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[News] Late For Work 3/20: Free-Agent Market Heating Up For Kamar Aiken

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3 minutes ago, Purple Dawg 96 said:

Yes, West runs with an attitude and KD is a beast as well! But if teams don't fear the pass our RBS will get hurt because they can't keep running with 7 to 8 players in the box on Defense with no fear of the pass like in the past the Offense gets too predictable and stale at times to me making them too predictable! Brady opened it up for Woodhead and and now his new RB and we need the same out of Joe and the play calling!

I think most of us here agree that the play calling must change!

KD showed flashes of greatness then broke all our hearts in the summer

West is almost impossible to root against. Effort is never gonna be his downfall.

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20 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1. The small sample size would be a combination of being unable to evaluate Dixon at all, meaning you can't say that it "hasn't worked out", and the lack of playing time of the other guys.

2. I inferred the latter, because they almost certainly wouldn't cut West if they signed Blount. I'm not even sure why people think they would. It would mean Taliaferro certainly doesn't make the team, which he likely won't anyway, and Allen likely wouldn't either. They're gonna carry 4 backs on the 53 man, and then it becomes a game of whether West or Blount would be active on gamedays once Dixon returns.

3. Us failing on 1st and goal doesn't change by bringing in Blount. Again, its a myth that he's this great short yardage back. If its 1st and goal from the 1, sure, he'll get in, along with any other back on our roster. If its 1st and goal from the 8, he's probably not getting in at all, along with any other back on our roster.

4. The reason why I don't care about TDs unless they're guaranteed is because if he's not scoring, what good is he doing? We've already acknowledged he's not a great back in terms of getting actual yardage, so if he's not scoring, what value is he bringing? He doesn't pass protect well, he doesn't play ST well, so what's he doing here?

5. I answered your question already genius. I answered it very clearly. I will quote it again in case you missed it..."I would take West over Blount for 2017".

1 and 2 I'm talking apple and your seeing orange so we'll keep it at that

3- so it's a myth that he's good at short yardage and it's a myth that he's a good runner. Then how did he get 18 TDs? You can't have it both ways

4- Who's we? Your the one that insists Blount can't carry the ball or score on short yardage. 

and no you didn't answer my question. You said who you'd prefer and then wrote a book to justify your opinion which I respect. but it's still not answering the question "genius". Quite frankly, I'd prefer west solely because I like the guy and he's more reliable off field. We're talking player on the field for the same price here.

Is West an upgrade over Blount for 2017? If you say yes then your out of your mind. You can always say no but..... Then bring up all the other factors that would tempt you chose west over Blount 

Im done here, you can have last word 😉

Edited by Halshayeji
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  28 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1. The small sample size would be a combination of being unable to evaluate Dixon at all, meaning you can't say that it "hasn't worked out", and the lack of playing time of the other guys.

2. I inferred the latter, because they almost certainly wouldn't cut West if they signed Blount. I'm not even sure why people think they would. It would mean Taliaferro certainly doesn't make the team, which he likely won't anyway, and Allen likely wouldn't either. They're gonna carry 4 backs on the 53 man, and then it becomes a game of whether West or Blount would be active on gamedays once Dixon returns.

3. Us failing on 1st and goal doesn't change by bringing in Blount. Again, its a myth that he's this great short yardage back. If its 1st and goal from the 1, sure, he'll get in, along with any other back on our roster. If its 1st and goal from the 8, he's probably not getting in at all, along with any other back on our roster.

4. The reason why I don't care about TDs unless they're guaranteed is because if he's not scoring, what good is he doing? We've already acknowledged he's not a great back in terms of getting actual yardage, so if he's not scoring, what value is he bringing? He doesn't pass protect well, he doesn't play ST well, so what's he doing here?

5. I answered your question already genius. I answered it very clearly. I will quote it again in case you missed it..."I would take West over Blount for 2017".

