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ALSKAN RAVEN FAN

Extended Brandon Williams

203 posts in this topic

Just now, EdTheMythicalOne said:

I agree, training camp means nothing. He was running with first team because a lot of the actual starters weren't in camp and were also being given a lot of days off. And of course he was getting playing time in the preseason games. That's what it is for is to take a look at your rookies and recent signings. You don't need to run your #1's out there for four full pre season games because you generally know what you've got already.

He was relegated to back up duty as soon as the real season started and that's what counts. He didn't win anything other than the hype machine.

Yeah but Orr wasn't given days off either....

Correa is about to start his second season. But what could he really do? Orr was an all pro, Mosley was an all pro. He had to play at a pro bowl level to even touch the field. There was no reason to have him on the roster when you have McClellan who is a fill in at OLB and ILB and is one of the team's best special teams players.

I really think people are too hard on him... If he was beating out Orr at any point in time last year that is a good sign he has upside and can possibly surprise people.

It is insane how fast people are writing him off.

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4 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

The team would be replacing Williams with young unproven players as well.

To the extent that Pierce is young I suppose. Certainly not as unproven as say, Alex Lewis was starting at guard for example.

I like Brandon but feel we've seen his ceiling. I would be surprised if we see a better Brandon Williams two years from now and would prefer more of a financial commitment to O LINE continuity.

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11 minutes ago, Edgar said:

To the extent that Pierce is young I suppose. Certainly not as unproven as say, Alex Lewis was starting at guard for example.

I like Brandon but feel we've seen his ceiling. I would be surprised if we see a better Brandon Williams two years from now and would prefer more of a financial commitment to O LINE continuity.

Williams has been a consistent starter and has rarely been injured though. I know people are all GAGA over Pierce like I am I want him to succeed, but he is an undrafted player and has had limited action. Alex Lewis I know the team said they want him at LG but I wouldn't be surprised after this move if they shift him to RT because he is the mauler they keep talking about. It isn't hard to replace a LG. But Brandon Williams does a lot of things people don't realize like open up lanes for others to get sacks. He doesn't have the numbers for sacks but he does a lot of unnoticed things. 

I hate how much he got paid but I love him staying in Baltimore. Thats one less piece to replace on the defense that was rated #1 most the year last year.

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1 minute ago, trevorsteadman said:

Williams has been a consistent starter and has rarely been injured though. I know people are all GAGA over Pierce like I am I want him to succeed, but he is an undrafted player and has had limited action. Alex Lewis I know the team said they want him at LG but I wouldn't be surprised after this move if they shift him to RT because he is the mauler they keep talking about. It isn't hard to replace a LG. But Brandon Williams does a lot of things people don't realize like open up lanes for others to get sacks. He doesn't have the numbers for sacks but he does a lot of unnoticed things. 

I hate how much he got paid but I love him staying in Baltimore. Thats one less piece to replace on the defense that was rated #1 most the year last year.

The injury part is what has somewhat sold me on Williams.  Been healthy his whole time here and one of the most consistent players.  He deserves the money, no doubt, but as other have said, I would prefer to invest it elsewhere.

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21 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

Yeah but Orr wasn't given days off either....

Correa is about to start his second season. But what could he really do? Orr was an all pro, Mosley was an all pro. He had to play at a pro bowl level to even touch the field. There was no reason to have him on the roster when you have McClellan who is a fill in at OLB and ILB and is one of the team's best special teams players.

I really think people are too hard on him... If he was beating out Orr at any point in time last year that is a good sign he has upside and can possibly surprise people.

It is insane how fast people are writing him off.

Orr was a special teams player who was fighting for the starting job and won it clearly hands down because he was playing like a champ the whole time. Mosley was obviously going to start but the spot next to him was wide open. Orr won it and ran with it.

He was never beating Orr out at any point and time last season and I have no idea why you think this. Training Camp snaps do not mean a darn thing.

People are being hard on him because he was a second round pick that we took instead of taking some other useful players. All draft picks have some sort of upside and since he is a Raven I am hoping he does start showing us why the Ravens thought so highly of him. I am just not betting on it. People are also being hard on him because we drafted him to be an edge rusher and he didn't seem to be able to get the job done and lost out to Matt Judon and Z. Smith. Then he moves to MLB and he didn't look tremendous there, albeit it is a somewhat new position to him.

Nobody has written him off yet, but nobody is reinventing history with him either to believe he's a stud.

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34 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

I think you underestimate what Brandon Williams does.

