[News] 'Everything On The Table' With Potential Salary-Cap Casualties

[billiejean]

  35 minutes ago, eze17 said:

So...Newton, Stafford and Ryan: no championships. Rodgers & Wilson have same number of rings as Flacco. Give Big Ben his due, and Brady is being considered as one of the best QB's that has ever played in the NFL...

Can't carry A team? Did you even watch our Super Bowl year? 11 TD's with NO INT? Come on, man...

I still say Ben is incredibly overrated and has had great talent, either offensive or defensive, around him his whole career. Until last year he never made the playoffs without a top 5 defense.

I am going to have to disagree with you there. Have you ever watched the guy play? Its ridiculous to think his success is based on the defense. Hes a lock for the HOF. He has been behind some pretty awful offensive lines. And they didn't always have Bell. For a while It was a mix of journeyman like Dwyer, Redman, Mendenhall, Moore. They do always seem to have a pretty a good receiver. I think your Ravens fandom has clouded your mind. I don't think you would be able to find a lot of people that would agree with that statement, even here in the Ravens forum.

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, Tdot.to.Bmore said:

This is all i was trying to say and then some people catch feelings on this thread and go on a rant. I just used saving $5M as an example lol.

rmcjacket23 for GM 2018 folks!!!

Yeah, great way to get fired as a GM your first year on the job... go to your franchise player in year 2 of his deal and ask for a paycut... while having absolutely no leverage to do so.

Absolutely brilliant.

And this, ladies and gentleman, is why fans aren't GMs and will never be qualified to be GMs.

[Moderator 3]

1 hour ago, OUravensfan said:

I still say Ben is incredibly overrated and has had great talent, either offensive or defensive, around him his whole career. Until last year he never made the playoffs without a top 5 defense.

AND since the start of the 2011 season has exactly ONE playoff win (thanks to the Bengals having an epic meltdown).  

[The Greek]

  37 minutes ago, eze17 said:

My original post was that we simply need to look for a decent back up QB...Flacco is certainly a pretty durable QB, but he has had a major injury. I wouldn't consider a 4th rounder, or as I said the comp pick for KO, A wasted pick to obtain A decent quality back up QB. Mallet, in my opinion, is not the answer. And I suspect that there will be teams willing to over pay him. Hopefully not the Raven's.

I guess I'm not opposed to it, but I will point out that there are some decent backup QBs in this league, and a lot of them were 1st, 2nd or even 3rd round picks, or veterans that have been around for awhile.

I think its a bit presumptuous to draft a 4th rounder and just assume he's capable of being a backup QB right away. There's teams drafting 1st and 2nd rounders who can't even make the active roster on gameday on teams with far worse QB situations. That tells you how bad a lot of the QBs coming out of the draft are these days.

Frankly, if we used a 4th rounder on a QB, I'd suspect he'd spend a year or two as the 3rd QB (basically a PS player), meaning he's pretty useless. No way am I taking a 4th rounder and making him the backup in year 1.

Plus, as I said earlier, I'm not really interested in spending a 4th rounder on a guy that, ideally, will never play a snap for you. 6th or 7th rounder, sure, because those guys rarely plays snaps for us anyway. But we get starters and quality players out of 4th round picks all the time.

I'd rather just sign a veteran backup if that's the route we are going. I'd trust Mallett over a 4th rounder, and retaining Mallett won't be that difficult.

i agree with your post but i think there will be a lot of interest in mallett and there are teams with more salary cap space than we have. would be nice to keep him but he could probably start for the browns and maybe the niners if kap leaves

[Ravenous_Ravens]

Solution is simple from my perspective.

A) If Dummervil is still playing at an acceptable level (according to coaches, etc) then re-structure his contract for a few more years and low his cap hit next year. ensure it is a result driven contract so he maintains motivation.

B) Zuttah IMHO while still good, it nearing that tipping point. I let him walk and draft a replacement. That leaves them with a starter and backup between drafted C and Urschel (having playing experience). Depths is always good, especially at C.

C) Arrington & Lewis status depends on how many secondary players Ozzie WILL draft. My gut says he does pull the trigger and fill the back end with much needed new talent (3-4 players CB/S) and these guys become cap casualties.

Just B and C could save some significant cap space.

Also Joe's contract is not all guaranteed. Not sure why everyone likes to claim it is handicapping them when clearly, his visible play would suggest he is not making 100% of his contract. Yes it impacts the cap but handicap it? Look at this roster and up and down and prove how they don't have a lot of good value talent despite Joe's contract.

