2017 NFL Combine

[hn68wb4]

3 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

tabor running a 4.61 may finally put to bed his hype. his film sucks, he sucks, and nobody wants a corner running a 4.6. 

shocked that jourdan lewis ran in the 4.5s, he looks like a supreme athlete on film. also surprised that sidney jones was in the 4.7s, i really thought he was gonna be in the mid 4.5s and fall a bit in the draft. 

Jones was in the 4.4s...

[jazz1988]

1 minute ago, hn68wb4 said:

I'm expecting Quincy Wilson to be a little slow too based on how often he gets beat deep - at least that's what i saw when watching him. Literally everytime the guy he was 1 on 1 with went deep Wilson was beat. Maybe that has more to do with his aggressiveness but I think his speed also has something to do with it.

Well he just had a unofficial time 4.56 which isn't bad

[raven94]

So you think that'll drop him? He did look good in drills afterall

[hn68wb4]

Just now, jazz1988 said:

Well he just had a unofficial time 4.56 which isn't bad

Yeah, it's not a bad time for a guy his size, not amazing and doesn't put to bed my questions about his deep coverage, but could certainly be worse

[JoeyFlex5]

25 minutes ago, hn68wb4 said:

Jones was in the 4.4s...

I know I meant to say 4.47 but I said 4.7s for some reason lol

[JoeyFlex5]

27 minutes ago, hn68wb4 said:

I'm expecting Quincy Wilson to be a little slow too based on how often he gets beat deep - at least that's what i saw when watching him. Literally everytime the guy he was 1 on 1 with went deep Wilson was beat. Maybe that has more to do with his aggressiveness but I think his speed also has something to do with it.

Quincy gets beat deep more because of his reckless press than his speed. He's fluid and has length to make him less susceptible even when he lags behind a little. His press though is uncontrolled, he plants both feet and punches at the wr and he doesn't always win

[Italian Raven]

I keep reading about Barnett being linked with the word "bend" and I´m not sure I can agree.
I think there´s a substantial difference between shoulder dip and bend and the former in unquestionable but I do have doubts on the latter.
 

If you look at these pics maybe you´ll see what I mean.


Although Lawson doesn´t possess the best bend in the class he does have a nice one.
After the initial burst off the LOS he gains the edge and, as soon as the RT makes contact with him he has the left foot planted in the ground and doesn´t get push off the arch. He rather maintains the hips toward the QB and is able to continue along his designed lane. Shoulders are parallel to the ground because he has total control of his position.



Here you clearly see the difference.
Left foot (while it should´ve been the right one), and (left) shoulder dip (not parallel to the ground).
The problem I have with the dip is that you´re not 100% on balance and if the T times the snap well he doesn´t need much to push you off the play and create a big whole on that side of the ball.


Now, I don´t think that takes anything away from Barnett´s talent. I´d still like him at 16. I only think that a good snap timing paired with a good bend (if my distinction between the two things is correct) is more effective than a good snap timing and a shoulder dip (which, if it failes, might cause a scrambling QB to find easy holes). 

[rossihunter2]

so from today so far, i never thought the combine would affect the way i feel about some of these dbs so much, not just how fast they run but the running styles as well, i cant wait for this last group to go through the drills to see them flip their hips, conley is a big winner today, melifonwu and moreau as well, lattimore and jones i think have confirmed their spots for me also

[JoeyFlex5]

16 minutes ago, Italian Raven said:

I keep reading about Barnett being linked with the word "bend" and I´m not sure I can agree.
I think there´s a substantial difference between shoulder dip and bend and the former in unquestionable but I do have doubts on the latter.
 

If you look at these pics maybe you´ll see what I mean.


Although Lawson doesn´t possess the best bend in the class he does have a nice one.
After the initial burst off the LOS he gains the edge and, as soon as the RT makes contact with him he has the left foot planted in the ground and doesn´t get push off the arch. He rather maintains the hips toward the QB and is able to continue along his designed lane. Shoulders are parallel to the ground because he has total control of his position.



Here you clearly see the difference.
Left foot (while it should´ve been the right one), and (left) shoulder dip (not parallel to the ground).
The problem I have with the dip is that you´re not 100% on balance and if the T times the snap well he doesn´t need much to push you off the play and create a big whole on that side of the ball.


Now, I don´t think that takes anything away from Barnett´s talent. I´d still like him at 16. I only think that a good snap timing paired with a good bend (if my distinction between the two things is correct) is more effective than a good snap timing and a shoulder dip (which, if it failes, might cause a scrambling QB to find easy holes). 

