[News] Why Michael Pierce Is A Key Piece Of Ravens' Free Agency Picture

[BR News]

The Ravens want to keep defensive tackle Brandon Williams. But if they can’t lock him up before he hits the market, and the bids start flowing in, the Ravens will have to decide how well equipped they are to handle his loss. Much of that centers on rising sophomore Michael Pierce.

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[b93333]

Certainly looks like a keeper... and since it's beginning to look like Williams and Wagner may bolt he will be an indispensable part of the DL. Too bad we can't afford him AND Williams.

[The Greek]

very risky to head into next season without a proven d-lineman. pierce showed us a small sample and jernigan ran out of gas but i also understand that we cannot break the bank for him or wagner

[mendii]

The fact that his run stopping grade was higher than Brandon's is surprising. I think that no matter what, Jernigan and Pierce are going to play heavily next season. I think if Brandon leaves in FA, the microscope is really going to get put on Willie Henry.

[bigcatfrank1]

keep Williams

[PersianRaven]

We better get Henry and Davis on the field! Carl Davis and Timmy J need to step it up a notch this season!

[omar586]

Williams is replaceable, pierce showed he can pressure up the middle, Williams is limited when comes to pass-rushing, run D on the other hand Williams excels, davis or that michigen U guy needs to step up.

Edited February 17 by omar586

[jsarrocohome@yahoo.com]

Williams is replaceable, pierce should a lot of pressure up the middle, Williams is limited when comes to pass-rushing, run D on the other hand Williams excels, davis or that michigen U guy needs to step up.

Agree

[jsarrocohome@yahoo.com]

keep Williams

only if the price is right I mean what games did some of you guys watch for Christ sake this guy is good But NOT Great and should make nowhere close to 10 mill a year and with we overpay him we will be set back again I would rather have a top CB or Receiver

[bioLarzen]

Although he, Dixon and Tavon Young all had very promising rookie seasons, there are countless examples why we should all wait until they have their sophomore seasons under their belt. Just look at ZaDarius Smith, who, after a very good rookie season, had a rather pedestrian sophomore season. Which is the real Z? We'll see... Let's hope that all of the three aforementioned rookies turn out to be the real deals - but let's not just take it for granted now.

[Ravenous_Ravens]

Although he, Dixon and Tavon Young all had very promising rookie seasons, there are countless examples why we should all wait until they have their sophomore seasons under their belt. Just look at ZaDarius Smith, who, after a very good rookie season, had a rather pedestrian sophomore season. Which is the real Z? We'll see... Let's hope that all of the three aforementioned rookies turn out to be the real deals - but let's not just take it for granted now.

Well spoken. some success is good, sustained success is best. Tough to move on from a sure thing to a coin flip.

[bigcatfrank1]

  7 hours ago, bigcatfrank1 said:

keep Williams

only if the price is right I mean what games did some of you guys watch for Christ sake this guy is good But NOT Great and should make nowhere close to 10 mill a year and with we overpay him we will be set back again I would rather have a top CB or Receiver

I watched every game, no one played as well as Willams. Sure The Ravens young guys did a good job, however big guys cannot play all the downs no matter who they are. So your point is you would rather give up first downs, control of the ball and possibly multiple scores.

No one is arguing getting a CB, It can be done but lets stay in contention.

Williams shut down run games, he has the capability of playing some pass however its not his best suit. The Ravens have no veteran DL if Williams goes. I believe he is an anchor of the team. He is a leader on and off the field.

I would give up Zuttah and Dumervil for Williams any day of the week.
I would risk a Rookie Center or developing a replacement, than a weakened DL. The LB crew will be fine without Doom.

As far as a WR, the Ravens can afford one with the loss of SSr.

I argue that the Ravens have the space to keep Williams. If you are saying you don't want him, that is just something that we disagree on.

[ellicottraven]

All of last year, when Pierce was on the field, our defense looked impenetrable for the run. He is more talented than Williams is at rushing the passer. I think he is just as strong as Williams but needs to improve his conditioning this off season. I think we don't counter Williams if he gets more than we believe he is worth. Pierce, Davis and Henry will more than adequately make up for his loss. My concerns are Lawrence Guy (a must sign) and Juice (a must sign). As for Wagner, he's already rejected our first offer, so he isn't coming back. We just have to sign a tackle in the draft or a guard and push Alex Lewis to RT. Let him walk as well.
Cut Watson, Webb, Wright, Arrington immediately. I am of the opinion that we need to keep Wallace and Doom because we'll be saving 5M and 6M respectively on the cap and I don't think you bring in comparable players at those prices. Why bother with accumulating dead money?

