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3-4ravdef509

Torrey Smith or Mike Wallace

111 posts in this topic

8 hours ago, Wildabeast88 said:

Wallace is due 8. Mil we save 5.75 if we cut him.

No, he's due $5.75M, with a cap hit of $8M.

$2.25M of his cap hit (the dead money) is for 1/2 of the signing bonus he was paid last year. He's already been paid that bonus.

He's getting a $4.75M salary in 2017 with a $1M roster bonus.

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4 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

No, he's due $5.75M, with a cap hit of $8M.

$2.25M of his cap hit (the dead money) is for 1/2 of the signing bonus he was paid last year. He's already been paid that bonus.

He's getting a $4.75M salary in 2017 with a $1M roster bonus.

Yeah that's right poor wording on my part that was what I meant to say. That's why you don't post when you are half asleep.

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Wallace over Torrey all day long. Until we get the O'line fixed Joe will not have the time nor the nerve to wait for the deep plays to develop and Torrey being a one trick pony can only run straight and fast.  Remember when he was on the team, his routes were awful, he got the case of "the short arms" in traffic etc. Wallace still runs pretty good routes, fights for the ball and plays mean. I like Wallace much more then Torrey.

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On 2/3/2017 at 3:17 PM, Ravenseconbeast said:

Neither are really the answer.   Both are similar with speed with limited route/hands.

I want another Derrick Mason/Steve Smith Sr. guy

I would like to see a Pierre Garcon or someone similar, but that's unlikely to happen due to the fact that last season they signed to player that count against the compensatory pick formula.

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Wallace showed he can run more routes than just going long. Wallace went over the middle of the field and caught short to mid range passes through out the season. I want Wallace to stay. I dont believe Wallace is a true #1 WR bur he is a very viable #2 WR and Perriman can keep growing into a viable #3 WR . Oz and Decosta need to find the Ravens a true #1 WR that can compliment Wallace and Perriman.

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11 hours ago, Halshayeji said:

we both know that theres like 1% of a chance of that happening. But heck if it does then il be the first to celebrate and give you all the credit in the world. When it comes to Wallace. It would really be dumb to just cut him. Hes coming off a 1K yard season and whatever team gets him only has to pay 5.75 mil of his salary. So if we do part ways with Wallace then trade him dont just cut him.

Hence the part where i said, i dont think this happens lol. 

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On 2/3/2017 at 10:25 AM, rmcjacket23 said:

If I had to choose between the two, it would be Torrey because he's younger.

Obviously doesn't make sense to have both, because then you're entire WR core is just a bunch of outside speed receivers. Unless we plan on running 4 verticals and throwing hail mary's all game long, that doesn't put us in a position to have a good offense.

Rmcjacket , you helped me a lot to understand the cap system and while I know it is unlikely that he would come back to us. ,I don't understand with the cap system how he could come back to us? I am thinking that his real salary is  lot smaller than his cap hit, but wouldn't it cost him a salary cut at least on paper?

 

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Get Torrey on a cheap 1 yr deal and keep Wallace and draft a good possession receiver or pray Campanaro eventually decides to stay healthy. 

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12 hours ago, Swift 1 said:

Rmcjacket , you helped me a lot to understand the cap system and while I know it is unlikely that he would come back to us. ,I don't understand with the cap system how he could come back to us? I am thinking that his real salary is  lot smaller than his cap hit, but wouldn't it cost him a salary cut at least on paper?

 

If the 49ers release him, then he's a FA with no contract, so a team could sign him to whatever deal they wanted.

For 2017, you are correct. He has a $6.5M salary, with $1.5M in offseason roster and workout bonuses, so he's due $8M. His cap hit is $9.6M, with $4.8M in dead money.

So the 49ers could move on from him and gain $4.8M in cap space. I suppose if you looked at his lack of production in SF, paying him $8M this season doesn't seem good either, especially for a team rebuilding.

That being said, the reason I doubt he comes back to Baltimore is because he and Mike Wallace are the same player, and you could argue Perriman is a similar player as well. I see no scenario where Torrey and Wallace are on the team at the same time, so it would be one or the other. It would seem cheaper to just keep Wallace at that point.

