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EdTheMythicalOne

A Tale of Second Round Picks...feast or famine?

106 posts in this topic

On 2/8/2017 at 1:37 PM, rmw10 said:

This is where the issue lies, in my opinion.  We got some quality players out of it which is great, but we haven't retained them.  I'd say KO was the only one where it was truly a money issues as to why he didn't stay.  Some other guys we might have made offers, but clearly not large enough offers that we truly wanted to retain them.

That begs the question - is a pick successful if we get a solid player for 3-4 years?  Or is it successful if we find a player that we actually want to be around for a 2nd contract?

I think both represent success. Being able to re-sign a drafted player that turns out to be  a solid or more type player is definitely a plus but   I also think it's a plus when that player isn't able to re-signed due to understandable reasons or more but the team receives a  comp pick for it.  The Ravens have lost good players from Torrey Smith, Paul Kruger, Arthur Jones, K.O, Pernell Mcphee, and etc but just about all of them netted them a comp pick 

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3 minutes ago, jazz1988 said:

I think both represent success. Being able to re-sign a drafted player that turns out to be  a solid or more type player is definitely a plus but   I also think it's a plus when that player isn't able to re-signed due to understandable reasons or more but the team receives a  comp pick for it.  The Ravens have lost good players from Torrey Smith, Paul Kruger, Arthur Jones, K.O, Pernell Mcphee, and etc but just about all of them netted them a comp pick 

Any chance you have time to see who we drafted with each comp pick? 

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On 2/8/2017 at 7:18 PM, usmccharles said:

I usually always give the FO the benefit of the doubt, but the KC pick i just dont get.  Zero production...unless you count penalties i guess.  I would at least think he would of been a good contributor on ST

Yeah, I have to say the KC pick has to be the biggest head scratchers for me atleast over the last few drafts dating back to 2014.

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2 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Any chance you have time to see who we drafted with each comp pick? 

 Kenneth Dixon,Willie Henry,Maurice Canady, Kyle  Juszczyk, Ricky Wagner, Pernell Mcphee, Leron McClain, Sam Koch,Edwin Mulitalo,Lorenzo Taliferro, Troy Smith,John Urschel, Tray Walker, Crockett Gilmore , Nick Boyle, Robert Myers and think there's more but not sure.

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29 minutes ago, RavensFanMania said:

Yeah, I have to say the KC pick has to be the biggest head scratchers for me atleast over the last few drafts dating back to 2014.

Questionable pick, but the team felt that they needed speed on this defense. I was thrown off by it because I didn't even know the guy all that much, but at the same time the Ravens need to own up and put him in places where he can succeed and not shift him from OLB/ILB in his first year. Let him take care of the rest, if he fails to do that then your questions about him are answered. 

Talking to ravensfan23, I honestly think we should give him a chance, not a lot of the guys who was picked before or after him were all that better. It was a weak 2nd round to say the least. 

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2 minutes ago, PurpleCity5 said:

Questionable pick, but the team felt that they needed speed on this defense. I was thrown off by it because I didn't even know the guy all that much, but at the same time the Ravens need to own up and put him in places where he can succeed and not shift him from OLB/ILB in his first year. Let him take care of the rest, if he fails to do that then your questions about him are answered. 

Talking to ravensfan23, I honestly think we should give him a chance, not a lot of the guys who was picked before or after him were all that better. It was a weak 2nd round to say the least. 

Cody Whitehair would have been a great pick. That being said, I agree, this book isn't closed on KC and we have no choice but to give him a chance.  Let's hope he shows something this year.  If the Ravens take Reuben Foster, we know what they think.

Edited by RavensFanMania
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2 minutes ago, RavensFanMania said:

Cody Whitehair would have been a great pick. That being said, I agree, this book isn't closed on KC and we have no choice but to give him a chance.  Let's hope he shows something this year.  If the Ravens take Reuben Foster, we know what they think.

Whitehair would've been a good pick there, but is the team thinking OL back-to-back when the pass rush got shredded by the likes of the Cleveland Browns? The team got exposed for their lack of speed there on the pass rush and in coverage and felt picking Correa would kill two birds with one stone, I was thrown off because I didn't even know much about him nor did I think of him as an option here, but I certainly wasn't surprised that we went for a speed guy. 

The Ravens could take someone like Foster but I would be stunned if they do so and if they do that doesn't mean Correa is history considering that they could opt to assume the OLB role they drafted him for. 

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13 minutes ago, PurpleCity5 said:

Whitehair would've been a good pick there, but is the team thinking OL back-to-back when the pass rush got shredded by the likes of the Cleveland Browns? The team got exposed for their lack of speed there on the pass rush and in coverage and felt picking Correa would kill two birds with one stone, I was thrown off because I didn't even know much about him nor did I think of him as an option here, but I certainly wasn't surprised that we went for a speed guy. 

