EdTheMythicalOne

A Tale of Second Round Picks...feast or famine?

109 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, usmccharles said:

I usually always give the FO the benefit of the doubt, but the KC pick i just dont get. Basically Zero production...unless you count penalties i guess.  I would at least think he would of been a good contributor on ST

 

2 minutes ago, jazz1988 said:

 6 tackles , 1 pass deflection and a forced fumble is not zero production.

Fixed.  But thats cool, didnt know he had a FF

Edited by usmccharles
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58 minutes ago, jazz1988 said:

 6 tackles , 1 pass deflection and a forced fumble is not zero production.

That small sample of production came on a total of 48 snaps. That's like a full game's worth of defensive snaps. Reports was he started to turn the corner in practice and earning the start in the NYJ game pretty such showed that. Than he got hurt the next week in practice and that basically derailed his season. He's gonna have to put in a lot of work this season, but I expect him to be the starting ILB and it'll actually help him because it'll force the coaches to keep him in one position so he can focus on perfecting his craft. I thought the Ravens asked him to do too much in learning the OLB and ILB positions last year. This will be a huge offseason for him. 

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I read an interesting article today that suggested implementing the 4-3 and amassing the personnel that's currently onboard roster approach. Made perfect sense to me. Ebonybird. 

 

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2 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

In the modern, salary capped, free agent NFL I don't think you can necessarily knock a team for not resigning a draft pick.

Imo whether a pick was good or bad should only be judged by how the player performed during their time here. I don't think you should dock points if you don't give the guy a 2nd contract. 

For me, if you get quality contributions for 3-4 years on a cheap rookie deal that's really good. If you get a cheap starter playing at a pro bowl level for 3-4 years that's great (varying degrees depending on level of contribution)....

 

Whether or not they get the 2nd contract and how they perform on said contract has nothing to do with the quality of the draft pick.... that's a separate evaluation of the GM. 

All that does is tell me whether or not the Ravens got the maximum return on their great pick or not. You're picking assets... and unfortunately with a cap you can't always return those assets.

Like Ray Rice was a GREAT draft pick. In hindsight it was a bad contract. What ended up happening doesn't effect the quality of the pick for me though. We got 3 solid years of among the best all purpose RBs in the league for a 2nd rounder. Awesome, awesome pick. 

With that in mind KO was a great pick imo. Kruger was a very good pick. His contributions in 2012 were irreplaceable. Upshaw was a good pick. Torrey was a great pick, etc...

I agree with your thinking on this. The salary cap has made a lot of difference in the NFL. Not re-signing a draft pick does not negate the quality of the pick. Retention of the great picks is a different challenge for the FO due to the dead money we have had to carry lately and Joe's big contract. I think we've had more than our fair share of salary cap casualties recently. I really hated to see Torrey, Kruger and Jarret Johnson leave the fold. To me, I'd rather lose a free agent like Boldin than a drafted Raven because of the return on the investment (ROI). Hopefully, the dead money thing will improve now that Pitta has returned and the Ray Rice debacle is over but our dead money carryover is still one of the highest in the league.  

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3 hours ago, usmccharles said:

Yea i didnt really pay attention to Spence's progress, what do you think he turns into?

Yea, Shepard hurt.....now that Orr retired, its just another whole to fill, hopefully we nail this draft because another year of zero production from 2nd and 3rd picks will extremely hurt us.  We can realistically make a case for almost every position

I think Spence is talented and can turn into a really good player, but he's questionable to me. I haven't watched him much, just going by reports and very little of what I've seen from him. 

Sheparard would've been a great addition to this team and I feel that he could be exactly what we need out of the slot. 

Orr retired but if he were healthy passing on Jack would have been the right move, can't knock the team on that end. 

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43 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

That small sample of production came on a total of 48 snaps. That's like a full game's worth of defensive snaps. Reports was he started to turn the corner in practice and earning the start in the NYJ game pretty such showed that. Than he got hurt the next week in practice and that basically derailed his season. He's gonna have to put in a lot of work this season, but I expect him to be the starting ILB and it'll actually help him because it'll force the coaches to keep him in one position so he can focus on perfecting his craft. I thought the Ravens asked him to do too much in learning the OLB and ILB positions last year. This will be a huge offseason for him. 

I think the Ravens drafted him in mind that he would be a speed rusher, It sucks because we could seriously use that but he just hasn't made an impact. He looks like an ILB but it's bittersweet that he might never be able to be a pass rusher for us, I just feel that maybe the team see Correa being very effective on those 4-3 base packages. 

