First Round Reaches

[RaineV1]

Every year some players will go well before they probably should, likely do to their athletic ability. So, which guys do you think will be reached for in the first?

For me the main guy that stands out is Patrick Mahomes II. I get that the guy is a hell of an arm. but his mechanics need to be rebuilt from the ground up, and he throws a lot of passes off his back foot. He could be Brett Favre-esque in having bad mechanics but somehow still gets the job done, or he could easily be the next in a long list of QBs with strong arms that failed in the NFL (like the Ravens' own Kyle Boller). Even in the second round, you'd need a lot of faith in your QB coach to bring in Mahomes.

Edited March 28 by RaineV1

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

I'll bite. 
John Ross and Cam Robinson are high up on my "do not touch" lists. I don't like either, but thanks to an amazing combine from Ross he will probably go high. Likely to us which would piss me the hell off.

Cam Robinson I don't like either, and if we draft him I'll call for Ozzie's head. Ramcyzk is the superior prospect. 

[Halshayeji]

2 hours ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

I'll bite. 
John Ross and Cam Robinson are high up on my "do not touch" lists. I don't like either, but thanks to an amazing combine from Ross he will probably go high. Likely to us which would piss me the hell off.

Cam Robinson I don't like either, and if we draft him I'll call for Ozzie's head. Ramcyzk is the superior prospect. 

Heck il bite as well!

John Ross is the fastest player in the history of the combine. But just looking at his film I don't see that speed....

hes fast, real fast, but doesn't have that same game speed. Il also add that his route running isn't where it needs to be. He'd be a steal for someone in the second round but damn would it be disappointing to whoever drafts him in the top 15. He's not a big WR nor have I seen enough elusiveness that someone like a Brandon cooks had coming out of college.

theres a chance that Ross turns into the best receiver the NFL has ever seen but I don't think that chance is worth a top 10-15 pick. The risk is just too high! Heck the guy cramped up after 1 run in the combine lol

cam Robinson is probably the best RT in this class. I absolutely agree, you don't take a RT 16th overall! If you asked me a month ago I probably would have celebrated. But now his measurables make it hard to justify.

Edited March 28 by Halshayeji

[rossihunter2]

2 hours ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

I'll bite. 
John Ross and Cam Robinson are high up on my "do not touch" lists. I don't like either, but thanks to an amazing combine from Ross he will probably go high. Likely to us which would piss me the hell off.

Cam Robinson I don't like either, and if we draft him I'll call for Ozzie's head. Ramcyzk is the superior prospect. 

I agree entirely on Ross but disagree about cam - he doesn't fill a need if he plays guard but I really think he could be an excellent and dominant guard in the NFL

[JoeyFlex5]

I'll agree about Ross. I also think fournette is being over hyped. he's got a lot of mileage and has had nagging injuries and is showing an interest of playing a lot heavier than expected, recipe for disaster with a bruiser workhorse back. 

Another guy I don't think is a reach but I think he's being anointed very prematurely is Corey Davis, I think he's an excellent prospect but I don't think he's this sure fire slam dunk OROY candidate that so many make him out to be, the dude has faced almost no press coverage and hasn't shown the ability to beat it, and he has a weak attack-the-ball mentality that he needs to improve on. Still a clear first rounder but maybe overhyped 

[hn68wb4]

Haason Reddick is a guy flying up boards mainly due to his athleticism, some have him going mid first, I can't see that at all. I like Reddick as much as the next guy but he will be an off ball LB in the NFL, a position in which he has little to no experience with. I like the player, like the athleticism, like the motor and effort, but mid first is a reach for him.

Ross as already stated is going to rise more than he should based on that 4.22.

Melinfonwu is another getting a bit of hype recently - though I'm not really buying this one. Guy looks the part far more than he plays the part. Don't get me wrong, his tape isn't terrible, but it's far from first round good. He going to go in the 2nd, maybe crack the first based solely on being a freak athlete and a monster frame.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Ross is top of the list for me. 

