JoeyFlex5

Why the john Ross hype?

115 posts in this topic

So much john Ross hype lately, can anyone explain it without being totally hypocritical? Let's compare 2 players here... 

john Ross, had hype as a late first/early second guy based on tape, known as a burner, shows good routes but has never shown an ability to really go up and get the ball, very passive catching style. 

Breshad perriman, hype as a late first/early second guy based on tape, known as a burner, routes need work but has a knack for the spectacular catch and also some focus drops.

Both gained hype with great 40 times. 

Breshad perriman, bashed by fans because supposedly we only drafted him for his 40 time. relentlessly bashed by fans because he had focus drops, relentlessly bashed over a season ending injury that was grossly mishandled by he staff, so much so that the fans accused him of faking an injury to collect a check (???) 

john Ross, praise heaped upon him for a 40 time, despite him being pretty purely a burner he has hype to the ravens even though we already have 2 burners with questionable catching ability. And after all the bashing to perriman over his injuries(although he had none in college) we wanna take a guy who just played his first healthy season? 

Lets throw another 2 players in the mix for comparisons sake. Brandin cooks, a guy who gets a lot of Ross comps, however, while the shifty aspect(and even then cooks coming out was far more shifty) Ross simply doesn't catch the ball as well, rosses catching style is more comparable to another guy that ravens fans bashed for not going up and getting the ball often enough... Torrey smith. He is a guy who runs under the ball and lets it come to his body, rather than going up and getting it. 

Now ross could be special, 4.22 official speed is ridiculous, and the guy can get open with more than just speed, but do we really want another wr who can't bail out joe when he needs his man to make a tight catch? I don't, and I personally feel like the hype surrounding him to the ravens is extremely hypocritical when considering that our current and past WRs have been bashed for problems that Ross suffers as well.

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Hypocritical and not listening to what's been going on. The Ravens were not interested in any free agency burners/deep ball guys except for torrey smith (because of his prior connection) - our targets were always thought to be guys like garçon, Marshall etc. - possession guys...

so why would that attitude change just because an undersized speedster is suddenly available in he draft? No one was clamouring for him before the combine which suggests to me he wouldn't be worth the pick - the combine shouldn't raise someone that far - it should be used to confirm/challenge/remind of prospects abilities and qualities 

the Ravens have not struggled to move the ball between the 20s - their struggles have been in converting 3s to 7s which suggests that "complementary" in this sense is going to refer to an outside receiver/big-bodied guy with length who can make a play in the end zone - john Ross is not that guy on tape or physically

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36 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

Hypocritical and not listening to what's been going on. The Ravens were not interested in any free agency burners/deep ball guys except for torrey smith (because of his prior connection) - our targets were always thought to be guys like garçon, Marshall etc. - possession guys...

so why would that attitude change just because an undersized speedster is suddenly available in he draft? No one was clamouring for him before the combine which suggests to me he wouldn't be worth the pick - the combine shouldn't raise someone that far - it should be used to confirm/challenge/remind of prospects abilities and qualities 

the Ravens have not struggled to move the ball between the 20s - their struggles have been in converting 3s to 7s which suggests that "complementary" in this sense is going to refer to an outside receiver/big-bodied guy with length who can make a play in the end zone - john Ross is not that guy on tape or physically

Spot on. It's also worth mentioning we wanted to bring in Torrey because it would allow us to lose Wallace and save lots of money, but I don't think we're looking into that option anymore. I can't remember if the ravens had to pick up a year 2 option or if it was a 2 year deal where they decide to cut or keep, but if it's the former then I think we can basically write off ross.

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6 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Spot on. It's also worth mentioning we wanted to bring in Torrey because it would allow us to lose Wallace and save lots of money, but I don't think we're looking into that option anymore. I can't remember if the ravens had to pick up a year 2 option or if it was a 2 year deal where they decide to cut or keep, but if it's the former then I think we can basically write off ross.

I think it was a year 2 option that they decided to pick up. 

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I'm not the biggest Ross fan, but I think some people are overthinking it a bit.

Ross is a playmaker, and this team is really short on playmakers.  Most people look at the 4.22 speed and think he's only a downfield guy but he can function in a lot of different roles as a WR.  He's not the prototypical chains mover type but that doesn't mean he wouldn't fit here.