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I still don't know that we have the horses for a base 43. Last year I would've said otherwise but with Orr being gone I now think we only have 2 traditional linebackers. Maybe Levine or peanut turns out to be a solid weak side backer, maybe we see a guy like peppers slide to our second, who knows, but as of now I don't see a 3rd linebacker on this team 

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10 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I think the Ravens drafted him in mind that he would be a speed rusher, It sucks because we could seriously use that but he just hasn't made an impact. He looks like an ILB but it's bittersweet that he might never be able to be a pass rusher for us, I just feel that maybe the team see Correa being very effective on those 4-3 base packages. 

He was drafted to help provide speed on the outside pass rush, which he still can honestly, not sure why some many seem to think he's just worthless outside, but while that was part of the role they wanted him to fill, from day one they lined him up at ILB and asked him to learn every LB position on the team and I think it eventually became too much for  him mentally. 

Going back to the pass rush aspect of things. Correa isn't a natural pass rusher and you knew that coming out of Bosie. He's an effort pass rusher and a guy who has a really good first step that allowed him to convert speed to power vs weaker OTs. However in the NFL he has to become much stronger, which he definitely can and he has to maintain that great motor. I said it before the Ravens drafted him and I'll say it now. He's almost Identical to Clay Matthews. If you look at Clay coming out of USC he wasn't and isn't a pure pass rusher like a Von Miller. The Packers moved him around and allowed him to blitz more so than just put his hands in the dirt or get in his bike stance and hunt. Clay has decent moves he can pull out every now and then but much of his production comes from effort and the fact that the Packers move him around to create favorable match-ups. The year they tried to make him a full time OLB, I think it was 11' he had probably his worse seasons because that's not his game. The same is true for Correa. When you draft a guy like that you must have a plan for him and I'm not sure Pees is the type of DC to have that type of plan. Not a bash Pees moment, just my opinion. The Ravens need to put KC in position where he's moving all over the defense and the offense doesn't know if he's dropping or blitzing. Just asking him to line up and rush vs OTs all game isn't gonna garner much success consistently. He's the type of guy you just allow to play like his hair is on fire, almost like a rover on defense. He's good enough against the run on the edge to play outside on early downs, but as a pass rusher he should be moved around but he doesn't possess pass rush moves that allow him to win consistently outside. Not saying he's Clay or even AD to give a hometown feel, but he has to be used like those guys or else it's just a waste. That's on the Ravens, not the player. 

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Glad to see a lot of good discussion here in this thread.

The guys drafted within the last couple of seasons I think it is too soon to write a book on them about what they are or are not. We need to see a healthy Maxx Williams again to see if he's what the Ravens thought he was. He showed flashes in his rookie season. Both KC and Kafusi got injured as well so we weren't able to see how they could contribute. They all have question marks, most draft picks do.

I agree that KC will probably be rotated around the linebacker spots, but in order for him not to tip his hand that he's just a rusher from those spots, he has to be legitimately be able to play the responsibilities of those positions and show that he can drop in coverage or play against the run. Otherwise the defense knows whenever he's on the field at whatever position, he's the blitzer.

I liked what I saw from Maxx before he got hurt. He was just starting to click with Joe and make some good plays. We've been seeing a lot of guys get hurt right after drafting them and they are all pretty much fluke injuries. Perriman hurt his knee while diving for a pass, he wasn't even tackled. Kaufusi had his leg rolled up on. KLM could never stay healthy and Brent Urban had some issues early on as well.

I am looking forward to the draft as I am every season but I am not going to bite as hard on the hype train. It will also be interesting to see who the Ravens actually are able to keep and who walks in free agency. The good news is, last season is already behind us. Let's hope the team is well on the way to getting on the right track again.

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10 hours ago, frozen joe flacco fan said:

I agree with your thinking on this. The salary cap has made a lot of difference in the NFL. Not re-signing a draft pick does not negate the quality of the pick. Retention of the great picks is a different challenge for the FO due to the dead money we have had to carry lately and Joe's big contract. I think we've had more than our fair share of salary cap casualties recently. I really hated to see Torrey, Kruger and Jarret Johnson leave the fold. To me, I'd rather lose a free agent like Boldin than a drafted Raven because of the return on the investment (ROI). Hopefully, the dead money thing will improve now that Pitta has returned and the Ray Rice debacle is over but our dead money carryover is still one of the highest in the league.  

I also think the value of the pick is how long of a successful career they had in the NFL. If you drafted a guy that hangs around the NFL for a decade and isn't a special teamer, even if he only played 4-5 seasons with your team, that was still a good pick because his longevity in the league proves you drafted a real player. I even think guys that didn't necessarily have their best performance until after the Ravens let them go are still good picks. There are times when players on the Ravens don't get to play much because of who is ahead of them.

