[News] Ravens Will Take Chances On Some Players With Character Issues, Just Not Ones With Domestic Violence

[Ravens8383]

Baltimore is a BLUE collar team but its turning into a hoity-toity club. There still defending their decisions made years ago. How long has Boldin been gone from the team and their still bringing it up in the State of the Ravens? The first thing they have do in Florida is realize they are they Blue collar team and not a high flying passing team because that is not Joe. This organization needs to learn to take criticism better and get out of this "Dog House" mentality.

I agree as long as Joe is the QB this team needs to be a run first offense. That's not a knock on Joe that is just the kind of QB I think he is. They also need a draft guys with checkered past every now and then if they are that good. Prime example is Marcus Peters. Would the Ravens have taken him at 26 if he would have fell?

[RUE]

With Mr. Newsomes' history of drafts & recruits I'd be alarmed...
2012: No #1, @ #2 was C. Upshaw (no impact), #3 B. Pierce (cost a 5th to move up for this guy).
2013: #1: Elam, #2 A. Brown @ 56...for 6 spots @ 62 it cost a 5th & 6th rnd picks to Seatl.////
2014: #2 T. Brooks
2015: Perriman, M. Williams, C. Davis... They don't exactly scare anyone out of the pro-bowl...
2016: #2 Correa & #3 Koufuse, one of them is half his prime...
These are the rnds that make teams better not worse. There are no more Ray Lewis's, T. Suggs to save the Oz... 5 years and 1 great player (Osemele). This is shameful...

[RUE]

2 hours ago, Ravens8383 said:

7 hours ago, Crusader said:

Baltimore is a BLUE collar team but its turning into a hoity-toity club. There still defending their decisions made years ago. How long has Boldin been gone from the team and their still bringing it up in the State of the Ravens? The first thing they have do in Florida is realize they are they Blue collar team and not a high flying passing team because that is not Joe. This organization needs to learn to take criticism better and get out of this "Dog House" mentality.

I agree as long as Joe is the QB this team needs to be a run first offense. That's not a knock on Joe that is just the kind of QB I think he is. They also need a draft guys with checkered past every now and then if they are that good. Prime example is Marcus Peters. Would the Ravens have taken him at 26 if he would have fell?

I hope that Joe finds another home. The great players have either left Blt or retired... He makes alot of idiot mistakes even for a QB that makes his living on dump offs. There is no great Defense to bail him out & He is no longer surrounded by great players.

 

2 hours ago, Ravens8383 said:

7 hours ago, Crusader said:

Baltimore is a BLUE collar team but its turning into a hoity-toity club. There still defending their decisions made years ago. How long has Boldin been gone from the team and their still bringing it up in the State of the Ravens? The first thing they have do in Florida is realize they are they Blue collar team and not a high flying passing team because that is not Joe. This organization needs to learn to take criticism better and get out of this "Dog House" mentality.

I agree as long as Joe is the QB this team needs to be a run first offense. That's not a knock on Joe that is just the kind of QB I think he is. They also need a draft guys with checkered past every now and then if they are that good. Prime example is Marcus Peters. Would the Ravens have taken him at 26 if he would have fell?

Focus on the drafts from 2012 to present, and the 1st 3 rnds of each.. Only 1 of all those deserved the pro-bowl (#2 Osemele). With attrition you must have premium talent in those rnds to continue. Without it, Joe Flacco is an overpaid QB. Sorta reminds me of a Bradshaw without Swann & Harris.

[RUE]

What exactly does it mean to be a "Blue Collar" team? Talent in the 1st 3 rnds are not invided?, help me out here.

[BallsoHard622]

We used to be feared. We use to be a physical team on both sides of the ball. I miss the nastiness the edge the old school football. We aren't them guys anymore because harbaugh wants nice guys. We need guys like pollard as a third safety to intimidate. We needed KO on our offensive line because he was a mauler an we dud the replace him an we payed for that. What happen to having samari role an chris Mcallister on the outside, two physical corners that could man up an tackle. We've been on the decline for years an it's been hard to watch.

