[News] Eisenberg: We're Asking The Wrong Question About Brandon Williams

[jsarrocohome@yahoo.com]

The Ravens need talent of both sides of the ball. Without B Williams and Orr, the run defense will suffer. Mike Wallace, Webb, Dumervil are not worth losing B. Williams. Ravens need to keep their young good players instead of overpaid players.

No it won't Williams is slightly above average I don't see all the concerns about losing this guy he is not a good Pass rusher and DOSEN'T come up big in big games

[sizzlingdoom]

  3 hours ago, sizzlingdoom said:

Exactly. I agree with you Nevermore. Not to mention he is better than a good pass protector and mediocre run blocker. Pretty sure pff rated him in the top 5 for all tackles multiple times in the past few years. Regardless of how people feel about their ratings, that is Very good. We cannot just let a VERY good Tackle go without having any sort of proven replacement. Especially with how our O performed last year. BWill is a monster and a favorite of mine but if there is a choice between the 2 it has to be Wagner imo. Pierce is a Monster and can essentially take over for BWill. We should have enough Bigs. Where's Carl Davis at? Timmy, Kufasi, Urban. We just drafted Willie Henry. Not saying it's easy to find another BWill, but we could also add another run stuffing NT in the mid to late rounds to all those names. Or hoepfully find another gem like Pierce. Good Olineman are way harder to find and keep. If we sign Wagner, and draft an awesome young mauling Center in the second like Elflein, our line will be a Monster and set for years. People can call me crazy if they want to, but I think Pierce can be just as good of a player as Brandon if not better.

Pierce is certainly a gem but he's not ready to start. Your not crazy at all for thinking Pierce can be as good as Williams or maybe even better. You just excluded the fact that it's a process and at the moment it's not really close. Pierce has some developing to do and heck maybe in 1 year or maybe in 3 years his time will come but until then we need to keep Bwill. By that time, we can trade or release Bwill if Pierce proves he's consistent enough to start.

Also thinking about how it seems like Pierce and Bwill were on the field a lot together. Which is Awesome vs the run no doubt. But seems like we're giving up some pass rush with 2 nose tackles on the field. Especially when we have DE and DT we've invested like Timmy, Kufasi, Carl Davis. There's Urban too. I'm sure we'll draft DE's too, seems like we always do. I want to see something out of Carl Davis. I had high hopes for him when we drafted him.
With the traditional 3 man front in the 3-4 I'd be really happy with this going into next year. As long as the 8-10 missing from BWill is well spent.
Timmy/Pierce/Carl Davis. With Urban, Kufasi, and Willie Henry rotating in. We'll probably add a huge run stuffer in the mid to later rounds or a cheap FA.
I think spending 10 mil on a NT is crazy. Especially with other holes we have. And Pierce is a great example of why it's not necessary to spend huge or draft high on someone that's essentially only around to stuff the run.

[sizzlingdoom]

Interesting to think about if we didn't resign any of our free agents. I think Wagner is the only one we should consider.
I know everyone has their preference, but I would probably cut:
-Doom
-Wallace
-Pitta
-Watson
-Arrington
-K.Lewis
-Webb
-Wright
-Zuttah (hopefully trade him)

If a site is right that frees up 33 Million in cap space!!! Not to mention it's be great to add a little to that if Flacco restructured at all.
That means we really can go after whoever we want. Hope KC pissed off Berry so much he leaves.
I think Stephone Gilmore and Marshall (through trade or FA) have to be our top targets.
If we did cut all those names above, the only positions to fill from the moves would be
wr-Marshall
Safety- Cyprien would be Awesome at SS- Weddle to FS
Corner-Gilmore, or Trumaine Johnson
Center- I'm hoping for Elflein in round 2
We already need a pass rusher. Round 3 maybe. Or round 1 if we grab Gilmore and there's a stud at 16. Solomon Thomas would be awesome
Though I doubt we'll make that many cuts, this should be an interesting offseason

[B-More all dai]

I don't think this is as complicated as people are making it out to be.

Reasons for letting him walk.
-most likely a 3rd round comp pick next year
-capable backup at a fraction of cost
-contract doesn't act as a strangle hold for not only this season but for the life of the contract (see flacco).
--And in connection to the last point, there is more money to spend on positions of need where we don't have as much of a capable backup like (WR, CB, OLB).
-Now I know the past is not an absolute predictor of the future, but if there is one position that it seems ozzie is good at drafting gems it is the interior line.

Reasons to keep him
-Top 5 player at his position.
-Keep a cornerstone of the defense while it seems most other areas are in a state of flux.

It seems the let go of him side wins this argument.

-Another way to look at it is through a potential example.
Would you rather have Williams and Pierce or Pierce and lets say Brandon Marshal (who could be a cap casualty that won't count against the comp draft formula) or for that matter any position of need CB/OLB who would probably be in the same price range 8-10 million as Williams.