1 and 2 I'm talking apple and your seeing orange so we'll keep it at that

3- so it's a myth that he's good at short yardage and it's a myth that he's a good runner. Then how did he get 18 TDs? You can't have it both ways

4- Who's we? Your the one that insists Blount can't carry the ball or score on short yardage. 

and no you didn't answer my question. You said who you'd prefer and then wrote a book to justify your opinion which I respect. but it's still not answering the question "genius". Quite frankly, I'd prefer west solely because I like the guy and he's more reliable off field. We're talking player on the field for the same price here.

Is West an upgrade over Blount for 2017? If you say yes then your out of your mind. You can always say no but..... Then bring up all the other factors that would tempt you chose west over Blount 

Im done here, you can have last word 😉

Yes, West is an upgrade over Blount. All the reasons I listed are the reasons for that. I don't think I could have made that any more clear.

How did he get 18 TDs? Pretty simple... he plays in a spread offense and he fell forward a bunch of times. The Patriots had in unsustainable number of pass attempts fall just short of the goal line. When those catches turn into TDs (and they usually do), you see a dramatic decline in TDs.

We know that the YPC average had very little to do with the fact that he's "only" used as a short yardage runner, because he had 300 carries. Guys with 300 carries aren't short yardage backs, because you don't have 18-20 carries a game in short yardage situations. You could theoretically argue that his TDs are higher because of the volume increase (which he obviously won't get 300 carries here or anywhere else, including NE, again), but even then they would normalize in the 10-12 range, assuming the same output, which is unlikely.

Again, this is where going to the box score, looking at last years stats (ignoring everything before that) and saying "well gee he can do that again" doesn't work.

Especially when you take the exact same statistics and it hurts your argument, not helps it.

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  59 minutes ago, Halshayeji said:
  1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I would take West over Blount for 2017. I don't care about TD numbers from RBs, because I understand that they deviate on an annual basis greatly and are far too erratic to count on. So unless I'm getting double digit TDs guaranteed from Blount (which nobody can say with any remote certainty), I think West is a better RB, so I'd take him.

If the goal is to field the best team with the resources we have, then my money wouldn't be best spend on a RB.

And its obviously very presumptuous to think that West would be gone if we signed Blount, given that you'd still only effectively have 2 RBs on the roster.

All of this again is meaningless to me, because I think this article is click bait. I don't think we're even remotely interested in any FA RB right now, nor should we be. If we look to add a back, it will be in the draft.

I would also point out that going the 3rd/4th round route has mostly worked for us, because a lot of our better players are coming from the mid-round these days. If you're talking RBs exclusively, its far too small of a sample size and not good enough of an offensive line to notice.

Yes I'm talking about RB specifically of course! And how is 3 RBs in taken in the 3rd and 4th rounds in 3 consecutive years a small sample?

I agree, I don't think we are in the hunt for a RB but I'm just weighing the options of west (1.7mil zero guaranteed vs other options) sorry I didn't write the article. If it was so meaningless then why are you fighting for your life over it lol

and it's fair to assume we let go of west since we're assuming that were signing someone in the first place. Your also assuming that we keep both when no one inferred the latter.

and we do have more than 2 RBs. (Tallifaro and Allen can compete for #3 and 4 on the depth charts) your also assuming we don't draft any RB. Now look who's assuming.

and based on last year, Blounts chances of getting 10 TDs are higher than the latter because we failed drastically when it was 1st and goal. Wait you just said you don't care about TDs then followed your statement by saying unless someone guarantees 10 TDs... Which one is it?

and once again. I'm comparing the 1.7 mil tendered for west vs Blount if he was signed. No one is saying hey lets get yet another RB

and last but not least. Please answer the question. Is Blount for the price of west an upgrade for 2017 or a downgrade? 

1. The small sample size would be a combination of being unable to evaluate Dixon at all, meaning you can't say that it "hasn't worked out", and the lack of playing time of the other guys.

2. I inferred the latter, because they almost certainly wouldn't cut West if they signed Blount. I'm not even sure why people think they would. It would mean Taliaferro certainly doesn't make the team, which he likely won't anyway, and Allen likely wouldn't either. They're gonna carry 4 backs on the 53 man, and then it becomes a game of whether West or Blount would be active on gamedays once Dixon returns.