Torrey was all about the salary and the situation the Ravens were in. Had they had the money they perhaps would have kept him. Paul Kruger was a bust and I wasn't sad to see him go at all. He cashed in big with the Browns and had only one good season for them and he stunk up the joint in New Orleans as well. I liked Jarret Johnson a lot, but it was time for him to move on. He was at the end of his career and had little left in the tank at that point. I think he had 1 or 2 decent seasons with San Diego.

But, like I said earlier, a lot of these guys who cashed in on long term big money second contracts did not live up to them which was mostly due to injuries.

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13 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

In the modern, salary capped, free agent NFL I don't think you can necessarily knock a team for not resigning a draft pick.

Imo whether a pick was good or bad should only be judged by how the player performed during their time here. I don't think you should dock points if you don't give the guy a 2nd contract. 

For me, if you get quality contributions for 3-4 years on a cheap rookie deal that's really good. If you get a cheap starter playing at a pro bowl level for 3-4 years that's great (varying degrees depending on level of contribution)....

 

Whether or not they get the 2nd contract and how they perform on said contract has nothing to do with the quality of the draft pick.... that's a separate evaluation of the GM. 

All that does is tell me whether or not the Ravens got the maximum return on their great pick or not. You're picking assets... and unfortunately with a cap you can't always return those assets.

Like Ray Rice was a GREAT draft pick. In hindsight it was a bad contract. What ended up happening doesn't effect the quality of the pick for me though. We got 3 solid years of among the best all purpose RBs in the league for a 2nd rounder. Awesome, awesome pick. 

With that in mind KO was a great pick imo. Kruger was a very good pick. His contributions in 2012 were irreplaceable. Upshaw was a good pick. Torrey was a great pick, etc...

Agree with the premise, but we're also looking back 20 years, so probably at least half of the guys we are talking about are not part of that "modern" NFL. The NFL salary cap didn't even reach $100M until 2006, and that was the year the revenue really starting jumping significantly and we saw like a 15-20% jump in the cap from 2005 to 2006.

So basically prior non-retainers were due to poor production for the most part.

If we started looking from just 2006, its basically Chester (wasn't that valuable for us), Rice (got a 2nd contract), Cody and Kindle (sucked), Torrey (went for more money elsewhere, did resign Jimmy in that same draft class), Upshaw (nothing special), KO (the one guy we let walk without retaining basically anybody from that draft class), Art Brown (sucked).

So really, there's only two guys that fit this mold... Torrey and KO. Losing Torrey wasn't great, but at least we signed our 1st round pick from the same draft class just a month later, so we know its very difficult to retain your top two draft picks in any given year in the same offseason. That's very expensive in the modern NFL, especially when both get market value deals.

KO walking is due to a number of factors, probably primarily us handing out some bad contracts that all came to fruition at the same time and prohibiting us from being competitive there. Could also argue that the Raiders just blew up the market and there's nothing we could do.

Edited by rmcjacket23
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27 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

KO walking is due to a number of factors, probably primarily us handing out some bad contracts that all came to fruition at the same time and prohibiting us from being competitive there. Could also argue that the Raiders just blew up the market and there's nothing we could do.

I would definitely say the Raiders blew up that market.   We offered what,  8-9 mill and Raiders offered 4 more a year.   I don't know how much cap space we had then, but I can't imagine we would of even came close to matching.   I'm sure the Raiders still have plenty of cap space,  which they will need soon for Cooper,  Carr,  Mack.  

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43 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

I also think the value of the pick is how long of a successful career they had in the NFL. If you drafted a guy that hangs around the NFL for a decade and isn't a special teamer, even if he only played 4-5 seasons with your team, that was still a good pick because his longevity in the league proves you drafted a real player. I even think guys that didn't necessarily have their best performance until after the Ravens let them go are still good picks. There are times when players on the Ravens don't get to play much because of who is ahead of them.

Torrey was all about the salary and the situation the Ravens were in. Had they had the money they perhaps would have kept him. Paul Kruger was a bust and I wasn't sad to see him go at all. He cashed in big with the Browns and had only one good season for them and he stunk up the joint in New Orleans as well. I liked Jarret Johnson a lot, but it was time for him to move on. He was at the end of his career and had little left in the tank at that point. I think he had 1 or 2 decent seasons with San Diego.

But, like I said earlier, a lot of these guys who cashed in on long term big money second contracts did not live up to them which was mostly due to injuries.

Well, yes and no. Dwan Edwards is the perfect example of why that type of thinking doesn't always apply. He had an 11 year career, but he was far more productive in the back half with Buffalo/Carolina than he was in Baltimore.

Was largely a non factor for his first 3 years in the league (32 tackles, 0 sacks in 25 regular season games), started playing decently his final two years in Baltimore, but his best years were definitely in Buffalo and Carolina.