[Halshayeji]

1 hour ago, sizzlingdoom said:

I don't really understand. Before I state my points and questions, I will say this. I live in Ca and and the only games I got to see on my dvr and remind and watch plays over again were the prime time games. The others I had to watch at a pizza place. And I had beer in me for every game. BUT, to me it looks like Pierce was just about as disruptive as BWill this year. He had a couple sacks and to me it looks like he has as much or more pass rushing ability already. And I know he stuffs the run. And I remember multiple times this year just watching him walk an oline man 3-6 yards straight back into the back field. And he played all 16 games. I know he hasn't done it for as long, but I think he's just about there. And very well may be ready to man the every down role of our NT. Especially keeping the momentum from this season heading into the off season. I didn't exclude it because it's not always the same process for everyone. And to me Pierce proved he's ready. He's hungry and really seems as talented as anybody in the league at his position. He just needs more time on the field to prove himself and improve his game, which can top out at all pro level imo. Though true nosetackles don't really get much love at all. What a pick up this guy was.
Brandon Williams is literally going to make 16-20 times more than Pierce next year. Think about how crazy that is. Considering the position+Pierce+our current roster+the price tag for BWill coming up, I think we've gotta spend that 8-10 on something else. Wagner, S. Gilmore, Marshall.
Just wondering why you think Pierce is so far behind BWill

First off, I appreciate the detailed response and you make a lot of valid points. I'm sorry if I implied that I don't have faith in Pierce or that I don't want to see him on the field.

For starters, I don't give a NT much credit or criticism when it comes to sacks because I know that it comes and goes. He may have 7 one season and 1 the next and have a better year overall. Sacks is not a NTs job. Ultimately, a NT needs to swallow double teams and dictate to the opposing offense where the run game goes. B.Will is one of the best at doing that. He regularly makes life easy for our DEs and MLBs. That comes from overall awareness of scheme and football IQ. And of course you need to be physically gifted to be able to do that against opposing linemen.

pierce is a fantastic athlete and can push a car over if he wanted to. I'm just not sure he diagnoses plays and knows when to sacrifice his body or stats for the better of the team. That's not a knock on Pierce but the Ravens play a complicated scheme on the line and if one person steps out of line then we give up big plays not an extra yard or 2.

Pierce started loosing playing time as the season went on and to me that's a big concern. Maybe it's not his fault but that's an indication that he's just not ready. Early in the season when our D was full strength, we put Pierce in situations where he didn't need to think much. Just beat the guy in front of you.

well to keep things simple, having Bwill start and Pierce play 30-50 percent of snaps is a luxury that id love to keep. Dline was one of the few consistant units on this team so why mess with it if you can afford to keep it? We can handle an injury crisis but if Pierce is the starter then he gets hurt or we need more bodies on 3rd and short or goal line then what?

If Williams demands 8-10 mil a year then he's a talent that is worth us working around. It's not like he's going to ask for Suh money or we can't get out of his contract whenever Pierce is ready.

i think iv said this on another thread, the Ravens ultimately have 30-35 million in cap space to work with for 2017 without letting go of players who started last year. If we keep b will and Wagner that's probably gonna count 10-12 mil against the cap combined in 2017. That leaves 15-20mil to attack a draft and FA this year so it's not like we were 2 years ago where we need to make a lot of sacrifices.

Id love to have Gilmore but now we may be talking of something like 12mil a year money and I'm not sure our FO would have 2 CBs making 25 mil a year.

B.Marshall on the other hand is someone that I think we should pursue before he gets released. Heck throw a 6th round their way and we're done here lol. His 7.5 mil cap hit is so doable and we could even sign him to an extension and spread the cap hit as he is in his last year of his deal. 

This will be an interesting off season as our current roster doesn't have any glaring need but a whole bunch of positions that could get upgraded. 

[whobilly]

Translated.....Williams is going to whatever team offers him the most money. On another note, if we release Mike Wallace we will not have ONE legitimate NFL WR on the team.

[whobilly]

  8 hours ago, law215 said:

The Ravens need talent of both sides of the ball. Without B Williams and Orr, the run defense will suffer. Mike Wallace, Webb, Dumervil are not worth losing B. Williams. Ravens need to keep their young good players instead of overpaid players.

No it won't Williams is slightly above average I don't see all the concerns about losing this guy he is not a good Pass rusher and DOSEN'T come up big in big games

There it is.....THE TRUTH.

[whobilly]

We have so many holes on this team, and due to poor cap management/ failed drafts, this team is doomed every year- Flacco taking up elite money is also hurting us as well. Oz was successful when he didn't have to spend a lot on a qb- ever since he's had to allocate a lot of $$ to Flacco, the team has just gotten worse and worse (not even mentioning the bad drafts over the past five years). So Brandon Williams is going to pull a KO on us, and I think we also lose Wagner. I don't think people like to play for Harbs, and he's a dead coach walking because he's been losing more than he's winning- the team may appear to be stable, but we will have another down year this year as well- we don't make the playoffs two years from now - maybe not even then.