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Great question because they both bring a little something extra to the game in that Smith and Flacco have the chemistry and Smith still has deep speed but that's all he brings to the table as a WR. Wallace isn't the best route runner and no longer has that killer speed but he's shown he can still do all that to some capacity.  I think as a complete weapon Wallace is just better than Smith but if you're talking teammate and deep threat then Smith may be better.  I recall Wallace getting visibly upset at times last year so this could factor into the equation as well. 

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Torrey crested 1000 yards ONCE in his 4 years here and has been a disaster for the niners. Nah for the money I'll keep Wallace. Lol

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On 2/3/2017 at 11:00 AM, rmw10 said:

I love this sentiment as well.  Wallace has 0 reason to accept a paycut.  If he were to be released, there's a strong likelihood he's going to be able to get $5.75M+ on the open market after what he did last year.  It actually gives him an opportunity to rack up some more guaranteed money a year earlier.  For that reason, there's no sense in him taking a pay cut.

I think when people say this they don't actually mean pay cut.... they really mean lowered cap hit. 

While you're right there's no way he takes less money this year after the #'s he put up last year, you might be able to lower his cap hit with an extension. 

And the Ravens might have at least a little leverage in that discussion to get a fair deal. While Wallace could easily decline an offer and bet on himself to play this year out and try to earn more as a FA next offseason.... there's definitely a risk on his part. 

Hes coming off his best season in a long time... a down season, an injury, diminished role, etc... could all have a real negative impact on his value. No matter what he's going to be another year older. 

So he could be open to an extension that gives him overall more guaranteed money than he stands to make this year, and that lowers his cap hit for the team. 

 

Just depends on how the team views him, and what value they place on him going forward. 

 

To the OP... if you could get Torrey on a decent 3 year deal with a cap hit lower than $5.75m this year I'd have to strongly consider it. He's younger and has proven chemistry and production with Joe. 

But he's not a great fit for the offense. It'd be mostly a lateral move on paper. It's a like for like replacement where you're not improving the WR position really - you still have to add more.

it only really makes sense if he costs a decent amount less, or he's willing to sign a longer term contract at that decent amount less. In that case 2017 may be a wash on paper, but if Torrey locks in that high end deep threat for 3-4 years at a value then I'd strongly consider it vs losing Wallace after this season, or having to extend him into his mid-30's. 

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29 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I think when people say this they don't actually mean pay cut.... they really mean lowered cap hit. 

While you're right there's no way he takes less money this year after the #'s he put up last year, you might be able to lower his cap hit with an extension. 

And the Ravens might have at least a little leverage in that discussion to get a fair deal. While Wallace could easily decline an offer and bet on himself to play this year out and try to earn more as a FA next offseason.... there's definitely a risk on his part. 

Hes coming off his best season in a long time... a down season, an injury, diminished role, etc... could all have a real negative impact on his value. No matter what he's going to be another year older. 

So he could be open to an extension that gives him overall more guaranteed money than he stands to make this year, and that lowers his cap hit for the team. 

 

Just depends on how the team views him, and what value they place on him going forward. 

 

To the OP... if you could get Torrey on a decent 3 year deal with a cap hit lower than $5.75m this year I'd have to strongly consider it. He's younger and has proven chemistry and production with Joe. 

But he's not a great fit for the offense. It'd be mostly a lateral move on paper. It's a like for like replacement where you're not improving the WR position really - you still have to add more.

it only really makes sense if he costs a decent amount less, or he's willing to sign a longer term contract at that decent amount less. In that case 2017 may be a wash on paper, but if Torrey locks in that high end deep threat for 3-4 years at a value then I'd strongly consider it vs losing Wallace after this season, or having to extend him into his mid-30's. 

I'm all for an extension.  I think some people are thinking of a literal pay cut though.  This certainly isn't the first time a "pay cut" has been mentioned.  I think the main point is that Wallace has all of the leverage.

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19 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I'm all for an extension.  I think some people are thinking of a literal pay cut though.  This certainly isn't the first time a "pay cut" has been mentioned.  I think the main point is that Wallace has all of the leverage.

