[News] Eisenberg: We're Asking The Wrong Question About Brandon Williams

[BR News]

It's too easy to say the Ravens should keep the defensive tackle. Of course they should. But, it's more complicated to identify what should be sacrificed in order to re-sign him.

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[ravefan52]

Wagner should 100% be the top priority, not a run stuffing NT

[Glen1024]

Keeping a player that is top 3-4 at their position should be the priority...we must reverse this trend of losing all our good draft picks....guys get to their 2nd contract and playing prime years with other teams....Can't just let impact players just leave like that especially with our early round draft troubles these last few years

[ellicottraven]

Wagner is more irreplaceable than Brandon right now.

[ndinoto03]

As good a player as he is, I say we let him go. The Ravens have always been successful at drafting d-lineman, and they have a bunch of youg guys ready to contribute.

[Saxxin]

He's good. But he's not Ngata good. The bar was set to high for him I can admit. But he's not a top notch player just because he took over for one..

[RavensDieHard21]

I will concede that we are in fact very very good at drafting defensive lineman, but Williams has a huge cog for why our run defense was darn near impenetrable 3/4ths of the season and a top unit last year. 

Remove Williams from that picture and I think other guys don't nearly look as efficient. Barring the contract, it is 100% in our best interest to resign him to a $40-45 million deal over 5 years. 

The cap is very likely going up another 10-15 million. We will likely clear space of bloated contracts as well, such as Pitta, Doom, Arrington, etc. very likely we will have around $15-20m in space. 

The last thing we need after an 8-8 year where we were probably a corner, center and young pass rusher away from serious playoff contention is another new glaring need, especially since we already have a new one without a possession receiver with SSS gone and ILB with Orr retiring. 

I don't think the run d would fall off a cliff. But I undoubtedly believe we go from top 3-5 to outside the top 10. This isn't a scenario where we are debating giving a defensive player QB money like the Dolphins did with Suh, this is just being committed to putting the best team out there in 17' instead of hoping and praying miracles happen with development of unproven guys. 

[RavensDieHard21]

37 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

Wagner is more irreplaceable than Brandon right now.

I'd have to agree, but what is he looking to command? Rumors are that he could get 9-10 per year. While RT is just as important as LT these days, that is steep for a guy that really is only good in pass protection and a mediocre run blocker. 

[bioLarzen]

We have lost players in free agency much more important and irreplaceable than Brandon Williams. I'm not saying he isn't a key cog - but IMHO losing him can't be compared to losing KO, for example...

Guys, this is the cap system. It's easy to see the cap as a bad thing when your team is near the limit and it feels like a chokehold - but if the cap system wasn't in place, and the only limit on roster salary was how much money the owner is willing to spend on the team, it would be hell. Believe me: I'm European, and thus can see it every day in our soccer - so I can safely predict at least half of the NFL (and this is a VERY conservative estimation, believe me) would be in the hands of oil sheiks, Chinese and Russian and Thai oligarchs - most of whom could easily buy the entire NFL if they really wanted...

Believe me: you wouldn't want that.

[bioLarzen]

  55 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

Wagner is more irreplaceable than Brandon right now.

I'd have to agree, but what is he looking to command? Rumors are that he could get 9-10 per year. While RT is just as important as LT these days, that is steep for a guy that really is only good in pass protection and a mediocre run blocker. 

Look at it from this POV: is saving a couple of millions wiorth risking our QB harrassed on a regular basis if Wagner's replacement fails?

[Chuckx999]

First cut to OLD slow players eating up cap money. Then get "old 3 and out Flacco" to help with cap space. He NOT worth what he's getting paid. I would rather see Flacco go. Offer Williams a good deal, but don't break the bank for him, save money for other players we need. We have let to many good players walk.

[purpledown]

the Ravens HAVE to keep WIlliams, its that simple. Cut the older FA's, and im not that sold on Wallace either. But more than likely Williams will be in SF next year or Jacksonville or hopefully not Pittsburgh. This guy is young and coming into his prime. The Ravens have to stop being a farm team for other NFL clubs. Heaven forbid we ask the Elite Flacco to take a pay cut of a dollar or two!