Every team eventually has to buck up for the QB. To your other point, the horrible drafts since 2009 have finally caught up with us, in particular a lot of the early picks.

[Halshayeji]

41 minutes ago, sizzlingdoom said:

Interesting to think about if we didn't resign any of our free agents. I think Wagner is the only one we should consider.
I know everyone has their preference, but I would probably cut:
-Doom
-Wallace
-Pitta
-Watson
-Arrington
-K.Lewis
-Webb
-Wright
-Zuttah (hopefully trade him)

If a site is right that frees up 33 Million in cap space!!! Not to mention it's be great to add a little to that if Flacco restructured at all.
That means we really can go after whoever we want. Hope KC pissed off Berry so much he leaves.
I think Stephone Gilmore and Marshall (through trade or FA) have to be our top targets.
If we did cut all those names above, the only positions to fill from the moves would be
wr-Marshall
Safety- Cyprien would be Awesome at SS- Weddle to FS
Corner-Gilmore, or Trumaine Johnson
Center- I'm hoping for Elflein in round 2
We already need a pass rusher. Round 3 maybe. Or round 1 if we grab Gilmore and there's a stud at 16. Solomon Thomas would be awesome
Though I doubt we'll make that many cuts, this should be an interesting offseason

Stop the madness lol

you were on the right track untill you said release Pitta and Wallace.

iv occasionally  criticized Flacco for his inconsistant play last year but to take his 3 best pass catchers in 1 offseason is insane. We want to add talent not wholes on this squad. 

Pitta took a 4 mil dollar paycut last year as a thank you so there's just about 0% the Ravens cut him. It also only frees up 3.2mil if we do and there's no way we find anyone better for that amount. Maybe we can play with his contract a bit to free up cap but he won't get cut.

Wallaces contract was structured in a way that we'd redo it this year so why would you let go of a 1000 yard WR? Redo the deal and the cap hit falls a few million. Agai if you let go of Wallace then you save 5.5mil. Good luck finding a 1000 yard receiver with that money.

also Webb is not getting cut unless a better option walks in the building. The Ravens have all the leverage now to redo his deal so why lose him for nothing?

everything else you said could probably happen. Including Flacco taking 4 mil up front and moving the cap hit to 3 years down the road but I wouldn't recommend that kind of a move unless we're going all in. Super bowl or bust kind of move.

Edited February 12 by Halshayeji

[Derrel]

Recently, they let these players leave and it shows on the field. IMO, they don't have a coaching staff competent enough to develop guys like the Pats.

[markbuilds]

Is there a cap on what we pay coaching staff? Any particular reason that we don't have coaches that can make something from nothing?

[law215]

We have so many holes on this team, and due to poor cap management/ failed drafts, this team is doomed every year- Flacco taking up elite money is also hurting us as well. Oz was successful when he didn't have to spend a lot on a qb- ever since he's had to allocate a lot of $$ to Flacco, the team has just gotten worse and worse (not even mentioning the bad drafts over the past five years). So Brandon Williams is going to pull a KO on us, and I think we also lose Wagner. I don't think people like to play for Harbs, and he's a dead coach walking because he's been losing more than he's winning- the team may appear to be stable, but we will have another down year this year as well- we don't make the playoffs two years from now - maybe not even then.

I agree with your points. Until the Ravens have a head coach and position coaches to DEVELOP young talent, Ravens will always be up against the salary cap and rely on older players that don't need to be taught. Harbs been throwing coordinators in front of the bus for years and now he's offering up Flacco. A good coach would have seen Flacco can not carry an offense and DEMAND running the ball more. Instead Harbs waits after the game to say coulda, shoulda.

The poor drafting has compounded the problem. However, though not great, Ravens should have utilize Perriman, Dixon, Williams, Gilmore, Waller more. That's a coaching issue.

[jsarrocohome@yahoo.com]

  4 hours ago, sizzlingdoom said:

Interesting to think about if we didn't resign any of our free agents. I think Wagner is the only one we should consider.
I know everyone has their preference, but I would probably cut:
-Doom
-Wallace
-Pitta
-Watson
-Arrington
-K.Lewis
-Webb
-Wright
-Zuttah (hopefully trade him)

If a site is right that frees up 33 Million in cap space!!! Not to mention it's be great to add a little to that if Flacco restructured at all.
That means we really can go after whoever we want. Hope KC pissed off Berry so much he leaves.
I think Stephone Gilmore and Marshall (through trade or FA) have to be our top targets.
If we did cut all those names above, the only positions to fill from the moves would be
wr-Marshall
Safety- Cyprien would be Awesome at SS- Weddle to FS
Corner-Gilmore, or Trumaine Johnson
Center- I'm hoping for Elflein in round 2
We already need a pass rusher. Round 3 maybe. Or round 1 if we grab Gilmore and there's a stud at 16. Solomon Thomas would be awesome
Though I doubt we'll make that many cuts, this should be an interesting offseason

Stop the madness lol

you were on the right track untill you said release Pitta and Wallace.

iv occasionally  criticized Flacco for his inconsistant play last year but to take his 3 best pass catchers in 1 offseason is insane. We want to add talent not wholes on this squad. 