Well then yea, if they actually think he'd consider a straight pay cut - that's just stupid. If anything he's got an argument to ask for more. 

I like the extension route. Make it a 3 yr deal and try to lock him in at a $5-7m cap hit over the next 3 years. 

If he refuses and thinks he can earn more on the open market, and Torrey would be willing to sign a deal for less than that - that's the only way I'd consider cutting Wallace and signing Torrey. 

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5 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

Great question because they both bring a little something extra to the game in that Smith and Flacco have the chemistry and Smith still has deep speed but that's all he brings to the table as a WR. Wallace isn't the best route runner and no longer has that killer speed but he's shown he can still do all that to some capacity.  I think as a complete weapon Wallace is just better than Smith but if you're talking teammate and deep threat then Smith may be better.  I recall Wallace getting visibly upset at times last year so this could factor into the equation as well. 

Now that I think about it, I really don't know. OP put up a good question. 

I honestly think scheme comes into effect and it might be somewhat of an effect for Torrey. I think we could've saw a much better Torrey Smith had he played in an offense that didn't feature so many crossing/shallow patterns because his stiff hips and trouble with his breaks, he just didn't run those routes consistently well. I feel like we could have gotten a lot more in another offense from him. Same case can be made for Wallace but Torrey didn't get to show as much as he could. Let's not forget, in the 2013 season Torrey Smith led the league in receiving yards with 623 and we completely burning guys as the de facto #1 WR with virtually no help at the other receiver positions, running game, and to include poor QB play that was contributed largely by lack of an OL and running game. Team knew Torrey was the only capable receiver but he completely destroying coverage and defensive backs. His 2013 season could've been a big year for him, I'm talking potentially 1,300 Yards and 6+TDs had he gotten the help he needed and that's in an offense that's not the best fit for him. I always felt that Torrey catches way too much slack here, his 2013 season is impressive given the circumstances and maybe...just maybe his 2014 season was simply a down year comparable to the seasons we've seen from guys like Alshon Jeffery, Brandon Marshall, and others. 

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I'm also seeing a lot of comments about the chemistry between Joe and Torrey, and I can't say I agree with that.  In fact, I believe that a lot of the reason that we let Torrey walk is because he and Flacco never really seemed to have that connection.  They had their big games, but there were a ton of times where they didn't look to be on the same page.  A lot of Flacco's picks were intended for Torrey.

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5 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I'm also seeing a lot of comments about the chemistry between Joe and Torrey, and I can't say I agree with that.  In fact, I believe that a lot of the reason that we let Torrey walk is because he and Flacco never really seemed to have that connection.  They had their big games, but there were a ton of times where they didn't look to be on the same page.  A lot of Flacco's picks were intended for Torrey.

 

I have to agree. It appeared as if Mike Wallace and Flacco have some chemistry. Hell, I'd argue that Flacco was starting to trust PERRIMAN more down the line than he ever did for Torrey. 

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1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Well then yea, if they actually think he'd consider a straight pay cut - that's just stupid. If anything he's got an argument to ask for more. 

I like the extension route. Make it a 3 yr deal and try to lock him in at a $5-7m cap hit over the next 3 years. 

If he refuses and thinks he can earn more on the open market, and Torrey would be willing to sign a deal for less than that - that's the only way I'd consider cutting Wallace and signing Torrey. 

I can't see how you can do a 3 year deal with him at the $5-7M cap range. You may be able to get like one year at $5M, but the back end year is going to be $8-9M, much like this deal is.

If you have a consistent cap hit in that range, that means he's signing a deal that's averaging like $6M a year. You yourself said there's no reason for him to take a paycut, and he's averaging $5.75M a year from last year and this year, and that was when his value was at an all time low. So if I'm him, I don't think I'm listening to any offers that don't start at around $6-7M a year.

I personally wouldn't extend him, mostly because I'm not that interested in his skill sets 2-3 years from now. Speed is his most viable asset, and that's going to diminish and diminish quickly over the next few years. 

I'm either keeping him this year as is, or I'm cutting him entirely. I'm not looking to invest more years in him.