The Ravens could take someone like Foster but I would be stunned if they do so and if they do that doesn't mean Correa is history considering that they could opt to assume the OLB role they drafted him for. 

I would agree with this and I also believe if he slips to our spot in the 2nd round, which he won't, we would have to take him.

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48 minutes ago, RavensFanMania said:

I would agree with this and I also believe if he slips to our spot in the 2nd round, which he won't, we would have to take him.

If he slips that far I think we could realistically trade up for him if we think he's that good, which he certainly is but I don't think the team needs to hit on an ILB pick as badly as they need to hit on a CB/OLB pick. 

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Just now, PurpleCity5 said:

If he slips that far I think we could realistically trade up for him if we think he's that good, which he certainly is but I don't think the team needs to hit on an ILB pick as badly as they need to hit on a CB/OLB pick. 

Totally agree

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On 2/9/2017 at 9:14 AM, Ravensfan23 said:

He was drafted to help provide speed on the outside pass rush, which he still can honestly, not sure why some many seem to think he's just worthless outside, but while that was part of the role they wanted him to fill, from day one they lined him up at ILB and asked him to learn every LB position on the team and I think it eventually became too much for  him mentally. 

Going back to the pass rush aspect of things. Correa isn't a natural pass rusher and you knew that coming out of Bosie. He's an effort pass rusher and a guy who has a really good first step that allowed him to convert speed to power vs weaker OTs. However in the NFL he has to become much stronger, which he definitely can and he has to maintain that great motor. I said it before the Ravens drafted him and I'll say it now. He's almost Identical to Clay Matthews. If you look at Clay coming out of USC he wasn't and isn't a pure pass rusher like a Von Miller. The Packers moved him around and allowed him to blitz more so than just put his hands in the dirt or get in his bike stance and hunt. Clay has decent moves he can pull out every now and then but much of his production comes from effort and the fact that the Packers move him around to create favorable match-ups. The year they tried to make him a full time OLB, I think it was 11' he had probably his worse seasons because that's not his game. The same is true for Correa. When you draft a guy like that you must have a plan for him and I'm not sure Pees is the type of DC to have that type of plan. Not a bash Pees moment, just my opinion. The Ravens need to put KC in position where he's moving all over the defense and the offense doesn't know if he's dropping or blitzing. Just asking him to line up and rush vs OTs all game isn't gonna garner much success consistently. He's the type of guy you just allow to play like his hair is on fire, almost like a rover on defense. He's good enough against the run on the edge to play outside on early downs, but as a pass rusher he should be moved around but he doesn't possess pass rush moves that allow him to win consistently outside. Not saying he's Clay or even AD to give a hometown feel, but he has to be used like those guys or else it's just a waste. That's on the Ravens, not the player. 

i have to disagree strongly that pees isnt a guy who can make something out of correa. kc and matthews is a very good comparison but matthews is and was simply better coming out, stronger, more refined, although less explosive. 

look at what pees did with pernell mcphee, mcphee is a solid edge rusher on his own but pees MADE him an absolute wrecking machine by moving him around a ton and basing essentially the entire nickel package around him. pees does well with the front seven, his issue has always been about rolling coverages and needing strong communication on the back end to make his secondary work. pees is a DC that i would fully trust to make correa look good in a scheme. 

i also maintain that correas rookie season was not nearly as bad as some make it out to be, he earned the top ILB spot almost right away by being a total standout in camp, he stepped on some toes in the process and some folks probably convinced him to tone it down, and then zach orr suddenly bust out as possibly the 2nd/3rd best defender on the team which was totally unexpected. 

KC looked solid in little opportunities as an ILB, but he isnt cut out to just be an edge rusher, and couldnt bypass 2 of the top 5 ILBs in the league this season. i really expect that with him having a clear path to a starting spot he can clamp down on the technique and playbook and take a bigger role. i think hell have a breakout season within the next 2 years, mostly as a traditional linebacker who blitzes often.

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On 09/02/2017 at 1:43 AM, jazz1988 said:

 6 tackles , 1 pass deflection and a forced fumble is not zero production.

For a second round pick it is 

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5 hours ago, arnie_uk said:

For a second round pick it is 

A rookie is still a rookie no matter the round to me.Jimmy Smith , Brandon Williams, Paul Kruger, and etc didn't do much in their first year in The NFl. Ravens fans were calling Smith a bust in his second season in The NFl  Correa didn't meet up to fans expectation and that's understandable but that doesn't mean he dissappointed the coaches or that he won't be something in this league.