So did we draft a good player in terms of total career? Yes, but does that really matter if he's not a good player for THIS team? Debatable. It was a bit different back then, but if we drafted a guy in the 2nd round who gave us the same production as Edwards did in his first three years, literally everybody would be trying to run him out of town. We don't even tolerate one injury from a rookie or one season of being irrelevant... imagine 3 years of that? For perspective, Dwan Edwards tenure in Baltimore from a statistical aspect is about the equivalent of Terrence Cody's tenure in Baltimore. So shouldn't they be evaluated as the same if they produced as the same and were picked in the same round?

 

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1 hour ago, Ravensfan23 said:

He was drafted to help provide speed on the outside pass rush, which he still can honestly, not sure why some many seem to think he's just worthless outside, but while that was part of the role they wanted him to fill, from day one they lined him up at ILB and asked him to learn every LB position on the team and I think it eventually became too much for  him mentally. 

Going back to the pass rush aspect of things. Correa isn't a natural pass rusher and you knew that coming out of Bosie. He's an effort pass rusher and a guy who has a really good first step that allowed him to convert speed to power vs weaker OTs. However in the NFL he has to become much stronger, which he definitely can and he has to maintain that great motor. I said it before the Ravens drafted him and I'll say it now. He's almost Identical to Clay Matthews. If you look at Clay coming out of USC he wasn't and isn't a pure pass rusher like a Von Miller. The Packers moved him around and allowed him to blitz more so than just put his hands in the dirt or get in his bike stance and hunt. Clay has decent moves he can pull out every now and then but much of his production comes from effort and the fact that the Packers move him around to create favorable match-ups. The year they tried to make him a full time OLB, I think it was 11' he had probably his worse seasons because that's not his game. The same is true for Correa. When you draft a guy like that you must have a plan for him and I'm not sure Pees is the type of DC to have that type of plan. Not a bash Pees moment, just my opinion. The Ravens need to put KC in position where he's moving all over the defense and the offense doesn't know if he's dropping or blitzing. Just asking him to line up and rush vs OTs all game isn't gonna garner much success consistently. He's the type of guy you just allow to play like his hair is on fire, almost like a rover on defense. He's good enough against the run on the edge to play outside on early downs, but as a pass rusher he should be moved around but he doesn't possess pass rush moves that allow him to win consistently outside. Not saying he's Clay or even AD to give a hometown feel, but he has to be used like those guys or else it's just a waste. That's on the Ravens, not the player. 

Amen. The bottom line is KC was drafted because of his unique abilities. Abilities being wasted. Pees schemes are very bland and vanilla. X player fits x spot. He cannot adjust on the fly. He never has, even with NE. We'll see what happens next year as I think he gets many more reps splitting time with Judon and others, but I think he's gonna wind up a pretty good 2nd Rd pick. 

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1 hour ago, terrynjulia03 said:

Amen. The bottom line is KC was drafted because of his unique abilities. Abilities being wasted. Pees schemes are very bland and vanilla. X player fits x spot. He cannot adjust on the fly. He never has, even with NE. We'll see what happens next year as I think he gets many more reps splitting time with Judon and others, but I think he's gonna wind up a pretty good 2nd Rd pick. 

This is one "let's bash Pees" train I will get on. i think Pees has done a good job, but KC is a guy that could definitely benefit by being a hybrid player and lining up in a lot of different positions. I don't think Pees is anywhere near creative enough to get the most out of KC.

Edited by ravensnick
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4 hours ago, terrynjulia03 said:

Amen. The bottom line is KC was drafted because of his unique abilities. Abilities being wasted. Pees schemes are very bland and vanilla. X player fits x spot. He cannot adjust on the fly. He never has, even with NE. We'll see what happens next year as I think he gets many more reps splitting time with Judon and others, but I think he's gonna wind up a pretty good 2nd Rd pick. 

 

2 hours ago, ravensnick said:

This is one "let's bash Pees" train I will get on. i think Pees has done a good job, but KC is a guy that could definitely benefit by being a hybrid player and lining up in a lot of different positions. I don't think Pees is anywhere near creative enough to get the most out of KC.

Yea Pees is more of a 1 on 1 beat your man type of guy. Won't be many games and twist in the front 7. I'm not a bash Pees guy, but the way he uses the front 7 has always been a area of concern for me. The Ravens have never really drafted pure pass rushers, outside of Suggs, Kindle and maybe Dan Cody. Most of the guys they draft and pretty much everyone under Pees have been effort pass rusher. Guys who need to be moved around and run games to really find that success. 

If allowed to run twist and games, guys like Timmy, ZDS, BWill, Davis, Urban, Guy and Henry are guys who would greatly benefit from running twist and loops up front. I think Judon could be a consistent rusher outside while guys like Correa and CJ do a strong job of blitzing. Just don't think players are being allowed to maximize their talents up front. 