Williams is one of the best if not the best defensive lineman against the run. He basically can stop the run by himself. He allows Suggs and others to be able to rush the quarterback more often. People look at his stats and think he should get paid off of his stats, when in reality he should get paid what he contributes to this team.

He does a lot of the dirty work on this team much like Jarrett Johnson so many years ago even though it is a different position. 

Wagner is in the bottom half of the league against the run and the front office said they want maulers and they want to emphasize running the ball again. That is the exact opposite of Wagner. The Ravens have replaced RT's in the draft relatively easily before I'm sure they can again. Also there are cheaper options later around training camp. 

I think he is overpaid as of now as well, but think in 2 years he will be on pace and you are keeping one of your defensive franchise pieces.

You're comparing them by pointing out Williams' strength and Wagner's weakness.  It works both ways:

Wagner is on of the best right tackles at pass blocking, meanwhile Williams is in the bottom half of the league at rushing the passer.  The front office has also said they want to get after the QB more..

Yes, the Ravens have replaced RTs relatively well but they've also done the same on the d-line.  Many thought the world was over when Ngata was traded.  Only difference to me is, we've seen Pierce play well in place of Williams.  We haven't seen anyone play well in place of Wagner (Yanda notwithstanding) and we'll be going with a relative unknown there.
 

For the record, I like Williams.  But imo, if you're going to overpay for one of the two, you pick the one that not only caters to the type of league we're in (passing), but the one that better helps your high priced QB investment

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49 minutes ago, Purple_City39 said:

In a passing league, a QB coming off a historic post season run on his way to superbowl winning MVP becoming the highest paid at his position is market value.

In a passing league, a DT/NT who can only stop the run coming off a season that ended with opposing teams running all over his defense becoming the highest paid at his position is overpaid.

And no, it's not exclusive because if we'd have given Wagner the same contract he received instead of paying Williams, I'd fully agree he earned market value.  Since he's a top end pass blocking RT in a passing league

Did the offense get the memo that its a passing league?

 

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8 minutes ago, Purple_City39 said:

You're comparing them by pointing out Williams' strength and Wagner's weakness.  It works both ways:

Wagner is on of the best right tackles at pass blocking, meanwhile Williams is in the bottom half of the league at rushing the passer.  The front office has also said they want to get after the QB more..

Yes, the Ravens have replaced RTs relatively well but they've also done the same on the d-line.  Many thought the world was over when Ngata was traded.  Only difference to me is, we've seen Pierce play well in place of Williams.  We haven't seen anyone play well in place of Wagner (Yanda notwithstanding) and we'll be going with a relative unknown there.
 

For the record, I like Williams.  But imo, if you're going to overpay for one of the two, you pick the one that not only caters to the type of league we're in (passing), but the one that better helps your high priced QB investment

Williams was 4th among NT in terms of sacks.

Do you even know what a NT job is?

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1 hour ago, Purple_City39 said:

In a passing league, a QB coming off a historic post season run on his way to superbowl winning MVP becoming the highest paid at his position is market value.

In a passing league, a DT/NT who can only stop the run coming off a season that ended with opposing teams running all over his defense becoming the highest paid at his position is overpaid.

And no, it's not exclusive because if we'd have given Wagner the same contract he received instead of paying Williams, I'd fully agree he earned market value.  Since he's a top end pass blocking RT in a passing league

11 million for a RT...No way. That would be much worse than Williams getting 11 million. 

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As I thought about both Williams and Wagner and which of the two should be retained, I couldn't help but think that Wagner might have the upper hand based on the fact that there seems to be few options for O line help in FA and by all accounts this is a relatively weak draft for that position. Clearly, the Ravens felt that Williams is the more "special" player and that they really wanted to make the long term commitment to him, rather than to Wagner. 

I'm certainly glad the Ravens got their guy, but I'm left wondering how we're going to address the O line, which was just so-so last year with Wagner. So far, the offense has lost SSS, Wagner, Juice and lost Dixon for the first 4 games and we've gained Woodhead. Decosta has stated this is a defensive draft, so addressing the offenses needs through the draft may be tough. I'm anxious to see how we make moves to improve that unit. 

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37 minutes ago, Purple_City39 said:

You're comparing them by pointing out Williams' strength and Wagner's weakness.  It works both ways:

Wagner is on of the best right tackles at pass blocking, meanwhile Williams is in the bottom half of the league at rushing the passer.  The front office has also said they want to get after the QB more..