[TheConquerorWorm]

  6 hours ago, jsarrocohome@yahoo.com said:

  8 hours ago, bigcatfrank1 said:

keep Williams

only if the price is right I mean what games did some of you guys watch for Christ sake this guy is good But NOT Great and should make nowhere close to 10 mill a year and with we overpay him we will be set back again I would rather have a top CB or Receiver

I watched every game, no one played as well as Willams. Sure The Ravens young guys did a good job, however big guys cannot play all the downs no matter who they are. So your point is you would rather give up first downs, control of the ball and possibly multiple scores.

No one is arguing getting a CB, It can be done but lets stay in contention.

Williams shut down run games, he has the capability of playing some pass however its not his best suit. The Ravens have no veteran DL if Williams goes. I believe he is an anchor of the team. He is a leader on and off the field.

I would give up Zuttah and Dumervil for Williams any day of the week.
I would risk a Rookie Center or developing a replacement, than a weakened DL. The LB crew will be fine without Doom.

As far as a WR, the Ravens can afford one with the loss of SSr.

I argue that the Ravens have the space to keep Williams. If you are saying you don't want him, that is just something that we disagree on.

I agree 100%. And getting a "top CB or WR" means $12 million+. Garcon wants $9 million & Brandon Marshall (if cut) wants $12 million. That's a lot of cash to pay for an old WR. CB Stephon Gilmore wants $14 million.

Cutting Dumervil, Shareece Wright & Kyle Arrington gets you the money to sign Williams ($10 million+). You're going to replace Wright with a CB in the draft anyway. Same with Arrington.

Cutting Watson & Kendrick Lewis gets you most of the money to resign Wagner. All 5 of those guys have in house replacements. And more importantly, your entire O-line stays intact (Ravens were 4-0 last year when they all started together).

If you didn't cut anyone else, you'd still have about $9 million to go out and get a veteran WR/CB/ILB. Add in at least 1 maybe 2 top CB in the draft and this defense looks infinitely better - BWill, Pierce, Suggs, Judon, Mosley, Peanut, Weddle, Webb, Jimmy, Tavon, Draft CB, Draft CB, Draft S. Still have Kaufusi, KC, Davis, Henry, ZaDarius, Canady waiting in the wings.....That's a Top 5 defense.

[sizzlingdoom]

Who knows if W&W resign. They might simply both want to leave and neither is getting tagged.
It might not make a ton of sense to some people to bring in Campbell. But does he look like a Raven or what? Not to mention he's be a great replacement for Timmy after next year. He's 6'8, knocks down a ton of passes, is great against the run, and gets pressure and sacks from the DE/DT spot. He's also insanely consistent. As well as a bigtime leader.
What better way to support Pierce as our starting NT, than by having Timmy, Campbell, Davis, Henry, and Urban around him. Not to mention we could add another huge run stuffing NT in the later rounds or after the draft. Pierce is a monster and he's hungry. He'll work on his conditioning this offseason and be ready to take more on next year no doubt. What a rookie year. This guy has the potential to be a top 3 NT in this league easy. Some people think he's way behind BWill. I disagree. He did what was asked of him last year and more. He's ready. Gotta start somewhere. How many undrafted NTs would come in and play as much as he did, with a BWill in front of him. Give him the reigns. I love Bwill but would rather spend that 10 mil on something else. Maybe Marshall for Joe and our offense. And he probably won't even cost 10 a year. Especially if we trade for him right now!

[sizzlingdoom]

Although he, Dixon and Tavon Young all had very promising rookie seasons, there are countless examples why we should all wait until they have their sophomore seasons under their belt. Just look at ZaDarius Smith, who, after a very good rookie season, had a rather pedestrian sophomore season. Which is the real Z? We'll see... Let's hope that all of the three aforementioned rookies turn out to be the real deals - but let's not just take it for granted now.

