Ravens were about to give entire 2008 draft for Ryan

[gtalk12]

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

He didn't throw the touchdown, but he got them in position for Coleman's run and he got them into field goal range twice before shoddy play calling pulled them back, so I mean...

 

I looked at the game again, Ryan took and made some HORRIBLE decisions regardless of the play call.

 

Remember when Flacco threw an INT vs the Eagles? Was it a good play call? No, but that throw he made was trash

 

...Ryan took some HORRIBLE sacks late game and had ample time to get rid of the ball.

[BmoreBird22]

2 hours ago, Tank 92 said:

OK, to state the obvious there were completely different circumstances. One was lengthened by the normal run of play that could happen in any game, not unusual. The other was lengthened by a freakish power outage while the game was being played that robbed momentum, an unprecedented event that will most likely never happen again.  

I'm sure it really helped a hot Falcons offense to be off the field for 90 minutes.

[BmoreBird22]

1 hour ago, gtalk12 said:

 

I looked at the game again, Ryan took and made some HORRIBLE decisions regardless of the play call.

 

Remember when Flacco threw an INT vs the Eagles? Was it a good play call? No, but that throw he made was trash

 

...Ryan took some HORRIBLE sacks late game and had ample time to get rid of the ball.

The play itself was actually a great play call if Joe doesn't get tunnel vision. Would have been an easy pitch and catch; not even a bad throw, just never saw the defender.

You're failing to recognize that 

1) A sack keeps the clock running and an incomplete pass does not, so that factors in.

2) Shanahan called five and seven step drops out of the shotgun, so there's are inherently deep passes and require the quarterback to hold onto the ball 

[arnie_uk]

On 06/02/2017 at 2:20 PM, BmoreBird22 said:

Joe led the Ravens to six points in the second half (1 less than Ryan) as the Ravens held a 28-6 lead. This was so incredibly similar to the Ravens, expect the Ravens had a very experienced defense that was able to hold strong.

Or they had a qb that audible out of a 3rd down run and hit his reliable receiver and lead them to a fg which meant San Francisco had to score a td.

Without that clutch play by both qb and receiver San Fran kick a fg and go to overtime. 

Ryan and the best offense in the league wad found wanting when it was need most.

 

Edit. Sorry didn't realise this post was so old. Probably thrashed to death at this point. Ignore...

Edited February 11 by arnie_uk

[Tank 92]

2 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I'm sure it really helped a hot Falcons offense to be off the field for 90 minutes.

Could have, don't know. But after the quick three and out to start the half they came right back with an 85 yard, 8 play TD drive and it looked like they picked up right where they left off in the first half. Wasn't until well after the long break, almost the end of the 3rd quarter, that they looked anemic and were unable to get a first down much less sustain any sort of drive. Given that timeline I would have to say the extended time off the field had little or nothing to do with their collapse. 

Edited February 11 by Tank 92

[redrum52]

On 2/6/2017 at 9:20 AM, BmoreBird22 said:

Joe led the Ravens to six points in the second half (1 less than Ryan) as the Ravens held a 28-6 lead. This was so incredibly similar to the Ravens, expect the Ravens had a very experienced defense that was able to hold strong.

How true.  We were lucky.  Coaches seem to abandon what works at crucial moments in games.  Run was gushing us so they pass 4 straight downs I think.  Then a somewhat favorable no call to end it.  I'll take it for all the bad calls we've been on the wrong end of.

Edited February 12 by redrum52

[BmoreBird22]

51 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

Could have, don't know. But after the quick three and out to start the half they came right back with an 85 yard, 8 play TD drive and it looked like they picked up right where they left off in the first half. Wasn't until well after the long break, almost the end of the 4th quarter, that they looked anemic and were unable to get a first down much less sustain any sort of drive. Given that timeline I would have to say the extended time off the field had little or nothing to do with their collapse. 

They got into field goal range twice in the fourth, so not sure why this idea that they couldn't sustain drives is floating around.

[BmoreBird22]

52 minutes ago, redrum52 said:

How true.  We were lucky.  Coaches seem toverwhelming abandon what works at crucial moments in games.  Run was gushing us so they pass 4 straight downs I think.  Then a somewhat favorable no call to end it.  I'll take it for all the bad calls we've been on the wrong end of.

This is something that hasn't been pointed out yet, but the 49ers basically did the same thing as the Falcons. Both teams got incredibly lucky that the opposing OC got a little too ahead of themselves. 