[The Greek]

he frees up the lb's to make tackles but how much will it cost us without killing the cap to fix other issues. we will know soon enough

[The Greek]

wallace at $8 million forget about it. he will need to accept less

[b93333]

I'm sure Linta is calling Ozzie as we write this offering up a big salary cut for Joe so we will have the cap space to keep Williams...

[bigcatfrank1]

First cut to OLD slow players eating up cap money. Then get "old 3 and out Flacco" to help with cap space. He NOT worth what he's getting paid. I would rather see Flacco go. Offer Williams a good deal, but don't break the bank for him, save money for other players we need. We have let to many good players walk.

vague, quite vague. First Flacco is not going anywhere until after 2018 so 2 more years, time to end the pleading for something that many do not agree with you about, especially since its not going to happen.

Second, Williams is going to deal on a good deal for himself and his family, not on what he is "offered" in order for us, the Ravens or any other NFL owner thinks won't "break the bank" or save money for mo.
Certainly you can't expect a low ball offer to work.

The Ravens are in a much better place to work out deals this year than in the " KO " and "Nagta" FA timing. Williams is worth 10mil yr. and, as far as the NFL knows, worth more. The Ravens can afford a deal. Values for positions get set by competition. I believe he is worth top dollar from the Ravens, some may not agree. 5 yr /$50 mil make the offer OZ and i bet he stays.

As far as Wagner, again he can be kept. The question is what is he worth to the Ravens? His position should not command quite the dollar height of a NT. Hopefully he can be retained for 6.5 mil yr something like a 3 yr /$20 mil. make the offer OZ, if he walks he may not get more and might stick around. Otherwise Draft the big guy and Put Yanda back on the right side, we have been there before.

I also do not believe that the Wallace is the contract that the Ravens should give up to gain Williams back. It saves 5.5 in space, rather I would give up the Dumerville contract at almost the same 5.3.

So there are some facts and figures ( ballpark) as some ways to look at keeping them. its a total team situation agreed. However I would give up Dumervil, Guy and Powers to Keep Williams at this point in the careers. We might get a trade deal with Doom

[bigcatfrank1]

I will concede that we are in fact very very good at drafting defensive lineman, but Williams has a huge cog for why our run defense was darn near impenetrable 3/4ths of the season and a top unit last year. 

Remove Williams from that picture and I think other guys don't nearly look as efficient. Barring the contract, it is 100% in our best interest to resign him to a $40-45 million deal over 5 years. 

The cap is very likely going up another 10-15 million. We will likely clear space of bloated contracts as well, such as Pitta, Doom, Arrington, etc. very likely we will have around $15-20m in space. 

The last thing we need after an 8-8 year where we were probably a corner, center and young pass rusher away from serious playoff contention is another new glaring need, especially since we already have a new one without a possession receiver with SSS gone and ILB with Orr retiring. 

I don't think the run d would fall off a cliff. But I undoubtedly believe we go from top 3-5 to outside the top 10. This isn't a scenario where we are debating giving a defensive player QB money like the Dolphins did with Suh, this is just being committed to putting the best team out there in 17' instead of hoping and praying miracles happen with development of unproven guys. 

agreed on all counts! A couple of added tweeks-

para 1- considering that the replacements to a 4 yr vet NT are both 3 yr DT and 2nd and first year rookies. Someone needs to anchor this line. Keep Williams

parra 2- 5yr/ 50 mil Do it Oz!

para 3- Doom, Arrington, Watson ( not Pitta ), Elam, Aiken, Powers, Wright, Zutta, (maybe Wagner), Smith Sr. Orr, 1 TE, 1 RB, gone

para-4 keep Wallace. get two corners, develop a Center. The young LB corp is gonna do fine! Add a RB, WR, if needed OT on Offense.

para 5- It all starts with shutting down the run. 80% of NFL teams, while throw more than run, would run the ball down your throat if you let them.

good post DH21

[law215]

The Ravens need talent of both sides of the ball. Without B Williams and Orr, the run defense will suffer. Mike Wallace, Webb, Dumervil are not worth losing B. Williams. Ravens need to keep their young good players instead of overpaid players.