3. Us failing on 1st and goal doesn't change by bringing in Blount. Again, its a myth that he's this great short yardage back. If its 1st and goal from the 1, sure, he'll get in, along with any other back on our roster. If its 1st and goal from the 8, he's probably not getting in at all, along with any other back on our roster.

4. The reason why I don't care about TDs unless they're guaranteed is because if he's not scoring, what good is he doing? We've already acknowledged he's not a great back in terms of getting actual yardage, so if he's not scoring, what value is he bringing? He doesn't pass protect well, he doesn't play ST well, so what's he doing here?

5. I answered your question already genius. I answered it very clearly. I will quote it again in case you missed it..."I would take West over Blount for 2017".

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

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Personally i think West will have a great season, last year was his first year as a split starter, and like many of the young players that got a lot of PT, they all will be better having gone through a full season with a lot of snaps....Dixon when his 4 gamer is over, again will give us a very nice 1-2 punch IMO....

I am very skeptical about West, this coming year will be his 4 season He seems to have only 1 play at a time in him. He looks great and then the 2nd carry is nothing, too many times.
His carry average is 3.9 ypc with only 1678 tot yds in 3 years and he has been given plenty of reps. It really could go either way.

By the time game 5 comes this thing could be passe, so I would take Peterson for a bargain price or one of the remaining veteran FA. Since L Murray is gone i will defer to Oz, but i believe he was a RB that the Ravens could've really used.

the "1-2 punch" didn't work last year, I just do not see why it would be considered again. sorry

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8 hours ago, Halshayeji said:

no its not crazy to pursue A.Peterson or L.Blount. But it's crazy to hold t.west hostage until we figure it out. Teams are filling up their rosters and west deserves to make a few visits before he makes up his mind. Just my humble opinion.

If they truly go after Peterson or Blount then may be. We did this with two RFAs earlier. To demand or suggest that it needs to be done at this point in time is pathetic as it's based of an article speculating that we may go after Peterson/Blount. 

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If Ray Rice can't play because of what he did then I don't think AP should have a job either, beating a helpless child is an even more heinous offense imo.

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Ftr west rfa tag is 3x's what he just played for. He won't be done wrong by staying on the roster just because we get another rb. 

 

 

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Neither Boldin or Aiken fit in Marty's west coast scheme. I don't see us signing either one of them.

On another note. The Ravens have actually signed a free agent to a contract that is good for the Ravens. The Carr contract is perfect for a team that overpays for mediocre players. Team options each year for a 30 year old corner. Very smart this time around.

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If Ray Rice can't play because of what he did then I don't think AP should have a job either, beating a helpless child is an even more heinous offense imo.

Ray Rice isn't playing because most teams don't think he would be any good.

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19 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1. Correct, those are special players. I thought that was kind of the goal was it not... playmakers? Or are we just looking for another plodder who averages 4.0 YPC? I mean if you think that's good enough, so be it. I see a mountain full of 3rd and 4th round picks in this draft that I think can do that in their sleep, so why would I pay $2M for that?

2. LOL, I didn't choose one statistic. I chose many statistics. My other post listed about 5 different statistical reasons why he's a declining RB. That's not something you did. You picked the most recent year and assumed that because he did it last year, he would do it again this year. I don't think I have to explain the gigantic fallacy in that.

3. No, I'd rather have West. I want a guy who has the potential to break a run more than 5 yards, and can actually get a bit more than what is blocked for him.

Its sort of a pointless question though, because I'm not interested in signing a RB for a single season. That accomplishes very little for us.

Another reason to take West over Blount outside of the cost is that he is a head case and that WILL NOT FLY in Baltimore.

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40 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Ray Rice isn't playing because most teams don't think he would be any good.

I wish I could see your straight face when you make such a claim......

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  1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Ray Rice isn't playing because most teams don't think he would be any good.

I wish I could see your straight face when you make such a claim......

See 2013.

Name a single skill set that Ray Rice brings based on recent game film that a standard 3rd or 4th round RB doesn't have?

Literally any skill.

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25 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

See 2013.

Name a single skill set that Ray Rice brings based on recent game film that a standard 3rd or 4th round RB doesn't have?

Literally any skill.

