[News] Ravens Give 'Very Competitive' Offer To Rick Wagner

[law215]

Why do the Ravens wait until the contract is up to offer a very good competitive contract? Why do all our players rather hit free agency?

It just trips me out how teams like the Steelers can keep Brown, Bell, and Big Ben and we struggle to keep guys that are not even pro bowlers.

[OzzieBisciotti]

Steelers can keep Brown, but we can't keep anyone because of bad salary cap management, money tied up to old vets. Other teams sign their players early, before their contract comes up, and we wait until the end- Ozzie needs to go and he can take DaCosta with him. Supposedly KO got a competitive offer, and it left a bad taste in his mouth and he left for Oakland and made the pro bowl and also made that o-line better. Oz also tried to low ball justin tucker, the only notable player we've been able to keep in the past couple of years, and he's a kicker, and Tucker threatened the Ravens and said he'd wouldn't come back to the Ravens if he was franchised- believe me, we would've franchised him to keep him around cheaper for one year until that threatening statement. To make a long story short, we've just had bad drafts, bad cap management, and bad fa signings of senior citizens and we've tried to low ball our good players to the point where they are offended and want to leave..

[OzzieBisciotti]

  8 hours ago, bioLarzen said:

"RAVENS GIVE 'VERY COMPETITIVE' OFFER TO RICK WAGNER"

Doesn't mean a thing. That was the exact same phrase ("a very competitive offer") they used about Osemele last season - and we all know how that worked out...

Yea, making him a top 5 paid G in the league, how disrespectful. 

usmccharles = eric dacosta

[RavensDieHard21]

9 hours ago, ellicottraven said:

The only reason I say this is there are rumors floating around that both Williams and Wagner either expect north of 10M/yr or pundits believe that is their market. Now that number is absolutely ridiculous. We can't make every player the top of his position when they are not the top player of that position. We've already been bitten by that once and fairly severely too.

I agree fully but these numbers have literally come out of thin air. If we wouldn't pay KO more than 9. I highly doubt we would even entertain the idea. I think Wagner gets greedy and Williams takes a minor discount and he stays.

[Ravenous_Ravens]

Why do the Ravens wait until the contract is up to offer a very good competitive contract? Why do all our players rather hit free agency?

It just trips me out how teams like the Steelers can keep Brown, Bell, and Big Ben and we struggle to keep guys that are not even pro bowlers.

Well it is a straight forward process. If you know you have a foundational player about to hit FA you pull out all the stops to retain them. If they are a solid player but not a foundational type player, you try to negotiate and they try to negotiate. Testing the market only makes sense to at least get a clear idea of what actual value is going to be.

With the salary cap era, teams cannot simply go out and offer huge contracts to every FA. This is also why comp picks exist. They serve to offset the inevitability of parting ways with some of the "homegrown" talent. Basically a small reward for bolstering the talent in the league and to help cover the loss; if you draft well.

It just trips me out how teams like the Steelers can keep Brown, Bell, and Big Ben and we struggle to keep guys that are not even pro bowlers.

It is much harder to replace Pro Bowl caliber talent. Not sure why you would be upset with not being foolish. Steelers fan trolling?!

[usmccharles]

3 hours ago, OzzieBisciotti said:

usmccharles = eric dacosta

Awe, still struggling with facts.  Thats cute. 

[huntrgathrr]

The Ravens better wake up and smell the roses....we need to keep Wagner and Brandon Williams no matter what the cost. These 2 cannot be replaced either through the draft or free agency. Cut Wallace, Suggs and Dumervil if necessary..all are overpriced relative to their current ability to contribute.These 2 give our team mental and physical toughness on both sides of the ball. Williams is worth 2 players as he frees up his line mates (Jernigan and Pierce) to excel. Wagner completes the trifecta on the offensive line with Yanda and Stanley. Without these two the Ravens won't compete. Maybe Flacco can take a page from Brady's book and restructure his contract to allow the Ravens the cap space to keep the players they need to be a winning team. If he doesn't I have no problem cutting him and going with Mallett.
In addition to keeping these 2 guys the Ravens have a couple important issues that need to be addressed. First is that Jimmy Smith can't be counted on to suit up. With Smith the raven secondary is really good. He makes every other player much better. Without him the secondary was fkn helpless. Young is a good corner that will only get better and Weddle was a good safety. Consider getting Revis to play safety alongside Weddle. Trade up to get the top 2 corners in the draft or get one in free agency.
We lost 4 games due to a lack of talent in the secondary...raiders, giants, steelers and the redskins.
Secondly, we need to get the expected performance from several players....Maxx Williams, Corriea and Kafusi.
The offense is fine. Perriman and Waller will step up and be good #1 and #2 recievers. Along with Moore and Aiken this is all Joe should need I love West and Dixon. Pitta was really good last year and should be even better next year. Boyle should be good and Juice is really coming into his own. His TD run on Christmas Day was highlight reel stuff...knocking Pittsburgh's hardest hitter on his butt in a head on collision and getting into the end zone on all fours.He should be resigned at all costs. He proved his toughness and determination beyond all doubt. Despite all the criticism, Flacco is a great QB. His performance on Christmas Day was exceptional and should have been enough to win the game and the division title. He can't carry the team by himself (like Big Ben) but can take a solid team a long way in the playoffs. Last year the Raven's lack of talent in the secondary cost them a very good season.
But the guys on the hot seat should Harbaugh and Pees. John made some bonehead decisions that cost us at least 2 games. Pees called some great games but screwed them up in the 4th quarter by abandoning his game plan and going to "prevent" which only prevented us from winning. On Christmas day, watching Brown and Bell be allowed to run free from the line of scrimmage after we had a 20-10 lead made me sick. We shut them down for 3 quarters.....then called off the dogs and gave them life. So stupid. Pees and a lack of individual talent in the secondary allowed them to make a MIRACLE comeback. Never should have happened.
I have really loved Harbaugh for the since he took over years but in the last 2 years he has come up very short. Until then he exemplified great coaching by always getting the most out of his team. The last 2 years, especially last year, he got the very least out of his team. IMO, the worst they could have done was 8-8. That was a 12-4 team all day long and should have been in NE playing them for the AFC Championship. The fact that they humbled the Steelers (21-0 with 8 min left) in the first game at Balt and were winning in Pittsburgh 28-24 with 1:15 left in the game and Pitts at their own 8 yard line is enough evidence to suggest they were a superior team to the Steelers. To be sitting at home for the playoffs was a GD crime.
IMO Steve Biscoitti knows this as well. Losing games to inferior teams due to bonehead coaching decisions late in the game should no longer be tolerated. Credit from prior good performance has been used up. Exceeding expectations and creating a team that that is greater than the sum of the parts is a must. Missing the playoffs three years in a row will be convincing evidence that we need new leadership. I'd rather finish in last place with a terrible team than watch a really good team under perform and fail to achieve their potential.