I could see someone drafting Takk higher than he should be based on the athleticism. High upside but has a LONG way to go to develop into a consistent NFL pass rusher. 

If Taco goes top half of the first round that's a reach to me. If he goes before any of Harris, Tim Williams, Barnett it's a big reach. I could see someone taking him over Harris or Tim Williams and that'd be a mistake imo. 

I also really like Adoree Jackson as an immediate weapon as a returner who can develop into a nice starter at CB. But if he goes in the 1st I think it's a reach based on the athleticism and upside... ultimately depending on which other CB's are still on the board. 

I also think David Njoku is slightly overrated. Don't see him as the sure fire #2 TE worthy of a 1st like many do. Def think he's in a group of 3-4 TEs that have big upside and I'd take mid 2nd but Howard is the only one I'd take anywhere in the 1st. 

Mahomes is a good one though almost any of the QB's could be reaches depending on where they go but that's expected with QB's. If you need one, and you think there's a chance they could be a franchise guy even a cpl years down the line it's tough to call them a reach anywhere. Carr was a guy who would've been considered a reach as a top 5 pick but in hindsight no one would say that. Prob should've gone 1st overall. 

[Cillmatic]

Controversial one here; I'd say Mike Williams. Dude can't separate to save his life and his routes are below average even for a college player. 

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, hn68wb4 said:

Haason Reddick is a guy flying up boards mainly due to his athleticism, some have him going mid first, I can't see that at all. I like Reddick as much as the next guy but he will be an off ball LB in the NFL, a position in which he has little to no experience with. I like the player, like the athleticism, like the motor and effort, but mid first is a reach for him.

Ross as already stated is going to rise more than he should based on that 4.22.

Melinfonwu is another getting a bit of hype recently - though I'm not really buying this one. Guy looks the part far more than he plays the part. Don't get me wrong, his tape isn't terrible, but it's far from first round good. He going to go in the 2nd, maybe crack the first based solely on being a freak athlete and a monster frame.

Reddicks tape is legit though. He could be a seriously elite 43OLB and possibly play ILB in a 34 with an edge rush package at OLB. He's got seriously elite pursuit

[Ravenskid52752]

I say Jordan Willis DE from Kansas state heard the Saints Really like him so he could be that weird top 12 pick 

[RavensDieHard21]

5 hours ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

I'll bite. 
John Ross and Cam Robinson are high up on my "do not touch" lists. I don't like either, but thanks to an amazing combine from Ross he will probably go high. Likely to us which would piss me the hell off.

Cam Robinson I don't like either, and if we draft him I'll call for Ozzie's head. Ramcyzk is the superior prospect. 

Still don't get the hate for Ross 🤔Didn't the guy just have a 17 touchdown season? 

[RavensDieHard21]

Let's see, this year's reaches will likely be: 

Takk McKinley in the top 20. He has a great motor and is athletic, but he is so raw with pass rush technique that I wouldn't want him at 16. 

Taco Charlton anywhere from 5th to our pick would be a stretch. Frame is there and one good year of production is too, but I think Barnett, Williams, Harris, maybe even Watt as well, have better skill sets or at least consistency coming out.  

[PurpleHorseman]

I agree with Mike Williams. I do like Ross. He has the skills to be an elite route runner. He can get open and has some ball skills. 

I wouldn't call him a reach but Derek Barnett is being overhyped here. I know he is refined, plays hard and has pretty good bend. And because of his limitations elsewhere many here are projecting a fall to the ravens. And overlooking his limitations and thinking Terrell Suggs again. Some (here)have compared his flexibility to the greats like Miller and Ware. Even if he were comparable. That is the only category he compares to those guys. Because he isn't in their league. His effort and technique will be easily handled and locked up by most NFL tackles. That  is the one defensive player ravens need to steer clear of like an iceberg in round one!