[OzzieBisciotti]

We have so many holes on this team, and due to poor cap management/ failed drafts, this team is doomed every year- Flacco taking up elite money is also hurting us as well. Oz was successful when he didn't have to spend a lot on a qb- ever since he's had to allocate a lot of $$ to Flacco, the team has just gotten worse and worse (not even mentioning the bad drafts over the past five years). So Brandon Williams is going to pull a KO on us, and I think we also lose Wagner. I don't think people like to play for Harbs, and he's a dead coach walking because he's been losing more than he's winning- the team may appear to be stable, but we will have another down year this year as well- we don't make the playoffs two years from now - maybe not even then.

[Adreme]

57 minutes ago, law215 said:

The Ravens need talent of both sides of the ball. Without B Williams and Orr, the run defense will suffer. Mike Wallace, Webb, Dumervil are not worth losing B. Williams. Ravens need to keep their young good players instead of overpaid players.

It seems risky to decide to become worse at 3 positions to become better at one aspect of one position.

[sizzlingdoom]

Wagner is more irreplaceable than Brandon right now.

Agreed. Love them both, but with the emergence of Pierce, I agree

[#Nevermore]

  8 hours ago, ellicottraven said:

Wagner is more irreplaceable than Brandon right now.

I'd have to agree, but what is he looking to command? Rumors are that he could get 9-10 per year. While RT is just as important as LT these days, that is steep for a guy that really is only good in pass protection and a mediocre run blocker. 

So giving Wagner 9-10 per year is too much for a good pass protector and mediocre run blocker, but fine for a good run stuffer and mediocre pass rusher; but RT is just as important as LT?

[sizzlingdoom]

  8 hours ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

  9 hours ago, ellicottraven said:

Wagner is more irreplaceable than Brandon right now.

I'd have to agree, but what is he looking to command? Rumors are that he could get 9-10 per year. While RT is just as important as LT these days, that is steep for a guy that really is only good in pass protection and a mediocre run blocker. 

So giving Wagner 9-10 per year is too much for a good pass protector and mediocre run blocker, but fine for a good run stuffer and mediocre pass rusher; but RT is just as important as LT?

Exactly. I agree with you Nevermore. Not to mention he is better than a good pass protector and mediocre run blocker. Pretty sure pff rated him in the top 5 for all tackles multiple times in the past few years. Regardless of how people feel about their ratings, that is Very good. We cannot just let a VERY good Tackle go without having any sort of proven replacement. Especially with how our O performed last year. BWill is a monster and a favorite of mine but if there is a choice between the 2 it has to be Wagner imo. Pierce is a Monster and can essentially take over for BWill. We should have enough Bigs. Where's Carl Davis at? Timmy, Kufasi, Urban. We just drafted Willie Henry. Not saying it's easy to find another BWill, but we could also add another run stuffing NT in the mid to late rounds to all those names. Or hoepfully find another gem like Pierce. Good Olineman are way harder to find and keep. If we sign Wagner, and draft an awesome young mauling Center in the second like Elflein, our line will be a Monster and set for years. People can call me crazy if they want to, but I think Pierce can be just as good of a player as Brandon if not better.

[#Nevermore]

  7 hours ago, Chuckx999 said:

First cut to OLD slow players eating up cap money. Then get "old 3 and out Flacco" to help with cap space. He NOT worth what he's getting paid. I would rather see Flacco go. Offer Williams a good deal, but don't break the bank for him, save money for other players we need. We have let to many good players walk.

vague, quite vague. First Flacco is not going anywhere until after 2018 so 2 more years, time to end the pleading for something that many do not agree with you about, especially since its not going to happen.

Second, Williams is going to deal on a good deal for himself and his family, not on what he is "offered" in order for us, the Ravens or any other NFL owner thinks won't "break the bank" or save money for mo.
Certainly you can't expect a low ball offer to work.