Agreed. Rice was in decline mode and his last full season was statistically bad. Then you add time off on top of that. Yes he may be in good condition and still have muscle but so does Herschel walker and that doesn't mean he'd be productive. 

 

Peterson had 4.5ypc over 1200 yards and had over 2k the yr before that. 

People were already expressing doubt about rice before his suspension 

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22 hours ago, ellicottraven said:

Withdraw the tender offered to West so the poor chap can find a good landing place if you are considering adding RB either in the draft or getting AP. Its the right thing to do.

I'm in disagreement here, the Ravens have handled it correctly. The placed a 3rd round tender on West if any team truly wants him and feels he could be their starter offer him a contract the Ravens can't match and give up that 3rd round pick. 

Dixon is suspended for the first 4 games, Woodhead will have a certain role.  So even if the Ravens were to sign AP ( since he's been brought up a few times here ), West would still be valuable for the beginning of the season. 

Or at the very least keep him for trade bait  preseason injuries make some players more attractive in trades. 

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On 3/20/2017 at 9:31 AM, Halshayeji said:

no its not crazy to pursue A.Peterson or L.Blount. But it's crazy to hold t.west hostage until we figure it out. Teams are filling up their rosters and west deserves to make a few visits before he makes up his mind. Just my humble opinion.

Hold him hostage???  Any team that wants West can make him a contract offer which the Ravens would have an option to match.  Teams aren't willing to give up a 3rd round pick then they don't believe West would be their featured back. 

 

West actually got playing time, whereas a guy like Buck Allen has been a healthy scratch for a full year, his receiving skills would be put to use on plenty of teams. 

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21 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Exactly how I wanted you to respond...

I noticed you only referenced 2016 statistics... any particular reason for this? I mean with good players, you'd expect to see some consistency over an extended period of time.

So why did he only have 6 TDs in 2015? Or 5 in 2014? Or why did he have 18 TDs TOTAL over a three year period of 13-15?

Why has his YPC dropped every single season since 2013? Is that an indication of a good RB? How about his 3.9 YPC in 2016? Is that good or bad? What if I told you that ranked 30th in the NFL for RBs, and it was basically the same as Terrence West's?

What, did he all of the sudden "peak" as a RB at 30 years old?

Or how about this... why don't the Patriots want him back? The guy had 18 TDs last year and the Patriots, with plenty of cap space, don't appear to be interested at all?

Probably because they know what everybody else knows... he's a plodder. You hand the ball to him and he falls forward for 2-3 yards. And in fact, if you actually looked at his "short yardage" numbers, he's not nearly as good at converting as you think he is.

Anybody can be an effective short yardage back with a quality Oline. Justin Forsett was a very good short yardage back when he was here, and nobody even noticed. He was better than Taliaferro, who is much more of a "big bruiser".

 

I don't know why people are giving you negs when you're making excellent points. 

Well said 

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29 minutes ago, jdynamite said:

I'm in disagreement here, the Ravens have handled it correctly. The placed a 3rd round tender on West if any team truly wants him and feels he could be their starter offer him a contract the Ravens can't match and give up that 3rd round pick. 

Dixon is suspended for the first 4 games, Woodhead will have a certain role.  So even if the Ravens were to sign AP ( since he's been brought up a few times here ), West would still be valuable for the beginning of the season. 

Or at the very least keep him for trade bait  preseason injuries make some players more attractive in trades. 

Noted. Upon reflection I think you may be right.

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3 hours ago, Tiznut said:

Agreed. Rice was in decline mode and his last full season was statistically bad. Then you add time off on top of that. Yes he may be in good condition and still have muscle but so does Herschel walker and that doesn't mean he'd be productive. 

 

Peterson had 4.5ypc over 1200 yards and had over 2k the yr before that. 

People were already expressing doubt about rice before his suspension 

I get all of that and agree that rice was in decline. And now he's probably off the cliff. The case being made here is wether or not he was worth someone taking a chance on him. The answer to that is yes, as a player he declined but not as much as out of the NFL declined. Heck his backup got 2 more chances on minimum deals but he didn't even get 1 call for 3 years. 

