Why the john Ross hype?

[rossihunter2]

11 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

I'm not sure if it is just because Corey Davis plays in a smaller conference or what, but his break away speed to me looks faster than John Ross. I do hesitate with him coming out of Western Michigan though.

That's a misnomer due to the competition level but while his breakaway speed isn't as good, his creative and polished route running gives him more space than he needs and is a great transferable skill to take to the nfl

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, Tru11 said:

jumpballs dont lead to YAC.
hitting players in stride does.

 

Duh. 

your point? 

How is Ross gonna get YAC for us if flacco isn't hitting him in stride on crossing routes consistently? It's probably the weakest part of his game. Mold your offense around joe and stop fitting square pegs in round holes, if you want a john Ross and perriman and Wallace on the same squad with flacco at QB then build a damn OL and hit them deep, don't get a small injury prone guy and let him get crushed over the middle because the offensive pieces don't mesh together and you're not doing what our qb does well.

[JoeyFlex5]

38 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

That's a misnomer due to the competition level but while his breakaway speed isn't as good, his creative and polished route running gives him more space than he needs and is a great transferable skill to take to the nfl

The ridiculous cushions dbs gave him also led to him having so much room to work with. 

However id say the breakaway speed illusion is directly a result of competition. He wasn't pulling away from OSU dbs too often(except for one broken play of course)

[JoeyFlex5]

2 hours ago, arnie_uk said:

You obviously haven't watch film on him then

His film doesn't show a consistent hands catcher or an attack mentality though in comparison to the other first round guys... 

hell you can't even find much of it on highlights. 

Not that he has bad hands, and to be fair he hasn't had a ton of opportunities to show these things considering a lot of his passes have to drop into his arms, but if we're evaluating skillsets and you want a guy who attacks the ball well, Davis and Williams have shown much more of that.

[RavensDieHard21]

I hear ya flex, you aren't bashing the talent, but rather you are practical in his fit here. Why do you think SSS was pissed at camp when Joe was chucking ugly passes. His weakness is hitting guys in stride. 

Flacco is better at chucking it in the general vicinity and having his player making the play. In this scenario I think JuJu or Zay Jones would be better fits in the second. 

[rossihunter2]

46 minutes ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

I hear ya flex, you aren't bashing the talent, but rather you are practical in his fit here. Why do you think SSS was pissed at camp when Joe was chucking ugly passes. His weakness is hitting guys in stride. 

Flacco is better at chucking it in the general vicinity and having his player making the play. In this scenario I think JuJu or Zay Jones would be better fits in the second. 

Juju, Williams and Davis make a hell of a lot of sense for this team that if they are available when we pick i think we'll find it hard to pass on them unless some otherwordly talent drops to us in those spots (which isn't impossible)

[RavensDieHard21]

I agree. I think Davis is much more likely to be there. The two key teams are the bills and Titans. Titans lack a true no 1 and bills need a legit no 2 receiver. 

[rossihunter2]

1 minute ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

I agree. I think Davis is much more likely to be there. The two key teams are the bills and Titans. Titans lack a true no 1 and bills need a legit no 2 receiver. 

Teams that could take a wr ahead of us for me: titans at 5, jets at 6, chargers at 7, bengals at 9, bills at 10, browns at 12, cardinals at 13, eagles at 15

the titans will entirely be down to whether Adams is gone and whether they think mike Williams is a true number 1, the jets could go wr but they have a roster so devoid of talent that they might go bpa and it may well be a defensive guy given the strength of the draft, the chargers could go after Williams if foster, and both safeties are off the board, bengals should go after a wr because of how much they missed sanu and jones last year but knowing them they won't take one, not only do the bills need a number 2 receiver but with how injury-prone Watkins is they essentially need a number 1 guy, the browns just need playmakers although I still think they pick a qb, cardinals sneakily missed floyd and brown through a mix of injury and suspension last year and Larry fitz is on his way out so they are suddenly very thin at wr (to be fair they are also now incredibly thin on the back end as well and may even take a qb), the eagles have brought in a lot of wrs in free agency and I'd be surprised if mcaffrey and cook aren't serious considerations for them

so after all that I think I agree with you that the titans and bills are the most obvious threats - I'd add the bengals and cardinals as well (if they aren't going qb)

[RavensDieHard21]

5 hours ago, rossihunter2 said:

Teams that could take a wr ahead of us for me: titans at 5, jets at 6, chargers at 7, bengals at 9, bills at 10, browns at 12, cardinals at 13, eagles at 15

the titans will entirely be down to whether Adams is gone and whether they think mike Williams is a true number 1, the jets could go wr but they have a roster so devoid of talent that they might go bpa and it may well be a defensive guy given the strength of the draft, the chargers could go after Williams if foster, and both safeties are off the board, bengals should go after a wr because of how much they missed sanu and jones last year but knowing them they won't take one, not only do the bills need a number 2 receiver but with how injury-prone Watkins is they essentially need a number 1 guy, the browns just need playmakers although I still think they pick a qb, cardinals sneakily missed floyd and brown through a mix of injury and suspension last year and Larry fitz is on his way out so they are suddenly very thin at wr (to be fair they are also now incredibly thin on the back end as well and may even take a qb), the eagles have brought in a lot of wrs in free agency and I'd be surprised if mcaffrey and cook aren't serious considerations for them

so after all that I think I agree with you that the titans and bills are the most obvious threats - I'd add the bengals and cardinals as well (if they aren't going qb)

Yup you're right. No way Davis or Williams make it to us😂 even counting OJ Howard as an offensive pass catcher, there still seems to be no way.

[RaineV1]

5 hours ago, rossihunter2 said:

Teams that could take a wr ahead of us for me: titans at 5, jets at 6, chargers at 7, bengals at 9, bills at 10, browns at 12, cardinals at 13, eagles at 15

the titans will entirely be down to whether Adams is gone and whether they think mike Williams is a true number 1, the jets could go wr but they have a roster so devoid of talent that they might go bpa and it may well be a defensive guy given the strength of the draft, the chargers could go after Williams if foster, and both safeties are off the board, bengals should go after a wr because of how much they missed sanu and jones last year but knowing them they won't take one, not only do the bills need a number 2 receiver but with how injury-prone Watkins is they essentially need a number 1 guy, the browns just need playmakers although I still think they pick a qb, cardinals sneakily missed floyd and brown through a mix of injury and suspension last year and Larry fitz is on his way out so they are suddenly very thin at wr (to be fair they are also now incredibly thin on the back end as well and may even take a qb), the eagles have brought in a lot of wrs in free agency and I'd be surprised if mcaffrey and cook aren't serious considerations for them

so after all that I think I agree with you that the titans and bills are the most obvious threats - I'd add the bengals and cardinals as well (if they aren't going qb)

Out of that group, I think the Bills are the only ones that actually take a WR.

[rossihunter2]

4 hours ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

Yup you're right. No way Davis or Williams make it to us😂 even counting OJ Howard as an offensive pass catcher, there still seems to be no way.

I still think there's a chance as long as the titans don't take Williams at 5 just because of how strong the defensive class is comparatively

[RavensDieHard21]

I'll cross my fingers lol I always go to a bar to watch the draft and they must think I'm crazy when I yell every time a great player I want goes before us. Likely will happen 10 times before 16 this year

Edited April 7 by RavensDieHard21

[Tru11]

19 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Duh. 

your point? 

How is Ross gonna get YAC for us if flacco isn't hitting him in stride on crossing routes consistently? It's probably the weakest part of his game. Mold your offense around joe and stop fitting square pegs in round holes, if you want a john Ross and perriman and Wallace on the same squad with flacco at QB then build a damn OL and hit them deep, don't get a small injury prone guy and let him get crushed over the middle because the offensive pieces don't mesh together and you're not doing what our qb does well.

throwing jump balls and less then accurate passes is not a positive.

if that is what your QB does well then you are in trouble regardless of who you draft.

 

 

[JoeyFlex5]

1 minute ago, Tru11 said:

throwing jump balls and less then accurate passes is not a positive.

if that is what your QB does well then you are in trouble regardless of who you draft.

 

 

I'm suggesting we build an offense that better suits our qb. Not throw inaccurate jump balls all day. Having receivers who can catch the ball in those occasions where joe is off by a little bit is better than a receiver who can't make the adjustment. 

[PurpleHorseman]

19 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

The ridiculous cushions dbs gave him also led to him having so much room to work with. 

