[News] Eisenberg: Hardest Parts Of Running Game Reboot Still Lie Ahead

[CQ1]

Bull-hockey.

[BigUgly]

i see lots of fingers being pointed around in the article, but they are skipping a big Juan if you ask me....

I see what you did there.

[The Beak]

What is the cause of the disconnect between where Zuttah graded out (9th best Center in football) and how people view his value.  If he is as good as his grade said then why is he the issue and if not how did he get that grade?

Zuttah is just not athletic , smart nor tough enough to control a Ravens run attack, what I viewed this year was a center who constantly held, and made the wrong calls , and got beat 80% of the time. he was by far our weakest link upfront, I don't care what he graded out he was just plain terrible..

[reed20]

14 hours ago, TorryGundy said:

Every time we have a run game conversation I get confused.

Here are my questions. If everyone says 4 out of the 5 parts of our line was so good, can a bad center really wreck an O line or are we over valuing some of the other parts?

Why did we not run behind our full back more?

Why are all of the coaches surprised we did not run more, don't they call the plays?

Why are we staying an a Zone scheme when it only worked the Kubiac year, our line was made to maul not finesse?
 

Besides Zuttah, the personnel on our offensive line are all effective at what they do. It picked up in the latter part of the year and a lot of that is credited to the emergence of Dixon as a two dimensional back. That opened things up with Flacco and the defense had to defend the pass more. I really hope we don't make some enormous move to get a premier back when we could use that money in more needed areas. Dixon and West is a good combination and I think Dixon may take over some football games in 2017.

Edited January 18 by reed20

[sizzlingdoom]

Gee.....we need O-line help if we are to run the ball WOW! Thank God we hired a new coach instead of a big center,tackle,guard. Flacco might be "elite" if he had time to throw,let's hire a new QB coach....or better yet a new WR coach instead of a route running YOUNG "elite" pass catcher.

Flacco is not elite. That was put to bed this season

[sizzlingdoom]

Great article. I would argue one point though, which kind of goes hand in hand with what you are saying; that KD and TW can't break a long run. How many times did either back make it through the line of scrimmage before contact. Its impossible to break runs with any consistency when you have to fight just to get through the line of scrimmage every run. If Dixon has the holes Zeke has in Dallas he would have popped numerous long runs, he is faster than ray rice was coming out of school and RR could flip the field.

agreed. I also think Dixon will break plenty of long ones with better blocking and more running

[sizzlingdoom]

We have to resign Wagner. I don't see how we can consider letting him go

[BigUgly]

We have to resign Wagner. I don't see how we can consider letting him go

If Wagner commands anything near the $10M a year than some have suggested, he'll be gone. Alex Lewis can slot in at right, which leaves a somewhat easier hole to fill at LG. Juice may also be gone, but is easily replaced - hard to replace his athleticism as a pass catcher but very easy to find an equal or better run-blocker.

We need maulers along the interior of the line, so say goodby to Zuttah. Ducasse is a decent run blocker, but a liability in pass protection. Hurst remains as a swing Guard/Tackle.

The loss of Castillo should be good for an additional 20 yards rushing per game right off the bat. Adding Roman, Harbs tap dancing on Marty to call run plays, and a more seasoned Dixon ought to be good for another 20 per game.

[sizzlingdoom]

  3 hours ago, sizzlingdoom said:

We have to resign Wagner. I don't see how we can consider letting him go

If Wagner commands anything near the $10M a year than some have suggested, he'll be gone. Alex Lewis can slot in at right, which leaves a somewhat easier hole to fill at LG. Juice may also be gone, but is easily replaced - hard to replace his athleticism as a pass catcher but very easy to find an equal or better run-blocker.

We need maulers along the interior of the line, so say goodby to Zuttah. Ducasse is a decent run blocker, but a liability in pass protection. Hurst remains as a swing Guard/Tackle.

The loss of Castillo should be good for an additional 20 yards rushing per game right off the bat. Adding Roman, Harbs tap dancing on Marty to call run plays, and a more seasoned Dixon ought to be good for another 20 per game.