The Ravens are in a much better place to work out deals this year than in the " KO " and "Nagta" FA timing. Williams is worth 10mil yr. and, as far as the NFL knows, worth more. The Ravens can afford a deal. Values for positions get set by competition. I believe he is worth top dollar from the Ravens, some may not agree. 5 yr /$50 mil make the offer OZ and i bet he stays.

As far as Wagner, again he can be kept. The question is what is he worth to the Ravens? His position should not command quite the dollar height of a NT. Hopefully he can be retained for 6.5 mil yr something like a 3 yr /$20 mil. make the offer OZ, if he walks he may not get more and might stick around. Otherwise Draft the big guy and Put Yanda back on the right side, we have been there before.

I also do not believe that the Wallace is the contract that the Ravens should give up to gain Williams back. It saves 5.5 in space, rather I would give up the Dumerville contract at almost the same 5.3.

So there are some facts and figures ( ballpark) as some ways to look at keeping them. its a total team situation agreed. However I would give up Dumervil, Guy and Powers to Keep Williams at this point in the careers. We might get a trade deal with Doom

Wagner will not be retained for 3/$20 million. He will command 8-10 million per year.

[#Nevermore]

I will concede that we are in fact very very good at drafting defensive lineman, but Williams has a huge cog for why our run defense was darn near impenetrable 3/4ths of the season and a top unit last year. 

Remove Williams from that picture and I think other guys don't nearly look as efficient. Barring the contract, it is 100% in our best interest to resign him to a $40-45 million deal over 5 years. 

The cap is very likely going up another 10-15 million. We will likely clear space of bloated contracts as well, such as Pitta, Doom, Arrington, etc. very likely we will have around $15-20m in space. 

The last thing we need after an 8-8 year where we were probably a corner, center and young pass rusher away from serious playoff contention is another new glaring need, especially since we already have a new one without a possession receiver with SSS gone and ILB with Orr retiring. 

I don't think the run d would fall off a cliff. But I undoubtedly believe we go from top 3-5 to outside the top 10. This isn't a scenario where we are debating giving a defensive player QB money like the Dolphins did with Suh, this is just being committed to putting the best team out there in 17' instead of hoping and praying miracles happen with development of unproven guys. 

I think we can stomach the loss of BWill. It will be harder to replace Orr in my opinion. I don't think we drop outside the top 7 in run defense. We had Brandon Williams the last 5 weeks of the season and we were atrocious in run defense. He is not the end all be all. We need to scheme better in the run game with or without him. We will continue to draft on the D-line and we will be solid. We have guys that can get the job done.

[Halshayeji]

2 hours ago, sizzlingdoom said:

Exactly. I agree with you Nevermore. Not to mention he is better than a good pass protector and mediocre run blocker. Pretty sure pff rated him in the top 5 for all tackles multiple times in the past few years. Regardless of how people feel about their ratings, that is Very good. We cannot just let a VERY good Tackle go without having any sort of proven replacement. Especially with how our O performed last year. BWill is a monster and a favorite of mine but if there is a choice between the 2 it has to be Wagner imo. Pierce is a Monster and can essentially take over for BWill. We should have enough Bigs. Where's Carl Davis at? Timmy, Kufasi, Urban. We just drafted Willie Henry. Not saying it's easy to find another BWill, but we could also add another run stuffing NT in the mid to late rounds to all those names. Or hoepfully find another gem like Pierce. Good Olineman are way harder to find and keep. If we sign Wagner, and draft an awesome young mauling Center in the second like Elflein, our line will be a Monster and set for years. People can call me crazy if they want to, but I think Pierce can be just as good of a player as Brandon if not better.

Pierce is certainly a gem but he's not ready to start. Your not crazy at all for thinking Pierce can be as good as Williams or maybe even better. You just excluded the fact that it's a process and at the moment it's not really close. Pierce has some developing to do and heck maybe in 1 year or maybe in 3 years his time will come but until then we need to keep Bwill. By that time, we can trade or release Bwill if Pierce proves he's consistent enough to start.