However id say the breakaway speed illusion is directly a result of competition. He wasn't pulling away from OSU dbs too often(except for one broken play of course)

D2 cornerbacks are running 4.5 and even 4.4. Dude for Davis to breakaway like that he has to run sub 4.5 at least. But it is his route skills to break out of routes with suddenness and create space that stands out

[Tru11]

11 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I'm suggesting we build an offense that better suits our qb. Not throw inaccurate jump balls all day. Having receivers who can catch the ball in those occasions where joe is off by a little bit is better than a receiver who can't make the adjustment. 

im suggesting our QB needs to work on his areas of weakness rather then we avoid good players because of that.

throwing jump balls short of the marker is not going to improve our offense even if we can get a guy that can catch majority of them.

the odds of catching an off target jump ball and then getting yac is slim at best and every time a receiver has to go up and try to catch a ball they are prone to taking a big hit.

building an offense based on this is not a recipe for success.

Edited April 7 by Tru11

[AnthonyGames]

20 hours ago, trevorsteadman said:

I'm not sure if it is just because Corey Davis plays in a smaller conference or what, but his break away speed to me looks faster than John Ross. I do hesitate with him coming out of Western Michigan though.

I get that same feeling...To me, Williams looks like primarily a possession guy (doesn't get a whole lot of separation), Ross looks primarily like a speed guy (although runs good routes!), and Davis can do it all! My nod goes to Davis, but I'd take the other two all day. Any of those dudes will greatly better our team. Imagine Ross, Perriman, and Wallace. Speed kills.

[Edgar]

19 hours ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

I hear ya flex, you aren't bashing the talent, but rather you are practical in his fit here. Why do you think SSS was pissed at camp when Joe was chucking ugly passes. His weakness is hitting guys in stride. 

Flacco is better at chucking it in the general vicinity and having his player making the play. In this scenario I think JuJu or Zay Jones would be better fits in the second. 

"Chucking it in the general vicinity".... is not something a franchise QB should specialize in.

Another reason I don't like Ross for us is Joe's lack of accuracy deep...he is severely prone to under throws and Ross is not ideally framed to take balls away from a defensive back.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

23 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

im suggesting our QB needs to work on his areas of weakness rather then we avoid good players because of that.

throwing jump balls short of the marker is not going to improve our offense even if we can get a guy that can catch majority of them.

the odds of catching an off target jump ball and then getting yac is slim at best and every time a receiver has to go up and try to catch a ball they are prone to taking a big hit.

building an offense based on this is not a recipe for success.

And I agree that he needs to improve his game, but if so many other elite qbs have these WRs to make miraculous catches then what is so wrong with wanting to give joe one? 

Oh I remember, you hyperbolize everything and argue for the hell of it.

[arnie_uk]

20 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

His film doesn't show a consistent hands catcher or an attack mentality though in comparison to the other first round guys... 

hell you can't even find much of it on highlights. 

Not that he has bad hands, and to be fair he hasn't had a ton of opportunities to show these things considering a lot of his passes have to drop into his arms, but if we're evaluating skillsets and you want a guy who attacks the ball well, Davis and Williams have shown much more of that.

Yes because passes inside the red zone drop into your arms.

[arnie_uk]

21 hours ago, rossihunter2 said:

Of course I have, otherwise I wouldn't be so vehemently against him at 16 - if I didn't watch film on him I probably would be easily swayed one way or the other... but alas I'm not

I do believe you are swayed.You seem to Parrott what some other people say. Mentioned it before but think they were deleted actually but alas you keep thinking Ross doesn't have "hands, body control, or a ball attacking mentality."

[arnie_uk]

If john ross diidnt have an injury history he wouldn't be on the board when we pick.

This is one of the best wide receiver draft (at the top level) in years, 2nd only to the year obj etc came out (Still can't believe Allen Robinson fell to the bottom of the second)

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

2 hours ago, arnie_uk said:

If john ross diidnt have an injury history he wouldn't be on the board when we pick.

This is one of the best wide receiver draft (at the top level) in years, 2nd only to the year obj etc came out (Still can't believe Allen Robinson fell to the bottom of the second)

Ok, but the injuries are real. And if you acknowledge they're a reason not to take him above 16... why is it so wrong to not want to take him at 16.

He has the injuries for that reason. He's like 5'11", 180lbs. With bad knees.

Speeds the first thing to go with bad knees.

Take away the speed, and the tools arent there to be a #1 WR. 

 

I dont think anyone's hating on him. I recognize he's a good player and may be a play maker. But when i look at everything outside his speed, i see average to pretty good. So if you take him high, you're placing a pretty big investment at that speed -- bc it is what will separate him in the NFL and make him truly dangerous. His ability to separate, get YAC, make big plays - all tied to that speed.

And a guy with 2 bad knee injuries already, makes that big of an investment unwise imo. If you hit the jackpot, great.... if you dont you used the 16th pick to maybe get a Tyler Lockett type player, and if the injuries show up and sap his speed you have a guy who likely isnt serviceable in the NFL.