Edited by jazz1988
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8 hours ago, jazz1988 said:

A rookie is still a rookie no matter the round to me.Jimmy Smith , Brandon Williams, Paul Kruger, and etc didn't do much in their first year in The NFl. Ravens fans were calling Smith a bust in his second season in The NFl  Correa didn't meet up to fans expectation and that's understandable but that doesn't mean he dissappointed the coaches or that he won't be something in this league.

Great points.  But I highly doubt they expected this little of production 

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On 2/11/2017 at 0:57 AM, JoeyFlex5 said:

i have to disagree strongly that pees isnt a guy who can make something out of correa. kc and matthews is a very good comparison but matthews is and was simply better coming out, stronger, more refined, although less explosive. 

look at what pees did with pernell mcphee, mcphee is a solid edge rusher on his own but pees MADE him an absolute wrecking machine by moving him around a ton and basing essentially the entire nickel package around him. pees does well with the front seven, his issue has always been about rolling coverages and needing strong communication on the back end to make his secondary work. pees is a DC that i would fully trust to make correa look good in a scheme. 

i also maintain that correas rookie season was not nearly as bad as some make it out to be, he earned the top ILB spot almost right away by being a total standout in camp, he stepped on some toes in the process and some folks probably convinced him to tone it down, and then zach orr suddenly bust out as possibly the 2nd/3rd best defender on the team which was totally unexpected. 

KC looked solid in little opportunities as an ILB, but he isnt cut out to just be an edge rusher, and couldnt bypass 2 of the top 5 ILBs in the league this season. i really expect that with him having a clear path to a starting spot he can clamp down on the technique and playbook and take a bigger role. i think hell have a breakout season within the next 2 years, mostly as a traditional linebacker who blitzes often.

Honestly that's probably the worse example you could give to support Pees in this area. Again i want to make it clear that i'm not bashing Pees. But there is no way he made Mcphee into anything and i'd go as far to say he may have stunted Mcphee's growth a bit. It was Chuck Pagano who moved Mcphee around so much as a rookie and was creative in using him to get pressure. It wasn't just moving Mcphee inside, it was the way Pagano got him matched up with 1on1 battles because of the movement of others. Whether it was twist, stunts, blitzing or whatever. Again no knock to Pees, but he's more of a basic 4 man pressure DC, so when he took over it wasn't many games up front to get guys free, so even when Mcphee was moved inside, he was overmatched because bigger guys were able to get there hands on him and basically take him out. That's why his sack totals went from like 6 down to 2. Then in 2014 his numbers went back up with Suggs and Doom pulling much of the attention. Again no knock to Pees but i'd have to greatly disagree that Pees made Mcphee a wrecking ball. 

Imo Pees just lacks the creativity to get the most out of a guy like KC. It's not about Matthews being better, I think everyone can see that. It's about putting KC in position to succeed much like the Packers did with Matthews. That doesn't make Pees a poor DC, it's just that KC isn't the type of guy who he'll get the most out of imo because he'll ask him to win 1on1 and that's not his game. I think he'll use him as a hybrid type, but It's not just moving him from inside to outside that will get the most out of him. It's the way you use him in blitz packages and how you can take up blockers and allow him to rush vs RBs or roam in coverage. Again watch any Clay Matthews highlight reel, if you see 5 good pass rush moves i'd be surprised. He's just not a pure pass rusher in the mold of a Suggs and the Packers don't ask him to be. He's just allowed to roam the defense to make plays and I'm not sure Pees would allow KC or any other player to do that. 

Now what I do agree with is the bold part. I think KC will have a really strong season as a ILB. I was impressed with his awareness in zone coverage and how he trusted his eyes. Even tough you could see him thinking a lot during plays which caused him to be a step slow in some cases, you could still see his smarts and quick reaction times. I think he'll be one of those guys who wow reporters with his reshaped body during OTAs because I think he'll work on his body a lot this offseason. I wouldn't be surprised to here that he's one of the guys who is at the Castle everyday getting work in. 

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That wasn't meant to be related to pees, I used McPhee as the example and I was just talking about KC on another note. And McPhee was mostly used as a 5T as a rookie and injuries stunted his growth, was nothing to do with the scheme. Pees used McPhee as an OLB, 5T, 3T, and even as a 0T in his final year here, he got very creative with McPhee 

im not a big pees guy anyway, but I do think he does well with the front seven

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On 2/9/2017 at 10:27 AM, rmcjacket23 said:

Well, yes and no. Dwan Edwards is the perfect example of why that type of thinking doesn't always apply. He had an 11 year career, but he was far more productive in the back half with Buffalo/Carolina than he was in Baltimore.

Was largely a non factor for his first 3 years in the league (32 tackles, 0 sacks in 25 regular season games), started playing decently his final two years in Baltimore, but his best years were definitely in Buffalo and Carolina.

