First Round Reaches

[52520Andrew]

1 hour ago, -Truth- said:

Solid points. Beckham Jr. was one of my favorite prospects in the entire draft, but he was better in contested situations. He had some of the best hands I've ever seen on a prospect, and I don't feel that his situation is comparable to Ross'. I personally like Ross. But I'm also not entirely on board with the Brandin Cooks comparisons. Having watched Cooks extensively since his college days, I felt that Cooks was better on 50/50 throws. He also had sharper cuts in the open field. Ross is obviously no slouch himself there, but the point remains.

Yeah Beckham had good speed, great route running and hands, he was something else. Really liked Cooks as well and not comfortable saying that Ross is that kinda player

I think a more polished Tyreek Hill is where I would go if I made a comparison

[jboy19]

Late, but I think Obi Melifonwu and TJ Watt are going to be surprise Round 1 guys. Not a huge fan of either but they seem to have picked up steam. 

[ravensnation5220]

2 hours ago, jboy19 said:

Late, but I think Obi Melifonwu and TJ Watt are going to be surprise Round 1 guys. Not a huge fan of either but they seem to have picked up steam. 

I could see melifonwu but idk about watt. I couldn't see him go ahead of Charles Harris. I'm honestly surprised he's been getting mocked in the second rounds. He's a first round talent to me

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, ravensnation5220 said:

I could see melifonwu but idk about watt. I couldn't see him go ahead of Charles Harris. I'm honestly surprised he's been getting mocked in the second rounds. He's a first round talent to me

I have a hard time believing most NFL scouts would like Harris over watt. Watts tape is so much better and then he made big leaps athletically when he began training for the combine. Harris has a great first step but he is missing a lot of tools and he is so bad against the run he may not be able to figure it out at the next level 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I have a hard time believing most NFL scouts would like Harris over watt. Watts tape is so much better and then he made big leaps athletically when he began training for the combine. Harris has a great first step but he is missing a lot of tools and he is so bad against the run he may not be able to figure it out at the next level 

I could see Harris over Watt if they're looking for a pure pass rusher to help immediately... especially on a near contending team that has two established starters on the edge and is just looking for more heat on 3rd downs -- which is prob around the area both these guys would start becoming a consideration. 

Watt's more ready to step into a 3 down, starting role day 1 but there's only 2-3 guys I have ahead of Harris from a pure pass rushing perspective. 

A team like Pitt is could see wanting Watt over Harris if they go OLB, but I could see maybe ATL preferring Harris if they were to. 

[RavensDieHard21]

7 hours ago, 52520Andrew said:

Yeah Ross has some crazy quickness and can get separation on just about anyone, people seem to value route running but that is something that can be taught. And it isn't like Ross is Mike Evans in college who pretty much ran streaks and hooks, Ross has some solid moves and could torch NFL guys with his speed and could win underneath against corners afraid of getting beat deep. You will never teach his quickness. Also if the Washington QB could throw a deep ball, his stats would look insane, routinely was battling for underthrown balls on routes he clearly won with. Injuries are my biggest concern with Ross but if his health checks out and that is a big if, I think he could come out of this draft as the best WR. 

And I don't think Ross is the guy we need to get or anything, I think there are other positions we need to address and this is a great chance to get ourselves a good edge rusher but I would completely understand us making the pick. 

Yes I agree. I'm not campaigning for him, but just stating that the hate for him as a potential pick is unwarranted. I'd rather land Foster, Barnett, Tim or Mike Williams, but there is a chance Ross is BPA. The injuries do concern me, but look at a guy like CJ who had nagging injuries while at Bama but has been great for us.

[ravensnation5220]

3 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I have a hard time believing most NFL scouts would like Harris over watt. Watts tape is so much better and then he made big leaps athletically when he began training for the combine. Harris has a great first step but he is missing a lot of tools and he is so bad against the run he may not be able to figure it out at the next level 

See now your looking too much into the combine and how they look in shorts. Harris looks like the better pure pass rusher. He bends and has much better get off. Thats what today's NFL is all about. I thought you'd see that more than anyone. Harris has the potential to be an elite double digit sack man in the NFL. I don't see that with watt. Yes watt can be a more complete player but I see a more consistent pass rusher in Harris. 

[Italian Raven]

5 hours ago, ravensnation5220 said:

See now your looking too much into the combine and how they look in shorts. Harris looks like the better pure pass rusher. He bends and has much better get off. Thats what today's NFL is all about. I thought you'd see that more than anyone. Harris has the potential to be an elite double digit sack man in the NFL. I don't see that with watt. Yes watt can be a more complete player but I see a more consistent pass rusher in Harris. 

What people also forget is that Watt has had 3 significant muscolar injuries since his freshman year.