Yes, the Ravens have replaced RTs relatively well but they've also done the same on the d-line.  Many thought the world was over when Ngata was traded.  Only difference to me is, we've seen Pierce play well  beside Williams.  We haven't seen anyone play well in place of Wagner (Yanda notwithstanding) and we'll be going with a relative unknown there.
 

For the record, I like Williams.  But imo, if you're going to overpay for one of the two, you pick the one that not only caters to the type of league we're in (passing), but the one that better helps your high priced QB investment

 

I fixed that for you.

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37 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

Orr was a special teams player who was fighting for the starting job and won it clearly hands down because he was playing like a champ the whole time. Mosley was obviously going to start but the spot next to him was wide open. Orr won it and ran with it.

He was never beating Orr out at any point and time last season and I have no idea why you think this. Training Camp snaps do not mean a darn thing.

People are being hard on him because he was a second round pick that we took instead of taking some other useful players. All draft picks have some sort of upside and since he is a Raven I am hoping he does start showing us why the Ravens thought so highly of him. I am just not betting on it. People are also being hard on him because we drafted him to be an edge rusher and he didn't seem to be able to get the job done and lost out to Matt Judon and Z. Smith. Then he moves to MLB and he didn't look tremendous there, albeit it is a somewhat new position to him.

Nobody has written him off yet, but nobody is reinventing history with him either to believe he's a stud.

How come people only cry about the correa pick? what if correa was injured last season and we didnt know about it? i dont see poeple crying about the Kaufusi pick. People need to chill out on correa and just give him a chance to learn. Judge him when he gets on the field and plays.  It was his rookie season learning a new position. Orr been playing ILB of course he was going to win the starting job. 

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29 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

Did the offense get the memo that its a passing league?

 

17 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

Williams was 4th among NT in terms of sacks.

Do you even know what a NT job is?

Clearly the offense didn't since they let a pass blocker go.

And yes, I know what a NT's job is and my exact point is that it's not needed at 11M a year.

One thing being hung up on, it seems, is the fact a NT's job isn't to get sacks.  And I fully agree, which is why I also wouldn't overpay one.  The Ravens have been running a 3-4 for a long time now.  We've seen NTs that actually somewhat contribute in the pass rush.  Constantly underrated Kelly Gregg could get after the QB from the nose position.  3 sacks in 06, 3.5 in 07, missed all of 08 after a microfiber surgery (IIRC) then came back in 09 for another 3 sacks.  This doesn't include pressures, just sacks.  He also ate up blockers in the run game and was a tackling machine.  That's the type of player I give 11M a year to play the nose.

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1 hour ago, Edgar said:

Wagner is viewed as a top flight tackle. Osemele a top flight guard,  etc.

Curious investment to me. We can replace guys on the offensive line with rookies and unproven players apparently but break the bank on Williams ?

 

I think K.O probably was viewed as a  top flight player more than Wagner . Both got overpaid for sure but I think Wagner in general just took advance of a  poor market at  the right tackle position along with this years draft not being great in that area either and cashed in. I think Wagner is good right tackle with the potentials to be better but I never viewed him as a elite right tackle.

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7 minutes ago, jazz1988 said:

 

I fixed that for you.

Not so sure about that.  Remember, Pierce was also in on passing downs while Williams was on the bench

Is anybody more comfortable with Wesly/Nembot/Draft pick taking over the RT spot than they are with Pierce taking over the nose?

14 minutes ago, Jonah DeVito said:

11 million for a RT...No way. That would be much worse than Williams getting 11 million. 

My apologies if this seemed confusing but when I said "giving him the contract he received", I mean the 9M a year Wagner got from Detroit.  Giving a very good pass blocking RT 9M a year is a better investment, to me anyway, than giving a run stopping d-lineman 11M a year

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3 minutes ago, Purple_City39 said:

My apologies if this seemed confusing but when I said "giving him the contract he received", I mean the 9M a year Wagner got from Detroit.  Giving a very good pass blocking RT 9M a year is a better investment, to me anyway, than giving a run stopping d-lineman 11M a year

Oh I gotcha, I just read it wrong. 

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1 hour ago, Edgar said:

Wagner is viewed as a top flight tackle. Osemele a top flight guard,  etc.

Curious investment to me. We can replace guys on the offensive line with rookies and unproven players apparently but break the bank on Williams ?

Could make the argument that Williams has been more consistent and durable in his time here. It's reasonable to say he, and his position/performance, have more impact on the overall defense than Osemele or Wagner did on the offense.

I'm just spit-balling, I was very sad to see KO go.

