Prospects that "Look and play like a Raven", and how it's killing our football team

[RavensDieHard21]

I get what you're saying and I do agree to an extent. 

An example would be the 15' draft. I'm not saying I am a scout or superior evaluator of talent or anything, but anyone with eyes that knows the game could tell that Marcus Peters, Shane Ray and Randy Gregory were top 10 talents. Each had character concerns, peters was the least concerning as he seemed to be a hot head, while Ray and Gregory were pot smokers.

Ozzie was sitting there at 26 with a chance to reload the roster that had just gave up 35 to NE, even though we had just lost Torrey and McPhee, we knew we needed a corner to help when Jimmy goes down. He stayed put and missed out on both players at 18 and 23. We "reloaded" with offensive talent  instead. I'm hoping that mantra does not get in the way of evaluating talent, unless we are dealing with a habitual dope smoker like Gregory. 

[GrimCoconut]

I can't believe some people still have reservations about Noah Spence vs Correa. There's no doubt in my mind Spence is a better prospect but Correa has huge potential and could be better but I still don't like us drafting Correa over Spence but whatever right. I think people sometimes try to outsmart themselves by picking that underrated guy with potential and they get hung up on that and miss out on the legit talent. Correa has a long way to go and I hope he takes that step but the only advantage Correa has on Spence is his athleticism because Spence has a higher football IQ and more moves than Correa which is saying something since Spence didn't have many moves to begin with here. 

Also what does it even mean anymore to "Play like a Raven"? I honestly have no idea

Edited January 6 by GrimCoconut

[January J]

Sadly we're still feeling the effects of the Ray Rice situation. After that occured we wanted to clean our act up a bit and we had to be a lot more careful with guys with character concerns. We also had to have a much shorter leash with current players getting in trouble ( a la Bernard Peirce). Sometimes it works out and sometimes it don't. We could draft a feirce pass rusher like Aldon smith and then he could get suspended indefinitely for the year and do us no good whatsoever while also giving us bad press and costing us $$. There's just a fine line you gotta walk- I think we need to loosen up a bit and stop walking on eggshells- start taking a few more chances as long as its not DV stuff or something blatantly obvious-  but I also have no problem with going with high character guys if they are ranked similarly to another player who is fierce but has red flags. The High character guy may take his off season more seriously and work harder to get in shape and study the play and rulebook while the guy with red flags is out partying with Johnny Manziel somewhere and shows up to camp overweight and outta shape.  Its hard to judge young guys character...some make mistakes just being young and learn their lesson and others  never learn and are just hardheaded. That's when you really have to do your homework- question highschool and college friends- teachers- teammates and coaches diligently.

Edited January 6 by January J

[January J]

3 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

Also what does it even mean anymore to "Play like a Raven"? I honestly have no idea

Just watch Ray Lewis , Reed, and sizzle play and that will tell you all you need to know. They set the standard and are basically the definition of "play like a raven"

Hard to come by guys like that anymore.

[RavensDieHard21]

31 minutes ago, January J said:

Just watch Ray Lewis , Reed, and sizzle play and that will tell you all you need to know. They set the standard and are basically the definition of "play like a raven"

Hard to come by guys like that anymore.

Playing like a Raven has slowly but surely changed due to Harbaughs identity as well as league standards--the rule book. Ray, Ed, Sizzle, Bart Scott, McAllister, Ngata, Pollard, KO, Yanda etc. it used to mean relentless smash mouth football. Play hard every down and hit anything that moves as hard as you can. 

The new mantra is blue collar, bring your lunch box to work kinda guys. The ones you know work hard, but don't hear much from and don't have any distractions🙄 Outside of Weddle and sizzle for a year, what leaders do we have. 

[GrimCoconut]

2 hours ago, January J said:

Just watch Ray Lewis , Reed, and sizzle play and that will tell you all you need to know. They set the standard and are basically the definition of "play like a raven"

Hard to come by guys like that anymore.