I don't like Zay Jones as an NFL WR. His game will not transfer to beating NFL defensive backs. Corey Davis has some things to prove in the NFL as well. Although I do like his game. He may not be the all pro he is touted.

Cam Robinson needs to fine tune his game before being a good RT.  If he is coached up properly he could be a really good NFL Right Tackle. But he needs coaching on his technique big time. As he sits now even B edge rushers would beat him. But if he is coached how to use his hands. And run and drive his legs as opposed to reaching and lunging. And how to properly maul smaller opposition. He could be a really good Right Tackle. But he could have a learning curve.

[hn68wb4]

2 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Reddicks tape is legit though. He could be a seriously elite 43OLB and possibly play ILB in a 34 with an edge rush package at OLB. He's got seriously elite pursuit

He's got the tools to be successful, but he's been moved around year to year in college and now will have to learn another position moving into the pros. In the mid first he's a reach as a developmental player, we can like a player and you can say he could be elite, but he could also be a bust, playing with "coulds" won't lead to anything.

Edited March 28 by hn68wb4

[JoeyFlex5]

7 minutes ago, hn68wb4 said:

He's got the tools to be successful, but he's been moved around year to year in college and now will have to learn another position moving into the pros. In the mid first he's a reach as a developmental player, we can like a player and you can say he could be elite, but he could also be a bust, playing with "coulds" won't lead to anything.

That's totally true, but the same can be said about any athletic developmental player. Things like instinct and football iq have to be accounted for with guys like reddick and he appears to have quite a bit of it.

[hn68wb4]

2 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

That's totally true, but the same can be said about any athletic developmental player. Things like instinct and football iq have to be accounted for with guys like reddick and he appears to have quite a bit of it.

I would agree that that can be said about any developmental guy, I'm pretty much opposed to developmental players in the first as a general rule. If it's at the tail end of the first then it's ok I suppose, like with Perriman - though I wasn't the happiest person in the world with that pick either - but mid to early first I'm passing on purely developmental guys all day. 

Edited March 28 by hn68wb4

[PurpleHorseman]

9 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

That's totally true, but the same can be said about any athletic developmental player. Things like instinct and football iq have to be accounted for with guys like reddick and he appears to have quite a bit of it.

Maybe not favorite pick but I would be quite happy at 16 Reddick! He could be a Von Miller Peter Boulware weapon as a 4-3 olb. And if this guy played ilb the defense would scramble trying to account for his very unique blitzing and  cover  skills.

Edited March 28 by PurpleHorseman

[Edgar]

Most of the names being offered above are legitimate first round prospects. Some may be reached for within the first round but the majority are first rounders nonetheless.

Two I see above that I would agree should not be taken in the first are Melifonwu and certainly Jordan Willis.

 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

1 hour ago, PurpleHorseman said:

I agree with Mike Williams. I do like Ross. He has the skills to be an elite route runner. He can get open and has some ball skills. 

I wouldn't call him a reach but Derek Barnett is being overhyped here. I know he is refined, plays hard and has pretty good bend. And because of his limitations elsewhere many here are projecting a fall to the ravens. And overlooking his limitations and thinking Terrell Suggs again. Some (here)have compared his flexibility to the greats like Miller and Ware. Even if he were comparable. That is the only category he compares to those guys. Because he isn't in their league. His effort and technique will be easily handled and locked up by most NFL tackles. That  is the one defensive player ravens need to steer clear of like an iceberg in round one!

I don't like Zay Jones as an NFL WR. His game will not transfer to beating NFL defensive backs. Corey Davis has some things to prove in the NFL as well. Although I do like his game. He may not be the all pro he is touted.

Cam Robinson needs to fine tune his game before being a good RT.  If he is coached up properly he could be a really good NFL Right Tackle. But he needs coaching on his technique big time. As he sits now even B edge rushers would beat him. But if he is coached how to use his hands. And run and drive his legs as opposed to reaching and lunging. And how to properly maul smaller opposition. He could be a really good Right Tackle. But he could have a learning curve.