[sizzlingdoom]

  12 hours ago, bioLarzen said:

"RAVENS GIVE 'VERY COMPETITIVE' OFFER TO RICK WAGNER"

Doesn't mean a thing. That was the exact same phrase ("a very competitive offer") they used about Osemele last season - and we all know how that worked out...

"Very competitive offer" is the Ravens' way of saying "we're probably going to lose yet another young, talented player because we've got all our money invested in aging/injured players and our overrated QB."

Exactly. It's incredibly sad.

[usmccharles]

30 minutes ago, huntrgathrr said:

The Ravens better wake up and smell the roses....we need to keep Wagner and Brandon Williams no matter what the cost. These 2 cannot be replaced either through the draft or free agency. Cut Wallace, Suggs and Dumervil if necessary..all are overpriced relative to their current ability to contribute.These 2 give our team mental and physical toughness on both sides of the ball. Williams is worth 2 players as he frees up his line mates (Jernigan and Pierce) to excel. Wagner completes the trifecta on the offensive line with Yanda and Stanley. Without these two the Ravens won't compete. Maybe Flacco can take a page from Brady's book and restructure his contract to allow the Ravens the cap space to keep the players they need to be a winning team. If he doesn't I have no problem cutting him and going with Mallett.
In addition to keeping these 2 guys the Ravens have a couple important issues that need to be addressed. First is that Jimmy Smith can't be counted on to suit up. With Smith the raven secondary is really good. He makes every other player much better. Without him the secondary was fkn helpless. Young is a good corner that will only get better and Weddle was a good safety. Consider getting Revis to play safety alongside Weddle. Trade up to get the top 2 corners in the draft or get one in free agency.
We lost 4 games due to a lack of talent in the secondary...raiders, giants, steelers and the redskins.
Secondly, we need to get the expected performance from several players....Maxx Williams, Corriea and Kafusi.
The offense is fine. Perriman and Waller will step up and be good #1 and #2 recievers. Along with Moore and Aiken this is all Joe should need I love West and Dixon. Pitta was really good last year and should be even better next year. Boyle should be good and Juice is really coming into his own. His TD run on Christmas Day was highlight reel stuff...knocking Pittsburgh's hardest hitter on his butt in a head on collision and getting into the end zone on all fours.He should be resigned at all costs. He proved his toughness and determination beyond all doubt. Despite all the criticism, Flacco is a great QB. His performance on Christmas Day was exceptional and should have been enough to win the game and the division title. He can't carry the team by himself (like Big Ben) but can take a solid team a long way in the playoffs. Last year the Raven's lack of talent in the secondary cost them a very good season.
But the guys on the hot seat should Harbaugh and Pees. John made some bonehead decisions that cost us at least 2 games. Pees called some great games but screwed them up in the 4th quarter by abandoning his game plan and going to "prevent" which only prevented us from winning. On Christmas day, watching Brown and Bell be allowed to run free from the line of scrimmage after we had a 20-10 lead made me sick. We shut them down for 3 quarters.....then called off the dogs and gave them life. So stupid. Pees and a lack of individual talent in the secondary allowed them to make a MIRACLE comeback. Never should have happened.
I have really loved Harbaugh for the since he took over years but in the last 2 years he has come up very short. Until then he exemplified great coaching by always getting the most out of his team. The last 2 years, especially last year, he got the very least out of his team. IMO, the worst they could have done was 8-8. That was a 12-4 team all day long and should have been in NE playing them for the AFC Championship. The fact that they humbled the Steelers (21-0 with 8 min left) in the first game at Balt and were winning in Pittsburgh 28-24 with 1:15 left in the game and Pitts at their own 8 yard line is enough evidence to suggest they were a superior team to the Steelers. To be sitting at home for the playoffs was a GD crime.
IMO Steve Biscoitti knows this as well. Losing games to inferior teams due to bonehead coaching decisions late in the game should no longer be tolerated. Credit from prior good performance has been used up. Exceeding expectations and creating a team that that is greater than the sum of the parts is a must. Missing the playoffs three years in a row will be convincing evidence that we need new leadership. I'd rather finish in last place with a terrible team than watch a really good team under perform and fail to achieve their potential.

Good god wall of text.  Its like that new movie, The Great Wall.  Just like that movie, most of this post makes zero sense, has zero logic. 

So cut Suggs and Doom?  I can see Doom being let go but Suggs is still very productive, yes we need to find his replacement, but if your talking about what brings toughness to our defense, yea, cutting Suggs sounds  very logical. 

