[News] Eric DeCosta: Ravens Must Try To Retain Brandon Williams

[ellicottraven]

6 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Well given that the cost of cutting Pitta is effectively the same as the cost of cutting Watson, you would just be better off keeping the guy you think is the better player and who will be more valuable.

While Pitta has his own history of injuries certainly, it would seem keeping the 31 year old (who your QB obviously loves and trusts) coming off a healthy, pretty successful season would be smarter than keeping the 36 year old TE who never played a snap for you and is coming off a devastating injury.

Especially when the price is essentially the same from a cap perspective.
 

Well that tidbit uproots my strategy! Is the cost of cutting Pitta that high in terms of dead money?

[Ravens8383]

I will always wonder what Paul Kruger was thinking when we walked away from the Ravens to go to the Browns. Sure he got paid but he got paid to be apart of a franchise that falls apart each year. If I'm Ozzie I just point that out. You can get paid or you can get paid and play here where every year you have a chance to win it all.

[bigcatfrank1]

  6 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Well given that the cost of cutting Pitta is effectively the same as the cost of cutting Watson, you would just be better off keeping the guy you think is the better player and who will be more valuable.

While Pitta has his own history of injuries certainly, it would seem keeping the 31 year old (who your QB obviously loves and trusts) coming off a healthy, pretty successful season would be smarter than keeping the 36 year old TE who never played a snap for you and is coming off a devastating injury.

Especially when the price is essentially the same from a cap perspective.
 

Well that tidbit uproots my strategy! Is the cost of cutting Pitta that high in terms of dead money?

Yep jacket is on it, and yeah at this point the way Pitta played last year his value is back to starter for the remaining year of his contract on the Ravens depth chart. May as well keep the guy now, he sure has battled back, gotta give him credit. May as well see if they can turn Watsons cash into somewhere it might help. Unless there is a trade offer for one of the young Tight ends, that would be the only way they consider keeping Watson and Pitta, though highly unlikely

[law215]

I will always wonder what Paul Kruger was thinking when we walked away from the Ravens to go to the Browns. Sure he got paid but he got paid to be apart of a franchise that falls apart each year. If I'm Ozzie I just point that out. You can get paid or you can get paid and play here where every year you have a chance to win it all.

Keep in mind Brandon came in after the 2012 season. Since then Ravens missed the playoffs 3 out of 4 years. That's not a strong argument to say take less to win more.

I agree that Williams is a must keep. He makes smaller size LB like Mosley better and everyone on the D-line is better because of Williams.

[sizzlingdoom]

Would like to have him back, but Wagner has to be priority #1. Continuity along the line is of the utmost importance. Sure our run D will take a hit without BWill, even if Pierce continues to impress, but we can't seriously let our second most consistent olineman walk and expect to have improved line play. We've got a replacement in house for BWill, not Wagner, we'd have to gamble on his replacement. It just simply doesn't make any sense to prioritize Williams over Wagner.

Unfortunately I think you're right. Losing BWILL is gonna suck. His loss would not be acceptable AT ALL without Pierce. But Pierce is a complete stud. Hopefully Carl Davis wakes up......all these unproductive/wasted draft picks are killin us

[sizzlingdoom]

Would be really great to see him stay... too bad we wasted that cap space on a 36 yoa TE who has had exactly one good season in his career, and a washed up return specialist who made bad decisions and couldn't hang on to the ball. Let's hope we have learned something from our mistakes.

Doesn't seem like it. Not only does every Ravens know that Joe's contract is screwing us, but it just seems like every year there's thoughts of "only if we didn't have those 2 or 3 contracts/dead money" It's amazing we've been able to stay competitive at all with all these bad contracts, coaching, and drafting. Things need to change. Now. Hopefully we're not wasting another year or worse, with Biscotti not cleaning house

[zing21042]

Sounds good but Dacosta and the Ravens kbnow that this guy is as good as gone. Ravens never win bidding wars. They must be banking on Pierce. Then what happens when he gets good? He will be gone too. Again a big thank you to Joe Flacco.

