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rossihunter2

Comp picks

29 posts in this topic

Didn't know whether to put this in draft talk or Ravens talk but went with here because it's affected by free agency and would be next year's draft anyway...

Essentially I'm wondering what the chances are that we get those comp picks for Wagner/Williams/juice etc. given that we have reportedly already brought in two true free agents in Jefferson and woodhead?

Now that mallet has re-signed that leaves us with Williams, Aiken and guy who could maybe get qualifying offers. I'm just wondering what everyone thinks on the matter - whether it's possible, whether it's likely, whether it matters...

Edited by rossihunter2
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I'm thinking we get 2 4ths for bwill and Wagner and a 5th for juice. I think with the salary cap going up and the kinda money that's rumored to get thrown around that bwill and Wagner may not make enough for the 3rd rounders.

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9 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I'm thinking we get 2 4ths for bwill and Wagner and a 5th for juice. I think with the salary cap going up and the kinda money that's rumored to get thrown around that bwill and Wagner may not make enough for the 3rd rounders.

Will we even get them though is my real question given that we've already signed two FAs?

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14 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

Will we even get them though is my real question given that we've already signed two FAs?

Not all of them but we've lost more FAs through bigger numbers than we've gained

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1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Not all of them but we've lost more FAs through bigger numbers than we've gained

Like who? 

FA LOST: 

Kyle Juszczyk

Rick Wagner

FA GAINED:

Tony Jefferson

Danny Woodhead

 

That is an equal number from what I see. Granted we have Guy, Williams, Aiken left who could offset the additions but we brought back Mallett so there's no offset there. 

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3 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

Like who? 

FA LOST: 

Kyle Juszczyk

Rick Wagner

FA GAINED:

Tony Jefferson

Danny Woodhead

 

That is an equal number from what I see. Granted we have Guy, Williams, Aiken left who could offset the additions but we brought back Mallett so there's no offset there. 

i think we lost vlad ducasse as well

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Just now, rossihunter2 said:

i think we lost vlad ducasse as well

Oh yeah! Thanks and thank God we did that was a real shocker for me. You can't blame me if I forgot about him lol. 

I suppose we can hope someone signs Levine. 

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1 minute ago, GrimCoconut said:

Oh yeah! Thanks and thank God we did that was a real shocker for me. You can't blame me if I forgot about him lol. 

I suppose we can hope someone signs Levine. 

the way ive been thinking, if guy, williams, aiken, ducasse, wagner, juice all leave and we dont sign anyone else we should get at least 3 comp picks depending on their contracts...

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1 hour ago, GrimCoconut said:

Like who? 

FA LOST: 

Kyle Juszczyk

Rick Wagner

FA GAINED:

Tony Jefferson

Danny Woodhead

 

That is an equal number from what I see. Granted we have Guy, Williams, Aiken left who could offset the additions but we brought back Mallett so there's no offset there. 

The thing is, there are qualifiers if I'm not mistaken.  Aiken is as good as gone, and the contract Woodhead gets (liekly very cheap, will be offset by him.  They try to compare value.  Bringing back Mallett won't factor in.  Re-signing your own doesn't impact comp picks

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1 hour ago, GrimCoconut said:

Like who? 

FA LOST: 

Kyle Juszczyk

Rick Wagner

FA GAINED:

Tony Jefferson

Danny Woodhead

 

That is an equal number from what I see. Granted we have Guy, Williams, Aiken left who could offset the additions but we brought back Mallett so there's no offset there. 

Dicasse and also most likely williams, and if we lose guy and Aiken like you mentioned that's 6 losses to 3 gained, even if we make 2 more signings we're still at a negative. I think we could end up even though because I think we resign guy, so with 2 signings it's a wash. 

 

I think we we end up with one comp, I can't see Ozzie turning down the prospect of a 4th for some petty signing, or possibly even a 3rd

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Just now, JoeyFlex5 said:

Dicasse and also most likely williams, and if we lose guy and Aiken like you mentioned that's 6 losses to 3 gained, even if we make 2 more signings we're still at a negative. I think we could end up even though because I think we resign guy, so with 2 signings it's a wash. 

 

I think we we end up with one comp, I can't see Ozzie turning down the prospect of a 4th for some petty signing, or possibly even a 3rd

i can see us ending up with 2... aiken, williams, wagner, juice, ducasse - even if we keep guy then that's 5 leaving - and i dont think we sign any other free agents - i imagine its cap casualties only beyond woodhead and jefferson... but we could still sign one more and still get wagner and williams's comps

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Lost:

Wagner

Juszczyk

Ducasse

Signed:

Jefferson

Woodhead

So, they are +1 for Comp picks now, pending Williams, Aiken, Guy, maybe Levine, maybe Powers.  Still a long way to go before this is fleshed out.

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If Ducasse qualifies which I doubt I mean a mediocre backup guard probably isn't going to make the cut top 32 FAs count in the comps. Still early but my guess is Jefferson cancels Wagner Woodhead probably isn't big money so maybe a 5th for Juice but with FA still going things will change. Usually overthecap.com shows a graphic about the comp picks after the first week of FA.