Correa has a lot of work to do to improve. Technique, strength as well as allowing the game to slow down. On the Ravens side, they have to put him in a position to succeed by allowing him to do what he does best and not put him in a box. 

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6 hours ago, terrynjulia03 said:

Amen. The bottom line is KC was drafted because of his unique abilities. Abilities being wasted. Pees schemes are very bland and vanilla. X player fits x spot. He cannot adjust on the fly. He never has, even with NE. We'll see what happens next year as I think he gets many more reps splitting time with Judon and others, but I think he's gonna wind up a pretty good 2nd Rd pick. 

McPhee is a guy who we got the most out of by moving him around and being creative.

He can and has done it... but you dont build the role for one player and move him around if you end up with an overall negative. I agree Correa is probably best used in a hybrid role... but who are you taking off the field to accommodate him?

You had two ILB's playing at near Pro Bowl/All Pro levels most of the year in Orr and Mosley. Both showed vast improvement in coverage and Mosley is a good blitzer in his own right. Maybe you could take them off every now and again to give Correa a snap here and there, but if you dont do it enough it doesnt really keep the offense guessing.

And he's not gonna put his hand in the dirt and rush inside. 

He's a stand up rusher from the outside, and would probably be effective at delayed A gap blitzing and things of that sort -- but, again i just dont think there was any reason to take Orr or Mosley off just to create that role for Correa. If it doesnt equal a net positive for the team, theres just no sense in doing it.

So -- the only spot youre really left with for him is as a rotational outside rusher. And to give him snaps there he has to outperform Judon, Zadarius, Suggs, etc... to earn those snaps. Didnt seem like he did that.

 

I'm pulling for Correa. I think with time to learn exactly how they want to use him he can improve. And with the offseason hopefully he can change his body, either by putting on weight/strength to play outside, or lose some mass to be more quick/rangy to play in the middle.

But i dont think his lack of use last season had anything to do with Pees inability to use him properly. Pees has actually shown the ability to get creative with a guy and move him all around the formation to maximize his talents... Correa to this point just wasnt bringing anything more effective than what was already out there.

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8 hours ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

I also think the value of the pick is how long of a successful career they had in the NFL. If you drafted a guy that hangs around the NFL for a decade and isn't a special teamer, even if he only played 4-5 seasons with your team, that was still a good pick because his longevity in the league proves you drafted a real player. I even think guys that didn't necessarily have their best performance until after the Ravens let them go are still good picks. There are times when players on the Ravens don't get to play much because of who is ahead of them.

Torrey was all about the salary and the situation the Ravens were in. Had they had the money they perhaps would have kept him. Paul Kruger was a bust and I wasn't sad to see him go at all. He cashed in big with the Browns and had only one good season for them and he stunk up the joint in New Orleans as well. I liked Jarret Johnson a lot, but it was time for him to move on. He was at the end of his career and had little left in the tank at that point. I think he had 1 or 2 decent seasons with San Diego.

But, like I said earlier, a lot of these guys who cashed in on long term big money second contracts did not live up to them which was mostly due to injuries.

I see your point and I agree. As I have said before, IMO one of our problems seems to be talent evaluation. A case could be made that its the same as drafting but its not the same in my mind. We seem to have a problem deciding who to keep and who to release after they have made the roster. I've seen some players who learned under our system move to other teams and be very successful. Darian Stewart is just one of several examples. I would have parted company with Matt Elam long ago. I realize that part of it is getting the most bang for the buck but it still seems to be part of a habitual bad habit, that is not recognizing who is a keeper and who is not.

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If this shows anything, the last 4 years have been tough. KC, Maxx, Jernigan, Brown have either been injured, not ready for action or are inconsistent. 

I am hoping for two home runs. Everyone wants the flashy guys, esp. Edge and corners back to back, but I'm hoping we trade up if a fringe 1st round talent comes within 5 or so picks. 

Key Round 2 targets:

Pat Eiflein- not a sexy pick, but he is versatile and a future anchor on the offensive line. Scouting report says he could have a Travis Frederick like impact on a line. 

Budda Baker- insanely gifted safety from UW who might be slightly undersized at 5'10, but plays like a young Eric Weddle. Great in coverage and a missile in the run game. Great instincts too with solid tackling abilities. 

Gareon Conley- I expect a handful of corners will go in round 1 and he will get lost in the chaos. He has size and fluidity to mirror in coverage. His effort in getting off blocks is suspect and he gets lost on assignments occasionally, but he is very good in man coverage and has the size to help him from getting owned like Shareece Wright. 