So did we draft a good player in terms of total career? Yes, but does that really matter if he's not a good player for THIS team? Debatable. It was a bit different back then, but if we drafted a guy in the 2nd round who gave us the same production as Edwards did in his first three years, literally everybody would be trying to run him out of town. We don't even tolerate one injury from a rookie or one season of being irrelevant... imagine 3 years of that? For perspective, Dwan Edwards tenure in Baltimore from a statistical aspect is about the equivalent of Terrence Cody's tenure in Baltimore. So shouldn't they be evaluated as the same if they produced as the same and were picked in the same round?

 

My point is that even if a guy doesn't perform up to his career best for the Ravens (and that could be for a number of reasons, guys in front of him, injuries early on, etc) but he goes on to be an NFL player for a decade or so, that means you drafted a pretty good player. Just because the Ravens didn't get the most out of him doesn't mean it was a bad pick.

A lot of the guys didn't turn out to be better players for other teams after they were with the Ravens. But in the rare instance that it did happen I think we have to look at the factors around the player and wonder if the coaches we had at the time just didn't know how to get the best out of the players they had? Or maybe it took a guy a bit longer to click and realize what it takes to be an NFL player.

I saw somebody else saying Paul Kruger was a good pick. I disagree. He turned in one good half season with this team that also carried over into the playoffs...just so happened to be his walk year. He then parlayed that into a huge contract with the Browns and only turned in one good season with them before fading into obscurity and being cut..only to latch on with New Orleans and be a non-factor there. 1 & 1/2 good seasons in the NFL means it was a good pick? If he was a later round pick then maybe, but this guy was a 2nd round pick after all.

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1 hour ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

My point is that even if a guy doesn't perform up to his career best for the Ravens (and that could be for a number of reasons, guys in front of him, injuries early on, etc) but he goes on to be an NFL player for a decade or so, that means you drafted a pretty good player. Just because the Ravens didn't get the most out of him doesn't mean it was a bad pick.

A lot of the guys didn't turn out to be better players for other teams after they were with the Ravens. But in the rare instance that it did happen I think we have to look at the factors around the player and wonder if the coaches we had at the time just didn't know how to get the best out of the players they had? Or maybe it took a guy a bit longer to click and realize what it takes to be an NFL player.

I saw somebody else saying Paul Kruger was a good pick. I disagree. He turned in one good half season with this team that also carried over into the playoffs...just so happened to be his walk year. He then parlayed that into a huge contract with the Browns and only turned in one good season with them before fading into obscurity and being cut..only to latch on with New Orleans and be a non-factor there. 1 & 1/2 good seasons in the NFL means it was a good pick? If he was a later round pick then maybe, but this guy was a 2nd round pick after all.

1. It doesn't mean he was a bad pick for the NFL, but it certainly means he was a bad pick for the team. There's no scenario where anybody could say that he produced quality value as a 2nd round pick for the Ravens. Did he produce quality value for the Bills/Panthers? Sure, but not for the Ravens. 

As I said, he was basically the same player as Terrence Cody. We can't say one was a bust and the other was a good pick, because the only thing that matters for the team drafting that player is how well they play for THAT team. If Matt Elam goes on to be a stud for another team, that doesn't mean he was a good pick by the Ravens. It means the Ravens spent a 1st rounder on a guy who rarely played well for them and then played great elsewhere.

2. As far as Kruger, again, just depends on expectations. I think 2nd round picks should be consistent starters, yet unspectacular players for the most part. Torrey Smith is a guy that I think fit the mold of what I would expect a 2nd round pick to be. Good player, quality contributor, not a franchise-type guy that you want to lead that particular unit in the future.

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10 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

That wasn't meant to be related to pees, I used McPhee as the example and I was just talking about KC on another note. And McPhee was mostly used as a 5T as a rookie and injuries stunted his growth, was nothing to do with the scheme. Pees used McPhee as an OLB, 5T, 3T, and even as a 0T in his final year here, he got very creative with McPhee 

im not a big pees guy anyway, but I do think he does well with the front seven

I hope i'm wrong, I just don't see it right now. I think he'll definitely move KC around, but i don't think his blitz packages nor the design of the front 4 pass rush is creative enough. Maybe it's not even him, maybe that's the job of the Dline coach to develop that scheme. But the pass rush under Pees has been pretty basic in terms of how pressure is generated. If guys can win 1 on 1 then the pass rush is decent but most of the guys who have been drafted under Pees aren't really great pass rushers. They are guys who get pressure with hustle and games, which is why the pass rush usually sucks without any either Suggs or Doom. Now Pees certainly has his moment when he's using games up front and usually it's successful, but I don't see it consistently. 

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On 2/13/2017 at 9:03 AM, rmcjacket23 said:

1. It doesn't mean he was a bad pick for the NFL, but it certainly means he was a bad pick for the team. There's no scenario where anybody could say that he produced quality value as a 2nd round pick for the Ravens. Did he produce quality value for the Bills/Panthers? Sure, but not for the Ravens. 

