[News] Free Agency Primer: Ravens FB Kyle Juszczyk

[BR News]

The fullback is hitting the market at the right time after making the Pro Bowl for the first time in his career.

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[Chuckx999]

37 catches, 266 yards, 5 carries, 22 yards, 1 TD. I don't think anyone will mistake him as the next Jim Brown.
Let him walk. Use the money on a tackle/center and/or a CB.

[crazyboutravens]

Typical of the Ravens they do not seem in any hurry to address any of the free
agents. Need to remind Ozzie the season will be here soon.

[Steve32]

Typical of the Ravens they do not seem in any hurry to address any of the free
agents. Need to remind Ozzie the season will be here soon.

It's been reported previously that the Ravens have made offers to all of their FA's. Just because they don't have an agreement doesn't mean they are not addressing it.

[FastJoey]

37 catches, 266 yards, 5 carries, 22 yards, 1 TD. I don't think anyone will mistake him as the next Jim Brown.
Let him walk. Use the money on a tackle/center and/or a CB.

Totally agree. Let him walk. Also, hardly a good lead blocker in the run game. Get a real fullback.

[ellicottraven]

I think he walks and I'm fine with it for 2 reasons. His production can easily be replicated by Boyle in his role and the more important reason is he has Linta for an agent. So knowing enough about Linta, he's going to ask for the sky but in this case won't get it.

[Somerset Ravens]

Juice does offer versatility. He is a jack of all trades but a master of none. I see him as an average blocker, nothing exceptional. His seven yard average per reception is nothing to get excited about. Losing Juice would not hurt us that much. 

[BigUgly]

5 hours ago, crazyboutravens said:

Typical of the Ravens they do not seem in any hurry to address any of the free
agents. Need to remind Ozzie the season will be here soon.

Let's think about this.  We fans are apparently wringing our hands in grief at losing an OG (Osemele), a the prospect of losing a RT, a NG and  a FB in free agency.  None of those positions is worth overpaying for, regardless of the cap situation.  Let them all go with fond wishes for success, let other teams overpay for their services, and invest the difference in their replacements and perhaps a playmaker or two.  

[bigcatfrank1]

  7 hours ago, crazyboutravens said:

Typical of the Ravens they do not seem in any hurry to address any of the free
agents. Need to remind Ozzie the season will be here soon.

Let's think about this.  We fans are apparently wringing our hands in grief at losing an OG (Osemele), a the prospect of losing a RT, a NG and  a FB in free agency.  None of those positions is worth overpaying for, regardless of the cap situation.  Let them all go with fond wishes for success, let other teams overpay for their services, and invest the difference in their replacements and perhaps a playmaker or two.  

stating the words "overpay for their services" without stating what you think should be paid is quite a bit of a cop out.
I will be specific about my opinion and comment in response, maybe you could too.
KO was not affordable, the Ravens didn't have the cap money to keep him at the "market value" of his position. The Team's cap was tipped out at the 6.7 mil that they paid Wallace and that was after KO had left.
RT Wagner, his market value is estimated at 6.7 million, The Ravens may have offered close to that. He may not get it, or he may get more from a team in dire need. I think that the Ravens could afford 6 million and that is a fair price for a solid 4 year RT.

NT- Williams his estimated NFL value could be as high as 14 Million
the price to franchise a NT in 2017 is 14.3 million. So that is about maximum value for the position. I believe that Ravens could afford 11 Million per year for Williams and that would be a fair value for him.

FB- Juice as the article states the highest paid NFL FB is at 2.5 Million Juice is worth close to that in my opinion. SInce there is not a franchise tag for Full Backs, just RB ( over 10 mil) the guage is set by the competition. Juice is perfect for the Ravens and they could be more creative with him in my opinion.

So if it was regardless of the cap, the Ravens could keep all 3 of them. But the Cap cannot be disregarded, I do not think the Ravens are willing to put 20 million down for all 3 players.
I choose Williams and Juice, let Wagner see if he can get more. If not maybe they capture him for under 6 million.

[BigUgly]

1 hour ago, bigcatfrank1 said:

stating the words "overpay for their services" without stating what you think should be paid is quite a bit of a cop out.
I will be specific about my opinion and comment in response, maybe you could too.
KO was not affordable, the Ravens didn't have the cap money to keep him at the "market value" of his position. The Team's cap was tipped out at the 6.7 mil that they paid Wallace and that was after KO had left.
RT Wagner, his market value is estimated at 6.7 million, The Ravens may have offered close to that. He may not get it, or he may get more from a team in dire need. I think that the Ravens could afford 6 million and that is a fair price for a solid 4 year RT.

