• Announcements

    • Admin 3

      UPDATED: MESSAGE BOARDS CLOSING AFTER DRAFT   03/08/2017

      After careful consideration, we have decided that we will sunset our message boards after this year's NFL Draft. Since we opened our boards a decade ago, the digital landscape has greatly evolved. While we understand there remains a smaller group of highly-engaged fans who participate in conversation in our forums, a significant amount of the dialogue about our team and our games has migrated away to other social media platforms over the past several years. Our message boards will remain up and running through Friday, May 5th, and will be removed on May 6th. We recognize that this change may upset avid members of our community. However, we look to utilize our time and resources to focus on how we can best connect with our fans across an array of digital/social outlets. If you are not already engaging us and other members of the Ravens Flock on our Facebook page, Instagram account, through Twitter or Snapchat, we invite you to follow us on those channels and continue to participate in our social communities. In addition, the commenting feature on our website articles will remain intact. Members will be able to continue using their boards account to log in and share their thoughts at the bottom of every news story. We’d like to thank all the Flock members and our moderators who have brought thoughtful conversation to this space and made our community great for the last 10 years. Ravens Social Media Hub »
3-4ravdef509

Torrey Smith or Mike Wallace

111 posts in this topic

I would actually take Torrey.  I just have a feeling that Wallace is going to continue to trend downward...he had an awesome start of the season and a meh finish to the season.  I think Torrey could bring similar skills, has more upside due to his age, and could probably come at same or lower cap hit.  Pair him with a proven possession receiver like Garcon (or someone similar) and then have Perriman as a 3rd receiver who has a chance to earn a bigger role.  I think that would be a respectable WR core...not great, but respectable.

 

-2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I don't think the offense was a perfect fit for Torrey, I think he was effective but the numerous slant/crossing patterns don't play up to his strengths, and I honestly feel the same way towards Mike Wallace, I don't think the offense is best fit for him either because he's not consistent on those routes either. I feel that in a different offense we could have seen a much better Torrey Smith, maybe we see a better Mike Wallace too. 

This is not directed to you, but I always wondered why Torrey caught so much flack here. He's not a super-star WR, but he's a good receiver and still is the only drafted receiver in franchise history to have a 1,000 yard season.

I don't think any of the Ravens fit the system and that's been the problem with the team since they tried to move away from the smash mouth run game based offense. They tried to make Flacco be the focal point of the offense by having him pass more and show off that arm, but I don't think they understand what he does best. He's not a fit in this current version of the West Coast offense. None of our receivers seem to get open. The only consistent (sort of due to missing time with injuries) person on the team who can always get open is Dennis Pitta. He's just got that knack for knowing how to separate and get open and split the zone coverage.

Now that Marty has the offense for the entire off season let's see just how different this offense looks with him running his own playbook. I better see some drastic changes otherwise we're gonna have a bunch of people on here asking why in the world we kept him if we are going to see more of the same of last year.

I never had a problem with Torrey. He's a speed burner with decent hands, but he's not a superstar. In the right system he can put up numbers with the right QB. The best season Flacco ever had was with two not so great elite guys that were just burners in Torrey and Jacoby Jones. Sooner or later our guys need to learn that they just can't run and give up on a play simply because their initial route is covered, they need to work to get open. This has been a trend for numerous years and we've had the same receivers coach the whole time. Looking for a place to make a change?

What's our secondary gonna look like now that Frazier is gone? He came in here and immediately turned around a team that was last place in interceptions last season to a team near the tops in the league. I hope somebody was taking notes.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

Let's compare some things here.

Wallace had his best seasons when he had QB's with strong arms; Ben Roethilisberger and Joe Flacco. Between those two he had some pretty mediocre seasons in Minnesota with Teddy Bridgewater and in Miami with Ryan Tannehill.

Take a look at what Torrey had in San Francisco. He's had to deal with the flip-flopping of Kaepernick and Blaine Gabbert. No receiver has had a good season with that travesty of a team in the past two seasons. And if you didn't know he missed 4 games this year because he went up and fought for a ball that was overthrown and during the tussle with the DB Torrey landed hard right on his head and was lights out for quite a while on the turf. He had a concussion but no other injury supposedly. So hopefully he's well enough to even come back to play next season and if so, it will be interesting to see what his market is after one meh kind of season and then a disastrous one like last year. Obviously if the Niners cut him they don't think he's worth what they are currently paying him.

Right player, right price. I think this move only happens if the Ravens make a move for Brandon Marshall if he becomes available. I also thought bringing back Boldin might be nice, but he's apparently thinking about retirement and apparently only wants to go back to Detroit.