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It's a no contest - Mike Wallace is a better player. Works well with Joe, too - if anything, we should see improvement in year two.

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56 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I can't see how you can do a 3 year deal with him at the $5-7M cap range. You may be able to get like one year at $5M, but the back end year is going to be $8-9M, much like this deal is.

If you have a consistent cap hit in that range, that means he's signing a deal that's averaging like $6M a year. You yourself said there's no reason for him to take a paycut, and he's averaging $5.75M a year from last year and this year, and that was when his value was at an all time low. So if I'm him, I don't think I'm listening to any offers that don't start at around $6-7M a year.

I personally wouldn't extend him, mostly because I'm not that interested in his skill sets 2-3 years from now. Speed is his most viable asset, and that's going to diminish and diminish quickly over the next few years. 

I'm either keeping him this year as is, or I'm cutting him entirely. I'm not looking to invest more years in him.

Because it would give him more guaranteed money than he stands to make this year, and a very good chance to get a 2nd year at what his current market value would be coming off this past year - his best in a while. 

The only way i see him making even $7m or more next year in FA is if he replicates or improves upon his 2016.... and if I'm a betting man I doubt that happens. 

If im a realistic, 30+ year old receiver whose greatest asset is diminishing I might very well try to get the most out of this good year I had. If we keep him on his current number and he doesn't perform to his 2016 numbers he's not getting $7m in the open market. 

So for him, it can make sense. 

For the team... if they value what he brings to the table and think he can give you close to what he did in 2016 for another year or two it can make sense too. 

Get this year cheaper, push this years situation to next year essentially and have a 3rd year where he's easily cuttable with little or no cap hit. 

 

Bc as it stands right now Wallace can't cash in on his big year. He's getting $5.75m if we keep him.

If he could parlay that into an additional $4m this year... I can think of 4 million reasons why he might. 

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2 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Because it would give him more guaranteed money than he stands to make this year, and a very good chance to get a 2nd year at what his current market value would be coming off this past year - his best in a while. 

The only way i see him making even $7m or more next year in FA is if he replicates or improves upon his 2016.... and if I'm a betting man I doubt that happens. 

If im a realistic, 30+ year old receiver whose greatest asset is diminishing I might very well try to get the most out of this good year I had. If we keep him on his current number and he doesn't perform to his 2016 numbers he's not getting $7m in the open market. 

So for him, it can make sense. 

For the team... if they value what he brings to the table and think he can give you close to what he did in 2016 for another year or two it can make sense too. 

Get this year cheaper, push this years situation to next year essentially and have a 3rd year where he's easily cuttable with little or no cap hit. 

 

Bc as it stands right now Wallace can't cash in on his big year. He's getting $5.75m if we keep him.

If he could parlay that into an additional $4m this year... I can think of 4 million reasons why he might. 

The guaranteed money isn't going to factor in much, because no team is going to give him a contract that guarantees him more than 1 year. 

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5 hours ago, rmw10 said:

I'm also seeing a lot of comments about the chemistry between Joe and Torrey, and I can't say I agree with that.  In fact, I believe that a lot of the reason that we let Torrey walk is because he and Flacco never really seemed to have that connection.  They had their big games, but there were a ton of times where they didn't look to be on the same page.  A lot of Flacco's picks were intended for Torrey.

That's true but I think where they were deadly together in terms of generating that DPI. Other than that they were hit or miss.

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Simply put, I think Wallace is a far better receiver and with a more consistent offense Wallace and joe could get multiple 1000 yard connections.

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23 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

That's true but I think where they were deadly together in terms of generating that DPI. Other than that they were hit or miss.

I think the dpis were almost rehearsed. Torrey struggled to locate the deep ball so often early on that suddenly joe began underthrowing him and constantly getting dpis which looked like it was done on purpose more often than not

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4 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Simply put, I think Wallace is a far better receiver and with a more consistent offense Wallace and joe could get multiple 1000 yard connections.