Our offense should be smash mouth power football with play action passing. Flacco is no good if it's anything else.! I understand us not taking players with domestic violence issues but we aren't evaluating players the right way or something. I guess we'll see next year...

[BallsoHard622]

Very interesting of Oz to say all that stuff, because it seems to me that the Ravens have completely lost their identity of being the nasty physically dominating bully on the football field. For years now we have been drafting mostly nice guys with stellar on and off the field reputation and it directly correlates to the attitude we see on the field.

It has been slowly happening ever since Harbaugh came aboard, and yeah-yeah I know, he is not making the draft decisions alone, but it seems to me that before Harbaugh-era our team was way more willing to draft those old-school mean and aggressive players.

Now our roster is filled with "choir boys" like someone on this board very shrewdly said it. Literally no one is afraid to play against us anymore and it's especially a factor on the defense. And now, with Smith Sr. gone, we just might be the softest politest team in the NFL.

That is not the Ravens Way! I really really hope that Oz will walk his talk and they will get back to drafting players who strike fear into their opponents, players who bring the pain, players who you don't want to play twice against.

But as I've expressed myself before, I have serious doubts of that happening until Harbaugh has any say in the matter. Here's to hoping that Oz will end this nonsense come April.

EXACTLY!!!

[RUE]

I read alot but years since comments. My rights as a BLT fan is special to me, after all, like Modell, I also was a Cleveland Brown... I loved Oz as a player but have much doubt as a GM...

My greatest 2 letdowns were 1.) When Sipe threw the int against Oak, instead of kicking the FG in the ice game. 2.) The Byner fumble at the goal against Den. If those don't break your heart then nothing will.

[#Nevermore]

I don't necessarily think that good guys, "choir boys", or guys with no off the field issues are any better or worse football players than guys with baggage, DUIs or off the field issues just because of those issues. Reading the comments, I assume the correlation (specifically on defense) is that players who are better (whatever that means-more aggressive, harder hitters) are players who have had a checkered past. The correlation is not there for me. You can make a case for both sides. Looking at great defenses, Warren Sapp was a great player with off the field issues, but Derrick Brooks and John Lynch were great players with spotless records. If you look at the Seahawks, Earl Thomas, Bobby Wagner and Kam Chancellor are excellent, but so was Bruce Irvin.

It all comes down to the Ravens drafting better players. We need to start favoring quality over quantity. Also I think we need to draft players who are great at one thing and then develop them by letting them grow into doing more as their careers progress. I remember Dean Pees saying that he gave Elam and Brooks too much on their plate starting out. They had to learn both safety positions and the nickel position. They are doing the same thing with Kamalei Correa. The guy was a pass rusher in college, let him rush the pass and later on down the line he can move to inside linebacker.

[RUE]

When it comes to drafts, someone must be responsible for the call... Now who made the call in 2013 to draft Arthur Brown 2nd rnd, move up 6 spots to get him and toss in a 5th & 6th for love...There must have been some back scratching, cheek kissin, whatever...Someone listened to too much bull next door and got set up, Ha, Ha, Ha... Whom ever the joke was on, they need fired for that one.

[RavensDieHard21]

5 hours ago, TheConquerorWorm said:

Noah Spence is not that good....5.5 sacks this year - Za'Darius Smith had 6 his rookie year. Didn't look that good on his college game tape either - he would rush the passer and if he couldn't get there or the play went the other way, he just quit.

5.5>0 , he flashed all year and had a banged up shoulder at the end. Against Dallas he still put some nice speed moves on Tyron Smith. 

[Moderator 2]

46 minutes ago, RUE said:

May I ask, does a moderator have special privs? I've seen moderator comments that could be as demeaning as any other but they police themselves... I read alot but years since comments. My rights as a BLT fan is special to me, after all, like Modell, I also was a Cleveland Brown... I loved Oz as a player but have much doubt as a GM...

My greatest 2 letdowns were 1.) When Sipe threw the int against Oak, instead of kicking the FG in the ice game. 2.) The Byner fumble at the goal against Den. If those don't break your heart then nothing will.