Pitta took a 4 mil dollar paycut last year as a thank you so there's just about 0% the Ravens cut him. It also only frees up 3.2mil if we do and there's no way we find anyone better for that amount. Maybe we can play with his contract a bit to free up cap but he won't get cut.

Wallaces contract was structured in a way that we'd redo it this year so why would you let go of a 1000 yard WR? Redo the deal and the cap hit falls a few million. Agai if you let go of Wallace then you save 5.5mil. Good luck finding a 1000 yard receiver with that money.

also Webb is not getting cut unless a better option walks in the building. The Ravens have all the leverage now to redo his deal so why lose him for nothing?

everything else you said could probably happen. Including Flacco taking 4 mil up front and moving the cap hit to 3 years down the road but I wouldn't recommend that kind of a move unless we're going all in. Super bowl or bust kind of move.

I agree with almost everything you said except webb won't be back we need to upgrade his position

[jsarrocohome@yahoo.com]

Translated.....Williams is going to whatever team offers him the most money. On another note, if we release Mike Wallace we will not have ONE legitimate NFL WR on the team.

we should try to redo Wallace's contract but no way I let this guy go I think he played well and he has a little fire in him

[ellicottraven]

If we had to sign one of Williams or Wagner for 9-10M a year, my vote is for Wagner. Here's my rationale: Brandon is a great run stuffing nose tackle, perhaps top 3 in the league. However, he isn't even top 10 as a pass rushing D-tackle. So he is one dimensional in that he stuffs up the middle and commands double teams consistently and allows the linebackers freedom to roam and make plays. He is very useful to any front 7.

As for Wagner, he's rated a top 5 RT pretty much across the board. He's a great pass protector (Imagine Flacco's plight without that), and is an effective run blocker too and can get to the second level. He is a very important part of the puzzle for our O-line. The one reason, the Ravens felt comfortable shifting Yanda over to the left side was because of Wagner. Not much is said about it, but I'm near certain that figured into the equation despite Yanda's injury. 

Now that we've established both are really important to the team, it's unlikely we can keep both or even one for that matter. Let's suppose we are determined to keep one and are willing to pay market price. Who do we choose? I say Wagner because of these reasons:

Williams has a replacement in-house that played incredibly well last year given limited reps. That is Pierce. He is similar to Brandon Williams in that he is 6'1" with a low center of gravity and weights 335 just like Williams and arguably just as strong. He may not be as good a run stuffer as Williams yet, but he'll get there soon with experience. However, in my opinion he gets far better pass rush that Williams does and is very potent. He can be substituted occasionally with Henry or Carl Davis so we have depth at the position. As for Wagner's position who do we really have? I expect Yanda to move back to RG next year and Alex Lewis to take over the LG position where he excelled. If we let go of Wagner, who do we put there? Hurst? Or a rookie? Or a free agent who's also going to command big dollars if he's any good or he's going to be average if we get him cheap. That will effectively ruin the entire line and won't work like an experienced unit. All we really need to do right now, is draft a Center/Guard who'll be an able back up or start at Center in lieu of Zuttah. In my view, the rest of our O-line aren't starters but good back ups period. 

So, why wouldn't we go after Wagner instead of Williams? To me its good roster management to keep Wagner so there is continuity on the O-line.

[TheConquerorWorm]

  8 hours ago, sizzlingdoom said:

I don't really understand. Before I state my points and questions, I will say this. I live in Ca and and the only games I got to see on my dvr and remind and watch plays over again were the prime time games. The others I had to watch at a pizza place. And I had beer in me for every game. BUT, to me it looks like Pierce was just about as disruptive as BWill this year. He had a couple sacks and to me it looks like he has as much or more pass rushing ability already. And I know he stuffs the run. And I remember multiple times this year just watching him walk an oline man 3-6 yards straight back into the back field. And he played all 16 games. I know he hasn't done it for as long, but I think he's just about there. And very well may be ready to man the every down role of our NT. Especially keeping the momentum from this season heading into the off season. I didn't exclude it because it's not always the same process for everyone. And to me Pierce proved he's ready. He's hungry and really seems as talented as anybody in the league at his position. He just needs more time on the field to prove himself and improve his game, which can top out at all pro level imo. Though true nosetackles don't really get much love at all. What a pick up this guy was.
Brandon Williams is literally going to make 16-20 times more than Pierce next year. Think about how crazy that is. Considering the position+Pierce+our current roster+the price tag for BWill coming up, I think we've gotta spend that 8-10 on something else. Wagner, S. Gilmore, Marshall.
Just wondering why you think Pierce is so far behind BWill

First off, I appreciate the detailed response and you make a lot of valid points. I'm sorry if I implied that I don't have faith in Pierce or that I don't want to see him on the field.