That's what it used to be but I don't think that's us anymore

[Adreme]

18 hours ago, rmw10 said:

Just as a reference...

“We have something here called a ‘Red Star.’ Every scout chooses one player,” Harbaugh said. “Coaches sometimes get a chance to choose. A player they feel really strongly about, the kind of person they are, character-wise, determination, motivation, those guys generally move up a round or so.”

http://coachingsearch.com/article?a=John-Harbaugh-describes-a-Red-Star-prospect-on-the-Ravens-draft-board

The key words in that quote to me were determination and motivation.  If someone has those qualities I would move them up on my board as well because great players are often the ones who simply want it more than the other guy so that's a quality you desperatelyou want.

[rmw10]

38 minutes ago, Adreme said:

The key words in that quote to me were determination and motivation.  If someone has those qualities I would move them up on my board as well because great players are often the ones who simply want it more than the other guy so that's a quality you desperatelyou want.

I like those guys, and there's nothing wrong with having that type of view.  My point mainly is that sometimes guys with determination and motivation don't necessarily make them the best player.  Sometimes you have to rely on athleticism and overall talent, and deal with some of the hiccups that may come with that.  I'm just proposing having more of a balance.  It doesn't seem too terribly difficult to pick out the guys in recent drafts who fit the red star definition, and quite a few of them just haven't turned out that well.

Regardless, scouting and the draft in general are a crapshoot.  I do feel that sometimes a little bit too much emphasis is placed on character, though.

[GrimCoconut]

2 hours ago, rmw10 said:

I like those guys, and there's nothing wrong with having that type of view.  My point mainly is that sometimes guys with determination and motivation don't necessarily make them the best player.  Sometimes you have to rely on athleticism and overall talent, and deal with some of the hiccups that may come with that.  I'm just proposing having more of a balance.  It doesn't seem too terribly difficult to pick out the guys in recent drafts who fit the red star definition, and quite a few of them just haven't turned out that well.

Regardless, scouting and the draft in general are a crapshoot.  I do feel that sometimes a little bit too much emphasis is placed on character, though.

I have been thinking about the whole character thing and our draft picks and I want to suggest something I don't think I've yet heard but one I think makes sense. People are quick to say this focus on character is a Harbaugh thing and that may very well be true but after thinking on it some I believe it may be more of a Bisciotti thing. The owner obviously wants to protect his team's image after the Ray Rice debacle and if you look at Harbaugh's comments like that one late hit out of bounds Jernigan delivered a year or two ago and Harbaugh said I wouldn't change that. I feel like if Harbaugh was petitioning for choir boys he'd have made that clear then and he is a master of Coach Speak 101 but looking at everything I think this good guy thing is a Steve Bisciotti deal more than anything else

[allblackraven]

12 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

I have been thinking about the whole character thing and our draft picks and I want to suggest something I don't think I've yet heard but one I think makes sense. People are quick to say this focus on character is a Harbaugh thing and that may very well be true but after thinking on it some I believe it may be more of a Bisciotti thing. The owner obviously wants to protect his team's image after the Ray Rice debacle and if you look at Harbaugh's comments like that one late hit out of bounds Jernigan delivered a year or two ago and Harbaugh said I wouldn't change that. I feel like if Harbaugh was petitioning for choir boys he'd have made that clear then and he is a master of Coach Speak 101 but looking at everything I think this good guy thing is a Steve Bisciotti deal more than anything else

Bisciotti-Harbaugh collusion I reckon.

[GrimCoconut]

1 minute ago, allblackraven said:

Bisciotti-Harbaugh collusion I reckon.

lol I know right? Also Steve says he defers to Ozzie and co but he also says he's having more and more input in the draft. 

[allblackraven]

45 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

lol I know right? Also Steve says he defers to Ozzie and co but he also says he's having more and more input in the draft. 