Barnett plays at a sharper angle of lean than anyone in the class by a long shot. You can't get low to shorten the edge without a shoulder dip so I'm not sure what you're getting at by saying we're confusing one with the other, shoulder dip is a part of lean. 

When Barnett gets just one step on the tackle, he capitalizes instantly by dropping his shoulders and taking a hard lean into the pocket, he does it consistently. 

I know you want everyone to see Lawson in the same light that you do but you won't do it by reaching to downplay Barnett

[JoeyFlex5]

13 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

so from today so far, i never thought the combine would affect the way i feel about some of these dbs so much, not just how fast they run but the running styles as well, i cant wait for this last group to go through the drills to see them flip their hips, conley is a big winner today, melifonwu and moreau as well, lattimore and jones i think have confirmed their spots for me also

I thought much higher of jourdan Lewis before the combine. I honestly expected a high 4.4s range from him since he he looks like a stud athlete on tape who just needs refinement, running in the 4.5s basically takes what I thought was his saving grace and saying "lolnvm"

[rossihunter2]

teez and tankersley just had really ungainly hip flips in this latest drill

[rossihunter2]

13 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I thought much higher of jourdan Lewis before the combine. I honestly expected a high 4.4s range from him since he he looks like a stud athlete on tape who just needs refinement, running in the 4.5s basically takes what I thought was his saving grace and saying "lolnvm"

lewis just looked really fluid running the centre fielder hip-flip drill though - he looks so natural as a nickel corner

also its crazy how many of these top dbs played with each other last year:

teez, and wilson

adams, white

hooker, lattimore, conley

jones, k king, budda baker

lewis, peppers

you could even argue humphrey and jackson (albeit jackson is injured and didn't play the second half of the season)

[Italian Raven]

10 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Barnett plays at a sharper angle of lean than anyone in the class by a long shot. You can't get low to shorten the edge without a shoulder dip so I'm not sure what you're getting at by saying we're confusing one with the other, shoulder dip is a part of lean. 

When Barnett gets just one step on the tackle, he capitalizes instantly by dropping his shoulders and taking a hard lean into the pocket, he does it consistently. 

I know you want everyone to see Lawson in the same light that you do but you won't do it by reaching to downplay Barnett

The only reason it was Laws again is that I didn't have enough bends screenshots.. I've been reviewing those that are capable of being picked with our first 3 picks (so Garrett and low school guys with few or no tapes excluded) and have to admit that I didn't find a good sample size. Price is the only one I can recall with a low pad level and good bend. Rivers had a pretty good showing as well.

However, as I wrote in the end of my precedent comment, my interpretation of dip and bend doesn't take anything away from Barnett.. He's a top 15 talent in this class which is quite impressive already and I like him better than guys like Bosa and Taco. So really.. Not trying to throw sheesh at him while pumping my guy up. Lawson himself has an average bend imo. 

It's purely coincidental.

And it can also very well be that I'm being nitpicking here. I just noticed some differences while watching tapes and wanted to share my POV with you. 

[JoeyFlex5]

1 minute ago, rossihunter2 said:

lewis just looked really fluid running the centre fielder hip-flip drill though - he looks so natural as a nickel corner

also its crazy how many of these top dbs played with each other last year:

teez, and wilson

adams, white

hooker, lattimore, conley

jones, k king, budda baker

lewis, peppers

you could even argue humphrey and jackson (albeit jackson is injured and didn't play the second half of the season)

I'm just looking at numbers so o haven't seen any actual video

[JoeyFlex5]

1 minute ago, Italian Raven said:

The only reason it was Laws again is that I didn't have enough bends screenshots.. I've been reviewing those that are capable of being picked with our first 3 picks (so Garrett and low school guys with few or no tapes excluded) and have to admit that I didn't find a good sample size. Price is the only one I can recall with a low pad level and good bend. Rivers had a pretty good showing as well.

However, as I wrote in the end of my precedent comment, my interpretation of dip and bend doesn't take anything away from Barnett.. He's a top 15 talent in this class which is quite impressive already and I like him better than guys like Bosa and Taco. So really.. Not trying to throw sheesh at him while pumping my guy up. Lawson himself has an average bend imo. 

It's purely coincidental.

And it can also very well be that I'm being nitpicking here. I just noticed some differences while watching tapes and wanted to share my POV with you. 

Ahh ok, all makes sense lol. I know you're a big Lawson guy and you seem frustrated at times that nobody seems to be on board so I thought you were throwing shade lol. 

What are your thoughts on reddicks bend? I think he's got one of the better bends in the class and being 6'1 with long arms he should be able to go untouched with his bend.