Barnett's done it against NFL level competition.

Got 3 sacks going up against Tunsil in 2015. Most still think he'll be a great LT in the league.

He abused Cam Robinson who is an NFL talent. 

Looked good and was productive against DJ Humphries. 

Will Holden, David Sharpe, Kendall Baker who are all NFL level talents.

 

And he's had some of his best, most dominant performances against the guys most viewed to be guaranteed NFL talents... and high end talents (depending on position with Cam) against Alabama and Ole Miss.

 

Granted it's no guarantee. And this is one I can't wait to bring back up once we see him play in the NFL... but theres a lot more to like than just his bend. Its the way he sets up his pass rushes and has a plan of attack, his polished moves/counter moves, the footwork, his finishing ability, and his combo of hand fighting, footwork, and bend that allow him to take the most direct path to the QB which allows him to get there just as quickly as some of the guys who are more athletic than him but have to take a more rounded route to the QB.

The only reason he gets the Suggs comp is bc hes a guy that on tape clearly has elite talent, has probably the most NFL ready skill set of any pass rusher ive seen in some time but at the very least in this draft class thats strong on pass rushers, has elite, steady production over 3 years against arguably the best competition available, and is a hardworking leader thats also a really good kid by all accounts who could only fall due to over-valuing raw athleticism.

 

But we will see.

[Edgar]

Marlon Humphrey is overvalued and I don't like him in the first.

[ravensnation5220]

Gareon Conley is a bit overhyped, he's very raw and he never uses his hands to jam. He will get eaten alive early in his career

[PurpleHorseman]

30 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Barnett's done it against NFL level competition.

Got 3 sacks going up against Tunsil in 2015. Most still think he'll be a great LT in the league.

He abused Cam Robinson who is an NFL talent. 

Looked good and was productive against DJ Humphries. 

Will Holden, David Sharpe, Kendall Baker who are all NFL level talents.

 

And he's had some of his best, most dominant performances against the guys most viewed to be guaranteed NFL talents... and high end talents (depending on position with Cam) against Alabama and Ole Miss.

 

Granted it's no guarantee. And this is one I can't wait to bring back up once we see him play in the NFL... but theres a lot more to like than just his bend. Its the way he sets up his pass rushes and has a plan of attack, his polished moves/counter moves, the footwork, his finishing ability, and his combo of hand fighting, footwork, and bend that allow him to take the most direct path to the QB which allows him to get there just as quickly as some of the guys who are more athletic than him but have to take a more rounded route to the QB.

The only reason he gets the Suggs comp is bc hes a guy that on tape clearly has elite talent, has probably the most NFL ready skill set of any pass rusher ive seen in some time but at the very least in this draft class thats strong on pass rushers, has elite, steady production over 3 years against arguably the best competition available, and is a hardworking leader thats also a really good kid by all accounts who could only fall due to over-valuing raw athleticism.

 

But we will see.

I know this. Not saying he is a bust. Not my favorite edge rusher by far. when tackles get to the NFL their technique gets far better. If Whitworth showed that technique in college he would have went to the jets at No.4 overall. Same could be said of our Wagner. Armstead would of been a top10 pick if he showed half that technique in college. King Dunlap would be a top60 pick. Tackles are not coached well in college. Stanley is a rare example. His technique and form is like natural honey. See Barnett vs Lael Collins.

However Collins is rare as well. One of my favorite ever draft participants. I would consider trading pick 16 for him. If not playing with Tyron he could be a  fine  tackle.