As I said, he was basically the same player as Terrence Cody. We can't say one was a bust and the other was a good pick, because the only thing that matters for the team drafting that player is how well they play for THAT team. If Matt Elam goes on to be a stud for another team, that doesn't mean he was a good pick by the Ravens. It means the Ravens spent a 1st rounder on a guy who rarely played well for them and then played great elsewhere.

2. As far as Kruger, again, just depends on expectations. I think 2nd round picks should be consistent starters, yet unspectacular players for the most part. Torrey Smith is a guy that I think fit the mold of what I would expect a 2nd round pick to be. Good player, quality contributor, not a franchise-type guy that you want to lead that particular unit in the future.

Dwan Edwards was better than Terrence Cody, Cody barely produced if/when he was healthy and nobody wanted him after we was done with the Ravens. Pretty much tells you all you need to know right there.

Kruger hardly produced anything at all save for one season with the Ravens. If your argument is going to be that Dwan wasn't a good pick because his best seasons were not with the Ravens, then how can Kruger be considered a good pick when his best season (singular) came with the Browns? Kruger was not a consistent starter for this club either.

There is little to no chance Elam goes on to be a stud for any other team. He'd be lucky if he even gets a job after he's done here. The guy can't cover, he can't tackle, and recently he's struggled to be healthy. Those are three pretty big knocks on a guy that is supposed to be a safety valve for your defense.

I think guys like Sharper and Torrey were very good picks for the Ravens.

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11 hours ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

Dwan Edwards was better than Terrence Cody, Cody barely produced if/when he was healthy and nobody wanted him after we was done with the Ravens. Pretty much tells you all you need to know right there.

Kruger hardly produced anything at all save for one season with the Ravens. If your argument is going to be that Dwan wasn't a good pick because his best seasons were not with the Ravens, then how can Kruger be considered a good pick when his best season (singular) came with the Browns? Kruger was not a consistent starter for this club either.

There is little to no chance Elam goes on to be a stud for any other team. He'd be lucky if he even gets a job after he's done here. The guy can't cover, he can't tackle, and recently he's struggled to be healthy. Those are three pretty big knocks on a guy that is supposed to be a safety valve for your defense.

I think guys like Sharper and Torrey were very good picks for the Ravens.

1. That would depend on what you think his best season was. If you think his best season is strictly based on the number of sacks he had in a season, then yes, his best season was with the Browns. If you factored in the fact that he was a part-time player with the Ravens compared to a full time starter who was playing 75-80% or more of snaps in Cleveland for the first two years, then no, his best season wouldn't have been in Cleveland.

2. I strongly suggest you go back and look at what Edwards did (or in this case, didn't) do when he was in Baltimore. You mentioned health with Cody, yet compared to Dwan's time in Baltimore, Cody was Brett Favre.

He averaged 8 games a season his first three years here, meaning, on average, half the time he wasn't available to play, and he missed the entire 2008 season with injury.

In actuality, they both played the exact same number of regular season games, with 57. It took Dwan almost two seasons longer in order to play that many games. And given that neither was a pass rusher (Dwan had 2 career sacks in Baltimore), the difference between the two in terms of tackles is about a half a tackle a game.

So, sure, Dwan was a half a tackle a game better than Cody. And while I agree that Edwards was in higher demand in FA than Cody, lets not pretend like Dwan got some big money deal from Buffalo either. He made roughly $5M for two years of work there.

Edited by rmcjacket23
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On 2/15/2017 at 9:03 AM, rmcjacket23 said:

1. That would depend on what you think his best season was. If you think his best season is strictly based on the number of sacks he had in a season, then yes, his best season was with the Browns. If you factored in the fact that he was a part-time player with the Ravens compared to a full time starter who was playing 75-80% or more of snaps in Cleveland for the first two years, then no, his best season wouldn't have been in Cleveland.

2. I strongly suggest you go back and look at what Edwards did (or in this case, didn't) do when he was in Baltimore. You mentioned health with Cody, yet compared to Dwan's time in Baltimore, Cody was Brett Favre.

He averaged 8 games a season his first three years here, meaning, on average, half the time he wasn't available to play, and he missed the entire 2008 season with injury.

In actuality, they both played the exact same number of regular season games, with 57. It took Dwan almost two seasons longer in order to play that many games. And given that neither was a pass rusher (Dwan had 2 career sacks in Baltimore), the difference between the two in terms of tackles is about a half a tackle a game.

So, sure, Dwan was a half a tackle a game better than Cody. And while I agree that Edwards was in higher demand in FA than Cody, lets not pretend like Dwan got some big money deal from Buffalo either. He made roughly $5M for two years of work there.