Furthermore, Wallace is going to be here for 1 more year, Moore might have actually dropped more than he caught last year, and Perriman is still a work in progress that remains a giant question mark.  There's certainly room for Ross even with all of the other "speed" guys we have.

I'd prefer not to take Ross at 16 but I can't dismiss the possibility.

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1 hour ago, rmw10 said:

I'm not the biggest Ross fan, but I think some people are overthinking it a bit.

Ross is a playmaker, and this team is really short on playmakers.  Most people look at the 4.22 speed and think he's only a downfield guy but he can function in a lot of different roles as a WR.  He's not the prototypical chains mover type but that doesn't mean he wouldn't fit here.

Furthermore, Wallace is going to be here for 1 more year, Moore might have actually dropped more than he caught last year, and Perriman is still a work in progress that remains a giant question mark.  There's certainly room for Ross even with all of the other "speed" guys we have.

I'd prefer not to take Ross at 16 but I can't dismiss the possibility.

i think the thing that a lot of people are forgetting though is that he wasnt worth the number 16 pick before he ran the 4.22 so why should he be now? i saw virtually no one who thought he was a top 20 guy before he ran and now everyone's like 'oh he's easily a top 15 playmaker but it's not because of the speed'... well what changed? the obvious answer is he ran a 4.22 at the combine despite what everyone says

you're right he would still be a useful guy to have but at 16? no thanks - he's an undersized receiver who doesn't high point the ball and has a history of injuries - at that point he would have to be an absolute world beater to be worth the 16th pick given the other players who will also be on the board at 16 and his film doesnt show that at all

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2 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

i think the thing that a lot of people are forgetting though is that he wasnt worth the number 16 pick before he ran the 4.22 so why should he be now? i saw virtually no one who thought he was a top 20 guy before he ran and now everyone's like 'oh he's easily a top 15 playmaker but it's not because of the speed'... well what changed? the obvious answer is he ran a 4.22 at the combine despite what everyone says

you're right he would still be a useful guy to have but at 16? no thanks - he's an undersized receiver who doesn't high point the ball and has a history of injuries - at that point he would have to be an absolute world beater to be worth the 16th pick given the other players who will also be on the board at 16 and his film doesnt show that at all

Well, it depends.  If you're someone that had him ranked in the early 20s already, is 16 really that far of a leap?  I personally had him late 20s so that's why I'm not a huge fan of taking him at 16, but I can see why people would give him a slight bump.

It all comes down to how you evaluate the player.  While you personally might not have had as high of a grade on him pre-combine, so people could have.

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Never got the hype.

Hes blazing fast and may very well be a playmaker in the league, but a lot of his other qualities are over exaggerated bc of the speed. Hes not as one dimensional as most "speed" receivers, but hes not great at anything else. Without the speed, theres nothing else that really stands out. And, as a guy who's struggled with injuries, it's hard for me to want to invest in that speed - bc speed is usually the first thing that goes.

And when i watch his tape, i see CB's giving him a TON of cushion. Which i think makes his route running look better than it really is. He's got some wiggle, but his footwork really isnt that crisp... he just breaks or cuts off his routes sometime when hes being given a huge cushion... and from there his speed/wiggle can make plays in the open field. But i dont see that being reliable in the NFL. Guys are gonna get physical with him, which opens up the big play, but then hes essentially reduced to a big play threat -- which is the opposite of why some argue taking him at 16.

 

Plus, I just dont see Joe maximizing him. Joe works best with receivers that he can rifle it in to a bigger window, who he trusts to bring it down. A guy like Ross who tends to let the ball into his body is going to require far more touch and accuracy, and with his blazing speed if you really are going to use him on underneath stuff, you need a QB that can accurately lead him. Thats never been Joe's strengths. 

The best way to use him with Joe would be to just launch it downfield and let him run under.... which again, is limiting his use to a deep threat. Not worth it at 16.

 

I'd Williams, Howard or even Davis at 16. Otherwise wait for JuJu, Kupp.... or just wait til next year when there's like 7 receivers better than Ross imo.

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1 hour ago, rmw10 said:

I'm not the biggest Ross fan, but I think some people are overthinking it a bit.