With no Ngata, I fully expected run because the run defense was dreadful against the option. That could have been the dagger.

[Tank 92]

4 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

They got into field goal range twice in the fourth, so not sure why this idea that they couldn't sustain drives is floating around.

Not an idea, it's fact. They ran only 13 plays in 3 possessions in the 4th quarter producing 1 fumble and 2 punts.  4:30 ToP.  That was after having the ball for a 3 play drive(punt) at the end of the third quarter producing -15 yards.

After their 3rd quarter TD the Falcons offense collapsed. 

[gtalk12]

2 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

The play itself was actually a great play call if Joe doesn't get tunnel vision. Would have been an easy pitch and catch; not even a bad throw, just never saw the defender.

You're failing to recognize that 

1) A sack keeps the clock running and an incomplete pass does not, so that factors in.

2) Shanahan called five and seven step drops out of the shotgun, so there's are inherently deep passes and require the quarterback to hold onto the ball 

 

you're right, it does keep the clock running...however it also put them out of field goal range.

 

I do not disagree with you that Joe had tunnel vision, BUT, and there is a big BUT, there was no reason to pass on first. I like aggressive play calling but I felt it was not necessary. At least not on 1st down, a couple of runs to see how close you can get would have been much better. I get that this is all in hindsight though.

[BmoreBird22]

3 hours ago, Tank 92 said:

Not an idea, it's fact. They ran only 13 plays in 3 possessions in the 4th quarter producing 1 fumble and 2 punts.  4:30 ToP.  That was after having the ball for a 3 play drive(punt) at the end of the third quarter producing -15 yards.

After their 3rd quarter TD the Falcons offense collapsed. 

They still got into field goal range twice; that's a fact...

[BmoreBird22]

2 hours ago, gtalk12 said:

 

you're right, it does keep the clock running...however it also put them out of field goal range.

 

I do not disagree with you that Joe had tunnel vision, BUT, and there is a big BUT, there was no reason to pass on first. I like aggressive play calling but I felt it was not necessary. At least not on 1st down, a couple of runs to see how close you can get would have been much better. I get that this is all in hindsight though.

Ah, but it does not. Bryant was perfect from beyond 50 (it'd be 52) and it would have been 3rd and 23. The Patriots aren't going to sell out for a run. That means Freeman can probably get like 4 or 5 yards, at least, making it a very makable kick for Bryant. Why he decided to pass again with no Schraeder and a hurt Mack is... well, I have no idea why you'd do that again and risk another sack, another fumble, or a hold. The risk was far too great, even if the pass was initially completed.

I hated the play call selection, too. Trust me, I thought it was bad, even with hindsight. I'm very much in the same boat of why not run off clock before you pass? Was he trying to catch them off guard and act all sneaky? It just wasn't smart.

[gtalk12]

17 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Ah, but it does not. Bryant was perfect from beyond 50 (it'd be 52) and it would have been 3rd and 23. The Patriots aren't going to sell out for a run. That means Freeman can probably get like 4 or 5 yards, at least, making it a very makable kick for Bryant. Why he decided to pass again with no Schraeder and a hurt Mack is... well, I have no idea why you'd do that again and risk another sack, another fumble, or a hold. The risk was far too great, even if the pass was initially completed.

I hated the play call selection, too. Trust me, I thought it was bad, even with hindsight. I'm very much in the same boat of why not run off clock before you pass? Was he trying to catch them off guard and act all sneaky? It just wasn't smart.

 

a 40 yarder is much easier than a 50 yarder, theres no reason to make it harder and as you can see set them even passed those limits lol

 

I am still in shock, but at the same time they decided to put the ball in Ryans hands....I have always been very critical of him because he came out of the draft with Flacco.

 

Flacco is my guy, I know he isn't as pretty as other QB's, his inability to be consistent during the regular season for WHATEVER the reason kills me the same way I know it hurts you.

 

Ryan with his cast of offensive weapons throughout the years has not been able to be as successful as Flacco with less. What I believe happened in that game was just that, they wanted to stay aggressive with who they deemed was the best player and their best shot to win which was Ryan in their eyes....

 

Ryan has not proven to me that he can do that, which is why you and I both agree they should have just ran the ball more.

[BmoreBird22]

5 minutes ago, gtalk12 said:

a 40 yarder is much easier than a 50 yarder, theres no reason to make it harder and as you can see set them even passed those limits lol

 

I am still in shock, but at the same time they decided to put the ball in Ryans hands....I have always been very critical of him because he came out of the draft with Flacco.