I base it on the entire career of a player drafted, not necessarily what they did as a Raven. Given that Dwan Edwards was a better player as a Raven and then went on to play for many more years in the league and be a decent NFL player means he was a much better talent than Mt. Cody. Also remember that Cody was a starter at NT when he actually was healthy and Ngata moved to LDT/LDE in that alignment. I think I made my evaluation process abundantly clear. If you draft a player that is more than just a special teams player for his career and he spends a decade or more in the NFL and gets some significant snaps, regardless if he only played out his rookie contract with the Ravens, that means they drafted a good player. You also have to remember who was on this team when Edwards got here. He was behind a lot of guys. Not so with Cody. Had be been decent and healthy he would have started.

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13 hours ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

I base it on the entire career of a player drafted, not necessarily what they did as a Raven. Given that Dwan Edwards was a better player as a Raven and then went on to play for many more years in the league and be a decent NFL player means he was a much better talent than Mt. Cody. Also remember that Cody was a starter at NT when he actually was healthy and Ngata moved to LDT/LDE in that alignment. I think I made my evaluation process abundantly clear. If you draft a player that is more than just a special teams player for his career and he spends a decade or more in the NFL and gets some significant snaps, regardless if he only played out his rookie contract with the Ravens, that means they drafted a good player. You also have to remember who was on this team when Edwards got here. He was behind a lot of guys. Not so with Cody. Had be been decent and healthy he would have started.

I mean cool, but it seems kind of odd to rate how good a draft pick somebody was by how he performed on a team that didn't draft him.

Again, that's like the Atlanta Falcons saying that Brett Favre was a good draft pick for them. Its kind of hard to be a good draft pick when you never actually play or play well for that team, regardless of how you did elsewhere.

 

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2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I mean cool, but it seems kind of odd to rate how good a draft pick somebody was by how he performed on a team that didn't draft him.

Again, that's like the Atlanta Falcons saying that Brett Favre was a good draft pick for them. Its kind of hard to be a good draft pick when you never actually play or play well for that team, regardless of how you did elsewhere.

 

Not really like the Favre situation. A lot of people think Favre is some Cinderella good ol' guy. The reason why Atlanta ditched him is for his raunchy side off the field. They didn't trust him. The talent in the arm obviously was there, it was the head (pun intended as well) that was the issue.

The thing is, we are saying is this PLAYER a good PICK? If you picked a guy and he plays on your team and performs decently enough to get himself a job for another team and then has a long NFL career, that means you picked a good player. He has/had talent. This is better than drafting a guy on your team that barely plays and then fades into obscurity because he has no talent to hang in the NFL anymore.

Of the players I mentioned, most of the ones I rate as being a good pick that had more success elsewhere were also at least decent players for the Ravens before they left. A lot of them actually played their best years with the Ravens.

So is a player a bad pick if he plays 4-5 seasons with the Ravens and then plays 6 years more with other teams and performs just as well or better than he did with the Ravens?

In the case of Dwan Edwards, maybe the coaches were the problem and didn't know how to use him effectively? He certainly wasn't a bad player. He was no Hall of Famer, but he was good.

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I feel like Ozzie has a 50% track record on 2nd rounders. However, it's interesting that only one was resigned. Maybe Ozzie thinks 2nd rounders are just complementary starters. However, not everyone can get a contract extension if Ozzie keeps getting good players to keep throughout the draft. However, it's different to see Ozzie spending more money in free agency since the recent drafts haven't produce a lot of gems.

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On 3/9/2017 at 3:35 AM, Yatagarasu said:

I feel like Ozzie has a 50% track record on 2nd rounders. However, it's interesting that only one was resigned. Maybe Ozzie thinks 2nd rounders are just complementary starters. However, not everyone can get a contract extension if Ozzie keeps getting good players to keep throughout the draft. However, it's different to see Ozzie spending more money in free agency since the recent drafts haven't produce a lot of gems.

I would agree with that. They all haven't been great and they all haven't been terrible.

I don't think it is how Ozzie views these players. Just about all of the good ones were good enough to be a starter for any team in the NFL and it comes down to what the Ravens have available to spend, what they have in house, and what is available on the FA market and in the draft. In that sense for the most part Ozzie has been pretty good at replacing the talent that has walked out the door.

When Jamie Sharper left he was replaced by Ed Hartwell. When Hartwell left he was replaced by Tommy Polley for a year and then Bart Scott, when Ray Lewis left he replaced him with Daryl Smith and drafted C.J. Mosley.

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Okay, here's one last thing about the Terrence Cody/Dwan Edwards debate.

Both players played 5 seasons with the Ravens.

Terrence Cody:

G: 57 GS: 21 PD: 2 FF:0 FR: 0 TACKLES: 46 AST TACKLES: 46 SACKS:

Career after the Ravens: None.