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1 hour ago, Wildabeast88 said:

If Ducasse qualifies which I doubt I mean a mediocre backup guard probably isn't going to make the cut top 32 FAs count in the comps. Still early but my guess is Jefferson cancels Wagner Woodhead probably isn't big money so maybe a 5th for Juice but with FA still going things will change. Usually overthecap.com shows a graphic about the comp picks after the first week of FA.

It's the top 32 who get you the comp picks but every FA pickup counts in the formula I think - so woodhead would still take a comp pick away but ducasse would cancel it out, likewise juice and Jefferson which at the moment means we have 1 comp pick which we would lose if we sign Claiborne- or at least I think that's how it works

oz said yesterday in the presser though that they think they have a handle on how the comp pick formula works now so I guess we'll see

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Its funny how the NFL has never come out ans said "Alright this is how it works"

Last year for instance we lost Schaub,Upshaw and Osemele and gained Weddle and Watson which as we all know in the end netted us a 3rd for Osemele. As of now we've lost Ducasse,Wagener and Juice and have netted Woodhead and Jefferson probally leaving us with Wagner as a 3rd or 4th comp. I know a lot is dependent on contracts but here confusion sets in with me at so to keep it simple lets also say we lose Guy as our only other FA lost and don't sign another UFA. Lets also just say Guy gets a 2 yr 5 mil deal. Okay so would Jefferson cancel Guy(lower contract) or Juice. Regardless we would be 4 lost to 2 gained therefore do we get a 4(Wagner) and a 5(Juice) or a 4(Wagner) and a 6(Guy). What needs to be really known is do they match up contracts or take your highest 2 to give you comps.

Now just to get back to 2016 for a minute. We know Osemele blew away everybody elses contract but both Weddle's and Watson's contracts were well above Upshaw and Schaub's but yet these were the ones cancelled.

 

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1 hour ago, Willbacker said:

Its funny how the NFL has never come out ans said "Alright this is how it works"

Last year for instance we lost Schaub,Upshaw and Osemele and gained Weddle and Watson which as we all know in the end netted us a 3rd for Osemele. As of now we've lost Ducasse,Wagener and Juice and have netted Woodhead and Jefferson probally leaving us with Wagner as a 3rd or 4th comp. I know a lot is dependent on contracts but here confusion sets in with me at so to keep it simple lets also say we lose Guy as our only other FA lost and don't sign another UFA. Lets also just say Guy gets a 2 yr 5 mil deal. Okay so would Jefferson cancel Guy(lower contract) or Juice. Regardless we would be 4 lost to 2 gained therefore do we get a 4(Wagner) and a 5(Juice) or a 4(Wagner) and a 6(Guy). What needs to be really known is do they match up contracts or take your highest 2 to give you comps.

Now just to get back to 2016 for a minute. We know Osemele blew away everybody elses contract but both Weddle's and Watson's contracts were well above Upshaw and Schaub's but yet these were the ones cancelled.

 

given the way it worked last year id suggest theyd give the highest 2 but i couldnt tell you for sure - i think its just a pure numbers game in terms of numbers going each way and then whether the top guys if there isnt a cancelling out are in the top 32...

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Right now it all depends on whether Wagner is a 3rd or 4th. He's looking to be pretty much right on that line right now.

If he's a 3rd, then by rule, Jefferson (a 4th) cancels the lower Comp (Juszczyk, a 5th).  That would give us the 3rd for Wagner. 

If Wagner is a 4th though, then he and Jefferson cancel each other because they are the same round.

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7 minutes ago, B-more Ravor said:

Right now it all depends on whether Wagner is a 3rd or 4th. He's looking to be pretty much right on that line right now.

If he's a 3rd, then by rule, Jefferson (a 4th) cancels the lower Comp (Juszczyk, a 5th).  That would give us the 3rd for Wagner. 

If Wagner is a 4th though, then he and Jefferson cancel each other because they are the same round.

Okay lets say Guy is the only other FA we lose that ends up in the top 32 and we don't sign any other UFAs and it ends up Wagner is worth a 3rd,Juice a 5th and Guy a 6th and Jefferson ends up as a 4th would it end up with us getting a 3rd and 6th with Jefferson and Juice cancelling? To me this is what I'm getting from your answer and it makes sense and if Wagner is a 4th then we'd get the 5th and 6th I believe.

Also if you happen to know is contracts the main determination in comp picks and if it is is it the total money or the money per year? Thanks.

 

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Yes, yearly average of deal initially sets the round. Then it can go up or down depending on playtime (or lack thereof) and post season honors.

Most FA signings of at least $1-1.4M yearly average "qualify".  Then canceling occurs amongst those qualifying players (regardless of whether in top 32 or not).  Then the top 32 of the remaining earn comp picks.

As far as your example goes, it would also include Woodhead and perhaps Ducasse (depending on his deal), but yes, the results you reached would be accurate for the example.  Basically, when it comes to Jefferson, a signing cancels the same round or the next closest from a lower round.  That's why if Wagner is a 3rd, they'd get the 3rd.