NT- Williams his estimated NFL value could be as high as 14 Million
the price to franchise a NT in 2017 is 14.3 million. So that is about maximum value for the position. I believe that Ravens could afford 11 Million per year for Williams and that would be a fair value for him.

FB- Juice as the article states the highest paid NFL FB is at 2.5 Million Juice is worth close to that in my opinion. SInce there is not a franchise tag for Full Backs, just RB ( over 10 mil) the guage is set by the competition. Juice is perfect for the Ravens and they could be more creative with him in my opinion.

So if it was regardless of the cap, the Ravens could keep all 3 of them. But the Cap cannot be disregarded, I do not think the Ravens are willing to put 20 million down for all 3 players.
I choose Williams and Juice, let Wagner see if he can get more. If not maybe they capture him for under 6 million.

OK, here's some perspectives with back-of-the-envelope salary cap math (not using my kids' new common core curriculum, which would result in every answer being "42").

Paying LT money for an OG is silly...the Ravens were wise to let KO walk.  As for Wagner, Juice and Williams, the Ravens could "afford" to pay to keep all three, but the opportunity cost would be an inability to sign players for depth at other positions (ILB, OG, C, WR, DB/FS).  The Ravens currently have about $15M in cap space.  Assuming they make a reasonable set of cuts (Watson/Pitta, Doom, Wright, Lewis, maybe Webb, Zuttah, etc.) that would push the number up to about $25M net of dead money.

Ozzie wisely likes to plug holes in the roster in free agency ahead of the draft.  The market price to keep Wager (est. $7M), Williams ($11M - your estimate) and Juice (est. $2.5M) would be over $20M.  That would leave a scant $5M to plug holes at RT/G (depending on where you slot Alex Lewis), center ($1.5M), ILB ($1M), CB ($2M), Edge ($4M) and FS ($1.5M).  Also, don't forget that we will need to sign a backup QB ($2M).  That's about $12M in needs.  

If you believe in Alex Lewis at RT, and Pierce at NG, and that finding quality blocking FB (albeit without Juice's ability to catch the 3-yarder in the flat route) is fairly easy, the Ravens should invest the bulk of their notional $25M cap space in an edge rusher, defensive backfield, ILB and interior O-Line (in that order) in my opinion.  Pay for playmaker positions, and fill-in/draft/develop the rest.  RT, NG, and FB aren't playmaker positions.  Besides, we'll get comp picks to replenish those guys that were drafted in the mid rounds anyway.

Edited February 26 by BigUgly

[sizzlingdoom]

Later Juice. Average player at best. Go cash in. Perfect time for you to do so

[OzzieBisciotti]

ravens will want to keep him for $1.1M- he can't block that well - definitely not like vontae did- that's why we finished 28th in the league last year in rushing. oz will probably overpay him bc some fans like him - even though he can't block even if he was behind the wheel of a semi truck

[billiejean]

  11 hours ago, Chuckx999 said:

37 catches, 266 yards, 5 carries, 22 yards, 1 TD. I don't think anyone will mistake him as the next Jim Brown.
Let him walk. Use the money on a tackle/center and/or a CB.

Totally agree. Let him walk. Also, hardly a good lead blocker in the run game. Get a real fullback.

If your definition of being "hardly a good lead blocker" is a guy who comes in 2nd in the league in blocking proficiency, then yea he is "hardly a good lead blocker: That said, I am not opposed to the idea of letting him walk.

[sizzlingdoom]

  10 hours ago, FastJoey said:

  12 hours ago, Chuckx999 said:

37 catches, 266 yards, 5 carries, 22 yards, 1 TD. I don't think anyone will mistake him as the next Jim Brown.
Let him walk. Use the money on a tackle/center and/or a CB.

Totally agree. Let him walk. Also, hardly a good lead blocker in the run game. Get a real fullback.

If your definition of being "hardly a good lead blocker" is a guy who comes in 2nd in the league in blocking proficiency, then yea he is "hardly a good lead blocker: That said, I am not opposed to the idea of letting him walk.