Edited March 28 by PurpleHorseman

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

5 minutes ago, PurpleHorseman said:

I know this. Not saying he is a bust. Not my favorite edge rusher by far. when tackles get to the NFL their technique gets far better. If Whitworth showed that technique in college he would have went to the jets at No.4 overall. Same could be said of our Wagner. Armstead would of been a top10 pick if he showed half that technique in college. King Dunlap would be a top60 pick. Tackles are not coached well in college. Stanley is a rare example. His technique and form is like natural honey. See Barnett vs Lael Collins.

However Collins is rare as well. One of my favorite ever draft participants. I would consider trading pick 16 for him. If not playing with Tyron he could be a  fine  tackle.

Pass rushers also dont typically get coached well in college. Most of the top talents are viewed that way because of their athletic traits, with coaches thinking they can teach the technique to pair with the athleticism.

Bosa had similar concerns and blew up the NFL bc of his technique, skill set and relentless motor. What he did transitioned right over to the NFL.

JJ Watt was thought not to have the explosive first step needed to be a great pass rusher.... but his hands work, ability to work inside and out, insane motor, etc... all made him a monster in the NFL.

And NFL program can make guys bigger, stronger, more explosive so long as they have the requisite athletic ability for the league. Sure guys can learn technique as well, but its a lot more difficult for an incredibly raw athlete to become an elite technician than it is for an elite technician to get a little bit quicker first step... or to add a little closing speed.

 

If Barnett's measurables were just a little bit better I guarantee you there'd be a very serious debate over who the 1st pick should be.

[PurpleHorseman]

4 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Pass rushers also dont typically get coached well in college. Most of the top talents are viewed that way because of their athletic traits, with coaches thinking they can teach the technique to pair with the athleticism.

Bosa had similar concerns and blew up the NFL bc of his technique, skill set and relentless motor. What he did transitioned right over to the NFL.

JJ Watt was thought not to have the explosive first step needed to be a great pass rusher.... but his hands work, ability to work inside and out, insane motor, etc... all made him a monster in the NFL.

And NFL program can make guys bigger, stronger, more explosive so long as they have the requisite athletic ability for the league. Sure guys can learn technique as well, but its a lot more difficult for an incredibly raw athlete to become an elite technician than it is for an elite technician to get a little bit quicker first step... or to add a little closing speed.

 

If Barnett's measurables were just a little bit better I guarantee you there'd be a very serious debate over who the 1st pick should be.

That could be true. Bosa is far twitchier than he was credited for. As was Watt. I'm not sure about No. 1 but if Barnett were more explosive he would be the best edge rusher in most drafts. This draft Garrett is such a freak. A once every 5 year athlete. We all have our guys we like or root for. I really like Carl Lawson and Taco Charlton at 16. Trading back and picking up Lawson would be really awesome scenario. Lawson 20's

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

7 minutes ago, PurpleHorseman said:

That could be true. Bosa is far twitchier than he was credited for. As was Watt. I'm not sure about No. 1 but if Barnett were more explosive he would be the best edge rusher in most drafts. This draft Garrett is such a freak. A once every 5 year athlete. We all have our guys we like or root for. I really like Carl Lawson and Taco Charlton at 16. Trading back and picking up Lawson would be really awesome scenario. Lawson 20's

I like Lawson later... but your liking taco at 16 makes 0 sense to me.

Raw and raw can be with only 1 year of production, and has tested to be a far lesser athlete than was originally thought. So in the same range if not worse athletically than Barnett, with no where near the technical ability or production.... yet you like him at 16?

To each his own.

[RavensDieHard21]

1 hour ago, Edgar said:

Marlon Humphrey is overvalued and I don't like him in the first.

I can see it, but where his strengths are still make him a first round pick likely falling no further than Seattle.  

He has length to match up against big receivers; he has solid muscle on his frame to not get bullied by receivers like Dez Bryant and Demariyus Thomas; he has elite deep speed for his size; super aggressive at the LOS; fights through blocks like a man on a mission. 