Moderators are mostly chosen from here.  Mods have the ability to post as a member as long as they also follow the rules.  We work as a team, we do police ourselves, you can report their post as well as other members. We clean up posts with veiled profanity, separate fighting members, make sure Flock Members and Moderators stick to the rules handed down by the Ravens Org.   Moderating is a stressful, un-paid hobby and  we feel just as crappy when the team loses but it is fun.

If you feel you have an issue PM the mod or me since I am 'Lead Mod'.  All warnings and private messages are private-- we don't respond to call outs in a thread or let others know how many points someone else has.  I decided to post this because I'm sure others maybe wondering the same thing.

 

BTW I always felt horrible for Byner and followed him as a Redskin before here.

[RaRaRavens]

31 minutes ago, #Nevermore said:

I don't necessarily think that good guys, "choir boys", or guys with no off the field issues are any better or worse football players than guys with baggage, DUIs or off the field issues just because of those issues. Reading the comments, I assume the correlation (specifically on defense) is that players who are better (whatever that means-more aggressive, harder hitters) are players who have had a checkered past. The correlation is not there for me. You can make a case for both sides. Looking at great defenses, Warren Sapp was a great player with off the field issues, but Derrick Brooks and John Lynch were great players with spotless records. If you look at the Seahawks, Earl Thomas, Bobby Wagner and Kam Chancellor are excellent, but so was Bruce Irvin.

It all comes down to the Ravens drafting better players. We need to start favoring quality over quantity. Also I think we need to draft players who are great at one thing and then develop them by letting them grow into doing more as their careers progress. I remember Dean Pees saying that he gave Elam and Brooks too much on their plate starting out. They had to learn both safety positions and the nickel position. They are doing the same thing with Kamalei Correa. The guy was a pass rusher in college, let him rush the pass and later on down the line he can move to inside linebacker.

I think you misunderstood what most people, at least me, mean as opposed to the choir boys. I don't mean we should draft felons, drug dealers or wife beaters. But at the moment we have the politest players, ever. Juice for example can deliver some pretty mean hits from time to time. But after the play is over he goes to the guy he just ran over, offers him a hand, pulls him up, dusts him off. Good thing he doesn't apologise for trucking him. And yeah, it's just good sportsmanship and makes guys like Juice very likable, but I don't care for any of that if we are playing some of our arch-enemies like the Steelers or the Patriots. You can high five each other after the game all you like, but during the game I want to see our guys, at least on defense, be the bad guys. Someone from the Ravens of Old, might even have been Ray Lewis himself, said it the best: "From the first kickoff until the final whistle we are not friends we the guys opposite of us. They want to hit us and we want to hit them back even harder."  That's the mentality I want to see returned.

[#Nevermore]

2 hours ago, RaRaRavens said:

I think you misunderstood what most people, at least me, mean as opposed to the choir boys. I don't mean we should draft felons, drug dealers or wife beaters. But at the moment we have the politest players, ever. Juice for example can deliver some pretty mean hits from time to time. But after the play is over he goes to the guy he just ran over, offers him a hand, pulls him up, dusts him off. Good thing he doesn't apologise for trucking him. And yeah, it's just good sportsmanship and makes guys like Juice very likable, but I don't care for any of that if we are playing some of our arch-enemies like the Steelers or the Patriots. You can high five each other after the game all you like, but during the game I want to see our guys, at least on defense, be the bad guys. Someone from the Ravens of Old, might even have been Ray Lewis himself, said it the best: "From the first kickoff until the final whistle we are not friends we the guys opposite of us. They want to hit us and we want to hit them back even harder."  That's the mentality I want to see returned.

I understand. You want our guys to not shake hands and play a little past the whistle at times. That's good and all, but that doesn't mean anything. What difference does it make when you give up a fifteen yard pass and you help the guy up or not. We have to draft better players. That was my point. I don't care if they are choir boys or thugs. Guys are not intimidated by you just because you don't help them up or you talk smack. They are intimidated by your play. There are a lot of guys who talk, but at some point you have to back it up. 