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13 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

He was drafted to help provide speed on the outside pass rush, which he still can honestly, not sure why some many seem to think he's just worthless outside, but while that was part of the role they wanted him to fill, from day one they lined him up at ILB and asked him to learn every LB position on the team and I think it eventually became too much for  him mentally. 

Going back to the pass rush aspect of things. Correa isn't a natural pass rusher and you knew that coming out of Bosie. He's an effort pass rusher and a guy who has a really good first step that allowed him to convert speed to power vs weaker OTs. However in the NFL he has to become much stronger, which he definitely can and he has to maintain that great motor. I said it before the Ravens drafted him and I'll say it now. He's almost Identical to Clay Matthews. If you look at Clay coming out of USC he wasn't and isn't a pure pass rusher like a Von Miller. The Packers moved him around and allowed him to blitz more so than just put his hands in the dirt or get in his bike stance and hunt. Clay has decent moves he can pull out every now and then but much of his production comes from effort and the fact that the Packers move him around to create favorable match-ups. The year they tried to make him a full time OLB, I think it was 11' he had probably his worse seasons because that's not his game. The same is true for Correa. When you draft a guy like that you must have a plan for him and I'm not sure Pees is the type of DC to have that type of plan. Not a bash Pees moment, just my opinion. The Ravens need to put KC in position where he's moving all over the defense and the offense doesn't know if he's dropping or blitzing. Just asking him to line up and rush vs OTs all game isn't gonna garner much success consistently. He's the type of guy you just allow to play like his hair is on fire, almost like a rover on defense. He's good enough against the run on the edge to play outside on early downs, but as a pass rusher he should be moved around but he doesn't possess pass rush moves that allow him to win consistently outside. Not saying he's Clay or even AD to give a hometown feel, but he has to be used like those guys or else it's just a waste. That's on the Ravens, not the player. 

He can still provide speed outside but my problem is that many speed rusher are refined in many areas and actually play with more strength than what you usually see from Correa and that's my big problem for him, and trying to learn how to rush the passer while attempting to play ILB and that might be an immense leap for a guy who didn't play much this season. It would be different if he was sticking to OLB but if he's supposed to play multiple positions than its going to be tough for him to become an effective rusher.

I really think the decision to put him at ILB in the first place backfired. As you said, it took a tole on a guy who was learning to rush the passer. I mean, needing to know the formations and coverage of ILB and OLB while refining yourself in both areas? How many guys have done something like that? I certainly think a fair share of this falls on the Ravens but Correa has faults of his own as a pass rusher and that just speaks to how raw of a player he is, I personally think hes going to have to get stronger as well, that play where he got blown up by the situational blocker was hard to see and it shows you that he'll need more strength. 

Thing is, I think this defense can be a really good fit for a guy like him if he bulks up and refines his technique. I agreed with what should be done with him. He should be allowed to roam around the defense and keep teams guessing, in a hybrid defense like ours we can move him around the middle of the field, he's so athletic that he can cover the flats and even play the spy if need be. You could even use him as a speed rusher on physco blitzes and confuse QBs so bad because they wouldn't know if he's blitzing or dropping back. I've also noticed how when told to tone his play down, he sort of declined, it's weird since we heard a lot of things about him. 

I don't remember much of Clay Matthews but I could recall that he was able to play with decent play strength and knew how to pop offensive tackles. He also had a good speed-to-power conversion and knew how to use that. That's all I could remember and while I definitely see the comparisons I personally think there are things that Clay could do that allowed him to be more effective and those elements are what Correa is missing. 

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14 hours ago, frozen joe flacco fan said:

I see your point and I agree. As I have said before, IMO one of our problems seems to be talent evaluation. A case could be made that its the same as drafting but its not the same in my mind. We seem to have a problem deciding who to keep and who to release after they have made the roster. I've seen some players who learned under our system move to other teams and be very successful. Darian Stewart is just one of several examples. I would have parted company with Matt Elam long ago. I realize that part of it is getting the most bang for the buck but it still seems to be part of a habitual bad habit, that is not recognizing who is a keeper and who is not.

I really don't think Darian Stewart is that good. The reason I think people think he is good is because the Broncos have the best trio of cornerbacks by far in the league. You don't part away with a first round pick. The talent is there, he just is not catching onto football. You wait out his rookie contract to see if anything catches on. If people got rid of 1st round talent in the first 2 or 3 years of their contract a lot of teams would be making huge mistakes. A lot of the time it takes that long for them to make an impact. If anything the team has done a great job of realizing who to keep and who not to. Ed Reed is a prime example. Paul Kruger fell off the face of the Earth afterwards. Several examples. The team cannot pay everybody. The team let Darian Stewart go and the team now has Eric Weddle. 