I hear what you're saying. But I'm not sure anyone quite fell in love with Z the way a lot have with these 3. Even with Z's sacks, it seemed like a lot were coverage sacks, not off of talent as much. I do think he's a much much more talented version of Upshaw though for the most part.
I hear you, and I may be wrong, but I think Pierce, tavon, and Dixon are all the real deal. For sure. So stoked on all of them.
I think they can all eventually make the pro bowl. Probably not by next year, but who knows. Can't imagine how much better this franchise would of got if we did as well in rounds 2 and 3 as we did in the rest of the draft for the most part. Instead we might have another couple of serious whiffs on our hands. Zero production from them after year 1. We'll find out a ton about them this year

[sizzlingdoom]

  2 hours ago, bigcatfrank1 said:

  7 hours ago, jsarrocohome@yahoo.com said:

  9 hours ago, bigcatfrank1 said:

keep Williams

only if the price is right I mean what games did some of you guys watch for Christ sake this guy is good But NOT Great and should make nowhere close to 10 mill a year and with we overpay him we will be set back again I would rather have a top CB or Receiver

I watched every game, no one played as well as Willams. Sure The Ravens young guys did a good job, however big guys cannot play all the downs no matter who they are. So your point is you would rather give up first downs, control of the ball and possibly multiple scores.

No one is arguing getting a CB, It can be done but lets stay in contention.

Williams shut down run games, he has the capability of playing some pass however its not his best suit. The Ravens have no veteran DL if Williams goes. I believe he is an anchor of the team. He is a leader on and off the field.

I would give up Zuttah and Dumervil for Williams any day of the week.
I would risk a Rookie Center or developing a replacement, than a weakened DL. The LB crew will be fine without Doom.

As far as a WR, the Ravens can afford one with the loss of SSr.

I argue that the Ravens have the space to keep Williams. If you are saying you don't want him, that is just something that we disagree on.

I agree 100%. And getting a "top CB or WR" means $12 million+. Garcon wants $9 million & Brandon Marshall (if cut) wants $12 million. That's a lot of cash to pay for an old WR. CB Stephon Gilmore wants $14 million.

Cutting Dumervil, Shareece Wright & Kyle Arrington gets you the money to sign Williams ($10 million+). You're going to replace Wright with a CB in the draft anyway. Same with Arrington.

Cutting Watson & Kendrick Lewis gets you most of the money to resign Wagner. All 5 of those guys have in house replacements. And more importantly, your entire O-line stays intact (Ravens were 4-0 last year when they all started together).

If you didn't cut anyone else, you'd still have about $9 million to go out and get a veteran WR/CB/ILB. Add in at least 1 maybe 2 top CB in the draft and this defense looks infinitely better - BWill, Pierce, Suggs, Judon, Mosley, Peanut, Weddle, Webb, Jimmy, Tavon, Draft CB, Draft CB, Draft S. Still have Kaufusi, KC, Davis, Henry, ZaDarius, Canady waiting in the wings.....That's a Top 5 defense.

How are you suggesting we score then? Especially after our offense was Disgusting last year and we lost our best offensive player.
Kenny Britt? lol

[utalkingtome123]

In a perfect world us signing Tony Jefferson and Stephon Gilmore in free agency would be nice. Then pair them with a receiver and corner from the draft and I would be a happy ravens fan for the offseason.

[sizzlingdoom]

In a perfect world us signing Tony Jefferson and Stephon Gilmore in free agency would be nice. Then pair them with a receiver and corner from the draft and I would be a happy ravens fan for the offseason.

Looks like they're both going to get a ton of money. I think someone is going to unload a ton of money on Jefferson, which is ridiculous. The guy has 2 picks in 63 career games. I am a fan of Gilmore, and it would be excellent to sign him. But if he's asking for Josh Norman money, that might be tough. I'm starting to think Trumaine Johnson might be a better investment. He'll be cheaper, and he might actually be better. They came into the league at the same time, yet Johnson has played in more games and has more picks. Plus it doesn't look like he'll get tagged. I think trading for Marshall and signing Johnson would make this team way better, and not only for next year. Not to mention signing Johnson would give us a lot more flexibility in the draft. That way, instead of having to take a corner in round 1, maybe we could move up a few spots and grab Mike Williams or Fournette. So many different ways to go about things.