[rossihunter2]

2 minutes ago, Italian Raven said:

The only reason it was Laws again is that I didn't have enough bends screenshots.. I've been reviewing those that are capable of being picked with our first 3 picks (so Garrett and low school guys with few or no tapes excluded) and have to admit that I didn't find a good sample size. Price is the only one I can recall with a low pad level and good bend. Rivers had a pretty good showing as well.

However, as I wrote in the end of my precedent comment, my interpretation of dip and bend doesn't take anything away from Barnett.. He's a top 15 talent in this class which is quite impressive already and I like him better than guys like Bosa and Taco. So really.. Not trying to throw sheesh at him while pumping my guy up. Lawson himself has an average bend imo. 

It's purely coincidental.

And it can also very well be that I'm being nitpicking here. I just noticed some differences while watching tapes and wanted to share my POV with you. 

i think the thing is, barnett bends so early that he has to get his shoulder level so low to dip under the tackle because he's forcing the edge earlier than most guys because he knows he can - and yet he somehow maintains balance, it's all the more impressive given he's not a pure athlete so his technique and balance has to be so much more refined to be able to pull of a move like that so consistently

i do like lawson a lot, just less than barnett and williams, and maybe harris as well

[JoeyFlex5]

13 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

i think the thing is, barnett bends so early that he has to get his shoulder level so low to dip under the tackle because he's forcing the edge earlier than most guys because he knows he can - and yet he somehow maintains balance, it's all the more impressive given he's not a pure athlete so his technique and balance has to be so much more refined to be able to pull of a move like that so consistently

i do like lawson a lot, just less than barnett and williams, and maybe harris as well

This nails it. A step to Barnett is like blood in the water, he gets the smallest advantage on the tackle and decisively lowers his shoulder and bends right then and there, he doesn't wait to set up the bend with his hands or feet, he forces the issue instantly because he does it so well, it's an ability that most edge rushers don't have, the one edge rusher that comes to mind is Demarcus ware, this is the exact trait that made him the top rusher for so many years. And the best thing about this is that Barnett isn't waiting for the tackle to make a bad step, Barnett uses his hands and stutter steps to give himself that extra step, something that is reminiscent of Terrell Suggs. He is the cleanest edge rushing prospect in recent memory, refinement and pursuit like bosa, bend like ware, strength and handfighting like Suggs

[rossihunter2]

9 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

This nails it. A step to Barnett is like blood in the water, he gets the smallest advantage on the tackle and decisively lowers his shoulder and bends right then and there, he doesn't wait to set up the bend with his hands or feet, he forces the issue instantly because he does it so well, it's an ability that most edge rushers don't have, the one edge rusher that comes to mind is Demarcus ware, this is the exact trait that made him the top rusher for so many years. And the best thing about this is that Barnett isn't waiting for the tackle to make a bad step, Barnett uses his hands and stutter steps to give himself that extra step, something that is reminiscent of Terrell Suggs. He is the cleanest edge rushing prospect in recent memory, refinement and pursuit like bosa, bend like ware, strength and handfighting like Suggs

it's over - i've man-crushed on barnett and im gonna be heartbroken if he doesn't fall to us even if it is unlikely

[Italian Raven]

21 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

What are your thoughts on reddicks bend? I think he's got one of the better bends in the class and being 6'1 with long arms he should be able to go untouched with his bend.

My gf ain't home this week so I'll have plenty of time to check a few guys: Melifonwu, A. Jackson, Pocic, Eflein, and Reddick as well. Only few time I dedicated to him was watching the Senior Bowl practices a few times and, just like you all, I was very impressed. Super fluid dropping in coverage and good speed around the edge. Very good athlet. I'll let you know soon. Do you have any specific tape to suggest?

 

25 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

i think the thing is, barnett bends so early that he has to get his shoulder level so low to dip under the tackle because he's forcing the edge earlier than most guys because he knows he can - and yet he somehow maintains balance.

You might be 100% right. Mine is just the fear that, in case we're able to get him, his go to move might be neutralized with relative ease by any pro LT who shows a good, deep kick and has the patience to punch him at the right time. He is a lot more than that anyway so I wouldn't be overly concerned 

[rossihunter2]

1 minute ago, Italian Raven said:

My gf ain't home this week so I'll have plenty of time to check a few guys: Melifonwu, A. Jackson, Pocic, Eflein, and Reddick as well. Only few time I dedicated to him was watching the Senior Bowl practices a few times and, just like you all, I was very impressed. Super fluid dropping in coverage and good speed around the edge. Very good athlet. I'll let you know soon. Do you have any specific tape to suggest?