Give me a break! The ratings of positions are lame and all over the place. Anyone that watched Ravens games knows he singled handily cost us games with miss blocks each week throughout the the year, Giants and Pats games are immediate standouts with serious game planning and blocking issues. And huge miscusses by JUICE. We're living in the past. It's like we're trying to coach offense as if it was the same 20 years ago. STRAIGHT. Embarrassing. Will STeve ever consider bringing in real coaches? It's nice Ray and Ed got you a SB, but retire John, PLEASE

[sizzlingdoom]

ravens will want to keep him for $1.1M- he can't block that well - definitely not like vontae did- that's why we finished 28th in the league last year in rushing. oz will probably overpay him bc some fans like him - even though he can't block even if he was behind the wheel of a semi truck

terribly, terribly overated player. I would hardly consider him an average player. If we retain him for anything more than 1 mil a year, we're in a worse state than I thought. He'll flee though, luckily perfect timing for us. We can't even keep our good players, cuz our Ravens contracts are terrible and embarrassing. But luckily in about 5 ways, it's perfect timing fro him to leave. NOT JOKING AT ALL, the only reason our fans are stoked at ALL that like him, is cuz they get to chat JUICE. SERIOUSLY. Our franchise is falling apart. We are either playing Brady in the championship next season, or WE ARE STARTING OVEr. ****

[billiejean]

ravens will want to keep him for $1.1M- he can't block that well - definitely not like vontae did- that's why we finished 28th in the league last year in rushing. oz will probably overpay him bc some fans like him - even though he can't block even if he was behind the wheel of a semi truck

"oz will probably overpay him bc some fans like him"
Are you implying that popularity is one of the factors that the FO uses to decide who gets signed and who doesn't.

You're right about the fact that Juice is no Vontae leach, but I don't think he was as bad as people like yourself are making him out to be. The guy was rated as the second best blocking FB in football. He is an above average blocker. He did have a few big misses in the blocking department. The two that stand out most are in the links below.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/videos/videos/NFLN-Dixon-Tackled-In-End-Zone-For-Pats-Safety/4580450e-fce6-44e4-9592-977005698c7a
To be fair in this play there was a communication breakdown on the Oline. Nobody blocked Malcolm Brown. And when Juice is 1 on 1 with a 320lb DT he is going to lose that battle every time.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000721943/Ravens-vs-Giants-highlights
at 5min 50sec

And the handful of plays where he didn't block well, are the plays that you are basing your opinion on. He made a big improvement in his blocking skills this year compared to the last. With all of that said I wouldn't be terribly upset if he signed somewhere else.

[sizzlingdoom]

All of our FAs need ro leave at this point. Should've extended Brandon a long time ago. Hope the Steelers take Peppers in the 1rst, Mitchell+Peppers=TOUCH TIME

[billiejean]

I think he walks and I'm fine with it for 2 reasons. His production can easily be replicated by Boyle in his role and the more important reason is he has Linta for an agent. So knowing enough about Linta, he's going to ask for the sky but in this case won't get it.

The only issue with using Boyle as a FB is his height. At 6'4 defenders will have a better chance at getting under his pads. There have been taller FBs that have been successful in the league. But Boyle is a pretty stiff guy. And because of that it is going to make it tough for him to consistently keep his pad level down. But with the log jam at TE it is certainly worth a try. If he can do it, his versatility could give coaches a little more flexibility when deciding which players to activate on game days.,

[Drinkmore Beer]

Given the number of tight ends on the roster, why not go to a 2 tight-end set that features a good blocker (Gilmore, Boyle) and let Juice go?

[ellicottraven]

4 hours ago, billiejean said:

The only issue with using Boyle as a FB is his height. At 6'4 defenders will have a better chance at getting under his pads. There have been taller FBs that have been successful in the league. But Boyle is a pretty stiff guy. And because of that it is going to make it tough for him to consistently keep his pad level down. But with the log jam at TE it is certainly worth a try. If he can do it, his versatility could give coaches a little more flexibility when deciding which players to activate on game days.,

 That is just a thought. In my view Boyle is the best young blocking TE on our team. If he can block well we can imply that he can adjust his pad level to get underneath rushers. If he can do that it isn't a stretch to think he can train himself to lower his pad levels and clear a path. He is bigger, stronger than Juice and like you rightly said will give our team an option to use him on more snaps without hurting the snap count of the receiving TE.

[OzzieBisciotti]

  6 hours ago, OzzieBisciotti said:

ravens will want to keep him for $1.1M- he can't block that well - definitely not like vontae did- that's why we finished 28th in the league last year in rushing. oz will probably overpay him bc some fans like him - even though he can't block even if he was behind the wheel of a semi truck

"oz will probably overpay him bc some fans like him"
Are you implying that popularity is one of the factors that the FO uses to decide who gets signed and who doesn't.