Wallace- can go either way

Aiken isnt even on this team anymore

I would hope Ben could take a solid team to the playoffs, he has a top WR and the best RB in football.  Who does Joe have?

So yea, lets cut Joe if he doesnt take a "pay-cut' like Brady, which isnt a pay-cut in reality.  Oh, not to mention the 47million dollar cap hit we would have.  You must of just ignored that.

Waller and BP as number 1 and 2, good god thats a terrible.  Go into a season with guy who has 38 career catches as the number one, great idea.  Have you seen him play? He is not ready for that, its obvious.

Revis has four counts of felony charges and has lost about fourteen steps and will be suspended.  Have fun with that.

You make some good points but when you start abbreviating your curse words like a 16 year old, you kind of lose credit-ability to be taken seriously, should fit right in here. 

 

[sizzlingdoom]

  12 hours ago, bioLarzen said:

"RAVENS GIVE 'VERY COMPETITIVE' OFFER TO RICK WAGNER"

Doesn't mean a thing. That was the exact same phrase ("a very competitive offer") they used about Osemele last season - and we all know how that worked out...

Yea, making him a top 5 paid G in the league, how disrespectful. 

Not disrespectful. Just lame. We had the best 2 guards in football and we let one go. Our own talent. The ravens FO is getting disgraceful. Paying people like Watson and Wright 3+ mil a year each for multiple years instead of paying up for the best guard in football. Wright might not even be able to make any team in the league this year! The worst team in the league didn't want him yet we go full [profanity deleted] mode and sign him to a multi year contract for our cb solution?!?! It's laughable, but crying would be more appropriate. The 49ers cut him!!! Yet we let him cover AB in a do or die game for the season and division. Harbaugh and Ozzie.........yeah. And you're right, we are struggling with the facts. Struggling cuz they are so painful and don't make any sense what so ever. At least if a championship is the goal. Straight embarrassing is what the Ravens were last year. And that's goes for everything except the players

[usmccharles]

7 minutes ago, sizzlingdoom said:

Not disrespectful. Just lame. We had the best 2 guards in football and we let one go. Our own talent. The ravens FO is getting disgraceful. Paying people like Watson and Wright 3+ mil a year each for multiple years instead of paying up for the best guard in football. Wright might not even be able to make any team in the league this year! The worst team in the league didn't want him yet we go full [profanity deleted] mode and sign him to a multi year contract for our cb solution?!?! It's laughable, but crying would be more appropriate. The 49ers cut him!!! Yet we let him cover AB in a do or die game for the season and division. Harbaugh and Ozzie.........yeah. And you're right, we are struggling with the facts. Struggling cuz they are so painful and don't make any sense what so ever. At least if a championship is the goal. Straight embarrassing is what the Ravens were last year. And that's goes for everything except the players

You and i dont always disagree as crazy as you think that is.  Wright was an interesting signing and at first, i was not a fan of letting him be one on one with Torrey Smith, obviously.  But CB depth is always good as we have found out.  Didnt he actually play pretty well down the stretch as well?   As fans we wont always be behind every move the FO makes and we have to remember we dont know the full story almost all of the time. 

I hated the Watson signing but we cant really judge it as we cant predict injuries. 

But we just disagree about the KO thing. 

But when a poster responds to something i put effort into and just calls me DeCosta, why would anyone take him seriously, which i dont think anyone does. 

Edited March 2 by usmccharles

[PurpleHorseman]

11 hours ago, usmccharles said:

Yea, making him a top 5 paid G in the league, how disrespectful. 

What was the offer to Osemele? Anybody know Wagner's offer? If Osemele was offered $7.5million per year I could see that as disrespectful. Logan Mankins got about $10million a year. As did Carl Nicks. Take into consideration salaries escalate.  At least $2 million per year less than Logan Mankins got 5 years ago could be taken as a lowball. Especially when he may have been retained as our left tackle.

  That and I think Osemele was comparing himself to Lane Johnson. An unusually long non LT who is projected to be a really good one when he eventually takes the position. It will be interesting to see what Zeitler gets. His contract will give some indication if anything less than $10million per year is a lowball for an all pro guard. Or if Osemele's perceived low ball offer is based on left tackle/Lane Johnson money. Maybe $10million and over is the new standard for a pro bowl guard. 

  Nonetheless letting Osemele walk turned out to be a good thing. The best tackles in the last 10 drafts were coming out. And ravens got one of them. Speaking of Zeitler if we can get him for about $8million per year that is in upgrade of our line. Osemele is longer than Zeitler but Zeitler is a more aware player of stunts and blitzes along the interior. He is very good for zone or power schemes. And could probably play center if necessary. 

  So with Stanley and Tunsil coming out there was no need to pay Osemele. And I wouldn't discount landing Zeitler. Harbaugh said upgrading the line is priority. Stanley and Zeitler makes for a hell of a left side of the line. Lewis can play RT or RG. Which  means if ravens draft a good RT or RG we successfully upgraded the offensive line without breaking the bank for Osemele. Nor overpay for a solid but not elite RT. If Lewis can play RT the offensive line could be really awesome if we draft Feeney or Robinson to play RG. Ravens will have built a great line even after Yanda retires without paying Osemele over $10million or overpay Wagner. I think Yanda can play center if need be. He is a savvy vet. And Center calls for more cerebral capacity and less physical as Yanda gets older.