 

Given the 12 games Torrey played in, because as you stated he was out for 4 he put up 297 yards. The year before he was only listed as a starter for 12 games also but played in all 16. Total 663 yards, Boldin put up 789 in the same 12 games. His second to last year. 

If you take the same first 7 years, Wallace has 3 1000 yard seasons, Torrey has 1. I get having weak QBs but isn't Gabbert known for having a good deep ball? It's his decision making and progressions along with terrible over the middle accuracy that's done him in. 

All in all TBH, and you mentioned it Marshall. Given average pre year, look at say Atlanta what they're paying, look at Cinnci, Redskins even Seattle. Last year the Skins paid both Jackson and Garçon 8m each. Atl paid Julio 14 and Sanu 6. BM got paid 8 in a injury riddled down season and is set to be a FA casulty. I was on the get Garçon train, because he's def getting cut. The Skins are gonna stick with Jackson and than they're younger guys because they gotta figure out how to retain Cousins. But at this point I think he's more a consolation prize. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

I never had a problem with Torrey. He's a speed burner with decent hands, but he's not a superstar. In the right system he can put up numbers with the right QB. The best season Flacco ever had was with two not so great elite guys that were just burners in Torrey and Jacoby Jones. Sooner or later our guys need to learn that they just can't run and give up on a play simply because their initial route is covered, they need to work to get open. This has been a trend for numerous years and we've had the same receivers coach the whole time. Looking for a place to make a change?

 

Here's the thing, we haven't had the same receivers coach the whole time.  These issues started a loooong time ago and Bobby Engram just got here in 2014.  I can't figure out why our receivers never try to help their QB out minus a few who were probably taught this before they got here (Mason and SSS).  The Packers flat out teach receivers to keep moving when their down their route if covered.  We see the Steelers receivers do it all the time as Ben made a career of "backyard football".  Our guys run their route......and then watch Joe to see what he does next while the corner stands next to them

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Halshayeji said:

Great post.

Well to answer your question, Torrey caught so much flack because "he didn't fight enough for that ball" if you know which one I'm talking about.

unfortunately, some people around here are so passionate in loving the Ravens and our QB Joe Flacco that they take criticizing his play as a personal insult and often find themselves blaming everyone and everything around Joe just to avoid the "paid like elite play like elite" conversation. 

On that pass, Torrey may have done a bit more to break up that pass but that's debateable. Also on that pass, Joe could have thrown it better which is also debateable. What's not debateable is that if Joe hadnt forced it into double coverage and had other options but decided to do so regardless then the Ravens would have had a few more opportunities to win that game. 

Joe took a risk, the reward would have been "hero of the day" and a huge win. But it didn't pay off and ultimately it was a bad play. So what?! Me personally, im glad Joe took that risk at that time and can live with the outcome because every NFL QB takes risks and sometimes they pay off and sometimes they don't. Unfortunately some people here took it so personal that they started attacking Torrey's work ethic and motor just to take attention away from a bad throw Joe may have made. And then Torry signed for the 49ers and it was game on. Bashing Torry became a regular occurance now that he's gone which is so unfortunate and unRaven.

He's not and never was a physical presence down there, neither is Mike Wallace and I saw him get beat on inside position plenty of times during the year. 

As far as that play goes, it was very well played by the safety and a very ill advised throw with plenty of space to run for a 1st down. I don't question the aggressiveness but the throw in that particular play was not needed, a TD was needed, that's why I'm not upset with being aggressive. If all we needed was a FG than I think we play a much safer drive. You can't play it safe against the Patriots, I totally understand that but the throw was just one that shouldn't have happened. 

I personally think so much could have happened during that 2013 season that could've kept him here. What if he had more help, better QB play, a run game, a consistent offense? He could have produced so much more and I personally think he could've made a run at getting an All-Pro vote, I know it sounds crazy but when I said he was having a monster season, I really mean it, the guy was on fire. It's just disappointing with what has happened and I feel like he's in the worse situation out there for a receiver still trying to make his mark. 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Purple_City39 said:

Here's the thing, we haven't had the same receivers coach the whole time.  These issues started a loooong time ago and Bobby Engram just got here in 2014.  I can't figure out why our receivers never try to help their QB out minus a few who were probably taught this before they got here (Mason and SSS).  The Packers flat out teach receivers to keep moving when their down their route if covered.  We see the Steelers receivers do it all the time as Ben made a career of "backyard football".  Our guys run their route......and then watch Joe to see what he does next while the corner stands next to them