If he didnt have 4.2 speed, and more like 4.45-4.5 speed - no ones touching him in the top 2-3 rounds.

[Tru11]

3 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

And I agree that he needs to improve his game, but if so many other elite qbs have these WRs to make miraculous catches then what is so wrong with wanting to give joe one? 

Oh I remember, you hyperbolize everything and argue for the hell of it.

who are these elite QBs that have to rely on their WRs to make miraculous catches?

better yet id like to know what % of the catches that these WRS made can be labeled are miraculous.

 

 

Edited April 7 by Tru11

[RaineV1]

43 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Ok, but the injuries are real. And if you acknowledge they're a reason not to take him above 16... why is it so wrong to not want to take him at 16.

He has the injuries for that reason. He's like 5'11", 180lbs. With bad knees.

Speeds the first thing to go with bad knees.

Take away the speed, and the tools arent there to be a #1 WR. 

 

I dont think anyone's hating on him. I recognize he's a good player and may be a play maker. But when i look at everything outside his speed, i see average to pretty good. So if you take him high, you're placing a pretty big investment at that speed -- bc it is what will separate him in the NFL and make him truly dangerous. His ability to separate, get YAC, make big plays - all tied to that speed.

And a guy with 2 bad knee injuries already, makes that big of an investment unwise imo. If you hit the jackpot, great.... if you dont you used the 16th pick to maybe get a Tyler Lockett type player, and if the injuries show up and sap his speed you have a guy who likely isnt serviceable in the NFL.

If he didnt have 4.2 speed, and more like 4.45-4.5 speed - no ones touching him in the top 2-3 rounds.

That I have to disagree with. With 4.5 speed, he'd still be a great route runner with good hands that has a knack for scoring in the redzone. He'd basically be a young Edelman, and still go in the 2nd.

[arnie_uk]

1 minute ago, RaineV1 said:

That I have to disagree with. With 4.5 speed, he'd still be a great route runner with good hands that has a knack for scoring in the redzone. He'd basically be a young Edelman, and still go in the 2nd.

Exactly. It's not his speed that makes him a great prospect

[ellicottraven]

After watching tape of Ross, its entirely possible he'll be the best WR of this draft class just going by speed, ball catching ability and being a deep threat. He can beat you so many ways. But, the only cause for concern would be his health. Can he stay healthy under the rigors of the NFL dealing with press corners, etc.? If he is proven to be durable, I think he could be stellar. Now, the question becomes do we need all that speed having Wallace and Perriman already on the team? I believe Ross to be a complete WR with just the bonus of great speed. So yes, with Flacco under center you can never stack the box with these WRs in play. This will open up the running game to make our offense potent again and give Flacco the breathing room to operate efficiently.

[arnie_uk]

On 06/04/2017 at 0:41 PM, JoeyFlex5 said:

Oh really? Give an example of him having hands, body control, or a ball attacking mentality. Those are raw skills, not routes which can be picked up by any player who doesn't have stiff hips

 

On 06/04/2017 at 2:19 PM, rossihunter2 said:

i mean if its not on film then its not on film... stats dont tell every story

 

52 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Ok, but the injuries are real. And if you acknowledge they're a reason not to take him above 16... why is it so wrong to not want to take him at 16.

He has the injuries for that reason. He's like 5'11", 180lbs. With bad knees.

Speeds the first thing to go with bad knees.

Take away the speed, and the tools arent there to be a #1 WR. 

 

I dont think anyone's hating on him. I recognize he's a good player and may be a play maker. But when i look at everything outside his speed, i see average to pretty good. So if you take him high, you're placing a pretty big investment at that speed -- bc it is what will separate him in the NFL and make him truly dangerous. His ability to separate, get YAC, make big plays - all tied to that speed.

And a guy with 2 bad knee injuries already, makes that big of an investment unwise imo. If you hit the jackpot, great.... if you dont you used the 16th pick to maybe get a Tyler Lockett type player, and if the injuries show up and sap his speed you have a guy who likely isnt serviceable in the NFL.

If he didnt have 4.2 speed, and more like 4.45-4.5 speed - no ones touching him in the top 2-3 rounds.

You obviously didn't see these posts @BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[Tru11]

52 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Ok, but the injuries are real. And if you acknowledge they're a reason not to take him above 16... why is it so wrong to not want to take him at 16.