The part that I disagree with big time is "Lewis can slot in at right"
He may be able to, but how can you be so sure? He hasn't even played a full season in the NFL. And what, did he play 1 or 2 games maybe at Tackle this year? He was at guard the whole time he played just about this year right? As you alluded to, Guard is a much easier slot to fill. Because Tackle is more difficult and is more important as it's on the edge. So I don't understand how you can just hand the Tackle spot to a guy that hasn't played a full season yet, or Guard at all. Especially when Wagner has been very very good for us. And when we're trying to improve our line- relying on basically a rookie at the Tackle position. And I'm not talking about an overall #6 pick. Maybe he can do it, but I think relying on that would be foolish.
KO got a lot of money, but himself and Yanda were the best Guards in football this year. Did the Raiders overpay 2-3.5 mil a year for him? Maybe...maybe not. Looking back on it, I have a feeling a lot of the front office would gladly go back and overpay for him if they could. We've had so many bad contracts lately, and have been wasting money galore, that why not overpay 2 mil a year for a guy that has been pretty reliable while also playing at a very very high level. And plays a very important position. An idea I like more is trying to work it out with Wagner, while putting Lewis at LG. Then if we could just draft a Mauling Center in the 2nd or 3rd our line would be set for years. I really like that idea. Even if we have to "overpay" for Wagner. I think the amount per year would be relatively minimal, and the risk-reward for both situations heavily favors keeping Wagner with how important Tackle is and how good Wagner has been. I know it's not easy, and if he wants to leave, he wants to leave. But I hope we keep in. The only way I could see justification for doing it the other way, is if we spent that 10+ mil on a guy like Berry or Gilmore instead. Just my opinion

[slowboater]

Steve: “I don’t think that we’re going to be successful putting the ball in the air 600-and-some times. It’s just not our identity, and I don’t know how we got that far away from it.” Translation: Joe is not Brady, Aaron, Drew or even Matt Ryan. What the heck?? Why did John let Mark and Marty let Joe throw it so much less than one year removed from ACL surgery? John's and Marty's job is make or break this year. Trestman ran the ball 35.8% of the time. Marty ran the ball 34.7%. Nice job John.

Ozzie: “We need to improve in the offensive line,” Translation: Zuttah got beat up, pushed around and exposed. Unless the Ravens wiff on a replacement, he will be gone. As for Wagner? The guy has earned a right to negotiate an nice new contract. I wonder what he will "settle" for to stay in Baltimore?

[slowboater]

Gotta get another RB 6ft 230-240 lbs like Willis McGahee and B. Pierce! I like whom we have now but in the draft gotta get another big back because Willis was a beast and Pierce was rite on track but we all know how that ended! I just don't want to wear our backs out when we have all this fire power at WR!

Name just one of the Ravens' WR firepower.

[slowboater]

  18 hours ago, TorryGundy said:

Every time we have a run game conversation I get confused.

Here are my questions. If everyone says 4 out of the 5 parts of our line was so good, can a bad center really wreck an O line or are we over valuing some of the other parts?

Why did we not run behind our full back more?

Why are all of the coaches surprised we did not run more, don't they call the plays?

Why are we staying an a Zone scheme when it only worked the Kubiac year, our line was made to maul not finesse?

"Specifically, extending Joe Flacco’s contract with a boatload of new guaranteed money before they were forced to and when he was coming off a down season can be debated. Spending precious salary cap space on an old tight end in Ben Watson, who was promptly injured, after the team had been decimated by injuries in previous seasons was another head scratcher. And choosing a pair of defenders on Day 2 of the draft, Kamalei Correa and Bronson Kaufusi, who did not have the pedigree or NFL ready bodies to provide instant coffee was suspect." There a lot of that going around.

They did not know if Pitta was going to make it. And Gilmore and Williams still have not proved their worth. How is that a head scratcher?

[BigUgly]

Sizzlingdoom, I think Lewis will be fine at RT. He started 26 consecutive games at the much more difficult LT position for Nebraska, earned second-team Big10 marks. That offense was among the top in the conference in scoring, rushing yards and passing yards, and ranked ninth in the nation in fewest sacks allowed.

No point in overpaying (or even paying market for) Wagner when we have so many other glaring needs in a cap-constrained offseason (WR, C, OG, CB, FS, OLB, FB).