It might not be a big deal, although I didn't think Harris and Watt carry the same value at 16 before to read about it, let alone now. I'd be much more comfortable with the former.

[JoeyFlex5]

5 hours ago, ravensnation5220 said:

See now your looking too much into the combine and how they look in shorts. Harris looks like the better pure pass rusher. He bends and has much better get off. Thats what today's NFL is all about. I thought you'd see that more than anyone. Harris has the potential to be an elite double digit sack man in the NFL. I don't see that with watt. Yes watt can be a more complete player but I see a more consistent pass rusher in Harris. 

Harris doesn't have the bend you speak of though and he has really bad decision making. I'm not putting too much stock into the combine, just taking note that he made a drastic improvement from where he was during the season. 

Harris has a great first step, but the more you watch the more you'll notice the mental lapses and missed opportunities. He has a lot of moments where he has an opportunity to turn the corner but continues to speed rush past the pocket, he mistimes his counter moves often and comes too late with it, and he is too reliant on the bullrush. His anticipation and flexibility are really weak

The more I've watched Harris the more I've noticed he's that kind of guy who is just always a step behind mentally, he was a great college rusher but I could really see him failing to make the adjustment. Tj watt is a guy who I think hasn't even scratched the surface, he had one year of college ball and was dominant on film in all aspects and shows NFL traits, the awareness and the natural shedding ability are just some things that look like an NFL skill set

Edited March 30 by JoeyFlex5

[raven94]

3 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Harris doesn't have the bend you speak of though and he has really bad decision making. I'm not putting too much stock into the combine, just taking note that he made a drastic improvement from where he was during the season. 

Harris has a great first step, but the more you watch the more you'll notice the mental lapses and missed opportunities. He has a lot of moments where he has an opportunity to turn the corner but continues to speed rush past the pocket, he mistimes his counter moves often and comes too late with it, and he is too reliant on the bullrush. His anticipation and flexibility are really weak

The more I've watched Harris the more I've noticed he's that kind of guy who is just always a step behind mentally, he was a great college rusher but I could really see him failing to make the adjustment. Tj watt is a guy who I think hasn't even scratched the surface, he had one year of college ball and was dominant on film in all aspects and shows NFL traits, the awareness and the natural shedding ability are just some things that look like an NFL skill set

Not to mention unreal length and hand size to go along with hand strength. He's also got the mental side down because he showed times where he has a great get off and can rush, but he also showed times where he recognized he didn't need to get deeper than the quarterback on a passing down which can create the illusion of pressure as well as actually help the OLB get to the QB if the tackle over sets. Charles Harris, whether he can or can't doesn't matter because he never does, pretty much always just keeps rushing to the outside on a wide arc and doesn't actually use footwork. His spin move works every so often, but that's about it. He doesn't have much else in his repertoire other than get off and spin. Watt uses the inside, outside, dip and rip, sudden change of direction despite being long, he spins a little as well, and he's shown to use a good swim move.

[JoeyFlex5]

9 minutes ago, raven94 said:

Not to mention unreal length and hand size to go along with hand strength. He's also got the mental side down because he showed times where he has a great get off and can rush, but he also showed times where he recognized he didn't need to get deeper than the quarterback on a passing down which can create the illusion of pressure as well as actually help the OLB get to the QB if the tackle over sets. Charles Harris, whether he can or can't doesn't matter because he never does, pretty much always just keeps rushing to the outside on a wide arc and doesn't actually use footwork. His spin move works every so often, but that's about it. He doesn't have much else in his repertoire other than get off and spin. Watt uses the inside, outside, dip and rip, sudden change of direction despite being long, he spins a little as well, and he's shown to use a good swim move.

Pretty spot on, Harris is like the prime example of a great athlete in pads rather than a great football player, he lacks a lot of things that are going to be really hard to coach out of him. 

Although the point about watts injuries is a good one, definitely concerning and honestly I tend to forget about it when talking about him, but definitely a problem. On the field though he's on par with Barnett and Tim Williams in that 2nd tier of edge guys imo.

[JoeyFlex5]

9 hours ago, ravensnation5220 said:

See now your looking too much into the combine and how they look in shorts. Harris looks like the better pure pass rusher. He bends and has much better get off. Thats what today's NFL is all about. I thought you'd see that more than anyone. Harris has the potential to be an elite double digit sack man in the NFL. I don't see that with watt. Yes watt can be a more complete player but I see a more consistent pass rusher in Harris. 

For what you're looking for in a pure rusher, I think Tim williams is more the guy you would want. He's got all the things you're mentioning above(and some of those things Harris actually doesn't do well) and does them all better, and has the kind of football iq and anticipation and decision making you want to see, he does everything Harris can do and more and with NFL level mental abilities

[ravensnation5220]

4 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Harris doesn't have the bend you speak of though and he has really bad decision making. I'm not putting too much stock into the combine, just taking note that he made a drastic improvement from where he was during the season. 