 

You might be 100% right. Mine is just the fear that, in case we're able to get him, his go to move might be neutralized with relative ease by any pro LT who shows a good, deep kick and has the patience to punch him at the right time. He is a lot more than that anyway so I wouldn't be overly concerned 

the reason i'm not so worried is he's shown the ability to adapt and set up tackles by faking inside, or actually rushing to the inside and keeping the tackle honest, he has enough speed that and burst to challenge that first kick step so that if there isn't perfect balance and weight distribution the tackle's in the weak position - ironically when he has done this he hasn't always taken advantage and moved into a bull-rush move or something, and in terms of tackles getting hands on first and getting a good punch, watch barnett vs cam - now cam doesn't have a great kick but watch him vs myles garrett and you'll see that as soon as cam gets hands on it's pretty much game over in pass protection, so then go back and watch barnett not even let cam lay a hand on him - he just rips those hands off violently

he's shown a willingness to add to his repertoire as well, he tried a couple of spin moves although he didn't rip with his hands so well to set it up properly to beat the tackle to the inside, i think if he can get into a training camp and refine that spin move and really keep up those violent hands he won't have any trouble transferring his skills to nfl tackles - it's not like he's inexplosive, he ran a 4.88 with the flu when guys like taco charlton who was supposed to be more athletic ran slower - if he gets to his pro-day and runs a 4.8 he'll be absolutely fine

i really think he might be the safest prospect in this draft and i dont mean that as a backhanded compliment because i think his ceiling is pretty exceptional too

[ravensnj]

I really like the 2 UConn players, Obi Melifonwu S and Noel Thomas Wr, I hope our scouts are looking at them.

[ravensnj]

18 minutes ago, Italian Raven said:

My gf ain't home this week so I'll have plenty of time to check a few guys: Melifonwu, A. Jackson, Pocic, Eflein, and Reddick as well. Only few time I dedicated to him was watching the Senior Bowl practices a few times and, just like you all, I was very impressed. Super fluid dropping in coverage and good speed around the edge. Very good athlet. I'll let you know soon. Do you have any specific tape to suggest?

 

You might be 100% right. Mine is just the fear that, in case we're able to get him, his go to move might be neutralized with relative ease by any pro LT who shows a good, deep kick and has the patience to punch him at the right time. He is a lot more than that anyway so I wouldn't be overly concerned 

Melifonwu would be a great addition to our secondary.

[rossihunter2]

Just now, ravensnj said:

Melifonwu would be a great addition to our secondary.

he had some freaky athletic figures but he looked a little sluggish in drills - he looked smooth but maybe not like he was letting loose on the hip flips - like he was maybe protecting himself from looking stiff or something - hopefully something that he has to go and do a few times at his pro day

[ellicottraven]

I went into the combine not knowing much about Peppers, Reddick and Humphrey and came away very impressed with each one of those. Reddick to me is going to be a stud LBer with the ability to do damage like Elvis Dumervil but also be great in coverage. He can be a 3 down OLB for us. Humphrey to me is really smooth and fluid and has the ability to play inside and out. Peppers is the X Factor man. He's just a total football player like Weddle. He's going to be an absolute star in the league and I now have no issues if the Ravens went with him at 16 providing of course Charles Harris, Reuben Foster and Mike Williams are all gone. The other guy that really impressed me was Christian McCaffery. He is another great ball player like Peppers on offense. I wouldn't mind taking him by trading a few spots down and adding a couple of picks. This draft is so dang deep, it may be the best play.

[JoeyFlex5]

21 minutes ago, Italian Raven said:

My gf ain't home this week so I'll have plenty of time to check a few guys: Melifonwu, A. Jackson, Pocic, Eflein, and Reddick as well. Only few time I dedicated to him was watching the Senior Bowl practices a few times and, just like you all, I was very impressed. Super fluid dropping in coverage and good speed around the edge. Very good athlet. I'll let you know soon. Do you have any specific tape to suggest?