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8 minutes ago, Willbacker said:

Okay lets say Guy is the only other FA we lose that ends up in the top 32 and we don't sign any other UFAs and it ends up Wagner is worth a 3rd,Juice a 5th and Guy a 6th and Jefferson ends up as a 4th would it end up with us getting a 3rd and 6th with Jefferson and Juice cancelling? To me this is what I'm getting from your answer and it makes sense and if Wagner is a 4th then we'd get the 5th and 6th I believe.

Also if you happen to know is contracts the main determination in comp picks and if it is is it the total money or the money per year? Thanks.

 

i dont think the players you lose have to be on the top 32 - they just have to have a "qualifying contract" whatever that is

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We still potentially have Guy, Aiken and Powers to sign elsewhere.

 

I guess it would be optimistic to expect Elam and Chris Lewis Harris to bring us any benefit by signing anywhere else. Lewis Harris might be the sort of guy we sign to close to the vet minimum to play on ST. And Elam, well.....

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12 minutes ago, ant2ney said:

We still potentially have Guy, Aiken and Powers to sign elsewhere.

 

I guess it would be optimistic to expect Elam and Chris Lewis Harris to bring us any benefit by signing anywhere else. Lewis Harris might be the sort of guy we sign to close to the vet minimum to play on ST. And Elam, well.....

Elam?? What kind of comps can we expect from Finish Line? Free shoe strings?

Although, if found guilty, we may be able to get some boss license plates.

Edited by Rav'n Maniac
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2 hours ago, B-more Ravor said:

Yes, yearly average of deal initially sets the round. Then it can go up or down depending on playtime (or lack thereof) and post season honors.

Most FA signings of at least $1-1.4M yearly average "qualify".  Then canceling occurs amongst those qualifying players (regardless of whether in top 32 or not).  Then the top 32 of the remaining earn comp picks.

As far as your example goes, it would also include Woodhead and perhaps Ducasse (depending on his deal), but yes, the results you reached would be accurate for the example.  Basically, when it comes to Jefferson, a signing cancels the same round or the next closest from a lower round.  That's why if Wagner is a 3rd, they'd get the 3rd.

Thanks for the input. Really helped me understand a lot better. The cancelling process I'm gonna have to assume thats on a team by team basis whereas each individual player actually effects 2 teams (ex Jefferson- Ravens/Cards) and then it shakes out to whatever the top 32 turns out for all teams combined according to players gained and lost. Man I tell ya what a complicated process. I bolded the one section cuz I remember us not getting a comp for Tyrod where I thought we would cuz of the playing time so imo his low contract was weighed way over his playing time. Oh well.

@rossihunter2 Thanks for the replies. I think we both in the same boat trying to figger this process out lol.

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There is also the comp picks for any of our RFA's that got tendered and might be signed elsewhere if the Ravens do not match the offers. That list includes:

RB Terrence West (3rd round)

OL: James Hurst (4th round)

S: Marqueston Huff (4th round)

WR: Michael Campanaro (7th round)

I think they also tendered DB: Jumal Rolle

Edited by EdTheMythicalOne
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20 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

There is also the comp picks for any of our RFA's that got tendered and might be signed elsewhere if the Ravens do not match the offers. That list includes:

RB Terrence West (3rd round)

OL: James Hurst (4th round)

S: Marqueston Huff (4th round)

WR: Michael Campanaro (7th round)

I think they also tendered DB: Jumal Rolle

Actually whoever signs those guys we get their picks. They're not comps.

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Here's a little something if you feel like having your brain melted in trying to determine comp picks.

Here's what I boil this down to:

1) Your team has to lose more qualified compensation pick players than they gain. So far we've only lost Wagner and Juice and our gains have been Tony Jefferson and Danny Woodhead. Wagner certainly qualifies after his monster contract and should be our highest rated player which would net us a third round compensatory pick. Thing is, he is sort of off set by Tony Jefferson. Considering the process takes into account the new contracts the player signed and post season awards, Juice might qualify since he's now the top paid at his position and also was a pro bowl player. Danny Woodhead on the other hand may not qualify due to back to back injury prone seasons.

2) The level of the pick you get depends on the amount the player gets paid on their new contract as for Average per year. It also takes into account any awards the player earned. So it sort of depends on what the rest of the other qualifying players get, but I am not clear as to whether that is every player, or just players at the same position.

We've still got some time to let things all play out depending on players that get signed and for how much, and then how many more qualifying players the Ravens sign.

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5 hours ago, Willbacker said:

 I bolded the one section cuz I remember us not getting a comp for Tyrod where I thought we would cuz of the playing time so imo his low contract was weighed way over his playing time. Oh well.

 

Yes, that was a situation where the yearly average of that initial contract he signed in Buf was below the top 32 comp picks and his playing time wasn't enough to raise it high enough to get into the top 32.  A few years before, it probably would have, but many more teams are now paying more attention to Comp picks which means the top 32 line is much higher than in the past.  IIRC, this year, there weren't any (or very few) 7th round Comps issued because the top 32 line was so much higher.

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7 hours ago, Willbacker said:

Actually whoever signs those guys we get their picks. They're not comps.

In this context no, but the picks you get in return are compensation for losing the player you tendered.

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