[rmcjacket23]

2 minutes ago, Ravenous_Ravens said:

Solution is simple from my perspective.

A) If Dummervil is still playing at an acceptable level (according to coaches, etc) then re-structure his contract for a few more years and low his cap hit next year. ensure it is a result driven contract so he maintains motivation.

Zuttah IMHO while still good, it nearing that tipping point. I let him walk and draft a replacement. That leaves them with a starter and backup between drafted C and Urschel (having playing experience). Depths is always good, especially at C.

C) Arrington & Lewis status depends on how many secondary players Ozzie WILL draft. My gut says he does pull the trigger and fill the back end with much needed new talent (3-4 players CB/S) and these guys become cap casualties.

Just B and C could save some significant cap space.

Also Joe's contract is not all guaranteed. Not sure why everyone likes to claim it is handicapping them when clearly, his visible play would suggest he is not making 100% of his contract. Yes it impacts the cap but handicap it? Look at this roster and up and down and prove how they don't have a lot of good value talent despite Joe's contract.

Correct, Joe's contract is not all guaranteed. But the guaranteed portion of it keeps him locked on the roster for the next two seasons at least, and likely three.

[ravensfan1300]

I think they are all gone, Maybe not Zuttah. Dumervil sounds like he wants out anyway

[eze17]

  31 minutes ago, eze17 said:

My original post was that we simply need to look for a decent back up QB...Flacco is certainly a pretty durable QB, but he has had a major injury. I wouldn't consider a 4th rounder, or as I said the comp pick for KO, A wasted pick to obtain A decent quality back up QB. Mallet, in my opinion, is not the answer. And I suspect that there will be teams willing to over pay him. Hopefully not the Raven's.

I guess I'm not opposed to it, but I will point out that there are some decent backup QBs in this league, and a lot of them were 1st, 2nd or even 3rd round picks, or veterans that have been around for awhile.

I think its a bit presumptuous to draft a 4th rounder and just assume he's capable of being a backup QB right away. There's teams drafting 1st and 2nd rounders who can't even make the active roster on gameday on teams with far worse QB situations. That tells you how bad a lot of the QBs coming out of the draft are these days.

Frankly, if we used a 4th rounder on a QB, I'd suspect he'd spend a year or two as the 3rd QB (basically a PS player), meaning he's pretty useless. No way am I taking a 4th rounder and making him the backup in year 1.

Plus, as I said earlier, I'm not really interested in spending a 4th rounder on a guy that, ideally, will never play a snap for you. 6th or 7th rounder, sure, because those guys rarely plays snaps for us anyway. But we get starters and quality players out of 4th round picks all the time.

I'd rather just sign a veteran backup if that's the route we are going. I'd trust Mallett over a 4th rounder, and retaining Mallett won't be that difficult.

Well, good argument. I would say that if the QB is there, you take him. The original poster I was responding to suggested drafting Kiser, who does look to be a raw, but decent prospect. I don't know if I'd trust him as our back up QB, or use A 4th rounder on him (hard to tell just looking at game footage, you'd need to do an overall scouting report & have coaches personally meet him, as with any potential QB if your smart), however I DO think that drafting A rookie QB that the team is willing to develop would be A good idea. And I wouldn't consider an upper mid round pick being excesive if you think the guy can eventually be a quality player.

Unsure about retaining Mallet...A lot of teams looking for QB help. Not that he will get crazy money, but is he worth what is the market value? He is capable, but if the Raven's see someone worth drafting, I could see them going the inexperienced rookie QB route.

[good_n_purple]

I think they are all gone, Maybe not Zuttah. Dumervil sounds like he wants out anyway

Zuttah is gone.

[rmcjacket23]

11 minutes ago, eze17 said:

Well, good argument. I would say that if the QB is there, you take him. The original poster I was responding to suggested drafting Kiser, who does look to be a raw, but decent prospect. I don't know if I'd trust him as our back up QB, or use A 4th rounder on him (hard to tell just looking at game footage, you'd need to do an overall scouting report & have coaches personally meet him, as with any potential QB if your smart), however I DO think that drafting A rookie QB that the team is willing to develop would be A good idea. And I wouldn't consider an upper mid round pick being excesive if you think the guy can eventually be a quality player.

Unsure about retaining Mallet...A lot of teams looking for QB help. Not that he will get crazy money, but is he worth what is the market value? He is capable, but if the Raven's see someone worth drafting, I could see them going the inexperienced rookie QB route.