Good point to bring up. Before Engram we had a ST failure and bum coaching WR. Everyone thought he was gonna be a savior. And this far that hasn't been the case. However we really haven't given him much to work with either. Perriman, who most draft experts said, has 2 routes. And his claim to fame was beating CBs who are currently working at McDonalds. And than he stubs his toe and is out for a year. Than you hand him a former QB who has physical tools but has never run a route in his life. Than a couple other bottom of the barrel guys. You can't get blood from a turnip. Honestly I don't get how NE does it, they're 2 primary receivers are short white dudes, and than have another tall white dude who sucked in college. And you can say Brady all day long, but damn. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

I don't think any of the Ravens fit the system and that's been the problem with the team since they tried to move away from the smash mouth run game based offense. They tried to make Flacco be the focal point of the offense by having him pass more and show off that arm, but I don't think they understand what he does best. He's not a fit in this current version of the West Coast offense. None of our receivers seem to get open. The only consistent (sort of due to missing time with injuries) person on the team who can always get open is Dennis Pitta. He's just got that knack for knowing how to separate and get open and split the zone coverage.

Now that Marty has the offense for the entire off season let's see just how different this offense looks with him running his own playbook. I better see some drastic changes otherwise we're gonna have a bunch of people on here asking why in the world we kept him if we are going to see more of the same of last year.

I never had a problem with Torrey. He's a speed burner with decent hands, but he's not a superstar. In the right system he can put up numbers with the right QB. The best season Flacco ever had was with two not so great elite guys that were just burners in Torrey and Jacoby Jones. Sooner or later our guys need to learn that they just can't run and give up on a play simply because their initial route is covered, they need to work to get open. This has been a trend for numerous years and we've had the same receivers coach the whole time. Looking for a place to make a change?

What's our secondary gonna look like now that Frazier is gone? He came in here and immediately turned around a team that was last place in interceptions last season to a team near the tops in the league. I hope somebody was taking notes.

I think Steve Smith was a great fit for the offense and it clearly showed it. He could attack the deep middle of coverage and run those slant/crossing routes very well because of how physical he was, he just couldn't be pressed on in tight man coverage and he beat linebackers at the point of attack. He was also a sneaky good deep threat and safeties couldn't sleep on him there. His chemistry with Joe was also on point most of the time. Thing is, I don't think Wallace struggles against linebackers at all, but he's not physical enough against man-press CBs and doesn't win inside position that often either. Those weaknesses are very identical to Torrey, but I felt that Torrey could've had a monster year in 2013 had outside factors related to poor QB play, poor OL play, and a non-existent run game not been so blatantly awful. 

I had my criticism of Torrey time to time, but we were so lucky to have him, let's not forget that back in the 2011 draft we were debating whether to take Torrey Smith or Greg Little, let's be happy that we ended up with the former and not the latter. He's not perfect nor was he an elite receiver but we all know that, why are we judging him by that merit? 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me ideally we keep Wallace on his current contract and hope Perrimann has a good developmental year and can replace wallace in 2018. No more extending players only to resent them later please. Trying to recreate the past seldom works and I have a feeling having Torrey back in bmore would be a let down for the team and it's fans. If Marshall becomes available we should go at him hard. Marshall, Wallace, Perriman, (Campanero) would be a decent line up. Moore is all ready a difference maker on st and could progress as a wr moving forward. Maybe they push Waller back into the WR group if Camp is not brought back? No room for him as a TE.  

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep Wallace, develop C.Moore and draft (2) more receivers in early to mid rounds. I'm also sure an undrafted player is in the equation or at least should be.

-2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wallace is the better receiver but Joe has some synergy with Torrey. 

 

Its a tough call. Can we have them both? 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about this hypothetical:
 

- Wallace (expensive speed guy) & Pierre Garcon

OR

- Torrey (cheaper speed guy) & Brandon Marshall

   

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, terrynjulia03 said:

Given the 12 games Torrey played in, because as you stated he was out for 4 he put up 297 yards. The year before he was only listed as a starter for 12 games also but played in all 16. Total 663 yards, Boldin put up 789 in the same 12 games. His second to last year. 

If you take the same first 7 years, Wallace has 3 1000 yard seasons, Torrey has 1. I get having weak QBs but isn't Gabbert known for having a good deep ball? It's his decision making and progressions along with terrible over the middle accuracy that's done him in. 

All in all TBH, and you mentioned it Marshall. Given average pre year, look at say Atlanta what they're paying, look at Cinnci, Redskins even Seattle. Last year the Skins paid both Jackson and Garçon 8m each. Atl paid Julio 14 and Sanu 6. BM got paid 8 in a injury riddled down season and is set to be a FA casulty. I was on the get Garçon train, because he's def getting cut. The Skins are gonna stick with Jackson and than they're younger guys because they gotta figure out how to retain Cousins. But at this point I think he's more a consolation prize. 