 

You might be 100% right. Mine is just the fear that, in case we're able to get him, his go to move might be neutralized with relative ease by any pro LT who shows a good, deep kick and has the patience to punch him at the right time. He is a lot more than that anyway so I wouldn't be overly concerned 

He absolutely dominated Memphis, that tape is a lot of fun, his pursuit was out of this world in that game and he just embarrassed the OT

[rossihunter2]

2 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

I went into the combine not knowing much about Peppers, Reddick and Humphrey and came away very impressed with each one of those. Reddick to me is going to be a stud LBer with the ability to do damage like Elvis Dumervil but also be great in coverage. He can be a 3 down OLB for us. Humphrey to me is really smooth and fluid and has the ability to play inside and out. Peppers is the X Factor man. He's just a total football player like Weddle. He's going to be an absolute star in the league and I now have no issues if the Ravens went with him at 16 providing of course Charles Harris, Reuben Foster and Mike Williams are all gone. The other guy that really impressed me was Christian McCaffery. He is another great ball player like Peppers on offense. I wouldn't mind taking him by trading a few spots down and adding a couple of picks. This draft is so dang deep, it may be the best play.

reddick is a talent no doubt but i think he fits best as a 4-3 olb probably in the league just in terms of his physical attributes while his actual skills are pass rushing, i can see him being a great blitzer at the next level and he's got enough speed to be great in coverage, i agree though that the combine improved my feelings about peppers and humphrey - not enough to jump them up like 10 spots, but a few spots on my board to bring them both into the top 30 or so on my board - i still think the tweener thing makes peppers a problem at 16 but if he dropped (which he probably wont now) id love him at 48 because he "could" be a star at the nfl level but i think there's too much risk at 16

[Italian Raven]

23 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

the reason i'm not so worried is he's shown the ability to adapt and set up tackles by faking inside, or actually rushing to the inside and keeping the tackle honest, he has enough speed that and burst to challenge that first kick step so that if there isn't perfect balance and weight distribution the tackle's in the weak position - ironically when he has done this he hasn't always taken advantage and moved into a bull-rush move or something, and in terms of tackles getting hands on first and getting a good punch, watch barnett vs cam - now cam doesn't have a great kick but watch him vs myles garrett and you'll see that as soon as cam gets hands on it's pretty much game over in pass protection, so then go back and watch barnett not even let cam lay a hand on him - he just rips those hands off violently

he's shown a willingness to add to his repertoire as well, he tried a couple of spin moves although he didn't rip with his hands so well to set it up properly to beat the tackle to the inside, i think if he can get into a training camp and refine that spin move and really keep up those violent hands he won't have any trouble transferring his skills to nfl tackles - it's not like he's inexplosive, he ran a 4.88 with the flu when guys like taco charlton who was supposed to be more athletic ran slower - if he gets to his pro-day and runs a 4.8 he'll be absolutely fine

i really think he might be the safest prospect in this draft and i dont mean that as a backhanded compliment because i think his ceiling is pretty exceptional too

Honestly, I didn't expect Taco to be much faster than he showed.. He moves laterally pretty well and has a pretty good first step but I didn't see the explosion or edge speed to make me think he'd post anything better than a 4.8.

As you say Barnett may easily be one of the safest picks. That was my first impression and it is yet unchanged. He may not have an immense cieling (Mack, Miller) but I think he'll make a better pass rusher than Bosa (to name a recent top 5 pick). He has a very nice and natural swim when slicing through the B gap and is a pretty complete edge defender. 

[Italian Raven]

36 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

He absolutely dominated Memphis, that tape is a lot of fun, his pursuit was out of this world in that game and he just embarrassed the OT

Woa.. That tape is something special.

He's so "play" fast, reactive to the ball carrier changing direction. He can also be used in some blitzing packages but he has such a recovery, great chasing angles that it's almost a shame putting him hands to the ground.

I guess he'll be best as a Will or Mike in a 4-3. I'll keep an eye on him but I guess he'll go between the 15-25 picks. Definitely loocked like a 1st round lock there

[allblackraven]

I wonder how much will Melifonwu shoot up the boards after today. I watched just a little bit of his tape and there he appears to play fast and with purpose. We all know what vertical did for Byron Jones. Granted, Jones was mostly viewed as 2nd rounder to borderline 1st but Melifonwu has produced extreme results in all categories and looked really disappointed with 44' vertical.

Schneider and Carroll must be licking their chops.

[JoeyFlex5]

1 minute ago, Italian Raven said:

Woa.. That tape is something special.

He's so "play" fast, reactive to the ball carrier changing direction. He can also be used in some blitzing packages but he has such a recovery, great chasing angles that it's almost a shame putting him hands to the ground.

I guess he'll be best as a Will or Mike in a 4-3. I'll keep an eye on him but I guess he'll go between the 15-25 picks. Definitely loocked like a 1st round lock there

He's got first round tape and 2nd/3rd round size. But I'm of the belief that size doesn't matter if dudes can't touch you, and I think he's one of the edge players that can truly go untouched often. He's a spark plug if I've ever seen one