Dwan Edwards:

G: 56 GS: 23 PD: 4 INT: 1: FF: 1 FR: 2 TACKLES 89 AST TACKLES: 30 SACKS: 2

Career after the Ravens: 2 Seasons with Buffalo and 4 seasons with Carolina.

Clearly Dwan Edwards was the better talent while with the Ravens and in the NFL. Part of Dwan's plight is that they played him all over the line and he was behind some other players for most of his career and those players being:

DT: Kelly Gregg, DT: Ma'ake Kemoeatu, DE: Anthony Weaver (fellow 2nd round pick), DE: Marques Douglas, DL: Aubreyo Franklin, DT: Haloti Ngata, DE: Trevor Price, DL: Justin Bannan.

In Terrence Cody's case in his first year he was behind several other players, but immediately in 2010 he was handed the starting job. He so underwhelmed that he lost the job to the second coming of Ma'ake Kemoeatu at age 33 in the last season of his career in 2011. Then Cody couldn't stay on the field and when he was on the field he never impressed. The way was paved for him to be a starter and he just couldn't handle it. He was so bad that no other team is even interested in him as a rotational player even with his massive size.

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On 2/10/2017 at 11:08 PM, RavensFanMania said:

Yeah, I have to say the KC pick has to be the biggest head scratchers for me atleast over the last few drafts dating back to 2014.

We got cute and missed out on Noah Spence who had a great season while KC did what??

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On 3/12/2017 at 9:04 PM, Purple Punishment said:

We got cute and missed out on Noah Spence who had a great season while KC did what??

He had almost the same numbers as Judon with Judon playing far fewer snaps so I would not exactly call it a great season and the players they got instead made that a very good trade.  Judging a pick after the first year though is moronic especially when you do not draft said player to start right away.

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On 2/8/2017 at 3:43 AM, EdTheMythicalOne said:

I've been seeing a lot of posts in articles written and just on the comments and boards here in general about how the Ravens seem to be whiffing on a lot of upper tier picks recently, especially the second round. This got me to thinking...have the Ravens ever drafted well with their second round picks? I plan to post all of the second round picks since the team's inception and let you, the fans decide:

1996: 2nd round: CB: DeRon Jenkins...AKA: "toast." He played four seasons with the Ravens, never a starter, and in his last season with this team was relegated to Special Teams. Hung in for two more unimpressive seasons with SD and TEN.

1997: 2nd Round: LB: Jamie Sharper: Was a 5 year starter with Baltimore and really started to click in his final season with the team. He wasn't a supremely disruptive force in his time with Baltimore but they got a 5 year starter out of the pick and that's exactly what you want out of a high pick.

1997: 2nd Round: S: Kim Herring: Was a full time starter in 2 of his 4 years with the team and put up his best season in his walk year. Cashed in on a big contract with the Rams where he continued to be a good starter before the injury bug bit him hard. I don't think he provided as much value as Sharper did.

1998: 2nd Round: WR: Patrick Johnson: Supremely fast (he once beat Olympic dynamo Carl Lewis in a race) but could never get open or catch a ball. If your first thought when reading the name listed was "WHO?" then you kind of answer the question of feast or famine.

1999: No 2nd round pick.

2000: No 2nd round pick.

2001: 2nd Round: CB: Gary Baxter: Baxter was a 3 year full time starter in his four seasons with Baltimore. At 6'2'' 204lbs he was a force to be reckoned with and paired up extremely well opposite Chris McAlister. He played very well for us and cashed in big with Cleveland but injuries caught up with him as well and derailed his career. I presonally think this was a good pick.

2002: 2nd Round: DL: Anthony Weaver: Was a 4 year full time starter in each of his seasons with the team. He was a disruptive force as he caused fumbles, swatted away passes, and did get to the QB a bit. He went on to be another 3 year full time starter for Houston before a shoulder injury ended his career.

2003: No 2nd Round Pick

2004: 2nd Round: DT: Dwan Edwards: Edwards was a rotational player for the first three seasons and then became a regular starter for the final two seasons here with Baltimore, played two seasons with Buffalo as a starter and then four more seasons with Carolina as a starter and then rotational guy that saw plenty of snaps until his final season with them in 2015. He was better in his time after a Raven, especially with Carolina when he became a pass rushing threat. While we didn't get all the value out of him that he had, his success elsewhere and 11 year career I think proves that he was a good pick.

2005: 2nd Round Pick: Dan Cody: Cody was a hyped pick but unfortunately barely ever played due to blowing out his knee in camp almost as soon as we got him in camp. This pick was a bust simply because we never got to see him play.