Edited March 2 by PurpleHorseman

[sizzlingdoom]

  16 minutes ago, sizzlingdoom said:

Not disrespectful. Just lame. We had the best 2 guards in football and we let one go. Our own talent. The ravens FO is getting disgraceful. Paying people like Watson and Wright 3+ mil a year each for multiple years instead of paying up for the best guard in football. Wright might not even be able to make any team in the league this year! The worst team in the league didn't want him yet we go full [profanity deleted] mode and sign him to a multi year contract for our cb solution?!?! It's laughable, but crying would be more appropriate. The 49ers cut him!!! Yet we let him cover AB in a do or die game for the season and division. Harbaugh and Ozzie.........yeah. And you're right, we are struggling with the facts. Struggling cuz they are so painful and don't make any sense what so ever. At least if a championship is the goal. Straight embarrassing is what the Ravens were last year. And that's goes for everything except the players

You and i dont always disagree as crazy as you think that is.  Wright was an interesting signing and at first, i was not a fan of letting him be one on one with Torrey Smith, obviously.  But CB depth is always good as we have found out.  Didnt he actually play pretty well down the stretch as well?   As fans we wont always be behind every move the FO makes and we have to remember we dont know the full story almost all of the time. 

But we just disagree about the KO thing. 

But when a poster responds to something i put effort into and just calls me DeCosta, why would anyone take him seriously, which i dont think anyone does. 

I hear ya. Makes sense. Him just putting Decosta is lame, but at least it's not half as lame as some of these other users that just put others down while they pretend what others say is "wrong". When 99% of the stuff put on here is opinion. People like rmcjacket and Conquerworm. Unfortunately I stooped to their level after seeing their numerous disgusting responses to others just harmlessly posting their 2 cents. I'll just feel bad for those 2 sad users instead. We're all ravens fans here. Obviously. Even if we disagree, we should be able to discuss that decently. In fact, when people disagree it usually makes for a more interesting discussion, if a discussion in fact is what it is.
The KO thing we do disagree on. It happens.
The Wright thing is the most frustrating thing I've seen in years. It 's probably even worse than letting Q go. Maybe. The contract was one thing. Relying on him going into the season is another. Even another thing that he gets torched worse than just about any corner has ever in weeks 2-6 or so. BUT THEN, we bring him back, AND he's guarding AB in Pittsburgh with the entire season on the line.
The coaching wasn't just awful last year, it really was embarrassing. Unreal that Steve brought these coaches back. Especially when Shannahan was available. Would've been the very best thing that could've happened to Flacco and the Ravens

[usmccharles]

4 minutes ago, PurpleHorseman said:

What was the offer to Osemele? Anybody know Wagner's offer? If Osemele was offered $7.5million per year I could see that as disrespectful. Logan Mankins got about $10million a year. As did Carl Nicks. Take into consideration salaries escalate.  At least $2 million per year less than Logan Mankins got 5 years ago could be taken as a lowball. Especially when he may have been retained as our left tackle.

  That and I think Osemele was comparing himself to Lane Johnson. An unusually long non LT who is projected to be a really good one when he eventually takes the position. It will be interesting to see what Zeitler gets. His contract will give some indication if anything less than $10million per year is a lowball for an all pro guard. Or if Osemele's perceived low ball offer is based on left tackle/Lane Johnson money. Maybe $10million and over is the new standard for a pro bowl guard. 

  Nonetheless letting Osemele walk turned out to be a good thing. The best tackles in the last 10 drafts were coming out. And ravens got one of them. Speaking of Zeitler if we can get him for about $8million per year that is in upgrade of our line. Osemele is longer than Zeitler but Zeitler is a more aware player of stunts and blitzes along the interior. He is very good for zone or power schemes. And could probably play center if necessary. 

  So with Stanley and Tunsil coming out there was no need to pay Osemele. And I wouldn't discount landing Zeitler. Harbaugh said upgrading the line is priority. Stanley and Zeitler makes for a hell of a left side of the line. Lewis can play RT or RG. Which  means if ravens draft a good RT or RG we successfully upgraded the offensive line without breaking the bank for Osemele. Nor overpay for a solid but not elite RT. If Lewis can play RT the offensive line could be really awesome if we draft Feeney or Robinson to play RG. Ravens will have built a great line without paying Osemele over $10million or overpay Wagner.

We offered KO money that would make him top 5, i think it might of been top 3 at his position.  Since the Raiders are going to move him to LT AND have the cap money to pay him as such, it makes perfect sense for them.  We didnt have the cap room to do so.   7.5 would of made him second highest paid....I still cant see that as disrespectful.  The guys you mentioned are FA so it doesnt really matter what they previously got as the market value is dictated by what players are getting pad at this moment. 

I like Zeitler but i would rather see us sign Wagner and Mangold.  Having Stanley - Lewis - Mangold - Yanda - Wagner would make me very happy and i think we would see our offense finally take a step in the right direction.  Are you suggesting letting Wagner walk, move Lewis to RT and sign Zeitler?

[usmccharles]

11 minutes ago, sizzlingdoom said:

I hear ya. Makes sense. Him just putting Decosta is lame, but at least it's not half as lame as some of these other users that just put others down while they pretend what others say is "wrong". When 99% of the stuff put on here is opinion. People like rmcjacket and Conquerworm. Unfortunately I stooped to their level after seeing their numerous disgusting responses to others just harmlessly posting their 2 cents. I'll just feel bad for those 2 sad users instead. We're all ravens fans here. Obviously. Even if we disagree, we should be able to discuss that decently. In fact, when people disagree it usually makes for a more interesting discussion, if a discussion in fact is what it is.
The KO thing we do disagree on. It happens.
The Wright thing is the most frustrating thing I've seen in years. It 's probably even worse than letting Q go. Maybe. The contract was one thing. Relying on him going into the season is another. Even another thing that he gets torched worse than just about any corner has ever in weeks 2-6 or so. BUT THEN, we bring him back, AND he's guarding AB in Pittsburgh with the entire season on the line.
The coaching wasn't just awful last year, it really was embarrassing. Unreal that Steve brought these coaches back. Especially when Shannahan was available. Would've been the very best thing that could've happened to Flacco and the Ravens

I am a little different on the Q thing because from what i remember, without trading Q we couldnt have landed Doom, maybe im wrong.  But what made no sense to me is that the FO traded Joe's go to guy after giving him the massive contract and didnt bring anyone in to help.  I believe our FO has lacked giving Joe enough talent around him.  Just look at the collection of talent we had on offense in our SB year, we didnt have any elite WR but we had a collection of guys that did great and we also had a great RB.  I think the RB position is key to our success, more than most. 