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21 minutes ago, Purple_City39 said:

Clearly the offense didn't since they let a pass blocker go.

And yes, I know what a NT's job is and my exact point is that it's not needed at 11M a year.

One thing being hung up on, it seems, is the fact a NT's job isn't to get sacks.  And I fully agree, which is why I also wouldn't overpay one.  The Ravens have been running a 3-4 for a long time now.  We've seen NTs that actually somewhat contribute in the pass rush.  Constantly underrated Kelly Gregg could get after the QB from the nose position.  3 sacks in 06, 3.5 in 07, missed all of 08 after a microfiber surgery (IIRC) then came back in 09 for another 3 sacks.  This doesn't include pressures, just sacks.  He also ate up blockers in the run game and was a tackling machine.  That's the type of player I give 11M a year to play the nose.

Gregg was underrated yeah but to be fair he had this fella called ngata beside him.

You dont seriously want to suggest that jernigan or guy are on ngata level orso?

Id give 11m to the key piece on the dline.
Back then it was ngata.
Now its williams.

PS: the FO let the RT go not the offense .....

Edited by Tru11
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8 hours ago, PurpleHorseman said:

Of all the players to finally pony up market value to. This is where? Of all the players on the market that could really help us establish a 21st century identity. This is where our funds are shelled out? I mean Terrell Pryor, Kevin Zeitler, Alshon Jeffrey,Osemele, Gilmore, Claiborne. Management decides to overpay a run stuffer that leaves the field on passing downs in a passing league. 

Joe plays his best football when he is protected. Where is this elite offensive line Harbaugh and Newsome talked about? We shelled out for a run stuffing box safety and a run stuffing one dimensional NT that leaves the field on passing downs.  Hoping some practice squadders step up is the elite offensive line senator Harbaugh spoke of? What happens every time he says we feel good about our receivers? Now he is going to be saying it about the offensive line to. Yanda is no spring chicken. He could decline. He is going into season 11. We let 2 lineman walk. Yanda could decline and that is not a plan for offensive success.  Do you like watching the patriots winning super bowls? 

jus more proof we are not heddin  in the right direction

1 hour ago, Edgar said:

Wagner is viewed as a top flight tackle. Osemele a top flight guard,  etc.

Curious investment to me. We can replace guys on the offensive line with rookies and unproven players apparently but break the bank on Williams ?

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

Gregg was underrated yeah but to be fair he had this fella called ngata beside him.

You dont seriously want to suggest that jernigan or guy are on ngata level orso?

Id give 11m to the key piece on the dline.
Back then it was ngata.
Now its williams.

PS: the FO let the RT go not the offense .....

Have to have an offense to let it go.

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Just now, Purple_City39 said:

Not so sure about that.  Remember, Pierce was also in on passing downs while Williams was on the bench

Is anybody more comfortable with Wesly/Nembot/Draft pick taking over the RT spot than they are with Pierce taking over the nose?

My apologies if this seemed confusing but when I said "giving him the contract he received", I mean the 9M a year Wagner got from Detroit.  Giving a very good pass blocking RT 9M a year is a better investment, to me anyway, than giving a run stopping d-lineman 11M a year

I have never seen Pierce make plays without Williams being on the field with him but I could be wrong .  I think if The Ravens felt like Pierce could replace what Brandon Williams brings to this team then Williams wouldn't have been re-signed and if The Ravens didn't think they had a good chance of replacing Wagner then they probably would have offered him more money . It's been proven before that you don't have to draft high or spend alot to get a good right tackle

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5 minutes ago, PurpleHorseman said:

Have to have an offense to let it go.

Season hasn't started yet and it's still pretty early in free agency. The draft isn't even here  either so The Ravens have plenty of time to address their offense and build around Joe Flacco. 

Edited by jazz1988
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1 hour ago, trevorsteadman said:

Williams has been a consistent starter and has rarely been injured though. I know people are all GAGA over Pierce like I am I want him to succeed, but he is an undrafted player and has had limited action. Alex Lewis I know the team said they want him at LG but I wouldn't be surprised after this move if they shift him to RT because he is the mauler they keep talking about. It isn't hard to replace a LG. But Brandon Williams does a lot of things people don't realize like open up lanes for others to get sacks. He doesn't have the numbers for sacks but he does a lot of unnoticed things. 

I hate how much he got paid but I love him staying in Baltimore. Thats one less piece to replace on the defense that was rated #1 most the year last year.

Williams will "help others "get sacks more readily if he could find a way to collapse the pocket consistently on pass plays......that would be worth some money 

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13 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

Gregg was underrated yeah but to be fair he had this fella called ngata beside him.