Ross is a playmaker, and this team is really short on playmakers.  Most people look at the 4.22 speed and think he's only a downfield guy but he can function in a lot of different roles as a WR.  He's not the prototypical chains mover type but that doesn't mean he wouldn't fit here.

Furthermore, Wallace is going to be here for 1 more year, Moore might have actually dropped more than he caught last year, and Perriman is still a work in progress that remains a giant question mark.  There's certainly room for Ross even with all of the other "speed" guys we have.

I'd prefer not to take Ross at 16 but I can't dismiss the possibility.

Oh I agree, there's a place for him on this roster, I just don't like his fit here compared to some of the talents that should be there at 16.

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29 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Never got the hype.

Hes blazing fast and may very well be a playmaker in the league, but a lot of his other qualities are over exaggerated bc of the speed. Hes not as one dimensional as most "speed" receivers, but hes not great at anything else. Without the speed, theres nothing else that really stands out. And, as a guy who's struggled with injuries, it's hard for me to want to invest in that speed - bc speed is usually the first thing that goes.

And when i watch his tape, i see CB's giving him a TON of cushion. Which i think makes his route running look better than it really is. He's got some wiggle, but his footwork really isnt that crisp... he just breaks or cuts off his routes sometime when hes being given a huge cushion... and from there his speed/wiggle can make plays in the open field. But i dont see that being reliable in the NFL. Guys are gonna get physical with him, which opens up the big play, but then hes essentially reduced to a big play threat -- which is the opposite of why some argue taking him at 16.

 

Plus, I just dont see Joe maximizing him. Joe works best with receivers that he can rifle it in to a bigger window, who he trusts to bring it down. A guy like Ross who tends to let the ball into his body is going to require far more touch and accuracy, and with his blazing speed if you really are going to use him on underneath stuff, you need a QB that can accurately lead him. Thats never been Joe's strengths. 

The best way to use him with Joe would be to just launch it downfield and let him run under.... which again, is limiting his use to a deep threat. Not worth it at 16.

 

I'd Williams, Howard or even Davis at 16. Otherwise wait for JuJu, Kupp.... or just wait til next year when there's like 7 receivers better than Ross imo.

Your 3rd paragraph is exactly how I feel. I want a guy who doesn't require a precise timing throw every time he gets it underneath, his catch radius is way too small for my liking

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His injury history just really worries me. And I'm not sure if he fits Flacco well.

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Ross can get that fast separation needed for the  conversions. Wallace and Perriman can't. He isn't my favorite player at 16. He is about as shifty as Cooks. But if he will not highpoint like Cooks that is a problem. I like Ardarius in round2 better. He is fast shifty physical and will highpoint throws.

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Never really understood the Cooks comparison. Size wise yes but they play very differently. He reminds me much more of TY Hilton in playing style. Both are very proficient and productive deep threats--they are the type of guys who once they establish themselves as a deep threat they get separation because of the cushion that DBs must give them. Cooks on the other hand is a guy I see who establishes separation because of his disturbing quickness at the top of his routes/when coming out of breaks and works the inside, outside and deep. I think Ross is a really good player and could have a career like Hilton, he isn't my favourite for us but I think he could do very well as he is an amazing perimeter/deep threat playmaker

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His 40 time got him "graded twice" so to speak. Everybody knew before the combine that he was really fast. I don't know why his 40 matters that much. His hands let him down and his routes are not anything special- he'll occasionally freeze a CB with a stutter step, but that's not going to work as often in the pros. He might give a spark on a few splash plays now and then, but I don't see him turning into the kind of reliable receiver that is going to consistently move the chains. 

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3 hours ago, Dubs said:

Never really understood the Cooks comparison. Size wise yes but they play very differently. He reminds me much more of TY Hilton in playing style. Both are very proficient and productive deep threats--they are the type of guys who once they establish themselves as a deep threat they get separation because of the cushion that DBs must give them. Cooks on the other hand is a guy I see who establishes separation because of his disturbing quickness at the top of his routes/when coming out of breaks and works the inside, outside and deep. I think Ross is a really good player and could have a career like Hilton, he isn't my favourite for us but I think he could do very well as he is an amazing perimeter/deep threat playmaker

I actually like the Hilton comp. 

and like Hilton I think Ross could thrive with a QB like Luck who can get it down field but also is very accurate underneath and leads guys to open grass. 