Honestly, Decosta knows more about football than anyone on here, so its kind of a compliment, i  just stating his lack of effort to form a competent response. 

[hen826957]

2 hours ago, huntrgathrr said:

The Ravens better wake up and smell the roses....we need to keep Wagner and Brandon Williams no matter what the cost. These 2 cannot be replaced either through the draft or free agency. Cut Wallace, Suggs and Dumervil if necessary..all are overpriced relative to their current ability to contribute.These 2 give our team mental and physical toughness on both sides of the ball. Williams is worth 2 players as he frees up his line mates (Jernigan and Pierce) to excel. Wagner completes the trifecta on the offensive line with Yanda and Stanley. Without these two the Ravens won't compete. Maybe Flacco can take a page from Brady's book and restructure his contract to allow the Ravens the cap space to keep the players they need to be a winning team. If he doesn't I have no problem cutting him and going with Mallett.
In addition to keeping these 2 guys the Ravens have a couple important issues that need to be addressed. First is that Jimmy Smith can't be counted on to suit up. With Smith the raven secondary is really good. He makes every other player much better. Without him the secondary was fkn helpless. Young is a good corner that will only get better and Weddle was a good safety. Consider getting Revis to play safety alongside Weddle. Trade up to get the top 2 corners in the draft or get one in free agency.
We lost 4 games due to a lack of talent in the secondary...raiders, giants, steelers and the redskins.
Secondly, we need to get the expected performance from several players....Maxx Williams, Corriea and Kafusi.
The offense is fine. Perriman and Waller will step up and be good #1 and #2 recievers. Along with Moore and Aiken this is all Joe should need I love West and Dixon. Pitta was really good last year and should be even better next year. Boyle should be good and Juice is really coming into his own. His TD run on Christmas Day was highlight reel stuff...knocking Pittsburgh's hardest hitter on his butt in a head on collision and getting into the end zone on all fours.He should be resigned at all costs. He proved his toughness and determination beyond all doubt. Despite all the criticism, Flacco is a great QB. His performance on Christmas Day was exceptional and should have been enough to win the game and the division title. He can't carry the team by himself (like Big Ben) but can take a solid team a long way in the playoffs. Last year the Raven's lack of talent in the secondary cost them a very good season.
But the guys on the hot seat should Harbaugh and Pees. John made some bonehead decisions that cost us at least 2 games. Pees called some great games but screwed them up in the 4th quarter by abandoning his game plan and going to "prevent" which only prevented us from winning. On Christmas day, watching Brown and Bell be allowed to run free from the line of scrimmage after we had a 20-10 lead made me sick. We shut them down for 3 quarters.....then called off the dogs and gave them life. So stupid. Pees and a lack of individual talent in the secondary allowed them to make a MIRACLE comeback. Never should have happened.
I have really loved Harbaugh for the since he took over years but in the last 2 years he has come up very short. Until then he exemplified great coaching by always getting the most out of his team. The last 2 years, especially last year, he got the very least out of his team. IMO, the worst they could have done was 8-8. That was a 12-4 team all day long and should have been in NE playing them for the AFC Championship. The fact that they humbled the Steelers (21-0 with 8 min left) in the first game at Balt and were winning in Pittsburgh 28-24 with 1:15 left in the game and Pitts at their own 8 yard line is enough evidence to suggest they were a superior team to the Steelers. To be sitting at home for the playoffs was a GD crime.
IMO Steve Biscoitti knows this as well. Losing games to inferior teams due to bonehead coaching decisions late in the game should no longer be tolerated. Credit from prior good performance has been used up. Exceeding expectations and creating a team that that is greater than the sum of the parts is a must. Missing the playoffs three years in a row will be convincing evidence that we need new leadership. I'd rather finish in last place with a terrible team than watch a really good team under perform and fail to achieve their potential.

Cut Suggs and Dumervil at the same time... what? If they do that they will not only lose leadership but lack of passrushing and we will have more problems and holes to fill. Not a good idea on that one.

Edited March 2 by hen826957

[sizzlingdoom]

  18 minutes ago, sizzlingdoom said:

I hear ya. Makes sense. Him just putting Decosta is lame, but at least it's not half as lame as some of these other users that just put others down while they pretend what others say is "wrong". When 99% of the stuff put on here is opinion. People like rmcjacket and Conquerworm. Unfortunately I stooped to their level after seeing their numerous disgusting responses to others just harmlessly posting their 2 cents. I'll just feel bad for those 2 sad users instead. We're all ravens fans here. Obviously. Even if we disagree, we should be able to discuss that decently. In fact, when people disagree it usually makes for a more interesting discussion, if a discussion in fact is what it is.
The KO thing we do disagree on. It happens.
The Wright thing is the most frustrating thing I've seen in years. It 's probably even worse than letting Q go. Maybe. The contract was one thing. Relying on him going into the season is another. Even another thing that he gets torched worse than just about any corner has ever in weeks 2-6 or so. BUT THEN, we bring him back, AND he's guarding AB in Pittsburgh with the entire season on the line.
The coaching wasn't just awful last year, it really was embarrassing. Unreal that Steve brought these coaches back. Especially when Shannahan was available. Would've been the very best thing that could've happened to Flacco and the Ravens

I am a little different on the Q thing because from what i remember, without trading Q we couldnt have landed Doom, maybe im wrong.  But what made no sense to me is that the FO traded Joe's go to guy after giving him the massive contract and didnt bring anyone in to help.  I believe our FO has lacked giving Joe enough talent around him.  Just look at the collection of talent we had on offense in our SB year, we didnt have any elite WR but we had a collection of guys that did great and we also had a great RB.  I think the RB position is key to our success, more than most. 