For starters, I don't give a NT much credit or criticism when it comes to sacks because I know that it comes and goes. He may have 7 one season and 1 the next and have a better year overall. Sacks is not a NTs job. Ultimately, a NT needs to swallow double teams and dictate to the opposing offense where the run game goes. B.Will is one of the best at doing that. He regularly makes life easy for our DEs and MLBs. That comes from overall awareness of scheme and football IQ. And of course you need to be physically gifted to be able to do that against opposing linemen.

pierce is a fantastic athlete and can push a car over if he wanted to. I'm just not sure he diagnoses plays and knows when to sacrifice his body or stats for the better of the team. That's not a knock on Pierce but the Ravens play a complicated scheme on the line and if one person steps out of line then we give up big plays not an extra yard or 2.

Pierce started loosing playing time as the season went on and to me that's a big concern. Maybe it's not his fault but that's an indication that he's just not ready. Early in the season when our D was full strength, we put Pierce in situations where he didn't need to think much. Just beat the guy in front of you.

well to keep things simple, having Bwill start and Pierce play 30-50 percent of snaps is a luxury that id love to keep. Dline was one of the few consistant units on this team so why mess with it if you can afford to keep it? We can handle an injury crisis but if Pierce is the starter then he gets hurt or we need more bodies on 3rd and short or goal line then what?

If Williams demands 8-10 mil a year then he's a talent that is worth us working around. It's not like he's going to ask for Suh money or we can't get out of his contract whenever Pierce is ready.

i think iv said this on another thread, the Ravens ultimately have 30-35 million in cap space to work with for 2017 without letting go of players who started last year. If we keep b will and Wagner that's probably gonna count 10-12 mil against the cap combined in 2017. That leaves 15-20mil to attack a draft and FA this year so it's not like we were 2 years ago where we need to make a lot of sacrifices.

Id love to have Gilmore but now we may be talking of something like 12mil a year money and I'm not sure our FO would have 2 CBs making 25 mil a year.

B.Marshall on the other hand is someone that I think we should pursue before he gets released. Heck throw a 6th round their way and we're done here lol. His 7.5 mil cap hit is so doable and we could even sign him to an extension and spread the cap hit as he is in his last year of his deal. 

This will be an interesting off season as our current roster doesn't have any glaring need but a whole bunch of positions that could get upgraded. 

Well said. I agree that Pierce has the natural talent but I didn't see much consistency from him last year. He flashed a couple of games but was nowhere to be found in our biggest games (Pit, NE, etc). The NT position is not about sacks - it's about controlling both A gaps & making the o-line double & triple team you (something that BWill is one of the best in the league at). IF Pierce can take the next step, he is a replacement for BWill - if he doesn't, the Ravens have a huge hole up the middle that teams will run all day on. I would much rather see BWill signed and have Pierce play next to him - that makes our d-line so much stronger. Wallace is a selfish, one trick pony that disappears in games. I would much rather dump him, start Moore and use that money to sign BWill. Not that hard to replace a 65 yard per game WR.

[bigcatfrank1]

If we had to sign one of Williams or Wagner for 9-10M a year, my vote is for Wagner. Here's my rationale: Brandon is a great run stuffing nose tackle, perhaps top 3 in the league. However, he isn't even top 10 as a pass rushing D-tackle. So he is one dimensional in that he stuffs up the middle and commands double teams consistently and allows the linebackers freedom to roam and make plays. He is very useful to any front 7.

As for Wagner, he's rated a top 5 RT pretty much across the board. He's a great pass protector (Imagine Flacco's plight without that), and is an effective run blocker too and can get to the second level. He is a very important part of the puzzle for our O-line. The one reason, the Ravens felt comfortable shifting Yanda over to the left side was because of Wagner. Not much is said about it, but I'm near certain that figured into the equation despite Yanda's injury. 

Now that we've established both are really important to the team, it's unlikely we can keep both or even one for that matter. Let's suppose we are determined to keep one and are willing to pay market price. Who do we choose? I say Wagner because of these reasons:

Williams has a replacement in-house that played incredibly well last year given limited reps. That is Pierce. He is similar to Brandon Williams in that he is 6'1" with a low center of gravity and weights 335 just like Williams and arguably just as strong. He may not be as good a run stuffer as Williams yet, but he'll get there soon with experience. However, in my opinion he gets far better pass rush that Williams does and is very potent. He can be substituted occasionally with Henry or Carl Davis so we have depth at the position. As for Wagner's position who do we really have? I expect Yanda to move back to RG next year and Alex Lewis to take over the LG position where he excelled. If we let go of Wagner, who do we put there? Hurst? Or a rookie? Or a free agent who's also going to command big dollars if he's any good or he's going to be average if we get him cheap. That will effectively ruin the entire line and won't work like an experienced unit. All we really need to do right now, is draft a Center/Guard who'll be an able back up or start at Center in lieu of Zuttah. In my view, the rest of our O-line aren't starters but good back ups period. 