That is why I said a while back that because of poor management of the salary cap, the Ravens have become the poster child for farm club teams in the NFL. We get them young, train them, then when they get good, we let them go because we cannot afford to pay them. We hope that the next man up can fill in. It has kept us competitive but barely.

In the end, we won the first Super Bowl with defense and a mediocre QB.

[zing21042]

  14 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Well given that the cost of cutting Pitta is effectively the same as the cost of cutting Watson, you would just be better off keeping the guy you think is the better player and who will be more valuable.

While Pitta has his own history of injuries certainly, it would seem keeping the 31 year old (who your QB obviously loves and trusts) coming off a healthy, pretty successful season would be smarter than keeping the 36 year old TE who never played a snap for you and is coming off a devastating injury.

Especially when the price is essentially the same from a cap perspective.
 

Yeah - it seems to me that Watson is a very likely cut candidate and definitely a more likely candidate than Pitta. Honestly, Pitta should under consideration for a cut as well given the investments we've made in drafting TEs over the last couple years. Unfortunately, none of them have developed into players we can trust. 

How can you tell that "...none of them (TEs) have developed into players we can trust..."? Last year, Flacco only targeted Pita and gave few other TEs a chance to catch the ball. In the end, we have no idea what the new core of TEs could do without Pita.

[RavenSwag]

I would love to have Brandon back. He's a baller but we all know we can't afford to keep everybody especially with the multiple holes we have to fill.

[Crusader]

I wish they felt that way about Ngata. Take a look at the sack difference when Ngata left the last two years. If Ravens end up paying Williams equal to or more than Ngata then this team is more stupid than I thought.

[BigUgly]

Nice sentiment by DeCosta, and the Ravens may make what would otherwise be a reasonable offer, but Williams will be relatively overpaid by someone else.   We should let him walk and hope he earns us a 3rd round comp pick in return (as KO has).  Pierce is a solid replacement, and actually has more burst up the middle to put pressure on the QB.  If for some reason he can't do the job, you know Ozzie & Co. have their eyes on another great NT that none of us have even heard of who will plug right in, just like Gregg, Williams, and (hopefully) Pierce.

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, zing21042 said:

How can you tell that "...none of them (TEs) have developed into players we can trust..."? Last year, Flacco only targeted Pita and gave few other TEs a chance to catch the ball. In the end, we have no idea what the new core of TEs could do without Pita.

When exactly were there opportunities for guys like Watson, Boyle, Gillmore and even Maxx to catch the football? One guy spent 10 games suspended, one guy never played a regular season snap due to injury, and the other two spent over half the season injured or on IR. 

How exactly can you trust somebody who's not even available to play?

In the end, you're right, we don't have any idea what a new core of TEs could do without Pitta. And I for one am not interested in finding out at the moment either. They could flourish, or they could completely bottom out. And when they bottom out, the hypocritical fans will come out in droves and shred Ozzie for not addressing the position or upgrading it.

Welcome to the wonderful world of being just a fan. You get all the perks of hindsight with zero of the risks.

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, Crusader said:

I wish they felt that way about Ngata. Take a look at the sack difference when Ngata left the last two years. If Ravens end up paying Williams equal to or more than Ngata then this team is more stupid than I thought.

Ngata made $12M/year back in 2011 and played a different position than Williams. They won't pay Brandon that much.

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, zing21042 said:

That is why I said a while back that because of poor management of the salary cap, the Ravens have become the poster child for farm club teams in the NFL. We get them young, train them, then when they get good, we let them go because we cannot afford to pay them. We hope that the next man up can fill in. It has kept us competitive but barely.

In the end, we won the first Super Bowl with defense and a mediocre QB.

And you forgot about the part where they go to other teams and struggle for the most part...

[BiggMack91]

  20 hours ago, BiggMack91 said:

he's not worth the money even if we had it 6 mil a year is the most I would give him if he wants more good bye 96 tackles, 4.5 sacks and three forced fumbles in 4 years is not that impressive Ngata in his first 4 years had 124 solo tackles 6.5 sacks 2 forced fumbles 3 interceptions so again I don't think he's worth more than 6 mil a year

Whats the basis for the $6M number?