[sizzlingdoom]

  13 hours ago, Purple Dawg 96 said:

Gotta get another RB 6ft 230-240 lbs like Willis McGahee and B. Pierce! I like whom we have now but in the draft gotta get another big back because Willis was a beast and Pierce was rite on track but we all know how that ended! I just don't want to wear our backs out when we have all this fire power at WR!

Name just one of the Ravens' WR firepower.

I would call Wallace firepower, if used correctly. I would even call Perriman borderline. He tall and incredibly fast, and seems to like tough catches more than easy ones. Needs to figure that out. I just think we're missing that big bodied wr, or a sure handed, catch contesting guy. Like Q and SSS. The 3rd and 6. I like Perriman and Wallace with their speed, but they shouldn't be counted on for a number role or the other role I pointed out. I said if used correctly at the top. The Ravens just can't seem to figure out how to coach Offense in the NFL. It's kinda weird. Moore might even be pretty sweet, but doubt he'll play up to his potential with us. I don't think we have a number one, but I think we have some dangerous wrs and deep threats

[sizzlingdoom]

Sizzlingdoom, I think Lewis will be fine at RT. He started 26 consecutive games at the much more difficult LT position for Nebraska, earned second-team Big10 marks. That offense was among the top in the conference in scoring, rushing yards and passing yards, and ranked ninth in the nation in fewest sacks allowed.

No point in overpaying (or even paying market for) Wagner when we have so many other glaring needs in a cap-constrained offseason (WR, C, OG, CB, FS, OLB, FB).

We'll see. I think it's very risky. I'm also worried about how we'd spend the other money then. Since we've had some bad contracts lately. You listed the needs there-
The FA wr list looks awful to me. Kinda like Wright and Jefferey but both of them have their ?s
Center is a big need I think. Maybe one will become ava but right now the list looks really bad
Guard- I like Lewis and Yanda
And I think CB is our biggest need by far. But I think there are 6-8 first round corners in the draft this year. I think we can get an amazing one just sitting right at 16. I really like Wilson, Tabor, King, and Jones. King+Tavon+Jimmy= we're set for years.
FS is a tricky one and has seemed to be since Ed left. Kinda a different idea but I like cutting or trading Webb, and Signing Chyphrien. He's average at pass D, but rated as the best S run defender. I think him at SS, and Weddle at FS would improve our overall run D, and improve our FS play big time. I don't think he'll break the bank either.
I don't think you need to spend money or a pick even on a FB. Or even use one as much as we do
And I don't know how good the olb FA list is. Plus Sizzle, Judon, and Z isn't a bad start. We'll see if we keep Doom. I wouldn't mind spending some 4th and 5th round picks on some though. Maybe one in the second if one falls, but we better go cb in the first, then I'm kinda hoping for a C and WR in any order in the 2nd and 3rd. Unless a crazy defender falls. I wish we would sit 16, then get back into the first again for an impact defender, but I doubt the Ravens will do that. Wish they would start making use of their 2nd and 3rd round picks. They've got a couple, but in the past 7 years they've had a lot of big whiffs in the 1rst-3rd. And with those college stats...they're nice, but the NFL is different. I like Lewis, but I'm thinking people are overeacting a little.
Plus sorry to everyone if my posts are hard to read sometimes with the grammar. I'm on west coast time so I'm always on here between 10pm-6am and I'm at work. So I'm tired and forget a letter or word here or there

[Adreme]

9 hours ago, The Beak said:

Zuttah is just not athletic , smart nor tough enough to control a Ravens run attack, what I viewed this year was a center who constantly held, and made the wrong calls , and got beat 80% of the time. he was by far our weakest link upfront, I don't care what he graded out he was just plain terrible..

If he is so terrible though then why did he grade so high?  I dont know whether he is or not because I am not an OL specialist but it seems like there is a disconnect between the perception of the fans and the perception of the people breaking down tape unless the other side of the coin is that the league only has 8 good centers in which case finding one is likely not an easy task.

Basically if he had actually done all the things you said I cant see why he would grade this high unless there is some metric to the grading that I am not understanding.

[Rav'n Maniac]

I'm not too concerned about getting a playmaking RB at this point. I think they should put there efforts first and foremost to rebuilding the Oline into a beast. We need a couple of maulers at C & RT first. Then they need to get West and Juice resigned.