[Halshayeji]

1 hour ago, #Nevermore said:

I think we can stomach the loss of BWill. It will be harder to replace Orr in my opinion. I don't think we drop outside the top 7 in run defense. We had Brandon Williams the last 5 weeks of the season and we were atrocious in run defense. He is not the end all be all. We need to scheme better in the run game with or without him. We will continue to draft on the D-line and we will be solid. We have guys that can get the job done.

Well those last 5 weeks are the only reason it's not unanimous here to keep Williams. But keep in mind that the D was compensating for an injured J.Smith and more guys we dropping into coverage vs stacking the box. Also keep in mind, regardless of the kind of contract Williams signs his cap hit for this upcoming year shouldn't exceed 5 million because he will receive a nice signing bonus that will backload the contract a bit.

[sizzlingdoom]

  2 hours ago, sizzlingdoom said:

Exactly. I agree with you Nevermore. Not to mention he is better than a good pass protector and mediocre run blocker. Pretty sure pff rated him in the top 5 for all tackles multiple times in the past few years. Regardless of how people feel about their ratings, that is Very good. We cannot just let a VERY good Tackle go without having any sort of proven replacement. Especially with how our O performed last year. BWill is a monster and a favorite of mine but if there is a choice between the 2 it has to be Wagner imo. Pierce is a Monster and can essentially take over for BWill. We should have enough Bigs. Where's Carl Davis at? Timmy, Kufasi, Urban. We just drafted Willie Henry. Not saying it's easy to find another BWill, but we could also add another run stuffing NT in the mid to late rounds to all those names. Or hoepfully find another gem like Pierce. Good Olineman are way harder to find and keep. If we sign Wagner, and draft an awesome young mauling Center in the second like Elflein, our line will be a Monster and set for years. People can call me crazy if they want to, but I think Pierce can be just as good of a player as Brandon if not better.

Pierce is certainly a gem but he's not ready to start. Your not crazy at all for thinking Pierce can be as good as Williams or maybe even better. You just excluded the fact that it's a process and at the moment it's not really close. Pierce has some developing to do and heck maybe in 1 year or maybe in 3 years his time will come but until then we need to keep Bwill. By that time, we can trade or release Bwill if Pierce proves he's consistent enough to start.

I don't really understand. Before I state my points and questions, I will say this. I live in Ca and and the only games I got to see on my dvr and remind and watch plays over again were the prime time games. The others I had to watch at a pizza place. And I had beer in me for every game. BUT, to me it looks like Pierce was just about as disruptive as BWill this year. He had a couple sacks and to me it looks like he has as much or more pass rushing ability already. And I know he stuffs the run. And I remember multiple times this year just watching him walk an oline man 3-6 yards straight back into the back field. And he played all 16 games. I know he hasn't done it for as long, but I think he's just about there. And very well may be ready to man the every down role of our NT. Especially keeping the momentum from this season heading into the off season. I didn't exclude it because it's not always the same process for everyone. And to me Pierce proved he's ready. He's hungry and really seems as talented as anybody in the league at his position. He just needs more time on the field to prove himself and improve his game, which can top out at all pro level imo. Though true nosetackles don't really get much love at all. What a pick up this guy was.
Brandon Williams is literally going to make 16-20 times more than Pierce next year. Think about how crazy that is. Considering the position+Pierce+our current roster+the price tag for BWill coming up, I think we've gotta spend that 8-10 on something else. Wagner, S. Gilmore, Marshall.
Just wondering why you think Pierce is so far behind BWill

[jsarrocohome@yahoo.com]

Aint NO WAY Williams is worth 9 mill a year I would rather have a cb or a Great LB

[jsarrocohome@yahoo.com]

  13 hours ago, ellicottraven said:

Wagner is more irreplaceable than Brandon right now.

Agreed. Love them both, but with the emergence of Pierce, I agree

I agree also but neither is worth 9 mill ayear I would try to keep wagner at no more than 7 mill a year