I don't think Wallace is a far better receiver and I don't know about multiple 1000 yard seasons given the decline we saw from him in the 2nd half of the season. During the 2013 season Torrey led the entire league in receiving yards at one point of the year with 629 yards, I don't think Wallace came close to even sniffing that. The only person who pass him during that stretch was Calvin Johnson and that was due to his legendary 329 yard game. 

He was on pace for a monster year but lost steam due to things that were not in his favor such as ineffective QB play(Courtesy of the sub-par talent that surrounded Joe), an awful run game, and absolutely limited receiving threats. It was a dreadful offense and I don't think it's even close to as bad as what we saw this past year from this offense. It honestly makes this years offense look elite. Even with that, Torrey was killing defenses backs and coverages as literally the only receiving threat, even looking back on those games, while Torrey saw a huge drop-off in his production, he was still able to pull coverages deep and over the middle and give guys like Jacoby Jones, Dennis Pitta and Marlon Brown plenty of 1v1 opportunities. 

I don't think the offense was a perfect fit for Torrey, I think he was effective but the numerous slant/crossing patterns don't play up to his strengths, and I honestly feel the same way towards Mike Wallace, I don't think the offense is best fit for him either because he's not consistent on those routes either. I feel that in a different offense we could have seen a much better Torrey Smith, maybe we see a better Mike Wallace too. 

This is not directed to you, but I always wondered why Torrey caught so much flack here. He's not a super-star WR, but he's a good receiver and still is the only drafted receiver in franchise history to have a 1,000 yard season.

Edited by PurpleCity5
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On 2/4/2017 at 5:45 AM, Halshayeji said:

we both know that theres like 1% of a chance of that happening. But heck if it does then il be the first to celebrate and give you all the credit in the world. When it comes to Wallace. It would really be dumb to just cut him. Hes coming off a 1K yard season and whatever team gets him only has to pay 5.75 mil of his salary. So if we do part ways with Wallace then trade him dont just cut him.

That's not how contracts work in the NFL. If the Ravens cut him they only owe him whatever the guaranteed money was. Chances are he got that in his first year. Once he's cut he's an unrestricted free agent and he is free to sign with any team for whatever contract he can get.

What you are describing is closer to a baseball contract. If a team cuts a player (and this usually happens with very expensive players in their final contract year) the original team owes him the entire contract minus whatever the major league minimum is for that season. The team that signs this player pays the major league minimum salary part which is also pro-rated for the amount of games left in the season when he joins his new team. So, say player A is making 15 million in his last season and he's doing horribly and is blocking an up and coming youngster. You cut him. Team Q signs him and only has to pay him the $250,000 major league minimum salary. It seems pretty crazy that any team would do this, but it actually happens pretty often in MLB.

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On 2/5/2017 at 0:00 PM, terrynjulia03 said:

Torrey crested 1000 yards ONCE in his 4 years here and has been a disaster for the niners. Nah for the money I'll keep Wallace. Lol

Let's compare some things here.

Wallace had his best seasons when he had QB's with strong arms; Ben Roethilisberger and Joe Flacco. Between those two he had some pretty mediocre seasons in Minnesota with Teddy Bridgewater and in Miami with Ryan Tannehill.

Take a look at what Torrey had in San Francisco. He's had to deal with the flip-flopping of Kaepernick and Blaine Gabbert. No receiver has had a good season with that travesty of a team in the past two seasons. And if you didn't know he missed 4 games this year because he went up and fought for a ball that was overthrown and during the tussle with the DB Torrey landed hard right on his head and was lights out for quite a while on the turf. He had a concussion but no other injury supposedly. So hopefully he's well enough to even come back to play next season and if so, it will be interesting to see what his market is after one meh kind of season and then a disastrous one like last year. Obviously if the Niners cut him they don't think he's worth what they are currently paying him.

Right player, right price. I think this move only happens if the Ravens make a move for Brandon Marshall if he becomes available. I also thought bringing back Boldin might be nice, but he's apparently thinking about retirement and apparently only wants to go back to Detroit.

 

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1 hour ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

That's not how contracts work in the NFL. If the Ravens cut him they only owe him whatever the guaranteed money was. Chances are he got that in his first year. Once he's cut he's an unrestricted free agent and he is free to sign with any team for whatever contract he can get.