[billiejean]

The fact that his run stopping grade was higher than Brandon's is surprising. I think that no matter what, Jernigan and Pierce are going to play heavily next season. I think if Brandon leaves in FA, the microscope is really going to get put on Willie Henry.

dont forget about carls jr. We ill prob draft a guy too

[billiejean]

9 hours ago, bioLarzen said:

Although he, Dixon and Tavon Young all had very promising rookie seasons, there are countless examples why we should all wait until they have their sophomore seasons under their belt. Just look at ZaDarius Smith, who, after a very good rookie season, had a rather pedestrian sophomore season. Which is the real Z? We'll see... Let's hope that all of the three aforementioned rookies turn out to be the real deals - but let's not just take it for granted now.

I dont think he had a good rookie season. He had a lot more playing time a year ago but there wasn't anything above average about his performance. A lot of his sacks were manufactured with stunts. He played better against the run this year but not well enough. He needs to work on pass rushing moves. Clearly, I wasn't able to watch him on all of the plays that he played in this year but when I was the only move that he utilized was the bullrush.  Regardless of that I agree that expectations should be tempered for second year guys.

Edited February 18 by billiejean

[billiejean]

  9 hours ago, bioLarzen said:

Although he, Dixon and Tavon Young all had very promising rookie seasons, there are countless examples why we should all wait until they have their sophomore seasons under their belt. Just look at ZaDarius Smith, who, after a very good rookie season, had a rather pedestrian sophomore season. Which is the real Z? We'll see... Let's hope that all of the three aforementioned rookies turn out to be the real deals - but let's not just take it for granted now.

I hear what you're saying. But I'm not sure anyone quite fell in love with Z the way a lot have with these 3. Even with Z's sacks, it seemed like a lot were coverage sacks, not off of talent as much. I do think he's a much much more talented version of Upshaw though for the most part.
I hear you, and I may be wrong, but I think Pierce, tavon, and Dixon are all the real deal. For sure. So stoked on all of them.
I think they can all eventually make the pro bowl. Probably not by next year, but who knows. Can't imagine how much better this franchise would of got if we did as well in rounds 2 and 3 as we did in the rest of the draft for the most part. Instead we might have another couple of serious whiffs on our hands. Zero production from them after year 1. We'll find out a ton about them this year

Im with you there. Hopefully Z can put something together with two years under his belt. I wouldn't say he was much more talented than Upshaw though. Upshaw was really good at stopping the run and Z isn't really good at anything as of yet. The problem with Upshaw was that his mobility decreased with each season. He made a lot of really good plays in his rookie year because of his tenacity which also seemed to decline as the years past. I looked at his rookie highlights a few months ago and he looked like a totally different player. Obviously youre not getting the whole picture by looking at highlights but he looked so much faster than he was the last three seasons he played for us. But when you come into camp at 295 and youre supposed to be 270 a decline in performance should be expected.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aWjjH_ZYtE

[JoeyFlex5]

10 hours ago, bioLarzen said:

Although he, Dixon and Tavon Young all had very promising rookie seasons, there are countless examples why we should all wait until they have their sophomore seasons under their belt. Just look at ZaDarius Smith, who, after a very good rookie season, had a rather pedestrian sophomore season. Which is the real Z? We'll see... Let's hope that all of the three aforementioned rookies turn out to be the real deals - but let's not just take it for granted now.

nothing about ZDS's rookie season actually LOOKED good though. the old saying "numbers dont lie" is in fact, a lie. 6 sacks could just mean the qb had to hold the ball way too long, it could mean a blown blocking assignment, it could mean a ton of things that dont necessarily equate to a pass rusher doing his job at a high level. 

all of Z's rookie sacks were exactly those things, i dont think he had a single sack that was a result of him making a great play. 

its pretty easy to see the difference between pierce straight up putting the moves on guys up the middle and having a great combination of quickness and strength that he used to win matchups, he wasnt just making plays on poorly executed blocks. 

but overall, i do agree, you cant have blind faith after a good rookie year. just saying pierce looked like he flat out made better plays as a rookie than ZDS did.

[sizzlingdoom]

  3 hours ago, sizzlingdoom said:

  11 hours ago, bioLarzen said:

Although he, Dixon and Tavon Young all had very promising rookie seasons, there are countless examples why we should all wait until they have their sophomore seasons under their belt. Just look at ZaDarius Smith, who, after a very good rookie season, had a rather pedestrian sophomore season. Which is the real Z? We'll see... Let's hope that all of the three aforementioned rookies turn out to be the real deals - but let's not just take it for granted now.