His only weaknesses are that he will likely do better in a zone based scheme, such as in Tampa 2 or Cover 3 heavy defenses like Seattle or Pitt. The main thing he needs to improve on is his anticipation in jump ball scenarios along with his technique of opening up too early. If he were to realize he has the skill set to dictate where the receiver goes by jamming them before opening up his hips, he would be much more successful in man coverage. 

[RavensDieHard21]

1 hour ago, ravensnation5220 said:

Gareon Conley is a bit overhyped, he's very raw and he never uses his hands to jam. He will get eaten alive early in his career

Eaten alive might be a little over the top🙄 lol he does need to improve in that area, but he does have solid off coverage ability and mirrors his receivers quite well without groping them like a lot of other CBs in this class do--e.g., Tre White, Tabor, and Tankersley. 

My only real concern outside of his jam is his lackadaisical approach to getting off blocks and making tackles. 

[RavensDieHard21]

Has no one still addressed the elephant in the room? I don't get the hate for Ross, yet everyone thinks he is a guy that isn't that good or only is being discussed because of the combine. 

Trust me, I want an edge rusher or a CB first, but if no QBs or Tackles go before us, a lot of talent will be plucked. In the boat of potential picks that are realistic between Humphrey, Robinson, Harris, Williams and Ross, I think that Ross's potential is on par with the rest if not even better. 

Obviously he has incredible speed, yet I see some saying he doesn't play quick though🙄 Watch the USC or Cal tape. He has straight line speed and explosive quickness whenever needing to gain separation. Most of the balls thrown to him were often underthrown because he was so quick down field. Don't get me started in open field where he is elusive like AB and Hilton with a nasty stutter step to shake defenders.

In regards to route running, he didn't have many opportunities to go over the middle or run comeback routes, but that is just college for you. If something isn't broke, don't fix it they say and CBs could not keep up with him. Despite that though, when he did comebacks and drag routes he is quick to break back to the ball. 

Hands were often on display too as many of his deep balls were contested or swatted at when he had to slow down to catch them and he rarely let that stop him from pulling them in. 

Edited March 28 by RavensDieHard21

[PurpleHorseman]

34 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I like Lawson later... but your liking taco at 16 makes 0 sense to me.

Raw and raw can be with only 1 year of production, and has tested to be a far lesser athlete than was originally thought. So in the same range if not worse athletically than Barnett, with no where near the technical ability or production.... yet you like him at 16?

To each his own.

I like taco actually if ravens go back to a predominately 4-3. I actually like Malik McDowell lol. I guess some fans don't put quite as much stock in college production. Umm I dunno I guess sometimes maybe. 

I thought I would get confronted on trading pick No. 16 for Collins and a draft pick

[PurpleHorseman]

5 minutes ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

Has no one still addressed the elephant in the room? I don't get the hate for Ross, yet everyone thinks he is a guy that isn't that good or only is being discussed because of the combine. 

Trust me, I want an edge rusher or a CB first, but if no QBs or Tackles go before us, a lot of talent will be plucked. In the boat of potential picks that are realistic between Humphrey, Robinson, Harris, Williams and Ross, I think that Ross's potential is on par with the rest of not better. 

Obviously he has incredible speed, yet I see some saying he doesn't play quick though🙄 Watch the USC or Cal tape. He has straight line speed and explosive quickness whenever needing to gain separation. Most of the balls thrown to him we're often underthrown because he was so quick. Don't get me started in open field where he is elusive like AB and Hilton with a nasty stutter step to shake defenders.

In regards to route running, he didn't have many opportunities to go over the middle or run comeback routes, but that is just college for you. If something isn't broke, don't fix it they say and CBs could not keep up with him. Despite that though, when he did comebacks and drag routes he is quick to break back to the ball. 

Hands we're often on display too as many of his deep balls were contested or swatted at when he had to slow down to catch them and he rarely let that stop him from pulling them in. 

I like Ross as well. He is going to be able to separate in the NFL at intermediate range. I would be excited about potential