Honestly, Decosta knows more about football than anyone on here, so its kind of a compliment, i  just stating his lack of effort to form a competent response. 

Yeah, what's crazy to me is even after as many whiffs as we've had for several year running now in the high rounds, and bad signings, and all that. We still easily had at least the second most talented roster in the AFC last year. Yet we didn't make the playoffs. Solely because of coaching imo. But I think it's borderline fact too. Just so disheartening. Not to mention they ALL come back, except for the one awesome coach, Frazier. Just a massive bummer

[sizzlingdoom]

  24 minutes ago, sizzlingdoom said:

I hear ya. Makes sense. Him just putting Decosta is lame, but at least it's not half as lame as some of these other users that just put others down while they pretend what others say is "wrong". When 99% of the stuff put on here is opinion. People like rmcjacket and Conquerworm. Unfortunately I stooped to their level after seeing their numerous disgusting responses to others just harmlessly posting their 2 cents. I'll just feel bad for those 2 sad users instead. We're all ravens fans here. Obviously. Even if we disagree, we should be able to discuss that decently. In fact, when people disagree it usually makes for a more interesting discussion, if a discussion in fact is what it is.
The KO thing we do disagree on. It happens.
The Wright thing is the most frustrating thing I've seen in years. It 's probably even worse than letting Q go. Maybe. The contract was one thing. Relying on him going into the season is another. Even another thing that he gets torched worse than just about any corner has ever in weeks 2-6 or so. BUT THEN, we bring him back, AND he's guarding AB in Pittsburgh with the entire season on the line.
The coaching wasn't just awful last year, it really was embarrassing. Unreal that Steve brought these coaches back. Especially when Shannahan was available. Would've been the very best thing that could've happened to Flacco and the Ravens

I am a little different on the Q thing because from what i remember, without trading Q we couldnt have landed Doom, maybe im wrong.  But what made no sense to me is that the FO traded Joe's go to guy after giving him the massive contract and didnt bring anyone in to help.  I believe our FO has lacked giving Joe enough talent around him.  Just look at the collection of talent we had on offense in our SB year, we didnt have any elite WR but we had a collection of guys that did great and we also had a great RB.  I think the RB position is key to our success, more than most. 

Honestly, Decosta knows more about football than anyone on here, so its kind of a compliment, i  just stating his lack of effort to form a competent response. 

And when they say they put a "very competitive offer" out there, that's just straight puke worthy. We all know what that means. Harbaugh should be a politician

[PurpleHorseman]

23 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

We offered KO money that would make him top 5, i think it might of been top 3 at his position.  Since the Raiders are going to move him to LT AND have the cap money to pay him as such, it makes perfect sense for them.  We didnt have the cap room to do so.   7.5 would of made him second highest paid....I still cant see that as disrespectful.  The guys you mentioned are FA so it doesnt really matter what they previously got as the market value is dictated by what players are getting pad at this moment. 

I like Zeitler but i would rather see us sign Wagner and Mangold.  Having Stanley - Lewis - Mangold - Yanda - Wagner would make me very happy and i think we would see our offense finally take a step in the right direction.  Are you suggesting letting Wagner walk, move Lewis to RT and sign Zeitler?

Of course I would allow Wagner to walk to sign Zeitler for the same money. Wagner is a little above average and struggles at times. I like Mangold but we don't know if he will bounce back or if he actually declined. I think Lewis can handle RT as well as Wagner. He is similar to Mitchell Schwartz. Maybe a touch more athletic. He has a superior understanding of angles and blocking giving hanging up his opponent. Lewis was unfairly grilled by scouts for his fight. After some experience I think Lewis is as good maybe better than Wagner.

7.5 is very disrespectful next to $10million. It is paying somebody 75% of what he is worth. Contracts are not guaranteed in football. Players only hit free agency in their prime once. Then we don't know how much was guaranteed. Teams throw big numbers out there but those total numbers are rarely reached.

[Cawtious]

15 hours ago, billiejean said:

I dont think you can come to that type of conclusion based solely on "filmstudy".  Although Ducasse is terrible he played better than those guys did at the beginning of the season.  I think the real question for John would be why did we cut Ducasse and let Urschel and Jenon start ahead of him.  Does the RSR have a place where they post the grades that players recieved for each game in one place or is it a bunch of different articles.

Didn't say I based on filmstudy solely.  I have eyes and watched game films.  Just my opinion and I guy I have respect for.

[rmcjacket23]

  5 hours ago, usmccharles said:

  5 hours ago, sizzlingdoom said:

I hear ya. Makes sense. Him just putting Decosta is lame, but at least it's not half as lame as some of these other users that just put others down while they pretend what others say is "wrong". When 99% of the stuff put on here is opinion. People like rmcjacket and Conquerworm. Unfortunately I stooped to their level after seeing their numerous disgusting responses to others just harmlessly posting their 2 cents. I'll just feel bad for those 2 sad users instead. We're all ravens fans here. Obviously. Even if we disagree, we should be able to discuss that decently. In fact, when people disagree it usually makes for a more interesting discussion, if a discussion in fact is what it is.
The KO thing we do disagree on. It happens.
The Wright thing is the most frustrating thing I've seen in years. It 's probably even worse than letting Q go. Maybe. The contract was one thing. Relying on him going into the season is another. Even another thing that he gets torched worse than just about any corner has ever in weeks 2-6 or so. BUT THEN, we bring him back, AND he's guarding AB in Pittsburgh with the entire season on the line.
The coaching wasn't just awful last year, it really was embarrassing. Unreal that Steve brought these coaches back. Especially when Shannahan was available. Would've been the very best thing that could've happened to Flacco and the Ravens

I am a little different on the Q thing because from what i remember, without trading Q we couldnt have landed Doom, maybe im wrong.  But what made no sense to me is that the FO traded Joe's go to guy after giving him the massive contract and didnt bring anyone in to help.  I believe our FO has lacked giving Joe enough talent around him.  Just look at the collection of talent we had on offense in our SB year, we didnt have any elite WR but we had a collection of guys that did great and we also had a great RB.  I think the RB position is key to our success, more than most. 