2005: 2nd Round Pick: OT: Adam Terry: Terry had the looks, a big guy at 6'8'' 330lbs he had the makings of a monster mauler type. Unfortunately he didn't have the heart or durability to ever fulfill that promise. He spent four unimpressive seasons as a back up/situational starter for us before missing all of a season and then playing 2 games for SD.

2006: 2nd Round Pick: OG: Chris Chester: At 6'3'' 300lbs. and being a former TE, he had the athleticism the Ravens were looking for, but wasn't as physical as he needed to be in our system at the time. He was a full time starter for the team in the three of his last five seasons with the team and then went on to be a full time starter for the rest of his career which was 4 more years with Washington and 2 more with Atlanta. He was a good player overall, just didn't fit our scheme at the time.

2007: No Second Round Pick

2008: 2nd Round Pick: RB: Ray Rice: Don't think I need to say too much here. Without Rice we probably don't win the second SB. Unfortunately an off the field domestic abuse issue forced his premature departure with this team and as a result cost him the rest of his career.

2009: 2nd Round Pick: DE/OLB: Paul Kruger: Part of Kruger's issue is that the Ravens couldn't decide if he was an End or an OLB in our system and Kruger didn't thrive in any as a starter. He found success in his last two seasons, especially in his final season as a situational pass rusher and then starter down the stretch and in the playoffs for the Ravens. Cashed in BIG with the Browns where in three seasons he turned in only one good one and was ultimately cut before signing on with the Saints to have yet another poor season.

2010: 2nd Round Pick: OLB: Sergio Kindle: Ouch. We never got to see what kind of pass rushing monster Kindle could be because almost right after we drafted him he "slept walked" after drinking a lot at a party and fell down a flight of stairs which fractured his skull and left him with some permanent hearing loss. But that's okay because we had ANOTHER 2nd round pick in 2010, right?

2010: 2nd Round Pick: DT/NT: Terrence Cody: AKA: "Mt. Cody" was a massive body that the Ravens envisioned eating up blockers in the middle of the defense and allowing everyone else to roam free. Unfortunately Cody ate lots of other things. At nearly 400lbs perhaps his combine numbers should have said something to the Ravens as he did only 19 reps of 225lbs. Add in injury issues and you got a big disappointment figuratively and literally speaking. Ouchx2.

2011: 2nd Round Pick: WR: Torrey Smith: Paired up with big arm QB Joe Flacco Torrey used his great speed to very good results in this offense and becoming the ONLY drafted WR by the Ravens to go over 1,000 yards in a season. Able to make big time plays and score the football he was a full time starter in each of his four seasons in Baltimore. Due a big pay raise, he cashed in big in FA with the 49ers and has had two lackluster seasons with them.

2012: 2nd Round Pick: OG: Kelechi Osemele: He may be one of the best Guards in the game right now as a sheer massive mauler and was a full time starter in each of his four seasons with the Ravens and was credited for the turn around in Oakland in his first full season with them. If nagging injuries don't become more bothersome moving forward he may be an all time great as he's missed at least some playing time in each year following his first with the Ravens.

2013: 2nd Round Pick: MLB: Arthur Brown: Brown never made it passed Special Teams contributor in his three seasons with the Ravens before they finally gave up on him and he then spent 2016 between the Jets and Jags as a special teamer as well.

2014: 2nd Round Pick: DT: Timmy Jernigan: Jernigan is a bit of an enigma right now as he at times shows flashes of becoming a disruptive force from the interior line, but getting derailed by stupid penalties or just lack of production. He's become a full time starter in his third season with the Ravens and it will be interesting to see if it finally clicks for him in his next season. If it does plan on Jernigan walking for a huge pay day as big time pass rushing threats from his position are rare commodities.

2015: 2nd Round Pick: TE: Maxx Williams: Williams like Jernigan is a question mark right now, when on the field he's shown flashes of being the Todd Heap-like playmaker the Ravens thought they were getting. But nagging injuries in his first season kept him off the field and a major injury kept him completely off the field in 2016. He will need to stay healthy and regain his form next season. It will be a big make or break year for him IMO.

2016: 2nd Round Pick: LB: Kamalei Correa: An under the radar pick, the Ravens had fans questioning the pick from the onset even though pundits around praised how well Correa shows up on film. Perhaps they should have questioned the competition level he faced. Admittedly he does look good to my eyes on his college game tape, but now he's going up against the best of the best. He was hyped so much but other than getting into scrums with veterans (including one that broke one of Dennis Pitta's fingers/thumb) he made literally no noise. Thinking his game doesn't quite match up for a outside rushing threat and an injury forcing Zach Orr to retire there is talk of KC moving to ILB. He got limited playing time in his rookie season partially due to unimpressive play and a major injury. It will be interesting to see just what he turns into going forward.

 

Some hits and some misses and some still unknown. But only Rice resigned... I'm still hopeful that Williams and Correa may pan out.

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