Darian Stewart is getting paid more than Eric Weddle. Eric Weddle was the #1 ranked safety last season in all the NFL without the best trio of cornerbacks in the league. Talent evaluation won right there in my eyes.

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Add in the 3rd round also. Just something I've seen in mock drafts and a article on RSR. Linking is to another DE in the 1st round. Lol. If you look at the draft prospects, Carl Davis, Jerrigan, Kafusi, ZSmith, and Correa, ALL have come out with highly touted pass rush abilities. And these are all 2nd and 3rd rounders. Read their draft projections and analysis. And not a single one has produced. Why? Kafusi broke his ankle, very unfortunate. Correa had some dings, but still couldn't see the field. Davis, a guy that even Mike Mayock said might sneak into the 1st round has done......ZSmith, the quoted "twin of McPhee" has done.......Jerrigan has done pretty good, but certainly hasn't lived up to his draft projection. And 2 years ago people were calling him a bust. Lol. 

 

Bottom line, if you're drafting guys in the 2nd and 3rd that even experts say would be 1st rounders, and than they produce less than you're undrafted guys, you have a serious disconnect between you're Coaching staff and Scouting people. 

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13 minutes ago, PurpleCity5 said:

He can still provide speed outside but my problem is that many speed rusher are refined in many areas and actually play with more strength than what you usually see from Correa and that's my big problem for him, and trying to learn how to rush the passer while attempting to play ILB and that might be an immense leap for a guy who didn't play much this season. It would be different if he was sticking to OLB but if he's supposed to play multiple positions than its going to be tough for him to become an effective rusher.

I really think the decision to put him at ILB in the first place backfired. As you said, it took a tole on a guy who was learning to rush the passer. I mean, needing to know the formations and coverage of ILB and OLB while refining yourself in both areas? How many guys have done something like that? I certainly think a fair share of this falls on the Ravens but Correa has faults of his own as a pass rusher and that just speaks to how raw of a player he is, I personally think hes going to have to get stronger as well, that play where he got blown up by the situational blocker was hard to see and it shows you that he'll need more strength. 

Thing is, I think this defense can be a really good fit for a guy like him if he bulks up and refines his technique. I agreed with what should be done with him. He should be allowed to roam around the defense and keep teams guessing, in a hybrid defense like ours we can move him around the middle of the field, he's so athletic that he can cover the flats and even play the spy if need be. You could even use him as a speed rusher on physco blitzes and confuse QBs so bad because they wouldn't know if he's blitzing or dropping back. I've also noticed how when told to tone his play down, he sort of declined, it's weird since we heard a lot of things about him. 

I don't remember much of Clay Matthews but I could recall that he was able to play with decent play strength and knew how to pop offensive tackles. He also had a good speed-to-power conversion and knew how to use that. That's all I could remember and while I definitely see the comparisons I personally think there are things that Clay could do that allowed him to be more effective and those elements are what Correa is missing. 

Again not saying KC is or will be the exact same player that Clay is. Clay Matthews is a All-Pro and I don't really like comparing players like that. My comparison comes from how Clay is used and how KC should be used. 

I agree that Clay plays with a lot more strength than KC does. I personally don't think that Boise cared much about him building strength as a collegiate athlete. I think what we have to realize about some of these rookies and the impact they do or don't have is that all college programs don't place a great emphasis on strength and conditioning. That's why that year 1 to year 2 transition is so crucial for most players because they are actually focusing on developing strength and conditioning for the position they are being asked to play. It'll be interesting to see how KC returns after the offseason. 

I'm not saying he'll be a stud, but I think he's gonna be a 2nd round pick that has really good to great production and will be one of those guys the Ravens keep around long term when it's all said and done.

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On 2/9/2017 at 0:26 PM, ravensnick said:

This is one "let's bash Pees" train I will get on. i think Pees has done a good job, but KC is a guy that could definitely benefit by being a hybrid player and lining up in a lot of different positions. I don't think Pees is anywhere near creative enough to get the most out of KC.

Wasn't it just last year the Ravens had to simply the defensive scheme because it was too complex for the,players and big plays were being given up?  I get people want to blame everything on Pees but players play not the coaches.

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23 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Again not saying KC is or will be the exact same player that Clay is. Clay Matthews is a All-Pro and I don't really like comparing players like that. My comparison comes from how Clay is used and how KC should be used. 

I agree that Clay plays with a lot more strength than KC does. I personally don't think that Boise cared much about him building strength as a collegiate athlete. I think what we have to realize about some of these rookies and the impact they do or don't have is that all college programs don't place a great emphasis on strength and conditioning. That's why that year 1 to year 2 transition is so crucial for most players because they are actually focusing on developing strength and conditioning for the position they are being asked to play. It'll be interesting to see how KC returns after the offseason. 