Joe, for all his strengths, just has never been great at doing that. So while Ross might be a very good big play threat with Joe, I don't see the all around game developing here. And if not... well we already have 2 guys that can take the top off and NEED someone who can take advantage of the space underneath with Joe. 

Thats a guy like Mike Williams, JuJu, maybe even Cooper Kupp or Ryan Switzer later... guys who hands catch, have pretty large catch radii, and can make the grab in traffic while getting hit. 

And if not... I'd rather wait til next draft when there should be 6-7 WRs worth taking in the 1st round and better than Ross (imo, for us) at every point in the 1st. 

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6 hours ago, PurpleHorseman said:

Ross can get that fast separation needed for the  conversions. Wallace and Perriman can't. He isn't my favorite player at 16. He is about as shifty as Cooks. But if he will not highpoint like Cooks that is a problem. I like Ardarius in round2 better. He is fast shifty physical and will highpoint throws.

Cooks coming out was wayyy shiftier and more smooth and crisp with his routes. He could take a hard 90 degree cut without even chopping his feet or dropping his hips, he gave almost zero indication that a cut was coming. Ross isn't on that level 

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If we take Ross at 16 I'll be the first to stop pointing out what I see as weaknesses or as not fitting our team, focus on the upside and get on board with it. 

But until then I just can't see us going that route with so many other potentially better options available. 

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1 minute ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

If we take Ross at 16 I'll be the first to stop pointing out what I see as weaknesses or as not fitting our team, focus on the upside and get on board with it. 

But until then I just can't see us going that route with so many other potentially better options available. 

Same. That's what I did with perriman and kaufusi as well, and it's what I usually do in general when we take a guy I don't love. 

If we take ross, I understand the potential impact, I'll look at that rather than the potential misfit with our team

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2 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Same. That's what I did with perriman and kaufusi as well, and it's what I usually do in general when we take a guy I don't love. 

If we take ross, I understand the potential impact, I'll look at that rather than the potential misfit with our team

I can't see myself getting over this one necessarily if it happens just because of the rare quality and depth in this draft - i can forgive 2013 and 2015 because those drafts generally were not as high quality as this one or 2014 and I can forgive 2016 because so many of those picks have already panned out

ill freely admit when I'm wrong but I can't see myself ever being able to truly get behind a John Ross pick at 16

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10 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I actually like the Hilton comp. 

and like Hilton I think Ross could thrive with a QB like Luck who can get it down field but also is very accurate underneath and leads guys to open grass. 

Joe, for all his strengths, just has never been great at doing that. So while Ross might be a very good big play threat with Joe, I don't see the all around game developing here. And if not... well we already have 2 guys that can take the top off and NEED someone who can take advantage of the space underneath with Joe. 

Thats a guy like Mike Williams, JuJu, maybe even Cooper Kupp or Ryan Switzer later... guys who hands catch, have pretty large catch radii, and can make the grab in traffic while getting hit. 

And if not... I'd rather wait til next draft when there should be 6-7 WRs worth taking in the 1st round and better than Ross (imo, for us) at every point in the 1st. 

I never really think a draft class ahead - out of interest, who are you thinking of as the 6/7 first round guys for next year at this point?

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7 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

I can't see myself getting over this one necessarily if it happens just because of the rare quality and depth in this draft - i can forgive 2013 and 2015 because those drafts generally were not as high quality as this one or 2014 and I can forgive 2016 because so many of those picks have already panned out

ill freely admit when I'm wrong but I can't see myself ever being able to truly get behind a John Ross pick at 16

See I'll always immediately get on board bc I'm never one to take the stance that I know more or better than our FO and scouting dept. 

if they see someone as worth it at 16 who am I to say otherwise?? I have my thoughts and opinions... and disagreement is fine. But I'm not going to say they're wrong - so I'll get on board until proven otherwise. 

Bc it's a lot easier for me to sit here and take a stand on the one or few times I may end up right.... but going back through the years the amount of times a prospect I loved was a total bust or picks I was immediately "meh" about us making turned out great far outnumber the opposite. 