You dont seriously want to suggest that jernigan or guy are on ngata level orso?

Id give 11m to the key piece on the dline.
Back then it was ngata.
Now its williams.

PS: the FO let the RT go not the offense .....

Yeah so Gregg was pulling the same sack numbers from 02-05 (although 05 was the first year switch to the 3-4 IIRC, he still did it before Ngata).

No, Jernigan is not currently on Ngata's prime level, and neither is Williams.  Ngata didn't have to come off the field consistently on obvious passing downs.  11M for 60% of the snaps just doesn't seem like a solid investment to me.

And I know who let the RT walk.  Do we need to be this literal?

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1 minute ago, jazz1988 said:

Season hasn't started yet and it's still pretty early in free agency. The draft isn't even here  either so The Ravens have plenty of time to address their offense and build around Joe Flacco. 

When has it ever done that? Letting a very good RT walk and arguably the best guard in the NFL is building their offense and helping Joe Flacco? How? Paying a run stuffing One dimensional NT  that leaves the game on throwing downs in a throwing league, is building the offense?

i keep hearing this bs that Williams is an elite NT. How many teams use or even want a one dimensional NT? Even 3-4 teams like to front multi talented lineman across the board that are all stout and contribute to the rush. As opposed to a one dimensional NT and 2 ends. But prefer 3 stout penetrators if it can. So Williams is a top3 NT out of about 8 across NFL? Maybe the ravens will eventually join the rest of the league in the 21st century

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I don't know what to think about this move until I see the complete roster. I'm sure the FO have a plan and executing that. If paying Williams leave us without a decent oline then it's a bad move. The end product will tell us more.

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4 minutes ago, PurpleHorseman said:

When has it ever done that? Letting a very good RT walk and arguably the best guard in the NFL is building their offense and helping Joe Flacco? How? Paying a run stuffing One dimensional NT  that leaves the game on throwing downs in a throwing league, is building the offense?

i keep hearing this bs that Williams is an elite NT. How many teams use or even want a one dimensional NT? Even 3-4 teams like to front multi talented lineman across the board that are all stout and contribute to the rush. As opposed to a one dimensional NT and 2 ends. But prefer 3 stout penetrators if it can. So Williams is a top3 NT out of about 8 across NFL? Maybe the ravens will eventually join the rest of the league in the 21st century

You're not addressing the point that the league year started literally less than 24 hours ago. The Ravens still have a lot of time to make moves, draft players, and build the team. We've got 6 months before the first game, let's see what happens.

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13 minutes ago, berad said:

You're not addressing the point that the league year started literally less than 24 hours ago. The Ravens still have a lot of time to make moves, draft players, and build the team. We've got 6 months before the first game, let's see what happens.

Seen enough to expose their priorities and primitive thinking. Who is out there that can even come close to replacing what it lost on offense? An offense that sucked to begin with. The morons have ignored WRs and offense year in and year out. While telling us it feels good about our Receivers. 

On bright side this is the offseason that is going to do in the regime so we can get some bright innovative cutting edge coach and GM here. If Offense and Flacco struggle on route to 8 or more losses the regime is finished in Baltimore. Biscotti isn't stupid. He is giving them oppurtunity but management doesn't have him buffaloed like it thinks. Biscotti knows their speeches every year are a different dance to the same songs. Lose 3 lineman. Yanda going into season11. How can anybody think the offense is getting better?

Edited by PurpleHorseman
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1 minute ago, PurpleHorseman said:

Seen enough to expose their priorities and primitive thinking.

You could be right but we're like 20 hours in to 2017. 

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11 minutes ago, PurpleHorseman said:

When has it ever done that? Letting a very good RT walk and arguably the best guard in the NFL is building their offense and helping Joe Flacco? How? Paying a run stuffing One dimensional NT  that leaves the game on throwing downs in a throwing league, is building the offense?

i keep hearing this bs that Williams is an elite NT. How many teams use or even want a one dimensional NT? Even 3-4 teams like to front multi talented lineman across the board that are all stout and contribute to the rush. As opposed to a one dimensional NT and 2 ends. But prefer 3 stout penetrators if it can. So Williams is a top3 NT out of about 8 across NFL? Maybe the ravens will eventually join the rest of the league in the 21st century

Technically Marshal Yanda is the best guard in the league and The Ravens made sure to keep him around. It's not hard to get a  good right tackle at all . I'm sorry but I'm not ready to push the panic button. 

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