 

Flacco is my guy, I know he isn't as pretty as other QB's, his inability to be consistent during the regular season for WHATEVER the reason kills me the same way I know it hurts you.

 

Ryan with his cast of offensive weapons throughout the years has not been able to be as successful as Flacco with less. What I believe happened in that game was just that, they wanted to stay aggressive with who they deemed was the best player and their best shot to win which was Ryan in their eyes....

 

Ryan has not proven to me that he can do that, which is why you and I both agree they should have just ran the ball more.

It's not that I don't think Ryan could have won the game (had Matthews not held Long, Sanu's 9 yard gain puts them right back at like 43), but the circumstances dictated otherwise heavily. Mack was clearly feeling that fracture and you have no Schraeder at RT. Why would you even want to put Ryan in a position to pass the ball when his line is at a handicap? No reason to pass the ball two times in a row when he was sacked on the previous play. Like I said before, just too high risk of another sack, another fumble, a holding penalty, or an incomplete pass. Running guarantees the clock keeps running and you're almost guaranteed like 4 to 5 yards, at least. Of course, had Mattews not held Long, we could have been talking about how Ryan came through big to lead the Falcons to a field goal that fended off a Patriots comeback/Falcons defensive collapse.

I think we can say Ryan has had more to work with, but in reality, this is the first year he's had an offensive line that's been really strong throughout to go along with a consistent running game to pair with his great receivers. Plus, he's never had the defense that Flacco has had. From 2008 to 2011 prior the Pats game, Flacco never had to win a game for the team. In fact, he was generally the detriment of the team early. Ryan just hasn't had the luxury of having a defense that could bail him out or keep the game so close that an interception/fumble here or there isn't the end of the game.

I do think Ryan would have been extremely capable of winning a Super Bowl with the Ravens if the circumstances were the exact same.

[gtalk12]

9 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

It's not that I don't think Ryan could have won the game (had Matthews not held Long, Sanu's 9 yard gain puts them right back at like 43), but the circumstances dictated otherwise heavily. Mack was clearly feeling that fracture and you have no Schraeder at RT. Why would you even want to put Ryan in a position to pass the ball when his line is at a handicap? No reason to pass the ball two times in a row when he was sacked on the previous play. Like I said before, just too high risk of another sack, another fumble, a holding penalty, or an incomplete pass. Running guarantees the clock keeps running and you're almost guaranteed like 4 to 5 yards, at least. Of course, had Mattews not held Long, we could have been talking about how Ryan came through big to lead the Falcons to a field goal that fended off a Patriots comeback/Falcons defensive collapse.

I think we can say Ryan has had more to work with, but in reality, this is the first year he's had an offensive line that's been really strong throughout to go along with a consistent running game to pair with his great receivers. Plus, he's never had the defense that Flacco has had. From 2008 to 2011 prior the Pats game, Flacco never had to win a game for the team. In fact, he was generally the detriment of the team early. Ryan just hasn't had the luxury of having a defense that could bail him out or keep the game so close that an interception/fumble here or there isn't the end of the game.

I do think Ryan would have been extremely capable of winning a Super Bowl with the Ravens if the circumstances were the exact same.

 

Considering how much we would have given him? I do not think so, Rice would never have been drafted and that was huge...Flacco was slower to develop thanks to a commitment to the run game and the defense which was a good idea. The worse our defense got throughout the years because of age the better Flacco was becoming and was expected to carry them going forward. The year we one our defense was nowhere near its best days, bc if it was we would have steamed through EVERYONE with the way Joe was playing lol.

 

In my opinion the Falcons made an effort to build around Ryan, let's not forget he inherited a team with Roddy White who at the time was a big time player...they bring in Tony Gonzalez and Julio. That is INSANE to me when you match it to Boldin, Torrey, and Pitta. On ATL there are already 2 of those 3 guys going to HOF with White possibly being the odd man out but he was still a great talent. in 09 Roddy went for about 1300 yards and Tony was there pre-Julio with Mike Turner as your RB averaging 4.9 a carry.

 

In 11 with Julio they got KILLED by the Giants in the wildcard round only putting up 2 points lol. I do not trust him yet, this year he came closer

[BmoreBird22]

3 hours ago, gtalk12 said:

Considering how much we would have given him? I do not think so, Rice would never have been drafted and that was huge...Flacco was slower to develop thanks to a commitment to the run game and the defense which was a good idea. The worse our defense got throughout the years because of age the better Flacco was becoming and was expected to carry them going forward. The year we one our defense was nowhere near its best days, bc if it was we would have steamed through EVERYONE with the way Joe was playing lol.