 

Plus as a fan I will never put myself in a position where it's in my interest for something the team did to not work out. To hold that stance on Ross if we pick him -- would mean he'd have to bust for that stance to be worth while. I'm not doing that. 

Much rather root for the guy and hope he takes the league by storm and be wrong. The 'I told ya so' moment isn't a win for me bc it hurts the team, and my stance won't ever change the pick... so focus on the upside and hope for it. 

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47 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

See I'll always immediately get on board bc I'm never one to take the stance that I know more or better than our FO and scouting dept. 

if they see someone as worth it at 16 who am I to say otherwise?? I have my thoughts and opinions... and disagreement is fine. But I'm not going to say they're wrong - so I'll get on board until proven otherwise. 

Bc it's a lot easier for me to sit here and take a stand on the one or few times I may end up right.... but going back through the years the amount of times a prospect I loved was a total bust or picks I was immediately "meh" about us making turned out great far outnumber the opposite. 

 

Plus as a fan I will never put myself in a position where it's in my interest for something the team did to not work out. To hold that stance on Ross if we pick him -- would mean he'd have to bust for that stance to be worth while. I'm not doing that. 

Much rather root for the guy and hope he takes the league by storm and be wrong. The 'I told ya so' moment isn't a win for me bc it hurts the team, and my stance won't ever change the pick... so focus on the upside and hope for it. 

Oh I'm not saying I wouldn't root for it to work out - I'm just saying I'd find it difficult in this instance to actively support/back the pick or buy in at all - it would be more of a hope for the best but don't expect much kind of situation

and of course I could easily be won over by the pick if it pans out but until that happened I'd be hard pressed to just forget what I've seen on tape and throw out some hard-won personal opinions on his abilities

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I don't really like your comparisons tbh.

Perriman has a clear height and size advantage on Ross, which showed at times when he would win more 50/50 balls. Ross's drops don't even compare to how bad Perriman's were imo. Plus Perriman never seemed to play at a speed that gave me the impression he had 4.2 speed, whereas Ross's 40-time confirms what I already saw on the field. The knee injuries were never a concern for Perriman, at least not pre-draft, whereas Ross has very worrisome knee concerns. 

Cooks struck me as a stronger player, which showed when it came to fighting for contested balls, whereas Ross is more about getting open and avoiding catches in traffic (more of a finesse player). I get the height and quickness comparisons, but I just don't agree with the comparison overall (and you're hardly the first to compare Ross to Cooks). Maybe it's my analysis of Cooks that differs from everyone else--I always thought he was a stronger, feistier receiver at Oregon St. in addition to being able to get open with his quickness.

I'd compare Ross more to Tavon Austin. Both are small, quick, get open, avoid contact, can turn any catch into a TD, and possess return skills. 

I, personally, wouldn't want Ross at 16, considering his durability concerns and how Flacco kind of under-utilizes quicker WRs like Ross due to his poor accuracy, but I wouldn't be totally bummed-out like I would if we drafted Foster or one of the underwhelming RT prospects because Ross is actually a playmaker. Sure, a bigger WR who can win those jump-balls that Flacco loves to throw would be preferable, but we need multiple receivers anyway. I'm not sold on any of the WRs currently on the roster being re-signed when their respective contracts expire, so in looking at the long-term, I see a spot for Ross on this roster even if drafting him still means we need a big possession receiver. 

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There's absolutely nothing other than his 40y record that screams round 1 to me. Injuries, rarely saw press-man (that shotgun had their opponents play a ton of off man and zone), not even a great route runner (someone had posted two gifa of him running a quick slant and even there you could see too much wasted motion).

Coleman, Cooks, Landry were all better prospects comig out of college.

He would fit better in the Will Fuller/Davin Smith category.

He's not a fit at the moment and with how deep the first tier is I don't expect him to be the BPA. Neither I understand how so many analysts can keep mocking him at us. It's like they didn't even take a look at our roster.

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I'd say I'm one of the Captain's on his hype train, but even if you don't want him at 16, I don't get the hate. 