You're right about the fact that Juice is no Vontae leach, but I don't think he was as bad as people like yourself are making him out to be. The guy was rated as the second best blocking FB in football. He is an above average blocker. He did have a few big misses in the blocking department. The two that stand out most are in the links below.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/videos/videos/NFLN-Dixon-Tackled-In-End-Zone-For-Pats-Safety/4580450e-fce6-44e4-9592-977005698c7a
To be fair in this play there was a communication breakdown on the Oline. Nobody blocked Malcolm Brown. And when Juice is 1 on 1 with a 320lb DT he is going to lose that battle every time.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000721943/Ravens-vs-Giants-highlights
at 5min 50sec

And the handful of plays where he didn't block well, are the plays that you are basing your opinion on. He made a big improvement in his blocking skills this year compared to the last. With all of that said I wouldn't be terribly upset if he signed somewhere else.

He will come back because no one uses full backs any more- we use one, but maybe we should change things up consideirng we were 28th in the league in rushing last year.

[ellicottraven]

Just now, OzzieBisciotti said:

He will come back because no one uses full backs any more- we use one, but maybe we should change things up consideirng we were 28th in the league in rushing last year.

He won't because LInta is his agent and knowing Linta he'll ask to be paid like a RB and that won't happen.

[OzzieBisciotti]

  16 hours ago, FastJoey said:

  17 hours ago, Chuckx999 said:

37 catches, 266 yards, 5 carries, 22 yards, 1 TD. I don't think anyone will mistake him as the next Jim Brown.
Let him walk. Use the money on a tackle/center and/or a CB.

Totally agree. Let him walk. Also, hardly a good lead blocker in the run game. Get a real fullback.

If your definition of being "hardly a good lead blocker" is a guy who comes in 2nd in the league in blocking proficiency, then yea he is "hardly a good lead blocker: That said, I am not opposed to the idea of letting him walk.

Look, the kid is a nice guy and has an interesting name, but the fact is that he can't block- Vontae tried to teach him, but he just doesn't have it in him- although he might have been 'ranked' the #2 fullback in the league (out of 4 fullbacks in the NFL), there's a reason why we ranked 28th in the league for rushing- he's part of the blame.

[OzzieBisciotti]

On the bright side, Juice is not likely to give us bad press like Elam just did- so maybe we keep him around in an effort to try and keep our image clean. I don't know why we keep drafting all these questionable players- Oz thinks he's getting character players but they're really not- I'm not even talking about the two tight ends we have that were busted for PEDs...

[RaRaRavens]

23 minutes ago, OzzieBisciotti said:

He will come back because no one uses full backs any more- we use one, but maybe we should change things up consideirng we were 28th in the league in rushing last year.

Shanahan is very FB oriented coach and now with 49rs he has more than enough to spend on versatile FBs like Juice. At least much more than we'd be willing to. 

[CQ1]

As a SIP Ravens fan (souring in progress), I wouldnt be surprised if we do not resign him. We might as well blame Joes bad knee for that too.

[CQ1]

As a SIP Ravens fan (souring in progress), I wouldnt be surprised if we do not resign him. We might as well blame Joes bad knee for that too.

AND, yes, i am very aware of the phrase "be careful what you wish for". A day does not go by when I do not think of it- and not related to the getting more greedier sport in football. Blah, blah.......
Simply put- The Ravens can stick with Flacco and continue to accept sub par stats from a overpaid QB or they can (eventually) go in another direction. Point blank.....No risk equals no reward. Its that simple. We will go nowhere with Flacco

[OzzieBisciotti]

  1 hour ago, OzzieBisciotti said:

He will come back because no one uses full backs any more- we use one, but maybe we should change things up consideirng we were 28th in the league in rushing last year.

Shanahan is very FB oriented coach and now with 49rs he has more than enough to spend on versatile FBs like Juice. At least much more than we'd be willing to. 

Shanahan obviously doesn't like to run the ball as witnessed in the SB- so maybe this is a match made in heaven bc Juice can't spell block with his harvard degree- nice kid though, he just is overrated.

[jboy19]

Funny thing is there's like 20 teams with 30+ mil in cap space and not that many players worth overpaying. I wouldn't even be surprised if someone tossed him 5 or 6 mil.