Also, I'd point out that Ngata's deal (which was signed in 2011 in a small salary cap era) was for 5 years, $61M, so an average of about $12M a year.

So if you use just the stats that you referenced (which aren't really that relevant, especially when you consider that Ngata and Brandon didn't play the same position in their first four years), then Brandon is about 80% as effective of a player as Ngata.

So if Ngata was worth $12M 5-6 years ago, and Brandon is 80% of the player he is now, then how do you justify paying him $6M, which is 50% less.

I assume now that the $6M was just a "thumb in the air" calculation conjured out of thin air?

the 6 mill was the most that I think we could pay him without killing the cap space and with his production it seems the most reasonable price for him which is my opinion

[whobilly]

This is real easy to figure out. Who ever over pays him the most is where he will wind up.

[rmcjacket23]

20 minutes ago, BiggMack91 said:

the 6 mill was the most that I think we could pay him without killing the cap space and with his production it seems the most reasonable price for him which is my opinion

I mean cool, I guess. Just seems odd that you think he's 80% of the player of Ngata in terms of production, yet he's worth 50% less... six years later.

Just doesn't really pass the well-thought-out test for me.

Edited January 27 by rmcjacket23

[bigcatfrank1]

  On 1/26/2017 at 3:39 PM, rmcjacket23 said:

  On 1/26/2017 at 1:16 PM, BiggMack91 said:

he's not worth the money even if we had it 6 mil a year is the most I would give him if he wants more good bye 96 tackles, 4.5 sacks and three forced fumbles in 4 years is not that impressive Ngata in his first 4 years had 124 solo tackles 6.5 sacks 2 forced fumbles 3 interceptions so again I don't think he's worth more than 6 mil a year

Whats the basis for the $6M number?

Also, I'd point out that Ngata's deal (which was signed in 2011 in a small salary cap era) was for 5 years, $61M, so an average of about $12M a year.

So if you use just the stats that you referenced (which aren't really that relevant, especially when you consider that Ngata and Brandon didn't play the same position in their first four years), then Brandon is about 80% as effective of a player as Ngata.

So if Ngata was worth $12M 5-6 years ago, and Brandon is 80% of the player he is now, then how do you justify paying him $6M, which is 50% less.

I assume now that the $6M was just a "thumb in the air" calculation conjured out of thin air?

the 6 mill was the most that I think we could pay him without killing the cap space and with his production it seems the most reasonable price for him which is my opinion

The Ravens could pay most position prices, just like most teams. If they wanted they could overpay for Wiliams, but they wont. He is probably worth the money that he gets, considering his talent. My opinion he will get an offer, from a team in need, somewhere in the 10mil/ 4yr range.

I think the Ravens could pay 10 mil but they wont, He is probably worth it to some teams but they might not be as good as the Ravens thats why they need him.
The Ravens should consider around 8+ mill though, he is worth it, that is a very fair price for a top 10 DT, maybe the Best in the NFL.
The key is to convince him to stay and win the Ring. That is where the incentive/ pride/ and money is.
If they can convince WIlliams to stay at 8mil /4 yrs with some incentives and
Wagner to stay for 5.5 prg to 6.5 mill/ 3 years (5) with some incentives they should be able to make things work.
let Doom, Zutta and Watson go,i think that is 13.5 in cap space . I would give them up at this point in a heartbeat to keep Williams and Wagner.

[rmcjacket23]

14 hours ago, bigcatfrank1 said:

The Ravens could pay most position prices, just like most teams. If they wanted they could overpay for Wiliams, but they wont. He is probably worth the money that he gets, considering his talent. My opinion he will get an offer, from a team in need, somewhere in the 10mil/ 4yr range.

I think the Ravens could pay 10 mil but they wont, He is probably worth it to some teams but they might not be as good as the Ravens thats why they need him.
The Ravens should consider around 8+ mill though, he is worth it, that is a very fair price for a top 10 DT, maybe the Best in the NFL.
The key is to convince him to stay and win the Ring. That is where the incentive/ pride/ and money is.
If they can convince WIlliams to stay at 8mil /4 yrs with some incentives and
Wagner to stay for 5.5 prg to 6.5 mill/ 3 years (5) with some incentives they should be able to make things work.
let Doom, Zutta and Watson go,i think that is 13.5 in cap space . I would give them up at this point in a heartbeat to keep Williams and Wagner.