I get that Flacco is imperfect and has bad accuracy at times, but I think Ross is still a threat and play maker waiting to happen. He probably would be best utilized in a place like NO, GB, or NE. I just have a hunch that he will either be our pick or that he will tear it up next year. 

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10 hours ago, Maryland said:

I don't really like your comparisons tbh.

Perriman has a clear height and size advantage on Ross, which showed at times when he would win more 50/50 balls. Ross's drops don't even compare to how bad Perriman's were imo. Plus Perriman never seemed to play at a speed that gave me the impression he had 4.2 speed, whereas Ross's 40-time confirms what I already saw on the field. The knee injuries were never a concern for Perriman, at least not pre-draft, whereas Ross has very worrisome knee concerns. 

Cooks struck me as a stronger player, which showed when it came to fighting for contested balls, whereas Ross is more about getting open and avoiding catches in traffic (more of a finesse player). I get the height and quickness comparisons, but I just don't agree with the comparison overall (and you're hardly the first to compare Ross to Cooks). Maybe it's my analysis of Cooks that differs from everyone else--I always thought he was a stronger, feistier receiver at Oregon St. in addition to being able to get open with his quickness.

I'd compare Ross more to Tavon Austin. Both are small, quick, get open, avoid contact, can turn any catch into a TD, and possess return skills. 

I, personally, wouldn't want Ross at 16, considering his durability concerns and how Flacco kind of under-utilizes quicker WRs like Ross due to his poor accuracy, but I wouldn't be totally bummed-out like I would if we drafted Foster or one of the underwhelming RT prospects because Ross is actually a playmaker. Sure, a bigger WR who can win those jump-balls that Flacco loves to throw would be preferable, but we need multiple receivers anyway. I'm not sold on any of the WRs currently on the roster being re-signed when their respective contracts expire, so in looking at the long-term, I see a spot for Ross on this roster even if drafting him still means we need a big possession receiver. 

I think you're misunderstanding my use of the word comparison. I'm not trying to really compare them, I'm more cross referencing fans complaints about one player and using that to ask why fans would board the hype train? If you hate perriman because of his injuries then why clamor for Ross who's a big injury concern? If you hate receivers that can't fight for the ball then why draft one at 16? Not actually comparing him to perriman.

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20 hours ago, rossihunter2 said:

I never really think a draft class ahead - out of interest, who are you thinking of as the 6/7 first round guys for next year at this point?

I don't either... it's just that WR and RB seem stacked near the top. 

And I haven't done a whole lot of watching them yet... some just popped off while watching guys for this draft and others I've seen rated highly by draft guys.... so I'm not great with the names yet --

 

But Ridley from Bama and this kid from SMU I believe... both big bodied, tough, can jump and get it type guys. 

Theres a kid from Texas A&M Kirk who looks dynamic and explosive. Big time returner, incredible in the open field but also a good route runner and amazing hands. Reminds me a bit of Odell how smooth he runs and catches. 

I like Kirk and Ridley better than any WR in this draft.

Callaway from Florida.

Then there's a WR from OK St who I like a lot. I think a kid at FSU.

And the Ohio St has this kid Parris who hasn't done anything yet but is expected to have a breakout year. 

 

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1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I don't either... it's just that WR and RB seem stacked near the top. 

And I haven't done a whole lot of watching them yet... some just popped off while watching guys for this draft and others I've seen rated highly by draft guys.... so I'm not great with the names yet --

 

But Ridley from Bama and this kid from SMU I believe... both big bodied, tough, can jump and get it type guys. 

Theres a kid from Texas A&M Kirk who looks dynamic and explosive. Big time returner, incredible in the open field but also a good route runner and amazing hands. Reminds me a bit of Odell how smooth he runs and catches. 

I like Kirk and Ridley better than any WR in this draft.

Callaway from Florida.

Then there's a WR from OK St who I like a lot. I think a kid at FSU.

And the Ohio St has this kid Parris who hasn't done anything yet but is expected to have a breakout year. 

 

From what I've seen of Ridley, I'm not in love with him but maybe some of that is on having Jalen hurts at qb

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27 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

From what I've seen of Ridley, I'm not in love with him but maybe some of that is on having Jalen hurts at qb

I expected more from Ridley this year. After his previous season I thought he was gonna burst onto the scene as the best wr in the nation

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