Honestly, Decosta knows more about football than anyone on here, so its kind of a compliment, i  just stating his lack of effort to form a competent response. 

Yeah, what's crazy to me is even after as many whiffs as we've had for several year running now in the high rounds, and bad signings, and all that. We still easily had at least the second most talented roster in the AFC last year. Yet we didn't make the playoffs. Solely because of coaching imo. But I think it's borderline fact too. Just so disheartening. Not to mention they ALL come back, except for the one awesome coach, Frazier. Just a massive bummer

Yeah couldn't disagree with this more. We have major talent issues all over our roster. In particular, I think it would be largely difficult to name many talented players on our roster under the age of 30 at the moment, which is a MAJOR problem.

The biggest difference between us and Pittsburgh last year was playmakers and talent. Their offense is riddled with All-World and above average players at nearly every position. Ours is pretty much the exact opposite.

Like nobody realistically looks at our roster compared to a Pittsburgh, Dallas, Atlanta, etc. and thinks that we are on the same playing field. Just because you play those teams tight doesn't mean you're as good as them.

[rmcjacket23]

  16 hours ago, usmccharles said:

Yea, making him a top 5 paid G in the league, how disrespectful. 

What was the offer to Osemele? Anybody know Wagner's offer? If Osemele was offered $7.5million per year I could see that as disrespectful. Logan Mankins got about $10million a year. As did Carl Nicks. Take into consideration salaries escalate.  At least $2 million per year less than Logan Mankins got 5 years ago could be taken as a lowball. Especially when he may have been retained as our left tackle.

  That and I think Osemele was comparing himself to Lane Johnson. An unusually long non LT who is projected to be a really good one when he eventually takes the position. It will be interesting to see what Zeitler gets. His contract will give some indication if anything less than $10million per year is a lowball for an all pro guard. Or if Osemele's perceived low ball offer is based on left tackle/Lane Johnson money. Maybe $10million and over is the new standard for a pro bowl guard. 

  Nonetheless letting Osemele walk turned out to be a good thing. The best tackles in the last 10 drafts were coming out. And ravens got one of them. Speaking of Zeitler if we can get him for about $8million per year that is in upgrade of our line. Osemele is longer than Zeitler but Zeitler is a more aware player of stunts and blitzes along the interior. He is very good for zone or power schemes. And could probably play center if necessary. 

  So with Stanley and Tunsil coming out there was no need to pay Osemele. And I wouldn't discount landing Zeitler. Harbaugh said upgrading the line is priority. Stanley and Zeitler makes for a hell of a left side of the line. Lewis can play RT or RG. Which  means if ravens draft a good RT or RG we successfully upgraded the offensive line without breaking the bank for Osemele. Nor overpay for a solid but not elite RT. If Lewis can play RT the offensive line could be really awesome if we draft Feeney or Robinson to play RG. Ravens will have built a great line even after Yanda retires without paying Osemele over $10million or overpay Wagner. I think Yanda can play center if need be. He is a savvy vet. And Center calls for more cerebral capacity and less physical as Yanda gets older.

1. If the Ravens offered KO $7.5M a year (which I believe it was a little bit more than this), it still would have been a valid offer, considering we were making him an offer to play LT, not LG. There was no scenario where we were retaining KO to play LG for us.

At $7.5M, it would have paid him to be in the top half of the league as a LT, which would have been valid, given that he played a very small amount of time at LT and was largely average at it.

2. Your market comparisons are a bit off. For starters, Mankins contract (signed in 2011) was for $8.5M/year, and Carl Nicks was at $9.5M/year back in 2012.

The problem is that the CURRENT market conditions wouldn't support those numbers. At the time that KO signed his deal (last year), the highest paid Guard in football was Mike Iupati, at $8M a year. While there are now a handful of players making more than that, ALL of them signed last season as well (Kyle Long, David DeCastro mostly).

So at that time, the top of the market price for a top tier Guard was probably in the range of $8-9M, given that Iupati's deal was for $8M and was just a year old at the time, so even with inflation, you couldn't really argue going over $9M.

Obviously, the Raiders just decided to destroy the market by offering what they did, due to the gigantic amount of money they had available to spend and being able to keep him for a few years until they can no longer afford to.

Again, we don't know for certain what the Ravens offer to KO was, but the price tag between an average LT and a top tier Guard was practically the same, likely in the $8-9M range. So if we offered in that range, which I suspect we did, then I have no issue with our stance.

[billiejean]

3 hours ago, Cawtious said:

Didn't say I based on filmstudy solely.  I have eyes and watched game films.  Just my opinion and I guy I have respect for.

Do you have NFL game pass?

[PurpleHorseman]

3 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1. If the Ravens offered KO $7.5M a year (which I believe it was a little bit more than this), it still would have been a valid offer, considering we were making him an offer to play LT, not LG. There was no scenario where we were retaining KO to play LG for us.

At $7.5M, it would have paid him to be in the top half of the league as a LT, which would have been valid, given that he played a very small amount of time at LT and was largely average at it.