What you are describing is closer to a baseball contract. If a team cuts a player (and this usually happens with very expensive players in their final contract year) the original team owes him the entire contract minus whatever the major league minimum is for that season. The team that signs this player pays the major league minimum salary part which is also pro-rated for the amount of games left in the season when he joins his new team. So, say player A is making 15 million in his last season and he's doing horribly and is blocking an up and coming youngster. You cut him. Team Q signs him and only has to pay him the $250,000 major league minimum salary. It seems pretty crazy that any team would do this, but it actually happens pretty often in MLB.

That's not what I meant brother. I know the Ravens are on hook for the guaranteed part of his contract and yes you are correct. He got most of that last year when he signed. So regardless if the Ravens cut or trade him then some 2.25 or 3.25 depending on when the Ravens do so (roster bonus) is dead cap the the Ravens must swallow.

the remaining 4.75 or 5.75 that the Ravens owe Wallace this tear is the cap hit that any team would inherit if they traded for Wallace. So they ultimately get a 1k yard WR for that price if they trade for him and that's worth something in my opinion. 

If the Ravens cut Wallace then all bets are off. Then it's a bidding war between teams Wallace ssigns a new contract. the Ravens have 2.25 mil in dead cap 

thus, if the Ravens find a better option and decide to let go of Wallace for whatever reason then I hope it's via trade not just flat out cut. 

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3 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I don't think Wallace is a far better receiver and I don't know about multiple 1000 yard seasons given the decline we saw from him in the 2nd half of the season. During the 2013 season Torrey led the entire league in receiving yards at one point of the year with 629 yards, I don't think Wallace came close to even sniffing that. The only person who pass him during that stretch was Calvin Johnson and that was due to his legendary 329 yard game. 

He was on pace for a monster year but lost steam due to things that were not in his favor such as ineffective QB play(Courtesy of the sub-par talent that surrounded Joe), an awful run game, and absolutely limited receiving threats. It was a dreadful offense and I don't think it's even close to as bad as what we saw this past year from this offense. It honestly makes this years offense look elite. Even with that, Torrey was killing defenses backs and coverages as literally the only receiving threat, even looking back on those games, while Torrey saw a huge drop-off in his production, he was still able to pull coverages deep and over the middle and give guys like Jacoby Jones, Dennis Pitta and Marlon Brown plenty of 1v1 opportunities. 

I don't think the offense was a perfect fit for Torrey, I think he was effective but the numerous slant/crossing patterns don't play up to his strengths, and I honestly feel the same way towards Mike Wallace, I don't think the offense is best fit for him either because he's not consistent on those routes either. I feel that in a different offense we could have seen a much better Torrey Smith, maybe we see a better Mike Wallace too. 

This is not directed to you, but I always wondered why Torrey caught so much flack here. He's not a super-star WR, but he's a good receiver and still is the only drafted receiver in franchise history to have a 1,000 yard season.

Great post.

Well to answer your question, Torrey caught so much flack because "he didn't fight enough for that ball" if you know which one I'm talking about.

unfortunately, some people around here are so passionate in loving the Ravens and our QB Joe Flacco that they take criticizing his play as a personal insult and often find themselves blaming everyone and everything around Joe just to avoid the "paid like elite play like elite" conversation. 

On that pass, Torrey may have done a bit more to break up that pass but that's debateable. Also on that pass, Joe could have thrown it better which is also debateable. What's not debateable is that if Joe hadnt forced it into double coverage and had other options but decided to do so regardless then the Ravens would have had a few more opportunities to win that game. 

Joe took a risk, the reward would have been "hero of the day" and a huge win. But it didn't pay off and ultimately it was a bad play. So what?! Me personally, im glad Joe took that risk at that time and can live with the outcome because every NFL QB takes risks and sometimes they pay off and sometimes they don't. Unfortunately some people here took it so personal that they started attacking Torrey's work ethic and motor just to take attention away from a bad throw Joe may have made. And then Torry signed for the 49ers and it was game on. Bashing Torry became a regular occurance now that he's gone which is so unfortunate and unRaven.

Edited by Halshayeji
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