So, why wouldn't we go after Wagner instead of Williams? To me its good roster management to keep Wagner so there is continuity on the O-line.

Balance, that is the reason.
The overall Team cost is looked at in basically 3 squads Offence, Defense and ST same as Draft and Coaching etc.
The Cost value per position is where the Ravens front office may have to really look at this situation.
Length of contracts for Offensive linemen will become too imbalanced if they lock down Wagner at a high/long cap plan.
A big Reason is the future of Stanley. With Yanda, Stanley, Lewis and the need for an NFL center, the Ravens simply will not commit another 10mil to the O-line.6.5 is the max I think they will consider for RT in the current state of the squads.

At some point there is going to be a lower salary, not every position can have a "cap" max guy.
lets ask this then, why would the Ravens have even considered allowing KO to walK?

Its unfortunate for RIcky because sometimes its timing, but the the FO has pockets glued for Stanley and Lewis.
If want my opinion, his agent would be smart to tell him to consider staying in Baltimore. He may end up overextended working on a poor offense. 4yrs/ 26 mil would be a great deal, imagine if he gets a Ring and Super Bonus too!

[bigcatfrank1]

If we had to sign one of Williams or Wagner for 9-10M a year, my vote is for Wagner. Here's my rationale: Brandon is a great run stuffing nose tackle, perhaps top 3 in the league. However, he isn't even top 10 as a pass rushing D-tackle. So he is one dimensional in that he stuffs up the middle and commands double teams consistently and allows the linebackers freedom to roam and make plays. He is very useful to any front 7.

As for Wagner, he's rated a top 5 RT pretty much across the board. He's a great pass protector (Imagine Flacco's plight without that), and is an effective run blocker too and can get to the second level. He is a very important part of the puzzle for our O-line. The one reason, the Ravens felt comfortable shifting Yanda over to the left side was because of Wagner. Not much is said about it, but I'm near certain that figured into the equation despite Yanda's injury. 

Now that we've established both are really important to the team, it's unlikely we can keep both or even one for that matter. Let's suppose we are determined to keep one and are willing to pay market price. Who do we choose? I say Wagner because of these reasons:

Williams has a replacement in-house that played incredibly well last year given limited reps. That is Pierce. He is similar to Brandon Williams in that he is 6'1" with a low center of gravity and weights 335 just like Williams and arguably just as strong. He may not be as good a run stuffer as Williams yet, but he'll get there soon with experience. However, in my opinion he gets far better pass rush that Williams does and is very potent. He can be substituted occasionally with Henry or Carl Davis so we have depth at the position. As for Wagner's position who do we really have? I expect Yanda to move back to RG next year and Alex Lewis to take over the LG position where he excelled. If we let go of Wagner, who do we put there? Hurst? Or a rookie? Or a free agent who's also going to command big dollars if he's any good or he's going to be average if we get him cheap. That will effectively ruin the entire line and won't work like an experienced unit. All we really need to do right now, is draft a Center/Guard who'll be an able back up or start at Center in lieu of Zuttah. In my view, the rest of our O-line aren't starters but good back ups period. 

So, why wouldn't we go after Wagner instead of Williams? To me its good roster management to keep Wagner so there is continuity on the O-line.

From strictly an "on-field" look, you could be correct.

I think player squad has to become a part of the equation. The Top guys need to be shouldered with the " upper" talent and the up and coming. All these equate to salary amounts.

But you have to add the off field "business" that comes down to affordability, value of position, competitive salaries and contracts. Then how to work that with 70 revolving NFL players each yea, and then subsequent years based on contract terms.

The Ravens will need Safety's soon, RB, QB. those are "high" cap NFL positions. Some say "average Joe", but imagine what QB contacts might look like in 2020.

[ravefan52]

Run defense will definitely be worse without B Williams (pass rush won't though, Pierce is more effective there), but we were one of the very best in the league at that. The offense was pathetic and now you're going to let go one of the best RT's? Sure Lewis could replace him, but it'd be a downgrade. And then LG would turn into a downgrade as well. It's a thin OL draft and FA class (especially at OT) and most teams are desperate for OL right now. All of a sudden the offense looks even worse and there's even less help for Flacco. I don't understand how a run stuffing DT could take precedence over one of the best pass blocking OT's in the league, especially when you have good, young and cheap depth at DT and little depth at all on the OL.

Edited February 12 by ravefan52

[Ravens8383]

Run defense will probably be worse without B Williams (pass rush won't though, Pierce is more effective there), but we were one of the very best in the league at that. The offense was pathetic and now you're going to let go one of the best RT's go? Sure Lewis could replace him, but it'd be a downgrade. And then LG would turn into a downgrade as well. It's a thin OL draft and FA class (especially at OT) and most teams are desperate for OL right now. All of a sudden the offense looks even worse and there's even less help for Flacco. I don't understand how a run stuffing DT could take precedence over one of the best pass blocking OT's in the league, especially when you have good, young and cheap depth at DT and little depth at all on the OL.