[sizzlingdoom]

I'm not too concerned about getting a playmaking RB at this point. I think they should put there efforts first and foremost to rebuilding the Oline into a beast. We need a couple of maulers at C & RT first. Then they need to get West and Juice resigned.

I don't think I would resign either. I think West is average, maybe a little better. And I think juice is overated and wants to test FA and go find some money. Prime time for him to do so, esp for a FB. I think we save 5-7 mil a year by not resigning them.
I agree about building the line for sure. Wagner has been really good though, I hope can can keep him at T with Lewis at G.
I think Dixon is a play maker though. That guy is ridiculous. Needs to work on blitz picks ups though. Instead of resigning West I would spend a 4-6th round pick on a back to team up with Dixon. Either a blazer or a bruiser. Probably a blazer.

[Crusader]

This is just crazy talk. The running game is terrible so lets get another running back? NO, stop kidding yourself this Offensive line is not good either by talent, trained or depth. Offense is bad lets spend what limited money they have on a big time receiver and maybe Joe will have time to throw a couple of passes during a game while he running for his life. If they fix the Offensive line the defense does not get exhausted and can play at a constant high level during the whole game. You can have a young Jerry Rice and young John Riggins but it will not matter. Slow Joe just needs more time.

[Drew P]

5 minutes ago, Crusader said:

This is just crazy talk. The running game is terrible so lets get another running back? NO, stop kidding yourself this Offensive line is not good either by talent, trained or depth. Offense is bad lets spend what limited money they have on a big time receiver and maybe Joe will have time to throw a couple of passes during a game while he running for his life. If they fix the Offensive line the defense does not get exhausted and can play at a constant high level during the whole game. You can have a young Jerry Rice and young John Riggins but it will not matter. Slow Joe just needs more time.

No cash=no big time WR. In addition there really isn't any just chilling out waiting for a phone call. Besides, that's what the draft is for check out Pitt, ATL, NE and GB's roster that's how they are in hunt this year. You can add DB's to that conversation as well the Raven's suck at drafting in that department.

[RavenManiac#7]

I think that Morhinweg doesn't have a choice in the matter. If he wants to stay as our OC which, frankly, I Still wish he had not been allowed to, he better at least start out with an obviously greater commitment to the running game. I think that he was pretty well put on notice that if that doesn't happen, regardless of his personal opinion about it, he's not going to continue on here. I mean, it was pretty well unanimous, and when the Owner expresses his opinion on it which, as stated, he doesn't usually do, one better listen. After all, it's the owner who signs the paychecks. One might argue whether or not Harbs is on the hot seat, but it sure does seem that the seat is, at least, getting fairly warm. I'm not so sure that Harbaugh's "my way or the highway" mindset is as much in force as in years past. What I mean by that is if Morhinweg doesn't show more of a commitment to the running game, I think Harbaugh would find himself in a position where Bisciotti would mandate to him that either Morhinweg goes or Harbs does. I think that Harbs' much stated loyalty to his coaches just might not be as tolerated as it has been to this point. Many on here have opined that this could be a make or break year for Harbs. I tend to agree.

[RavenManiac#7]

We do need a CLEAR franchise RB. We could have kept Rice..but that's another topic. The problem though, is our staff focusing the emphasis on Flacco, and not the entire team. They somehow think that Flacco is Brady material or something, and that if we simply put in WR's that have speed, then we will score TD's like hotcakes at Denny's. That does not work. If anything the team with the most successful offense has possession, clutch receivers. Not a bunch of receivers that have good 40 yard dash numbers.

That brings me to my next point, should we draft a QB with potential to lead this team? When they paid Flacco all that money, was it center this teams success around the talent of Flacco? Or was it just to compensate him for what we believed he could do for us. I only ask that because, say for instance we draft a QB, who given the opportunity shows better instinct than Flacco. Would our staff bench Flacco, or would they start him simply because he is taking up so much cap space. If the ultimate goal is for this team to be successful, then it should not matter that the person who is making the most money is the one on the field.