 

In my opinion the Falcons made an effort to build around Ryan, let's not forget he inherited a team with Roddy White who at the time was a big time player...they bring in Tony Gonzalez and Julio. That is INSANE to me when you match it to Boldin, Torrey, and Pitta. On ATL there are already 2 of those 3 guys going to HOF with White possibly being the odd man out but he was still a great talent. in 09 Roddy went for about 1300 yards and Tony was there pre-Julio with Mike Turner as your RB averaging 4.9 a carry.

 

In 11 with Julio they got KILLED by the Giants in the wildcard round only putting up 2 points lol. I do not trust him yet, this year he came closer

To be entirely fair to 2012, it wasn't that the defense wasn't playing well. They were playing about how you'd expect (including in the playoffs); they just had so many injuries. Suggs twice, Lewis, Webb, Jimmy, McClain, Ngata, etc. When they got healthy and all came together (the playoffs), they played excellent. Hell, the defense was just as big in the Denver win as the offense. 

I do think Rice was a huge factor and it's fair to wonder if Ryan would have done as well without him, but Ryan has never had nearly the running game or line that Flacco has had consistently. Michael Turner had some good years, but he was literally the Falcons running game, so if he was averaging 80 yards a game, that was what the Falcons were getting, maybe less if Ryan was sacked. Ryan never had anything near the combo of McClain-McGahee-Rice, Rice-McGahee, Rice-Pierce, Rice-Williams, etc. 

And it's really great to have guys like White and Julio, but what do we always say with Joe? If he just had an offensive line... Well, up until this year, Ryan never had that, and even this year, it wasn't an elite pass blocking line. It was an elite run blocking unit with good pass blocking. It wasn't anywhere near the 2014 season for Flacco who had an elite pass blocking line.

In '11, Julio was a rookie (the rookie learning curve is real) and Mike Smith went for it twice inside the 20 of the Giants on fourth down. They would have had more points had Mike Smith not gone for it. And it's entirely fair to wonder how that changes the tides of the game. It's really deflating to get to guaranteed point range, but come up short. Plus, that Giants defense was legit that year. They were excellent in the playoffs.

Edited February 12 by BmoreBird22

[Tank 92]

3 hours ago, gtalk12 said:

 

Considering how much we would have given him? I do not think so, Rice would never have been drafted and that was huge...Flacco was slower to develop thanks to a commitment to the run game and the defense which was a good idea. The worse our defense got throughout the years because of age the better Flacco was becoming and was expected to carry them going forward. The year we one our defense was nowhere near its best days, bc if it was we would have steamed through EVERYONE with the way Joe was playing lol.

 

In my opinion the Falcons made an effort to build around Ryan, let's not forget he inherited a team with Roddy White who at the time was a big time player...they bring in Tony Gonzalez and Julio. That is INSANE to me when you match it to Boldin, Torrey, and Pitta. On ATL there are already 2 of those 3 guys going to HOF with White possibly being the odd man out but he was still a great talent. in 09 Roddy went for about 1300 yards and Tony was there pre-Julio with Mike Turner as your RB averaging 4.9 a carry.

 

In 11 with Julio they got KILLED by the Giants in the wildcard round only putting up 2 points lol. I do not trust him yet, this year he came closer

Given the events of the past 8 years for both teams it's safe to say the Ravens ended up with the right guy. 

[BmoreBird22]

5 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

Given the events of the past 8 years for both teams it's safe to say the Ravens ended up with the right guy. 

The Ravens have always fielded better teams. They just largely needed someone who wasn't Boller bad.

[gtalk12]

6 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

The Ravens have always fielded better teams. They just largely needed someone who wasn't Boller bad.

 

I don't think that's fair to Joe, Joe isn't some decent QB. In the current version of the NFL, there are only 7 QB's that have won superbowls including Joe. Of those 7 5 of them won superbowl MVP including Joe.

[jimmypowder]

8 minutes ago, gtalk12 said:

 

I don't think that's fair to Joe, Joe isn't some decent QB. In the current version of the NFL, there are only 7 QB's that have won superbowls including Joe. Of those 7 5 of them won superbowl MVP including Joe.

And he would have won another if Lee Evans doesn't  drop the ball. 