[bigcatfrank1]

  13 hours ago, bigcatfrank1 said:

stating the words "overpay for their services" without stating what you think should be paid is quite a bit of a cop out.
I will be specific about my opinion and comment in response, maybe you could too.
KO was not affordable, the Ravens didn't have the cap money to keep him at the "market value" of his position. The Team's cap was tipped out at the 6.7 mil that they paid Wallace and that was after KO had left.
RT Wagner, his market value is estimated at 6.7 million, The Ravens may have offered close to that. He may not get it, or he may get more from a team in dire need. I think that the Ravens could afford 6 million and that is a fair price for a solid 4 year RT.

NT- Williams his estimated NFL value could be as high as 14 Million
the price to franchise a NT in 2017 is 14.3 million. So that is about maximum value for the position. I believe that Ravens could afford 11 Million per year for Williams and that would be a fair value for him.

FB- Juice as the article states the highest paid NFL FB is at 2.5 Million Juice is worth close to that in my opinion. SInce there is not a franchise tag for Full Backs, just RB ( over 10 mil) the guage is set by the competition. Juice is perfect for the Ravens and they could be more creative with him in my opinion.

So if it was regardless of the cap, the Ravens could keep all 3 of them. But the Cap cannot be disregarded, I do not think the Ravens are willing to put 20 million down for all 3 players.
I choose Williams and Juice, let Wagner see if he can get more. If not maybe they capture him for under 6 million.

OK, here's some perspectives with back-of-the-envelope salary cap math (not using my kids' new common core curriculum, which would result in every answer being "42").

Paying LT money for an OG is silly...the Ravens were wise to let KO walk.  As for Wagner, Juice and Williams, the Ravens could "afford" to pay to keep all three, but the opportunity cost would be an inability to sign players for depth at other positions (ILB, OG, C, WR, DB/FS).  The Ravens currently have about $15M in cap space.  Assuming they make a reasonable set of cuts (Watson/Pitta, Doom, Wright, Lewis, maybe Webb, Zuttah, etc.) that would push the number up to about $25M net of dead money.

Ozzie wisely likes to plug holes in the roster in free agency ahead of the draft.  The market price to keep Wager (est. $7M), Williams ($11M - your estimate) and Juice (est. $2.5M) would be over $20M.  That would leave a scant $5M to plug holes at RT/G (depending on where you slot Alex Lewis), center ($1.5M), ILB ($1M), CB ($2M), Edge ($4M) and FS ($1.5M).  Also, don't forget that we will need to sign a backup QB ($2M).  That's about $12M in needs.  

If you believe in Alex Lewis at RT, and Pierce at NG, and that finding quality blocking FB (albeit without Juice's ability to catch the 3-yarder in the flat route) is fairly easy, the Ravens should invest the bulk of their notional $25M cap space in an edge rusher, defensive backfield, ILB and interior O-Line (in that order) in my opinion.  Pay for playmaker positions, and fill-in/draft/develop the rest.  RT, NG, and FB aren't playmaker positions.  Besides, we'll get comp picks to replenish those guys that were drafted in the mid rounds anyway.

Yes your agreement is appreciated, However I didnt say keep Wagner. So adding the average 6 Mil to the 5 mil as you said leaves 11 mil which is near the 12 million we agree is about the "relative" cap space using the players example above.

The original post mentioned getting rid of al 3, I said keep Williams and Juice if they will sign at the amounts discussed, hopefully a little lower.

Its all a money game, I would focus on Williams. Thats my opinion. Some say focus on Wagner and let Williams go. Its a roll of the dice really, it is going to be proven on the field.

I guess my biggest logic is that with Yanda, Stanley, Jenson, and Lewis I feel the O-line is anchored for the next 2-3 years. adding the young talent which by the way the Ravens added 2 young O-line members in the offseason.

The D-line without Williams would rest on 3 year Jernigan, 2 two year Urban, Davis, and 2 one year Pierce and Henry. and if signed Hurst and Guy which if both kept might cost as much as Williams. I think that is the hold out right now. The Ravens cannot afford to let Guy and Hurst go if Williams doesn't sign.

Personally I think the one player that the Ravens should pass on is Zuttah. I think he has trouble in the Ravens scheme. If I were the FO, I would save money at Center and pick up a top Rookie at #2. That's my plan for now and I'm sticking to it. But of course I don't make the decisions, and some might not like that decision.