I hear what you're saying. But I'm not sure anyone quite fell in love with Z the way a lot have with these 3. Even with Z's sacks, it seemed like a lot were coverage sacks, not off of talent as much. I do think he's a much much more talented version of Upshaw though for the most part.
I hear you, and I may be wrong, but I think Pierce, tavon, and Dixon are all the real deal. For sure. So stoked on all of them.
I think they can all eventually make the pro bowl. Probably not by next year, but who knows. Can't imagine how much better this franchise would of got if we did as well in rounds 2 and 3 as we did in the rest of the draft for the most part. Instead we might have another couple of serious whiffs on our hands. Zero production from them after year 1. We'll find out a ton about them this year

Im with you there. Hopefully Z can put something together with two years under his belt. I wouldn't say he was much more talented than Upshaw though. Upshaw was really good at stopping the run and Z isn't really good at anything as of yet. The problem with Upshaw was that his mobility decreased with each season. He made a lot of really good plays in his rookie year because of his tenacity which also seemed to decline as the years past. I looked at his rookie highlights a few months ago and he looked like a totally different player. Obviously youre not getting the whole picture by looking at highlights but he looked so much faster than he was the last three seasons he played for us. But when you come into camp at 295 and youre supposed to be 270 a decline in performance should be expected.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aWjjH_ZYtE

Wow, you're right about Upshaw and those highlights. Definitely faster, quicker, and lighter in his rookie year. I hardly recognized him. So glad we didn't resign him last year. You're right, if he was hungry, determined, and wanted to play his best, he'd come into camp at 265, not 295. I don't know what's gonna happen with Z. Seems like he has potential, but I think the fans have heard that word enough in recent years LOL I think we have so much talent up front between everyone. I think the pass rush comes alive this year. If we would just invest in a #1 corner via FA or the draft, this defense can easily sit in the top 3 all year. As long as our DC doesn't PREVENT that from happening

[jsarrocohome@yahoo.com]

  12 hours ago, jsarrocohome@yahoo.com said:

  14 hours ago, bigcatfrank1 said:

keep Williams

only if the price is right I mean what games did some of you guys watch for Christ sake this guy is good But NOT Great and should make nowhere close to 10 mill a year and with we overpay him we will be set back again I would rather have a top CB or Receiver

I watched every game, no one played as well as Willams. Sure The Ravens young guys did a good job, however big guys cannot play all the downs no matter who they are. So your point is you would rather give up first downs, control of the ball and possibly multiple scores.

No one is arguing getting a CB, It can be done but lets stay in contention.

Williams shut down run games, he has the capability of playing some pass however its not his best suit. The Ravens have no veteran DL if Williams goes. I believe he is an anchor of the team. He is a leader on and off the field.

I would give up Zuttah and Dumervil for Williams any day of the week.
I would risk a Rookie Center or developing a replacement, than a weakened DL. The LB crew will be fine without Doom.

As far as a WR, the Ravens can afford one with the loss of SSr.

I argue that the Ravens have the space to keep Williams. If you are saying you don't want him, that is just something that we disagree on.

Then you didn't watch close enough Williams took plays off missed to many tackles for my liking and at times in 1 on 1 match ups gets manhandled 1 game in particular I saw a guy with 1 arm throw Williams to the ground like a rag doll maybe raiders or dallas game also B marshall I would not want he's not getting anywhere near 10 mill a year and garcon is not worth 9 mill a year that being said smarter to spend more on a WR than a guy who is just ok bye the way name 1 just 1 game Williams ever Dominated you Can't because he NEVER has that's why he's not worth the money I agree with you to a point I still would like to keep him but not overpay for him as I said before he's good just not a game changer

[billiejean]

1 hour ago, sizzlingdoom said:

Wow, you're right about Upshaw and those highlights. Definitely faster, quicker, and lighter in his rookie year. I hardly recognized him. So glad we didn't resign him last year. You're right, if he was hungry, determined, and wanted to play his best, he'd come into camp at 265, not 295. I don't know what's gonna happen with Z. Seems like he has potential, but I think the fans have heard that word enough in recent years LOL I think we have so much talent up front between everyone. I think the pass rush comes alive this year. If we would just invest in a #1 corner via FA or the draft, this defense can easily sit in the top 3 all year. As long as our DC doesn't PREVENT that from happening