He has the injuries for that reason. He's like 5'11", 180lbs. With bad knees.

Speeds the first thing to go with bad knees.

Take away the speed, and the tools arent there to be a #1 WR. 

 

I dont think anyone's hating on him. I recognize he's a good player and may be a play maker. But when i look at everything outside his speed, i see average to pretty good. So if you take him high, you're placing a pretty big investment at that speed -- bc it is what will separate him in the NFL and make him truly dangerous. His ability to separate, get YAC, make big plays - all tied to that speed.

And a guy with 2 bad knee injuries already, makes that big of an investment unwise imo. If you hit the jackpot, great.... if you dont you used the 16th pick to maybe get a Tyler Lockett type player, and if the injuries show up and sap his speed you have a guy who likely isnt serviceable in the NFL.

If he didnt have 4.2 speed, and more like 4.45-4.5 speed - no ones touching him in the top 2-3 rounds.

speed is useless in the redzone where ironically ross shined more then any other WR in the draft....

 

 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

3 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

who are these elite QBs that have to rely on their WRs to make miraculous catches?

better yet id like to know what % of the catches that these WRS made can be labeled are miraculous.

 

 

It's not relying on a WR to make miraculous catches, in the sense that they couldnt produce or be effective without it, but it brings another dimension to your offense. We're talking about the type of WR thats open even when he's not. The type of guy that when it's 3rd and 8 in the 4th qtr and the D has 7-8 guys dropped in zone and there's nowhere open to go with the ball, that'll demand the ball no matter what, go up and get it.

The guy that dominates in the red zone. A guy that makes 50/50 balls 75/25 or 100/0. 

When you have that guy.... no you dont have to rely on it, but when you know he's capable of doing that 1-2 times a game then you have confidence when the games on the line and maybe take a chance you wouldnt have otherwise. You dont need to see as big an open window when throwing his direction to have the confidence to rifle it in there.

 

And hes not talking about throwing bad passes over a guys head or forcing diving catches. We're talking about the when the WR's running a crossing route or slant, instead of having the perfect precision that hits him in stride without breaking pace (like Brees, Brady often do) maybe misplacing it a little bit so that it hits him right in the numbers instead of out in front of him... so he has to slow down a bit and maybe box out the CB's arm trying to make a play to break it up. 

Also, there are times when you just cant throw the perfect ball. The D plays great coverage and the typical windows just arent open.... and maybe you have to place the ball a bit high, down low, or behind him -- a spot where the DB cant make a play but you give the WR a chance to.

Regardless of how good a QB is, these types of plays/situations present themselves A LOT in the course of a game. Especially with a QB like Joe who's best asset isnt perfect accuracy on the short/intermediate stuff... but absolutely can make the impossible throws or fire a ball into the tightest of windows 15-20 yards down field.

 

So, theres nothing wrong with thinking that this team is missing that type of guy. The one who can make the body adjustments to available in those small, imperfect windows.... the one who will go up high, down low, reach behind, box out, or take the hit and still secure the ball. The one who knows hes open no matter what the Defense does.

Ross can be and very may well be a play maker. But he doesnt present those qualities. Perriman might learn to offer some of that, but mostly down the field -- not in the traffic and over the middle. Wallace doesnt offer those abilities.

We have big play ability. We have guys who can take a 1 yd pass and turn it into an 80 yard TD. We have guys who can get open 15-20 yds down field with speed. With Ross we have more of that, maybe even better of that, but we dont have what we're missing in those tight, crunch time situations that often decide games.

And if you want to be a ball control, balanced, physical running team... then you almost NEED that missing element. Because you're going to put yourself in a lot of 3rd and 4's with the blitz raining down where Joe will have to just fire a ball to a hot route that may or may not be open and just trust he'll catch it. We're going to be in some close games thatll come down to needing a TD from the 15 yd line with time expiring, and needing a guy that can fight through the crowded end zone and catch the ball while taking a big hit.... or when needing a FG to tie in the 4th while at the 50 yd line and needing 15 yds to get into FG position, the guy who will get to the boundary and let Joe just throw it over his shoulder while he boxes out the CB and makes the catch falling out of bounds.

 

Joe's biggest strengths are his arm, getting the ball deep, making throws others cant all over the field, and being BIG TIME when the game is in the balance. We need a WR to match those qualities. It's obvious that his best connections have been with guys who showed him those qualities (Boldin, Pitta before injuries, Heap, SSS). And Mike Williams is the epitome of that.

John Ross, for the good qualities he does have, he is not that.