I have felt the same way about this. I think Pierce can step in and be very productive and I bet that Ozzie drafts a DT in the late rounds. I would love to see Williams back next year but not at the expense of letting Wagner just walk without even trying to keep him.

[Ravenous_Ravens]

Alex Lewis is more ready and capable to step in and replace Rick Wagner. Not a knock on him, but rather just being honest about the difference in talent/skill/size, etc.

Michael Pierce is definitely exciting to watch and looks to be trending in a good direction. He looks to be able to one day hold down the fort, but IMHO I think he will need another solid campaign before he is ready for a full time role. It is a big role to fill. BW might not put up huge sacks but not many NT do period and that could actually be in the Ravens favor. BW does eat up a great deal of double teams allowing CJ and Z Orr (sorely missed) to do their thing. A lot of teams, while they would love to have big BW manning the middle of the field, are not going to jump at spending big dollars at NT compared to other positions. Cap increase is about the only x factor I see as there is generally less demand for NT's.

[TheConquerorWorm]

I don't see why they can't do both. Cutting Dumervil will save $6 million - that alone is almost enough to sign Wagner (whom I suspect will be somewhere in the same range as top RTs Schraeder (Falcons) & Schwartz (Chiefs) of $6.5-7 million per). Is their anyone who would rather have Dumervil over Wagner at this point?

[EdTheMythicalOne]

Why do these article writers assume to know what we're thinking and asking?

Obviously there is an opportunity cost/lost scenario involved with Brandon Williams. This is why the decision isn't quite so simple. You know what he is and what he brings to the table. He is a very good run stopper that isn't a three down player because he doesn't generate enough pass rush and doesn't collapse the pocket enough like Ngata used to in his prime. He will most likely cost a fortune to keep if you think his market is based off of Damon Harrison's contract last season and the fact that the salary cap is going up again. I would argue that Damon Harrison is actually a better player than Williams so the comparison isn't exactly fair, but the market probably will not make such a distinction.

So, if you do keep Williams you can pretty much assure that your run defense will be as good as it has been before, but obviously the money to commit to signing him can't be spent to address needs elsewhere.

I personally think the Ravens can survive perfectly well enough without Williams since we have players like Pierce, Henry, and Carl Davis waiting in the wings and incoming draft picks as well. That money could be better spent addressing huge areas of need for this team.

Come on writers for this site, give your readers some credit for once.

[rmcjacket23]

I don't see why they can't do both. Cutting Dumervil will save $6 million - that alone is almost enough to sign Wagner (whom I suspect will be somewhere in the same range as top RTs Schraeder (Falcons) & Schwartz (Chiefs) of $6.5-7 million per). Is their anyone who would rather have Dumervil over Wagner at this point?

Well we have probably about 10 positions on this team that could use upgrading, and if you're committing most of your salary cap just on keeping existing players, it will be extremely difficult to upgrade those.

Certainly can't do it all via the draft. Safety, Corner, Pass rusher (especially when you cut Doom), MLB, WR, Center, etc. Lots of holes to fill and only so much money/draft picks to do it with.

[rmcjacket23]

Is there a cap on what we pay coaching staff? Any particular reason that we don't have coaches that can make something from nothing?

No, there isn't.

[rmcjacket23]

First cut to OLD slow players eating up cap money. Then get "old 3 and out Flacco" to help with cap space. He NOT worth what he's getting paid. I would rather see Flacco go. Offer Williams a good deal, but don't break the bank for him, save money for other players we need. We have let to many good players walk.

Examples?

[Tenacious Faulker]

I've loved Williams in a Ravens uniform since day 1. If he is going to cost in excess of $9-10M/yr they may have to move on because they do have good depth behind him and a lot of other pieces they need to acquire and retain. I don't want him to go, but if they have to make that call in the same vein as Arthur Jones and Courtney Upshaw then so be it. We need a top safety, possession receiver, center and corner back. We can't expect to have a ready-made rookie starter out of the draft for any of those positions. Hopefully Williams will opt to take a hometown discount to stay - something fair for him and the team.

[TheConquerorWorm]

  20 hours ago, TheConquerorWorm said:

I don't see why they can't do both. Cutting Dumervil will save $6 million - that alone is almost enough to sign Wagner (whom I suspect will be somewhere in the same range as top RTs Schraeder (Falcons) & Schwartz (Chiefs) of $6.5-7 million per). Is their anyone who would rather have Dumervil over Wagner at this point?

Well we have probably about 10 positions on this team that could use upgrading, and if you're committing most of your salary cap just on keeping existing players, it will be extremely difficult to upgrade those.

