. But surprisingly ive seen him struggle against BIG guys. Really struggle. He was almost non-existent that game.

dont get me wrong i love reddick. But every prospect has holes.

I jsut hate when people exaggerate someones weakness and act like thats the ONE thing that you absolutely cant be weak at and be successful in the NFL. Or make stupid analogies like bc a prospect wont match up well with like 1 or 3 NFL players, theyre going to be terrible.

Myles Garret might struggle against Joe Thomas... so hes lucky hes going to Cleveland or he'd be a bust.

[rmw10]

Albert Breer's mock has this little nugget.

16. Ravens: Alabama LB Reuben Foster. No one gets more background on Bama players than Ozzie Newsome. And I hear he’s OK with Foster’s flags

[rossihunter2]

1 hour ago, PurpleHorseman said:

3 cone is a joke determining that. Not in same galaxy as getting by a hulking tackle with strong hands. Stanley's 3 cone was terrible but look how well he moves in his blocking. You can practice the 3 cone not wasting motion through it. He isn't in the same galaxy as Tim Williams and Charles  Harris

then in what way is the 40 a good assessment of athleticism either? he doesnt look slow on tape so the only place i could see you finding him slow is the 40...

[trevorsteadman]

2 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Watch him against Cinci.

He does well against technique, athlete tackles. But surprisingly ive seen him struggle against BIG guys. Really struggle. He was almost non-existent that game.

dont get me wrong i love reddick. But every prospect has holes.

I jsut hate when people exaggerate someones weakness and act like thats the ONE thing that you absolutely cant be weak at and be successful in the NFL. Or make stupid analogies like bc a prospect wont match up well with like 1 or 3 NFL players, theyre going to be terrible.

Myles Garret might struggle against Joe Thomas... so hes lucky hes going to Cleveland or he'd be a bust.

And I agree he is undersized and struggles against bigger guys, if he is going to play edge then he definitely needs to bulk up. If he stays inside at WILL then I think he would be fine where he is now. 

 

1 minute ago, rmw10 said:

Albert Breer's mock has this little nugget.

16. Ravens: Alabama LB Reuben Foster. No one gets more background on Bama players than Ozzie Newsome. And I hear he’s OK with Foster’s flags

You're getting my hopes up just to have my heart break tonight

[PurpleHorseman]

10 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

maybe he does but thats bc hes one of the most athletic and technical LT's to come out in a long time. He was an ELITE prospect whose skill set actually matches up really well against Barnett's. There arent a lot of Stanleys in the NFL. The kid was the top rated LT in the league over the final 8-10 games. the LEAGUE not just among rookie tackles.

Thats like saying - dont take Corey Davis, because Jalen Ramsey can lock him up! Dont take Lamp bc Joey Bosa will blow past him! 

Didn't say it was the only reason we shouldn't take. Was saying in general Stanley will swallow him up. Stanley is going to be great but I don't put much stock in PFF.  Fans love it when it supports their home team players but attack it when it is harsh on their players