I'm not saying he'll be a stud, but I think he's gonna be a 2nd round pick that has really good to great production and will be one of those guys the Ravens keep around long term when it's all said and done.

I get ya, I understand that you weren't saying they're the exact same, and I definitely see how they can be used but even if Correa wants to assume that role, he'll have to bulk up and get better with his pass rush.

I personally like hearing your opinions honestly because I like the aspects you bring up. I never thought about how committed Boise State was towards him building up his strength and it looked like they really weren't invested in that, much rather they had him beat LTs on his speed alone and I think that commitment hurt him his first year. 

I'm crossing my fingers on his development because it could be a huge difference maker for this defense. 

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7 minutes ago, Adreme said:

Wasn't it just last year the Ravens had to simply the defensive scheme because it was too complex for the,players and big plays were being given up?  I get people want to blame everything on Pees but players play not the coaches.

Complexity isn't the same as creativity.

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54 minutes ago, berad said:

Complexity isn't the same as creativity.

I agree with this but execution is vital as well.  Suggs and Doom in 2014 played so well even the fans thought Rashaan Melvin was a good CB up until Brady exposed him.  Jimmy Smith played so well we all thought the rest of the secondary was playing well until he got injured.

To be honest, after re-reading this, these examples can either be excuses for Pees (he's done well when he had talent) or excuses against him (he needs top end superstars to mask his bad schemes).  I personally lead with the former as no DC is looking good without key personnel.  Rex was a living legend at DC in Baltimore up until 07 when McAlister and Pryce got hurt with Adalius Thomas in New England.  Even with Rolle, R.Lewis, Scott, Ngata, Suggs, and Reed (that lineup is ridiculous) all playing most of the season the defense was trash because the top two pass rushers from the previous year were gone (Thomas) or injured (Pryce), and the top CB was hobbled in games or just plain out (McAlister).

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8 hours ago, trevorsteadman said:

I really don't think Darian Stewart is that good. The reason I think people think he is good is because the Broncos have the best trio of cornerbacks by far in the league. You don't part away with a first round pick. The talent is there, he just is not catching onto football. You wait out his rookie contract to see if anything catches on. If people got rid of 1st round talent in the first 2 or 3 years of their contract a lot of teams would be making huge mistakes. A lot of the time it takes that long for them to make an impact. If anything the team has done a great job of realizing who to keep and who not to. Ed Reed is a prime example. Paul Kruger fell off the face of the Earth afterwards. Several examples. The team cannot pay everybody. The team let Darian Stewart go and the team now has Eric Weddle. 

Darian Stewart is getting paid more than Eric Weddle. Eric Weddle was the #1 ranked safety last season in all the NFL without the best trio of cornerbacks in the league. Talent evaluation won right there in my eyes.

I would agree Stewart is no Eric Weddle but he has been good enough to start on a Super Bowl winning team since he left our house and he's still a starter for Denver. Gary Kubiak must have seen something in him.

So, are you saying Elam is a keeper? I realize he's still playing on his first contract but I think he's a bust. He's just taking up valuable space on the 53 man roster. I question how well the talent evaluation thing has worked out on him. I really hope the light bulb goes on for him this year but the bulb is looking pretty dim at this point.  

 

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On 2/8/2017 at 10:14 PM, Ravensfan23 said:

That small sample of production came on a total of 48 snaps. That's like a full game's worth of defensive snaps. Reports was he started to turn the corner in practice and earning the start in the NYJ game pretty such showed that. Than he got hurt the next week in practice and that basically derailed his season. He's gonna have to put in a lot of work this season, but I expect him to be the starting ILB and it'll actually help him because it'll force the coaches to keep him in one position so he can focus on perfecting his craft. I thought the Ravens asked him to do too much in learning the OLB and ILB positions last year. This will be a huge offseason for him. 

That is the key keep him at ILB and let him concentrate and learn one position learning multiple positions was a bad idea as far as it stunted his growth. There was way to much thinking involved for a rookie adjusting to the speed of the game and more advanced schemes is enough for any rookie to process much less learning multiple positions and groupings.

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1 hour ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I get ya, I understand that you weren't saying they're the exact same, and I definitely see how they can be used but even if Correa wants to assume that role, he'll have to bulk up and get better with his pass rush.

I personally like hearing your opinions honestly because I like the aspects you bring up. I never thought about how committed Boise State was towards him building up his strength and it looked like they really weren't invested in that, much rather they had him beat LTs on his speed alone and I think that commitment hurt him his first year. 

I'm crossing my fingers on his development because it could be a huge difference maker for this defense. 

you and I both. My fingers are crossed as well. He definitely has to improve his play strength which i hope this offseason helps. 

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