Keep in mind that there's a big difference between a 4-3 DT and a 3-4 NT. They're asked to do different things, and the best of the best 4-3 DTs also rush the passer, which Brandon Williams doesn't.

The top tier DTs in the league are making anywhere between $14-19M a year. Those are your Suh's, Fletcher Cox, Marcell Dareus, Gerald McCoy, Malik Jackson types. The difference is that those guys get to the QB, and Williams doesn't.

For me, I think he slots right in there with Damon Harrison, Corey Liuget, and Tyrone Crawford type deals. Right there in the $9-10M range. 

Also note that those types of players are getting less than half of their contract guaranteed, and none of them got more than $20M guaranteed. You can do a 5 year, $50M deal with Williams if you want to, as long as the guaranteed money stays down in the $20M range. That basically makes it a 2-3 year deal at that point.

[RavensDieHard21]

I am 90% confident we keep either Williams or Wagner. Which one? That is so unclear right now. I am almost positive it will be Williams. With the new trend being to stock up on O lineman, Wagner might get offered even more than Williams. 

RT is more important, but I think that Lewis can fill that role or a draft pick could as well. A lot of our defensive line talent is solid, but how would they look without Williams there? I don't think we will find out. 

[purpledown]

Heard the Ravens are making signing Williams a priority. Hope thats true and they do it soon, before free agency starts.

[balfan23]

On 1/27/2017 at 7:42 AM, zing21042 said:

How can you tell that "...none of them (TEs) have developed into players we can trust..."? Last year, Flacco only targeted Pita and gave few other TEs a chance to catch the ball. In the end, we have no idea what the new core of TEs could do without Pita.

You fired back to my post in opposition and basically proved my point ... because we have no idea what they can do, it is kind of hard to trust them to take the reins. . 

It could be that we ultimately do put the trust in them and just cross our fingers that they can do the job .. without any idea of how effective they will be. The reason is we've got to make cuts across the board to free cap space to sign players to fill other holes. If that is the case and we part ways with both Watson and Pitta, then I certainly hope they come through for us, cause we're gonna need them to. 

[balfan23]

18 hours ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

I am 90% confident we keep either Williams or Wagner. Which one? That is so unclear right now. I am almost positive it will be Williams. With the new trend being to stock up on O lineman, Wagner might get offered even more than Williams. 

RT is more important, but I think that Lewis can fill that role or a draft pick could as well. A lot of our defensive line talent is solid, but how would they look without Williams there? I don't think we will find out. 

I agree that we're going to keep one and only one. The price on Wagner may go up more than expected, not only because building an O line is a new trend, but that the O line draft and FA class is relatively weak. The catch 22 there is - if we let him walk, we have to go to the same weak draft and FA class to get another starter on the line - but also to get better depth. That upgrade at center that so many are hoping for will be very hard to 

Our O line was spotty even when healthy - and staying healthy all year on the O line is a pipe dream. Bottom line is, if we let Wagner walk, we're going to need to focus a lot of resources on the O line or suffer with another year of seeing Flacco panicking in the pocket and watching the run game go nowhere. 

[RavenManiac#7]

  On 1/27/2017 at 7:38 AM, zing21042 said:

That is why I said a while back that because of poor management of the salary cap, the Ravens have become the poster child for farm club teams in the NFL. We get them young, train them, then when they get good, we let them go because we cannot afford to pay them. We hope that the next man up can fill in. It has kept us competitive but barely.

In the end, we won the first Super Bowl with defense and a mediocre QB.

And you forgot about the part where they go to other teams and struggle for the most part...

I don't think that the players give a hoot about struggling with new teams. The only thing they care anything at all about is the money. Players today just follow the money. No team loyalty. No better chance to win a ring. Just chasing the money.