The main focus should be having the players on the field that put us in the best position to win, or who makes the most plays. Long story short, lets draft a backup QB, who has potential. I was just watching a tape about Brady back at Michigan and it made me think. Think how this team can get lucky and find a QB between the 4th and 6th round. A QB that can turn this franchise completely around. That may be more important right now than having us fans go through this torturous phase of waiting for Flacco to break out. He's very slow, and more energetic and competitive QB, along with a bigger more electrifying RB could be all this team needs to really be successful for years to come.

What you suggest is nearly an impossible task. For every Dak Prescott, there are many, Many 4th to 6th rd QBs that Never become starters in the NFL, let alone very effective ones like Prescott. There's him, Brady of course, and Perhaps Cousins that come to mind. But the list of ones that never became starters is so long that there's not space to list them. Heck, just look at how many First round QBs never panned out. Finding the next Prescott is a Wonderful thought, but it's, also, a Highly unrealistic one as well.

[Crusader]

Watch what happens to Dak & Cowboys when they have to start paying for all those first round offensive lineman and Dak's contract. It will be the same as Ravens, Seattle, Carolina......This "idea" of paying a "franchise' QB 120 million "going rate" is insane and the Ravens are learning the hard way. Tom Brady accounts for 8% while Joe 14% of the cap.You throw in part time Jimmy Smith"s 7% you got 22% on two average players.

[Adreme]

12 minutes ago, Crusader said:

Watch what happens to Dak & Cowboys when they have to start paying for all those first round offensive lineman and Dak's contract. It will be the same as Ravens, Seattle, Carolina......This "idea" of paying a "franchise' QB 120 million "going rate" is insane and the Ravens are learning the hard way. Tom Brady accounts for 8% while Joe 14% of the cap.You throw in part time Jimmy Smith"s 7% you got 22% on two average players.

Brady is the exception and not the rule though.  Due to outside circumstances he doesn't need to ask for as much but for every other team the market is what it is and the market for a franchise QB starts at 20M per and only goes up depending on how great he is.

[Crusader]

  29 minutes ago, Crusader said:

Watch what happens to Dak & Cowboys when they have to start paying for all those first round offensive lineman and Dak's contract. It will be the same as Ravens, Seattle, Carolina......This "idea" of paying a "franchise' QB 120 million "going rate" is insane and the Ravens are learning the hard way. Tom Brady accounts for 8% while Joe 14% of the cap.You throw in part time Jimmy Smith"s 7% you got 22% on two average players.

Brady is the exception and not the rule though.  Due to outside circumstances he doesn't need to ask for as much but for every other team the market is what it is and the market for a franchise QB starts at 20M per and only goes up depending on how great he is.

All I'm saying is somebody better start doing a better job with these contracts or it will be a decades before the Ravens become a contender again. If Joe wanted to walk he would not being doing any better than he is now. Remember the housing market? same concept over valued!.

[Adreme]

3 hours ago, Crusader said:

All I'm saying is somebody better start doing a better job with these contracts or it will be a decades before the Ravens become a contender again. If Joe wanted to walk he would not being doing any better than he is now. Remember the housing market? same concept over valued!.

Lets look at the 4 teams in the championship game.  Ben: 23.95M Matt Ryan:23.75M Aaron Rodgers: 19.25M and of course Tom Brady:13.76M

 

So it is not only possible to build a winner with a 20M+ QB on your roster but also if you do not have one of those QBs either on a rookie deal or on his 20M contract then you are NOT going to make it that far.  They are that valued because if you do not have a QB you do not have a prayer of really making the Super Bowl.  You can make the playoffs, you might even make the divisional round but come championship time you see the elite QBs.

[#Nevermore]

All the talk about what we lost after the super bowl season revolves around the obvious departures of Lewis, Reed and Boldin. Rarely do I ever hear anyone mention Matt Birk. That guy was a mainstay in the middle of our O line and was one of the best FA pickups we've ever had. Our run game has basically not been right since he left, with the disastrous promotion of Gino the following year and the up-and-down performances from Zuttah. 

I agree with you. Birk solidified the o-line. Also he made the protection calls. That skill has been sorely missed since he left. We need a smart center to call the protections, because for some reason, Flacco won't use his hard count or a dummy count to find the blitzes. He even looks surprised when he gets blitzed.