Yep, I don't buy for a second any owner's claims that he leaves football stuff to football guys and I'm pretty sure in our case it doesn't go "I want pass rusher/CB/WR..." - more like "Remember Ray Rice? I want pass rusher/CB/WR but nice and mellow guy". Add to that stickers (I can't let go of those) and there's collusion.

[January J]

On 1/6/2017 at 11:16 AM, RavensDieHard21 said:

Playing like a Raven has slowly but surely changed due to Harbaughs identity as well as league standards--the rule book. Ray, Ed, Sizzle, Bart Scott, McAllister, Ngata, Pollard, KO, Yanda etc. it used to mean relentless smash mouth football. Play hard every down and hit anything that moves as hard as you can. 

The new mantra is blue collar, bring your lunch box to work kinda guys. The ones you know work hard, but don't hear much from and don't have any distractions🙄 Outside of Weddle and sizzle for a year, what leaders do we have. 

I think Orr can be that guy. Mosley as well. They're not as vocal but they lead by example. That rah rah guy might not be on the team yet- but suggs can play that role for atleast another year.

[RavensDieHard21]

9 hours ago, January J said:

I think Orr can be that guy. Mosley as well. They're not as vocal but they lead by example. That rah rah guy might not be on the team yet- but suggs can play that role for atleast another year.

Orr and Mosley played exceptional and I actually think that is our solid unit. The team will admire their play and try to play as hard as them. But if you are ever playing on a team, there is nothing more that gets you fired up then a rah rah leader that commands the attention of the team. It makes players want to run through walls and I'm hoping we find that guy amor he emerges from our roster. 

[#Nevermore]

34 minutes ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

Orr and Mosley played exceptional and I actually think that is our solid unit. The team will admire their play and try to play as hard as them. But if you are ever playing on a team, there is nothing more that gets you fired up then a rah rah leader that commands the attention of the team. It makes players want to run through walls and I'm hoping we find that guy amor he emerges from our roster. 

I agree. You need that rah, rah guy at times and it is missing from this unit. Also he can be a sounding board for the coach and direction of the team. Guys don't always want to hear the "go get 'em" speech from the coach, sometimes you need to hear it from the guy on the field across from you. Guys like that raise the level of play of the entire team, help gets the crowd involved, etc. We will find that guy in this draft.

[kjbmore]

On 1/6/2017 at 4:36 PM, GrimCoconut said:

I have been thinking about the whole character thing and our draft picks and I want to suggest something I don't think I've yet heard but one I think makes sense. People are quick to say this focus on character is a Harbaugh thing and that may very well be true but after thinking on it some I believe it may be more of a Bisciotti thing. The owner obviously wants to protect his team's image after the Ray Rice debacle and if you look at Harbaugh's comments like that one late hit out of bounds Jernigan delivered a year or two ago and Harbaugh said I wouldn't change that. I feel like if Harbaugh was petitioning for choir boys he'd have made that clear then and he is a master of Coach Speak 101 but looking at everything I think this good guy thing is a Steve Bisciotti deal more than anything else

may very well be, because at the end of the day who has more to lose if we have a repeat of ray rice - the club image, public perception hence biscotti and what his investment is worth or harbaugh who might bring a few bad boys in but gets results

 

[RavensDieHard21]

7 hours ago, #Nevermore said:

I agree. You need that rah, rah guy at times and it is missing from this unit. Also he can be a sounding board for the coach and direction of the team. Guys don't always want to hear the "go get 'em" speech from the coach, sometimes you need to hear it from the guy on the field across from you. Guys like that raise the level of play of the entire team, help gets the crowd involved, etc. We will find that guy in this draft.

We were so pampered for so long that it is hard coping now. We had Ray and Ed commanding the defense while we also had other in your face players that got the team and crowd even more riled up like Pollard, Scott and Q. 

Suggs is a leader, but between age and injuries he is slowing down. If love a young in your face pass rusher that could lead and allow Suggs to be a third down pass rush specialist to keep him fresh all year.