Totally different dude out there.  Running down plays from the back side, staying home on counters (which is impressive for a rookie), and just getting after it until the whistle is blown.  He made a lot of clutch plays for us that year both in the regular season and playoffs.  I don't think he could have made a lot of those stops in his second year.  I think the forced fumble that he caused (Lamichael James) in the superbowl embodies what kind of player he was in his rookie year.  The guy dives to make a tackle in the back field and misses, he gets up and lays a brutal hit on James causing the fumble.  That was big.  I certainly wouldn't classify the guy as a bust but he didn't live up to expectations.  Im sure the FO thought he would be a bigger factor in the pass game. I mean the guy had 16.5 sacks in his last two years at Bama.  But he did fill Jared Johnsons spot (feel bad for JJ leaving just before the superbowl, that dude was a Raven through and through) I am hopeful for Z though. I think hes probably a bit more flexible than Upshaw and just needs to work on some technique things.  But if he doesn't work out we could alway resign Arthur Brown and move him to OLB. ( ;

[sizzlingdoom]

  1 hour ago, sizzlingdoom said:

Wow, you're right about Upshaw and those highlights. Definitely faster, quicker, and lighter in his rookie year. I hardly recognized him. So glad we didn't resign him last year. You're right, if he was hungry, determined, and wanted to play his best, he'd come into camp at 265, not 295. I don't know what's gonna happen with Z. Seems like he has potential, but I think the fans have heard that word enough in recent years LOL I think we have so much talent up front between everyone. I think the pass rush comes alive this year. If we would just invest in a #1 corner via FA or the draft, this defense can easily sit in the top 3 all year. As long as our DC doesn't PREVENT that from happening

Totally different dude out there.  Running down plays from the back side, staying home on counters (which is impressive for a rookie), and just getting after it until the whistle is blown.  He made a lot of clutch plays for us that year both in the regular season and playoffs.  I don't think he could have made a lot of those stops in his second year.  I think the forced fumble that he caused (Lamichael James) in the superbowl embodies what kind of player he was in his rookie year.  The guy dives to make a tackle in the back field and misses, he gets up and lays a brutal hit on James causing the fumble.  That was big.  I certainly wouldn't classify the guy as a bust but he didn't live up to expectations.  Im sure the FO thought he would be a bigger factor in the pass game. I mean the guy had 16.5 sacks in his last two years at Bama.  But he did fill Jared Johnsons spot (feel bad for JJ leaving just before the superbowl, that dude was a Raven through and through) I am hopeful for Z though. I think hes probably a bit more flexible than Upshaw and just needs to work on some technique things.  But if he doesn't work out we could alway resign Arthur Brown and move him to OLB. ( ;

Exactly. Running down Charles from the backside....yeah, OK Upshaw. Lol. Touche about AB. You're points about Z is exactly what I was thinking. This year is going to tell so much about so many players and coaches, not to mention there a lot of moves to be made this off season. Should be very interesting. As long as we don't make anymore Elam/AB/KC picks, we should be headed back in the right direction. We HAVE to get a stud, or 2 in the first round. Jamal Adams is a Raven. Make it happen FO

[whobilly]

Translated....Williams is going to hit the FA market and sign with the team that offers him the most money. Real simple.

[sizzlingdoom]

Translated....Williams is going to hit the FA market and sign with the team that offers him the most money. Real simple.

From his perspective he might as well. He can basically pick where he wants to live in the U.S. and what team he wants to play for. He going to make tons no matter what. Even if he chooses a "contender", there are a number of teams that made the playoffs last year that'll offer him more money than us no doubt. I think the only reason he would stay is if he's super comfortable with his surroundings and absolutely loves Baltimore. We'll see. I bet him and Wagner both leave. In that case I hope we don't resign any of ours free agents, not to mention there are so many cuts to be made. We should have $$$, even with Joe's contract

[Chuckx999]

We would like to have kept a lot of people the past 5 years. CAP SPACE is the name of the game and we have nothing left after paying "old 3 and out Flacco" the mother load. So we will just have to be happy with 8 and 8 seasons until Flacco and about 3 other OLD GUYS are gone. Maybe 2020 could be a playoff year.