Certainly can't do it all via the draft. Safety, Corner, Pass rusher (especially when you cut Doom), MLB, WR, Center, etc. Lots of holes to fill and only so much money/draft picks to do it with.

Yes, but the difference being we have some in house replacements for Doom - Judon & Za'Darius. Can they take the next steps? Seems so or they can at least be as productive as an aging Doom would be this year. Meanwhile, if Wagner goes, you don't have a solid player to fill that hole in the o-line (let's assume that Lewis can move to RT, now a hole at LG). Which means that you have to start an inferior player, sign a vet (gonna cost you $3-4 million anyway) or start a rookie.

This draft is deep at Safety, Corner, Pass Rusher, Center and lots of quality WRs in the mid rounds. I think Peanut can fill in for Orr at MLB (he looked good in the Cincy game) with KC as the fall back option. If not, veteran ILB are cheap & easily found on the waiver wire. Really, the holes are mostly on the depth chart - not the starting spots. ILB and DL (if Bwill goes) are the only "starters" we need to fill on defense (You have Peanut & Pierce that could possibly fill those positions). Yes, we need a quality 3rd corner but we have Webb, Weddle, Tavon, Smith as our starters in the secondary. On offense, we need a 3rd WR and a back-up C.

We are in a much better situation than some other teams like the Bengals who have to replace most of their Offensive & Defensive Line this year. Or the Squealers, who are going to commit almost all of there salary cap money to keeping Bell & Brown.

[rmcjacket23]

10 hours ago, TheConquerorWorm said:

Yes, but the difference being we have some in house replacements for Doom - Judon & Za'Darius. Can they take the next steps? Seems so or they can at least be as productive as an aging Doom would be this year. Meanwhile, if Wagner goes, you don't have a solid player to fill that hole in the o-line (let's assume that Lewis can move to RT, now a hole at LG). Which means that you have to start an inferior player, sign a vet (gonna cost you $3-4 million anyway) or start a rookie.

This draft is deep at Safety, Corner, Pass Rusher, Center and lots of quality WRs in the mid rounds. I think Peanut can fill in for Orr at MLB (he looked good in the Cincy game) with KC as the fall back option. If not, veteran ILB are cheap & easily found on the waiver wire. Really, the holes are mostly on the depth chart - not the starting spots. ILB and DL (if Bwill goes) are the only "starters" we need to fill on defense (You have Peanut & Pierce that could possibly fill those positions). Yes, we need a quality 3rd corner but we have Webb, Weddle, Tavon, Smith as our starters in the secondary. On offense, we need a 3rd WR and a back-up C.

We are in a much better situation than some other teams like the Bengals who have to replace most of their Offensive & Defensive Line this year. Or the Squealers, who are going to commit almost all of there salary cap money to keeping Bell & Brown.

1. Well we have in-house replacements, we just don't know if they're good in-house replacements or not. Both of those guys got plenty of playing time last season, since Doom didn't play a ton anyway. They could get better, or they could not get better. If they don't get better, then we've got ourselves a serious problem. That's primarily why I think most people expect us to add a rusher at some point.

2. In terms of the Oline, we typically have zero issues drafting and developing quality offensive lineman, which is why I think the team is willing to let Wagner go. I think they legitimately believe they could go use a day 2 draft pick on a lineman (either Guard or Tackle) and start them on day 1. We know they've done this several times in the past, and Wagner was actually one of those guys himself. He played very well right out of the gate. Is that risky? Sure. 

3. This draft class is definitely not deep at Center. Most analysts that I've seen would say this draft is a very poor class for Centers, and that teams will have a hard time finding good one's in this class. I agree the secondary is deeper in this class, and it needs to be, because we need multiple secondary players.

4. We definitely need a lot more in terms of depth and even starters than you think. I definitely am not banking on Webb, because I think he's 50/50 at best to even be on the roster by the Summer. Doom will likely be gone, Zuttah is expected to be gone, we could see Webb get cut, and Shareece Wright is a cut candidate as well.

In theory, that could leave you with two respectable corners and one quality safety on the whole roster. You have no depth there and you basically can't even field a starting unit. That'd be a problem. The draft is a place where I think they focus heavily on here.

In terms of WR, the only WRs on your roster are essentially the same players. Wallace, Perriman and Moore all share similar skill sets and attributes.

The type of WR we will be looking for is a chain mover, 3rd down option, primarily working the middle of the field. I suspect if that's a veteran, he would immediately slot in more of starting role, and could easily be in the top 2-3 on the team in targets.

The reason the Steelers are miles ahead of us right now is that they're young (and cheap) on defense and can continue to emphasize that in the draft. They've got playmakers already on offense (which we don't) that they will retain. 

 

[davy_861]

Not comparable to Ngata. He does does what he does, "plug the middle" ( whatever that means). Never seen the guy change a game like when Ngata knocked the snot out of Big Ben. If he wants Ngata money -- ✌️and wish him the best for the remainder of his career