Harris has a great first step, but the more you watch the more you'll notice the mental lapses and missed opportunities. He has a lot of moments where he has an opportunity to turn the corner but continues to speed rush past the pocket, he mistimes his counter moves often and comes too late with it, and he is too reliant on the bullrush. His anticipation and flexibility are really weak

The more I've watched Harris the more I've noticed he's that kind of guy who is just always a step behind mentally, he was a great college rusher but I could really see him failing to make the adjustment. Tj watt is a guy who I think hasn't even scratched the surface, he had one year of college ball and was dominant on film in all aspects and shows NFL traits, the awareness and the natural shedding ability are just some things that look like an NFL skill set

The reason for his mental lapses are because he only played 1 year of high school football. The game is still a little new to him. What I see in Harris is the raw tools to succeed in the NFL. He understands leverage already and knows how to use the tackles momentum against him. He's still very raw and inconsistent at times but it's something you can fix. He won't have to play the run much early in his career and I'd rather mold him into our Olb rather than Williams. I like watt a lot but I don't see the double digit sack production that I see in Harris 

I'm not saying I don't like watt because I really do but he doesn't jump off the tape like Harris does. He often looks like the best player on the feild and can dominate a game.

I don't think you need great IQ to be a pass rusher in the NFL. Vic Beasley and Chandler Jones don't have the greatest football iq yet their athleticism makes them a terror comming off the edge. 

Edited March 30 by ravensnation5220

[JoeyFlex5]

12 minutes ago, ravensnation5220 said:

The reason for his mental lapses are because he only played 1 year of high school football. The game is still a little new to him. What I see in Harris is the raw tools to succeed in the NFL. He understands leverage already and knows how to use the tackles momentum against him. He's still very raw and inconsistent at times but it's something you can fix. He won't have to play the run much early in his career and I'd rather mold him into our Olb rather than Williams. I like watt a lot but I don't see the double digit sack production that I see in Harris 

I just see a inconsistent speed rusher from Harris. I understand he can be coached up but he's got a huge leap to make, its not just technique with him, it's getting him to actually understand the game. I like harris' skill set, and his film is fun to watch, but also frustrating. If he had a good dip and bend around the edge I'd take it a lot easier on him because he can use that speed to gain a step and turn the corner, but he struggles to get low and stay balanced around the edge and looks stiff, and that paired with his weak decision making could just be a bad combination. 

I kinda see some ZDS in his game but with a better first step.

[ravensnation5220]

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I just see a inconsistent speed rusher from Harris. I understand he can be coached up but he's got a huge leap to make, its not just technique with him, it's getting him to actually understand the game. I like harris' skill set, and his film is fun to watch, but also frustrating. If he had a good dip and bend around the edge I'd take it a lot easier on him because he can use that speed to gain a step and turn the corner, but he struggles to get low and stay balanced around the edge and looks stiff, and that paired with his weak decision making could just be a bad combination. 

I kinda see some ZDS in his game but with a better first step.

I see good bend with him. He has the ability to bend for sure. His athleticism allows him to get low to the floor he just doesn't know exactly when to bend at times. Like I said I just see some great pass rushing traits with him and we know how to coach Olbs. But he can definitely bend it's just being consistent with a what point he bends that seems to be the issue

[JoeyFlex5]

27 minutes ago, ravensnation5220 said:

I see good bend with him. He has the ability to bend for sure. His athleticism allows him to get low to the floor he just doesn't know exactly when to bend at times. Like I said I just see some great pass rushing traits with him and we know how to coach Olbs. But he can definitely bend it's just being consistent with a what point he bends that seems to be the issue

I'm not seeing that bend you're referring to, I've watched quite a bit of Charles Harris and really pass rushers in general(I watch far more of them than any group) and I've seen him successfully bend at times, like he had 2 solid ones against vandy, but even the successful ones look shaky and really labored, he bends so stiff and he looks like he is really close to losing balance. For example one of his sacks against vandy, he had an average but successful bend, but he was falling as he began to pursue the qb, he lost his balance completely off of the bend and luckily the qb had no awareness to sidestep and Harris was able to finish while falling down. He is the stiffest of the first and second round rusher prospects this year. 

 

I still like harris, but the more I watch him the less I like him. And given the unprovens we have at OLB and Suggs being gone any year now, I don't think a pure pass rusher is what we need, we need a 3 down starter who can rush. And I don't think Harris is ever gonna be more than a pass rush specialist who isn't even considered for run plays/zone drops, and with his big inconsistencies I don't think he can hit double digit sacks regularly. 

Nothing wrong with a disagreement though lol