[RaRaRavens]

30 minutes ago, #Nevermore said:

I understand. You want our guys to not shake hands and play a little past the whistle at times. That's good and all, but that doesn't mean anything. What difference does it make when you give up a fifteen yard pass and you help the guy up or not. We have to draft better players. That was my point. I don't care if they are choir boys or thugs. Guys are not intimidated by you just because you don't help them up or you talk smack. They are intimidated by your play. There are a lot of guys who talk, but at some point you have to back it up. 

Yes, that is true. #1 priority should be getting playmakers, dosen't matter if they are "good or bad guys". But it seems we have at times skipped on players with incredible talent because of some character flaws and made a safe choice with some "choir boys" whose ceiling talent-wise might not be as high. That's the main issue.

 

As to your intimidation factor, it does somewhat matter on defense. Usually the guys who won't help the other guy up after the play also hit harder because they don't care about being nice or polite. If they have the possibility to choose whether to lay a knock out punch with a hard shoulder hit or just wrap the guy up and pull him down, they will go with the big hit. Polite players typically just pull him down, cause they don't want to risk an injury to the other player and with the possibility to get a flag. That's my point at least on the defensive side. Yes, opponents are afraid of playmakers and on defense it often means delivering punishing tackles. Polite players with great sportsmanship tend not to hit as hard.

[phil3197]

  12 hours ago, phil3197 said:

if this was true, Noah Spence would be a Raven. Instead, we throw away our high second round pick to get a "good guy" in Correa...

Noah Spence is not that good....5.5 sacks this year - Za'Darius Smith had 6 his rookie year. Didn't look that good on his college game tape either - he would rush the passer and if he couldn't get there or the play went the other way, he just quit.

LOL you're comparing stats. Stats don't tell the story. I remember several of Z's sacks he wasn't even blocked. If you watch Noah Spence's tape you can see the explosiveness he comes off the edge with. Correa has ZERO explosiveness and pass rush ability, you can see it during the preseason. There is a reason he wasn't rushing off the edge during the season

[phil3197]

  12 hours ago, TheConquerorWorm said:

Noah Spence is not that good....5.5 sacks this year - Za'Darius Smith had 6 his rookie year. Didn't look that good on his college game tape either - he would rush the passer and if he couldn't get there or the play went the other way, he just quit.

5.5>0 , he flashed all year and had a banged up shoulder at the end. Against Dallas he still put some nice speed moves on Tyron Smith. 

I have seen this as well. He will be a consistent 10+ sack player.

[Rav'n Maniac]

I can understand and agree with the teams stand on DV. I also don't feel this team is just trying to bring in "choir boys". It makes no sense. No one here truly knows the amount of time that goes into evaluating players and if someone is passed by, it's because there was something seen in their play that turned the team off.

There are always going to be players that all 32 teams will pass on multiple times and will go on to becoming big stars in the league. It happens every year.

[The Mom Gene]

With Mr. Newsomes' history of drafts & recruits I'd be alarmed...
2012: No #1, @ #2 was C. Upshaw (no impact), #3 B. Pierce (cost a 5th to move up for this guy).
2013: #1: Elam, #2 A. Brown @ 56...for 6 spots @ 62 it cost a 5th & 6th rnd picks to Seatl.////
2014: #2 T. Brooks
2015: Perriman, M. Williams, C. Davis... They don't exactly scare anyone out of the pro-bowl...
2016: #2 Correa & #3 Koufuse, one of them is half his prime...
These are the rnds that make teams better not worse. There are no more Ray Lewis's, T. Suggs to save the Oz... 5 years and 1 great player (Osemele). This is shameful...

So guys like Mosley, Brandon Williams, Juice, Stanley and Lewis, Dixon; those guys aren't included in the draft history? There have been more hits than misses. The list goes on. I also believe that every team has the exact same issue. We just don't see it or pay much attention to it because we aren't following the team as closely. NO ONE can predict exactly how a guy is going to fare in the NFL. I hate to mention a certain QB that was drafted in the 6th round that is seen as "The greatest" ever... Others that are STARS in college just don't pan out in the NFL... guys like maybe Elam or Tebow. While it would be nice to make that special pick every year... you're correct to mention that it's very difficult to find a Ray Lewis, an Ed Reed, or a Jonathan Ogden out there every year.