In that season you are using to compare Boldin and Torrey I think you left out some important details.

Targets:

Boldin was targeted 111 times, catching 69 passes of his 789 yards with 4 TD's and a 11.4 YPR average which is not all that wonderful.

Torrey was targeted 62 times catching 33 passes for 663 yards with 4 TD's and a 20.1 YPR average which is amazingly good.

The only other receivers on the team with around 30 receptions had half the yardage of Torrey or less.

Your point about Wallace having 3 1,000 yard seasons emphasizes my point. Two of them were with Ben, then there's a four season gap between his next one here in Baltimore with Joe.

Torrey hasn't even played 7 seasons yet.

I am all for adding Garcon to this roster if we can't get Marshall. I think he'd be a good fit and would help our offense quite a bit. He'd be a very good complimentary piece but I don't think that's what this team needs. We need a proven #1 and I don't see that guy on this roster yet. Marshall would definitely be that player.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, polynesian15 said:

How about this hypothetical:
 

- Wallace (expensive speed guy) & Pierre Garcon

OR

- Torrey (cheaper speed guy) & Brandon Marshall

   

I'd take that second option in a heart beat. Brandon Marshall and Perriman at the outside guys would be a matchup nightmare.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, polynesian15 said:

How about this hypothetical:
 

- Wallace (expensive speed guy) & Pierre Garcon

OR

- Torrey (cheaper speed guy) & Brandon Marshall

   

I really don't think Torrey Smith will be much cheaper than Mike Wallace..... I also think Brandon Marshall would be more expensive than Pierre Garcon.... 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

I really don't think Torrey Smith will be much cheaper than Mike Wallace..... I also think Brandon Marshall would be more expensive than Pierre Garcon.... 

I agree I think Torrey and Wallace will probably be a similar price.  To me, there is more upside with Torrey because of age.  I fear that we are going to continue to see a dropoff in play with Wallace.  I would LOVE to see Torrey and Garcon or Torrey and Marshall.

Edited by VermontRaven
typo
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, VermontRaven said:

I agree I think Torrey and Wallace will probably be a similar price.  To me, there is more upside with Torrey because of age.  I fear that we are going to continue to see a dropoff in play with Wallace.  I would LOVE to see Torrey and Garcon or Torrey and Marshall.

I just think Wallace proved more this last year in this system. So many drag routes taken for 40 or 50 yards because of his open field speed. I just have never really seen that from Torrey Smith. I think both receivers have a good amount left in the tank... I'm surprised more people aren't talking about Desean Jackson at this point. Yes there is the age but I see more playmaking ability out of him than Smith.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, trevorsteadman said:

I just think Wallace proved more this last year in this system. So many drag routes taken for 40 or 50 yards because of his open field speed. I just have never really seen that from Torrey Smith. I think both receivers have a good amount left in the tank... I'm surprised more people aren't talking about Desean Jackson at this point. Yes there is the age but I see more playmaking ability out of him than Smith.

Personally I think Jackson has benefited more from Garçon taking attention away and them having a seam TE threat. Leaving him mostly one on one. Just never really seen him good enough to beat coverages, not that Wallace is a world beater either, but given the options and same price I'll take the guy Joe knows. In this case. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing Torrey does better is drawing penalties. Wallace is light years ahead of torrey at catching the ball and running routes.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

In that season you are using to compare Boldin and Torrey I think you left out some important details.

Targets:

Boldin was targeted 111 times, catching 69 passes of his 789 yards with 4 TD's and a 11.4 YPR average which is not all that wonderful.

Torrey was targeted 62 times catching 33 passes for 663 yards with 4 TD's and a 20.1 YPR average which is amazingly good.

The only other receivers on the team with around 30 receptions had half the yardage of Torrey or less.

Your point about Wallace having 3 1,000 yard seasons emphasizes my point. Two of them were with Ben, then there's a four season gap between his next one here in Baltimore with Joe.

Torrey hasn't even played 7 seasons yet.

I am all for adding Garcon to this roster if we can't get Marshall. I think he'd be a good fit and would help our offense quite a bit. He'd be a very good complimentary piece but I don't think that's what this team needs. We need a proven #1 and I don't see that guy on this roster yet. Marshall would definitely be that player.

Torrey caught around 50% of his targets. That's a terrible statistic and exactly why I'm glad we didn't overpay him. Torrey had 20 catches for 250 yards last year, besides sentimental reasons, why the heck would we want him back. Sure, his quarterback situation has been messy, but Torrey has been nothing short of terrible in SF.