Was Rice in decline, yes and so was the whole team that year. Was rice so bad that he couldnt even be a backup somewhere, no. It just turned out that teams weren't willing to risk a PR nightmare over a player that wasn't getting 2000 yards from scrimmage

rice was cut because of the domestic violence issue not his play. And then he stayed home for 3 years because of the same reason. Not his play. thats all were trying to say

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  3 hours ago, Tiznut said:

Agreed. Rice was in decline mode and his last full season was statistically bad. Then you add time off on top of that. Yes he may be in good condition and still have muscle but so does Herschel walker and that doesn't mean he'd be productive. 

 

Peterson had 4.5ypc over 1200 yards and had over 2k the yr before that. 

People were already expressing doubt about rice before his suspension 

I get all of that and agree that rice was in decline. And now he's probably off the cliff. The case being made here is wether or not he was worth someone taking a chance on him. The answer to that is yes, as a player he declined but not as much as out of the NFL declined. Heck his backup got 2 more chances on minimum deals but he didn't even get 1 call for 3 years. 

Was Rice in decline, yes and so was the whole team that year. Was rice so bad that he couldnt even be a backup somewhere, no. It just turned out that teams weren't willing to risk a PR nightmare over a player that wasn't getting 2000 yards from scrimmage

rice was cut because of the domestic violence issue not his play. And then he stayed home for 3 years because of the same reason. Not his play. thats all were trying to say

No actually what we're trying to say is that you don't need to sign somebody like him to be a backup.

Like thing about what you're saying. You're saying that he's a backup. That means, ideally, he's basically never going to play. We're not talking about bringing him in as a change of pace back or a guy you give the ball to a couple times a game.

We're talking about the kind of player that, ideally, never sees the field for you.

So why in the World would any team want that player and the PR that comes with that? What does ANY NFL franchise gain by signing Ray Rice? Now, or two years ago?

Its a simple risk/reward analysis. The risk is you get chastised by the media, your sponsors, your fans. The reward is that he never plays for you.

Yeah, sounds like a wonderful choice.

He's out of the league due to a combination of those things. If he was a quality player, he'd have played longer. See Greg Hardy.

You better be able to provide some sort of reward to a team in that case, and its almost impossible to argue he provided that.

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3 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

No actually what we're trying to say is that you don't need to sign somebody like him to be a backup.

Like thing about what you're saying. You're saying that he's a backup. That means, ideally, he's basically never going to play. We're not talking about bringing him in as a change of pace back or a guy you give the ball to a couple times a game.

We're talking about the kind of player that, ideally, never sees the field for you.

So why in the World would any team want that player and the PR that comes with that? What does ANY NFL franchise gain by signing Ray Rice? Now, or two years ago?

Its a simple risk/reward analysis. The risk is you get chastised by the media, your sponsors, your fans. The reward is that he never plays for you.

Yeah, sounds like a wonderful choice.

He's out of the league due to a combination of those things. If he was a quality player, he'd have played longer. See Greg Hardy.

You better be able to provide some sort of reward to a team in that case, and its almost impossible to argue he provided that.

No actually the guy was saying if Peterson gets a chance then so should rice. And I agree. Rice should have gotten another chance. I didn't say the Ravens should sign him. Neither did he

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  6 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

No actually what we're trying to say is that you don't need to sign somebody like him to be a backup.

Like thing about what you're saying. You're saying that he's a backup. That means, ideally, he's basically never going to play. We're not talking about bringing him in as a change of pace back or a guy you give the ball to a couple times a game.

We're talking about the kind of player that, ideally, never sees the field for you.

So why in the World would any team want that player and the PR that comes with that? What does ANY NFL franchise gain by signing Ray Rice? Now, or two years ago?

Its a simple risk/reward analysis. The risk is you get chastised by the media, your sponsors, your fans. The reward is that he never plays for you.

Yeah, sounds like a wonderful choice.

He's out of the league due to a combination of those things. If he was a quality player, he'd have played longer. See Greg Hardy.

You better be able to provide some sort of reward to a team in that case, and its almost impossible to argue he provided that.