[RUE]

Sorry Mom Gene, my post was about the most important "Premium" rounds Again its notable most great players represent those rounds. (On Any Team) By the way -
A once in a lifetime 6th rnd great QB is few & far between.. and.. Those that draft well, do well, This isn't about those teams, its about the Ravens....

I don't agree that its a crap shoot either.. They are well scouted, so much that we know what toothpaste they use...Its the mistakes that have been made:

Maybe their bad was pulling the wrong guy, or passing a potential A-Pro linebacker for a weaker WR.... the wrong position, bad timing, oh, we should have took "so-n-so", thought he would be there in the next.... There has been some bad mistakes made, And Moseley and Williams are the exception..Stanley, Lewis, Dixon, I dont believe have made the pro-bowl yet right..

[#Nevermore]

20 hours ago, RaRaRavens said:

Yes, that is true. #1 priority should be getting playmakers, dosen't matter if they are "good or bad guys". But it seems we have at times skipped on players with incredible talent because of some character flaws and made a safe choice with some "choir boys" whose ceiling talent-wise might not be as high. That's the main issue.

 

As to your intimidation factor, it does somewhat matter on defense. Usually the guys who won't help the other guy up after the play also hit harder because they don't care about being nice or polite. If they have the possibility to choose whether to lay a knock out punch with a hard shoulder hit or just wrap the guy up and pull him down, they will go with the big hit. Polite players typically just pull him down, cause they don't want to risk an injury to the other player and with the possibility to get a flag. That's my point at least on the defensive side. Yes, opponents are afraid of playmakers and on defense it often means delivering punishing tackles. Polite players with great sportsmanship tend not to hit as hard.

I don't know how you came to the conclusion that "Polite players with great sportsmanship tend not to hit hard." That is not the case. I have seen Thomas Davis lay wood on people and help them up and pat them on the helmet and he won Walter Payton Man of the year award. Charles Woodson won the Art Rooney Sportsmanship award, I guess he didn't hit hard either. I'm not buying that argument.

[RavenManiac#7]

I read every comment about this article before deciding to write my two cents worth. Everybody seems to be a bit upset, and sure about the fact that the team's decision to draft what the fans like to refer to as "choir boys" over more talented,but possibly players with troubled pasts has caused the team to suffer and have its quality diminish. And, they may well be correct. But, I still think that the biggest losers in all this has been Ray Rice and his then fiancee, and now wife. After all, this is a man of impeccable character who made One giant alcohol fueled mistake, and saw it result in having his entire football career taken away from him despite many players who had much worse, and frequent mistakes of the same variety cause them as little as 4 game suspensions, or even less in the past. Mr. Bisciotti's decision to banish Ray from the team was, I think, rather heartless and extremely harsh and unforgiving as well. As absolutely horrible that I think domestic abuse is, I believe that Ray Rice tried Very hard to take immediate ownership of his actions and did Everything he could possibly do to attempt to better himself as a man, father, and future husband. There is NO excuse for what he did, despite the fact that the video clearly showed that his fiancee first attacked Ray. Still NO excuse. PLEASE, let me make that perfectly clear. But, I will say that despite what Mr. Bisciotti chose to do to Ray Rice, nevertheless, I certainly hope that nobody ever treats him the same way by never allowing him to Ever be forgiven whenever he makes a serious mistake in his own life. Oh, sure, it probably won't be domestic abuse, but I assure you that Mr. Bisciotti will, undoubtedly, make his own share of mistakes in his own life. It just seems to me that Ray Rice should have been treated, and punished, the exact same way that every other player in the league has been treated, and punished, for the same horrible mistake. The truth is he was not, and I think that it was highly unfair to him and his entire family. I don't even like to think of a world where there can never be any forgiveness. Thank you, Jesus, for forgiving me of my sins. Yes, please hold me accountable, but please forgive me also.