[RavenManiac#7]

  On 1/27/2017 at 7:42 AM, zing21042 said:

How can you tell that "...none of them (TEs) have developed into players we can trust..."? Last year, Flacco only targeted Pita and gave few other TEs a chance to catch the ball. In the end, we have no idea what the new core of TEs could do without Pita.

When exactly were there opportunities for guys like Watson, Boyle, Gillmore and even Maxx to catch the football? One guy spent 10 games suspended, one guy never played a regular season snap due to injury, and the other two spent over half the season injured or on IR. 

How exactly can you trust somebody who's not even available to play?

In the end, you're right, we don't have any idea what a new core of TEs could do without Pitta. And I for one am not interested in finding out at the moment either. They could flourish, or they could completely bottom out. And when they bottom out, the hypocritical fans will come out in droves and shred Ozzie for not addressing the position or upgrading it.

Welcome to the wonderful world of being just a fan. You get all the perks of hindsight with zero of the risks.

Every point you made with this post is Spot On.

[BigUgly]

 

On 1/27/2017 at 9:22 AM, rmcjacket23 said:

When exactly were there opportunities for guys like Watson, Boyle, Gillmore and even Maxx to catch the football? One guy spent 10 games suspended, one guy never played a regular season snap due to injury, and the other two spent over half the season injured or on IR. 

How exactly can you trust somebody who's not even available to play?

In the end, you're right, we don't have any idea what a new core of TEs could do without Pitta. And I for one am not interested in finding out at the moment either. They could flourish, or they could completely bottom out. And when they bottom out, the hypocritical fans will come out in droves and shred Ozzie for not addressing the position or upgrading it.

Welcome to the wonderful world of being just a fan. You get all the perks of hindsight with zero of the risks.

Of course you realize this means Ozzie will draft O.J. Howard, the Alabama TE, with our first pick just so we can have ALL the tight ends.

[rmcjacket23]

3 hours ago, RavenManiac#7 said:

I don't think that the players give a hoot about struggling with new teams. The only thing they care anything at all about is the money. Players today just follow the money. No team loyalty. No better chance to win a ring. Just chasing the money.

Well I don't blame them either. In particular, most of the players we are talking about are mid-round picks who played out their rookie contract and made maybe $2-3M total over a four year period, all while playing at a value that is significantly higher than that. So when it comes time to get paid, I don't blame them for going wherever the money is. There's no guarantee of winning on any team, and the team certainly isn't loyal to the player. Players careers are short enough... they've got to maximize their earning potential as much as possible.

If they somehow manage to play a 10-15 year career and have made good money, then towards the end they can think about chasing a ring. But you won't see too many 25-30 year olds out there saying "i'll take less to win a ring". 

[rmcjacket23]

2 hours ago, BigUgly said:

 

Of course you realize this means Ozzie will draft O.J. Howard, the Alabama TE, with our first pick just so we can have ALL the tight ends.

Maybe so. If he's the best player on our board, then we could certainly take him. 

There's very few positions on the roster where I couldn't justify using a first round pick on. Plenty of positions need upgrades, and TE is one that would qualify.

[Drew P]

18 hours ago, BigUgly said:

 

Of course you realize this means Ozzie will draft O.J. Howard, the Alabama TE, with our first pick just so we can have ALL the tight ends.

Fine, the roster certainly has quantity not quality.

[ByTheBay]

On 1/26/2017 at 8:44 PM, bigcatfrank1 said:

Nose tackles command big money in the NFL, its one of the "big" money positions. So Brandon and his Agent know it. The real issue is what team will offer him the money and will they be a contender. Because if he takes 10mil with a below .500 team and misses the playoffs it could hurt him rather than staying with the Ravens for 8 mil and playing in 2 playoff games and getting to the Super-Bowl that would be lights out above a 4 year/40mil

Ravens fans are living in the past. We are the below .500 team you speak of. Brandon Williams was drafted in 2013. He has only seen 2 playoff games in the 4 years he has been here. Granted they were an exciting 2 games but he hasnt tasted the same post season success as the pre SB Harbaugh team did. Why on earth would he take a home town discount for mediocrity?