[BmoreBird22]

24 minutes ago, gtalk12 said:

I don't think that's fair to Joe, Joe isn't some decent QB. In the current version of the NFL, there are only 7 QB's that have won superbowls including Joe. Of those 7 5 of them won superbowl MVP including Joe.

I think Super Bowl MVP is largely rigged toward QB's, in a sense. You pretty much have to have one of two things happen to not win it. 1) A defender needs to play like Ray Lewis or Von Miller or 2) You need to play as poorly as Peyton Manning did. 

And I do think Joe is definitely a very strong playoff quarterback and I think the success of the Ravens largely hinges on him, but even in 2013 with Joe having his worst season to date, the Ravens were almost in the playoffs.

I love Flacco and I think he's a damn good quarterback, but I don't think he's some Super Hero because he won the Super Bowl. Like, what would we be saying if the 49ers had won the Super Bowl? What's the narrative then?

Edited February 12 by BmoreBird22

[BmoreBird22]

16 minutes ago, jimmypowder said:

And he would have won another if Lee Evans doesn't  drop the ball. 

Very hard to imagine the Ravens beating that Giants team. They were essentially the 2012 Ravens. Everything clicked at the right time.

[Tank 92]

2 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

The Ravens have always fielded better teams. They just largely needed someone who wasn't Boller bad.

LMAO!  So now he's not just "average Joe", he's the QB that  "wasn't Boller bad".  Too much!  

[Tru11]

On 11-2-2017 at 4:24 PM, gtalk12 said:

 

chain moving, eating up clock, making a throw to get us in field goal rahge....

 

Ryan could not move the chains when they needed him to, it wasn't the fact he did not throw a TD.

Ryan got them in FG range twice besides throwing for that TD.

how in your world did he manage that if he could not move the chains?

 

[BmoreBird22]

12 hours ago, Tank 92 said:

LMAO!  So now he's not just "average Joe", he's the QB that  "wasn't Boller bad".  Too much!  

Yeah, that is exactly what I said.

Glad you pulled that out of what I said so perfectly.

[Purple_City39]

15 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Very hard to imagine the Ravens beating that Giants team. They were essentially the 2012 Ravens. Everything clicked at the right time.

Really?  The 2011 Ravens, imo at least, were a better team than the 2011 Giants.  I know for some, not saying you, the logic might be "well they beat the team that beat us so they were better", but match-ups are a big thing in the NFL.  For whatever reason, the Patriots struggle with The Giants.  I can't see Eli and company even having the same little success they did against New England against Baltimore's defense that year.  If I'm not mistaken, 2011 was the season the Ravens offense played 8-9 games against top 10 defenses, so they were battle tested (although failed a few, like Jacksonville) against better defenses than the Giants #25 ranked scoring defense

 

[Tank 92]

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Yeah, that is exactly what I said.

Glad you pulled that out of what I said so perfectly.

What other connotation could there be in what you said. 

[BmoreBird22]

35 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

What other connotation could there be in what you said. 

That they just needed average. What they needed and what they got are two entirely different things.

And just as a side note, Joe early in his career was incredibly average in the playoffs, if not below average.

Edited February 13 by BmoreBird22

[Tank 92]

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

That they just needed average. What they needed and what they got are two entirely different things.

And just as a side note, Joe early in his career was incredibly average in the playoffs, if not below average.

You wrote what you wrote in response to me saying the Ravens ended up with the right guy between Flacco and Ryan.  In no way did you frame it that way when you first made the statement. But yeah,  OK.  lol

And on your side note; I think most would say Joe performed admirably early on in the playoffs considering he was so inexperienced and had zero time as an apprentice behind an NFL franchise QB.   

[Purple_City39]

2 hours ago, Tank 92 said:

You wrote what you wrote in response to me saying the Ravens ended up with the right guy between Flacco and Ryan.  In no way did you frame it that way when you first made the statement. But yeah,  OK.  lol

And on your side note; I think most would say Joe performed admirably early on in the playoffs considering he was so inexperienced and had zero time as an apprentice behind an NFL franchise QB.   

Not I.  I'm a huge Flacco fan, but his first two playoff seasons were abysmal overall.  Minus some good play in spot moments against the Titans, he was pure trash in the post season as a rookie.  I give him a pass in 2009 due to that really bad hip bruising he had that reportedly kept him from even sitting on the team bus at one point, but I don't know how anybody can look at those five games and say he performed admirably when we've seen rookie QBs, both before and after 08, not look that bad in their first playoff games