Edited by ravensnick
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don't know that we have an identity on offense. Every week we tend to go in a different direction. I do know we have a quarterback that likes to throw the deep ball, but neither Wallace or Smith man up to fight for it. I say we quit with the FA market guys and finally draft a wr at 16, so we can finally put our wr quandary to rest.

Edited by ravensnj
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, ravensnj said:

I really don't know that we have an identity on offense. Every week we tend to go in a different direction. I do know we have a quarterback that likes to throw the deep ball, but neither Wallace or Smith man up to fight for it. I say we quit with the FA market guys and finally draft a wr at 16, so we can finally put our wr quandary to rest.

Just my opinion, but I don't think run-first offense win SBs without an all-time great defense. If you look at all of the elite defenses who won the SB, 2013 Seahawks, 2015 Broncos, 2000 Ravens or 1985 Bears, they were primary rushing attacks but they won because they had a defense so great that they could control the tempo of the game and allow the offense to have massive TOP. 

We can't have that right now and I think the passing game should be as big of a priority as the run game. I would like to see the Ravens be able to beat anyone through the air and just crush teams there, teams are winning that way now, it's a passing league so why not get with the times? Of course the run game should be a big part of the offense but not the primary focus. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

Just my opinion, but I don't think run-first offense win SBs without an all-time great defense. If you look at all of the elite defenses who won the SB, 2013 Seahawks, 2015 Broncos, 2000 Ravens or 1985 Bears, they were primary rushing attacks but they won because they had a defense so great that they could control the tempo of the game and allow the offense to have massive TOP. 

We can't have that right now and I think the passing game should be as big of a priority as the run game. I would like to see the Ravens be able to beat anyone through the air and just crush teams there, teams are winning that way now, it's a passing league so why not get with the times? Of course the run game should be a big part of the offense but not the primary focus. 

Let's just take the past 2 years. Teams who have made the championship game, not just the SB. Lost my other notepad that had the past 10 years and really don't feel like doing that research again, so just did the past 2 years. Which prob matters more as they keep coming out with more and more rule changes. Anyways:

2016            Offense ranking( Overall, Passing, Rushing)    Defense (Overall, passing, rushing)

Packers.           7,7,20.                                                      22,2,8

Falcons.            2,3,5.                                                        25,5,17

Steelers.          8,5,14.                                                    12,17,13

NE.                   4,4,7.                                                       8,21,3

 

2015. 

Arizona            1,2,8                                                     5,8,5

Carolina           11,24,2                                                 6,11,4

NE                    6,5,30                                                  9,17,9

Denver            16,14,17                                                1,1,3

 

Now all you can take from that is a team with a top 5 in any category can make it, but plenty of others with better top 5 numbers didn't even make the playoffs. there's no magical formula, it's all about match ups  

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking at age... I almost would rather have Garcon at this point than Marshall. I would be happy with either but those couple years difference may catch up to Marshall before Garcon. Plus Garcon is probably a cheaper option.. I really think the Ravens need a new WR coach. They never seem to be developed. Perriman needs a huge role next year.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 7:59 PM, polynesian15 said:

How about this hypothetical:
 

- Wallace (expensive speed guy) & Pierre Garcon

OR

- Torrey (cheaper speed guy) & Brandon Marshall

   

 

YES

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, trevorsteadman said:

Looking at age... I almost would rather have Garcon at this point than Marshall. I would be happy with either but those couple years difference may catch up to Marshall before Garcon. Plus Garcon is probably a cheaper option.. I really think the Ravens need a new WR coach. They never seem to be developed. Perriman needs a huge role next year.

 Pierce Garcon wants 7 million a year and had  a better season than Brandon Marshall. If Marshall was to get cut by The Jets who is making 7.5 million right now I would like to think he'll be cheaper than Garcon. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Shammy said:

I say neither they should've drafted stefon diggs

Too late for that....the coulda shoulda woulda game does no good.  The question is which of these 2 would you rather have.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the topic of free agent Wrs, Cruz just got released from the Giants. He's probably cheaper than Garcon and should have another couple solid years left in him.

-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

On the topic of free agent Wrs, Cruz just got released from the Giants. He's probably cheaper than Garcon and should have another couple solid years left in him.

Na, those injuries really got to him. Kenny Britt might be available

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

On the topic of free agent Wrs, Cruz just got released from the Giants. He's probably cheaper than Garcon and should have another couple solid years left in him.

Which solid years has he had since his injury?

And by "probably cheaper than Garcon", its likely literally a fraction of the price of Garcon. I'm not even sure Cruz will get more than veteran minimum type deals.

Edited by rmcjacket23
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now