No actually the guy was saying if Peterson gets a chance then so should rice. And I agree. Rice should have gotten another chance. I didn't say the Ravens should sign him. Neither did he

And why should Rice get a chance because AP did?

Do people think Rice was as good as AP in 2013 or something? You guys don't seriously think they are comparable do you?

Feels like an apples vs oranges comparison.

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18 hours ago, Tiznut said:

If they truly go after Peterson or Blount then may be. We did this with two RFAs earlier. To demand or suggest that it needs to be done at this point in time is pathetic as it's based of an article speculating that we may go after Peterson/Blount. 

No one is suggesting or demanding it needs to be done lol. I just said its not crazy to consider. Then someone spun words and gave me a lecture. 

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1 minute ago, rmcjacket23 said:

And why should Rice get a chance because AP did?

Do people think Rice was as good as AP in 2013 or something? You guys don't seriously think they are comparable do you?

Feels like an apples vs oranges comparison.

Ok as you wish. Ray rice was a horrible player and a person. Had he not layed a hand on his wife then the Ravens would have cut him regardless. And no other team in the NFL would have given him a tryout for 3 years so he should have just retired then. Better?

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3 minutes ago, Halshayeji said:

No one is suggesting or demanding it needs to be done lol. I just said its not crazy to consider. Then someone spun words and gave me a lecture. 

By saying he's being held hostage you're saying he should be released.  

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2 minutes ago, Halshayeji said:

Ok as you wish. Ray rice was a horrible player and a person. Had he not layed a hand on his wife then the Ravens would have cut him regardless. And no other team in the NFL would have given him a tryout for 3 years so he should have just retired then. Better?

He may not have been cut then but a performance like he had that last yr and he wouldn't be picked up by anyone. 

 

Now we are a few years removed from his bad yr and he's a few yrs removed from playing. No team is going to pick him up because of that and not because they're still holding the dv against him. 

 

My questions to him him would be. If you're adamant you can play why not go north and showcase your pass catching and run after catch ability?  Wouldn't that be the best way to show that you can still play?

 

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2 minutes ago, Tiznut said:

By saying he's being held hostage you're saying he should be released.  

Kind of. I'm saying that if our FO are really considering adding another RB then just let west go. I don't think anyone is willing to give up a third for him and I would feel horrible if we kept west till may then let him go and he signs for someone on a minimum deal. If their not considering adding a RB in FA and that probably is the case then all the power to them and west. I just really like west as a man and don't wish we hinder his progress in any way.

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4 minutes ago, Tiznut said:

He may not have been cut then but a performance like he had that last yr and he wouldn't be picked up by anyone. 

 

Now we are a few years removed from his bad yr and he's a few yrs removed from playing. No team is going to pick him up because of that and not because they're still holding the dv against him. 

 

My questions to him him would be. If you're adamant you can play why not go north and showcase your pass catching and run after catch ability?  Wouldn't that be the best way to show that you can still play?

 

And to that I commend you. If you really want to play then go north and prove it....

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  23 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

And why should Rice get a chance because AP did?

Do people think Rice was as good as AP in 2013 or something? You guys don't seriously think they are comparable do you?

Feels like an apples vs oranges comparison.

Ok as you wish. Ray rice was a horrible player and a person. Had he not layed a hand on his wife then the Ravens would have cut him regardless. And no other team in the NFL would have given him a tryout for 3 years so he should have just retired then. Better?

Cool. So basically this is just a bunch of Ray Rice fans wishing he could play again so they get some nostalgia from it. Very easy to say of course, when assuming none of the risk of anything.

Because, again, comparing his situation to AP's doesn't hold any weight, otherwise I wouldn't have gotten an actual legitimate reason why it does.

If you REALLY wanted to play this out...

Rice would have been on the team in 2014 because of his contract and the dead money associated with it. He almost certainly would have been cut after that season, and he would have spent a year or two bouncing around the league scrounging for mop up duty, with probably not much interest from most teams due to the tread on his tires and his age and rapidly declining skills.

And instead he hit his wife and expedited his retirement.

So he saved you the "pleasure" of watching him pull an Ed Reed at the end of his career.

Feel better now?

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