2. Your market comparisons are a bit off. For starters, Mankins contract (signed in 2011) was for $8.5M/year, and Carl Nicks was at $9.5M/year back in 2012.

The problem is that the CURRENT market conditions wouldn't support those numbers. At the time that KO signed his deal (last year), the highest paid Guard in football was Mike Iupati, at $8M a year. While there are now a handful of players making more than that, ALL of them signed last season as well (Kyle Long, David DeCastro mostly).

So at that time, the top of the market price for a top tier Guard was probably in the range of $8-9M, given that Iupati's deal was for $8M and was just a year old at the time, so even with inflation, you couldn't really argue going over $9M.

Obviously, the Raiders just decided to destroy the market by offering what they did, due to the gigantic amount of money they had available to spend and being able to keep him for a few years until they can no longer afford to.

Again, we don't know for certain what the Ravens offer to KO was, but the price tag between an average LT and a top tier Guard was practically the same, likely in the $8-9M range. So if we offered in that range, which I suspect we did, then I have no issue with our stance.

If all those players signed last year then that is the current market. Not saying. We should have given him $11.5million or even $10million. But that is the market for an elite Guard. Especially when proven to be able to play left tackle at a high level if needed. It will be interesting to see what kevin Zeitler gets next week.

[PurpleHorseman]

40 minutes ago, billiejean said:

Do you have NFL game pass?

What is that 

[rmcjacket23]

28 minutes ago, PurpleHorseman said:

If all those players signed last year then that is the current market. Not saying. We should have given him $11.5million or even $10million. But that is the market for an elite Guard. Especially when proven to be able to play left tackle at a high level if needed. It will be interesting to see what kevin Zeitler gets next week.

Yes, its the current market, but it wasn't the market last season. I definitely wouldn't have paid him $10M to play Guard, because its borderline impossible to get that kind of ROI, especially when we already have a highly paid Guard on the roster who's arguably better than he is.

Would also be difficult to pay him that as a LT without knowing if he's any good at being a LT, which is the only thing we were offering him a contract for.

Even now, KO is still like 15-20% higher than what comparable Guards are getting.

[usmccharles]

8 hours ago, PurpleHorseman said:

Of course I would allow Wagner to walk to sign Zeitler for the same money. Wagner is a little above average and struggles at times. I like Mangold but we don't know if he will bounce back or if he actually declined. I think Lewis can handle RT as well as Wagner. He is similar to Mitchell Schwartz. Maybe a touch more athletic. He has a superior understanding of angles and blocking giving hanging up his opponent. Lewis was unfairly grilled by scouts for his fight. After some experience I think Lewis is as good maybe better than Wagner.

7.5 is very disrespectful next to $10million. It is paying somebody 75% of what he is worth. Contracts are not guaranteed in football. Players only hit free agency in their prime once. Then we don't know how much was guaranteed. Teams throw big numbers out there but those total numbers are rarely reached.

I just don't get using players who aren't even under contract anymore as a baseline. 

Lewis has not shown any reason for us to think he can handle RT duties considering he was struggling a bit at G.  Don't get me wrong, I would love to let Wagner walk and let Lewis takeover with out losing quality play, but I think its too risky.  Then we have to replace a G and C. 

If we sign Wagner, keep Lewis at G, we only need to replace a C.  I think that's the better route.

3 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Yeah couldn't disagree with this more. We have major talent issues all over our roster. In particular, I think it would be largely difficult to name many talented players on our roster under the age of 30 at the moment, which is a MAJOR problem.
The biggest difference between us and Pittsburgh last year was playmakers and talent. Their offense is riddled with All-World and above average players at nearly every position. Ours is pretty much the exact opposite.
Like nobody realistically looks at our roster compared to a Pittsburgh, Dallas, Atlanta, etc. and thinks that we are on the same playing field. Just because you play those teams tight doesn't mean you're as good as them.

Not sure if you meant to quote me. 

In no way I would agree that we are near the same level of talent as Pit

[PurpleHorseman]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Yes, its the current market, but it wasn't the market last season. I definitely wouldn't have paid him $10M to play Guard, because its borderline impossible to get that kind of ROI, especially when we already have a highly paid Guard on the roster who's arguably better than he is.

Would also be difficult to pay him that as a LT without knowing if he's any good at being a LT, which is the only thing we were offering him a contract for.

Even now, KO is still like 15-20% higher than what comparable Guards are getting.

I would agree with 4 yrs 40mil because that is the market. But I did not agree with 12million at the time. However with harbaugh saying the offensive line is top priority. The resources to replace Osemele and build an elite line could get quite expensive. considering money and draft picks. Look at the resources spent at TE. And there is yet no clear answer that we know will win the job.

Edited March 2 by PurpleHorseman

[rmcjacket23]

37 minutes ago, PurpleHorseman said:

I would agree with 4 yrs 40mil because that is the market. But I did not agree with 12million at the time. However with harbaugh saying the offensive line is top priority. The resources to replace Osemele and build an elite line could get quite expensive. considering money and draft picks. Look at the resources spent at TE. And there is yet no clear answer that we know will win the job.

I wouldn't have agree with paying him 4 years, $40M to play LT for us last season. That wouldn't have made any sense to me. Not really interested in what the Guard market was, because he was never going to play Guard for us going forward.

As for TE, the only valuable investment is in Pitta. Watson's contract was extremely cheap and team friendly, and everybody else is on a rookie deal for practically nothing.

Watson was only signed as a hedge against not knowing the health status of Pitta or Gillmore anyway. Plus, TE isn't a position where somebody has to "win" the starting job. Different TEs offer different skill sets, so you'll see multiple play often and sometimes even at the same time. 

[PurpleHorseman]

So what is NFL game pass??