1. Based on what I read about Kiser, I think he goes long before round 4. I think he's at least a day 2 player, maybe even a 1st rounder. Not saying that's gospel, just based on what I've read. A lot of time between now and the draft, so who really knows at this point.

2. There's actually a decent (not good) FA market developing for QBs though. You've got guys like Cutler and Romo potentially being available, Garrapolo figures to get plenty of trade interest, and I've heard multiple "analysts" say that a guy like Mike Glennon will be in high demand as well. So basically, I don't think Mallett's market will be anything really.

I think he'll land a backup job with whatever team wants to pay him the most. Here, somewhere else, not really sure.

Edited January 5 by rmcjacket23

[jsarrocohome@yahoo.com]

  54 minutes ago, ravensfan1300 said:

I think they are all gone, Maybe not Zuttah. Dumervil sounds like he wants out anyway

Zuttah is gone.

and he should be

[omar586]

when the cuts starts

[rmcjacket23]

when the cuts starts

Probably late February, early March.

[RavenManiac#7]

I'm no expert on cap related issues. That's for sure. I know, in general, that things like contract language, lengths of contracts, "dead" money rules, and when cuts are made always play a big part in whether or not it is wise to cut players. But, I will say this, very few of our players, as far as performance goes, should be considered as "untouchables" in regards to being cut candidates. Again, I'm only talking about performance here. I looked at the picture in this article and found myself wondering when it was taken, because none of the three looked to be very happy. It sure doesn't look like they were having fun.

[Halshayeji]

3 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

They won't win anything if they stop handing out long term deals to everybody.

Ngata's deal was plenty good, Flacco's deal is standard for what QBs in the NFL get, and Jimmy Smith is worth every penny just by NOT being on the field.

Haven't you guys figured out just how significantly worse our defense becomes when he's not on the field?

Great point. It's not jimmys salary that's killing us it's when he's out and the dropoff in talent is significant.

[NNITRED]

To me Dumervil doesn't necessarily sound like he wants out. He sounds like a guy that sees the writing on the wall or at the very least accepts salary cap realities. His contract , age, and durability are all big factors. $6million in cap space is hard to pass up.
Kendrick Lewis is the easiest pick of the lot.

[Glen1024]

First it's not a paycut, Joe will still be paid....QBs don't take paycuts they just convert salary to bonus so the team can spread the cap hit....if I was joe and they asked I would do it

[ravensnj]

Zuttah. Arrington and Lewis can be dismissed. Doom needs to be asked to restructure his deal. He has plenty left in his tank, and we don't need another failure draft pick.

[TheConquerorWorm]

I'm no expert on cap related issues. That's for sure. I know, in general, that things like contract language, lengths of contracts, "dead" money rules, and when cuts are made always play a big part in whether or not it is wise to cut players. But, I will say this, very few of our players, as far as performance goes, should be considered as "untouchables" in regards to being cut candidates. Again, I'm only talking about performance here. I looked at the picture in this article and found myself wondering when it was taken, because none of the three looked to be very happy. It sure doesn't look like they were having fun.

While those do play a big part, the other part of the equation is what kinda depth do you have at the position. It's easy to look at Doom and say we will save $6 million. And yes, we have Judon/Z'Darius that can take his place (even though the jury is still out on if they will ever be on Doom's level). But the real question is, what do you do when Judon and/or Suggs gets hurt? $6 million is not enough to bring on a quality pass rusher in FA. That means you're drafting someone. So, with Doom gone, Judon or Suggs hurt, you're relying on a rookie to save your season (no pass rush = no play-offs). Suddenly, that $6 million doesn't look so good. Look at Boldin. At the time, we had an emerging #1 in Torrey, a stud pass catching TE in Pitta, so paying Boldin a bloated contract was not cap friendly, ergo the pay cut refusal and the trade. That one backfired. We all know that quality pass rushers are one of the hardest things to get in the NFL. Doom, while not exactly young and not exactly free from injury is still a pretty darn good pass rusher in spurts. That's useful.

[metalraven]

4 hours ago, eze17 said:

Come on, you know that stat's were implied, or you wouldn't have brought them up...I'll take a QB who can win the big game over a fantasy stud ten times out of ten. It's that simple. Nothing to show? Well, personally I love to watch football, so as long as the Raven's are putting out a competitive team I'm all in. Yeah, the last two seasons have been disappointing. No denial there. But in the long haul, we've had great football. And I'm confidant we will have continued good fortune. Drinking the purple Kool-Aid? Yeah, to A degree. I certainly don't agree with everything that the FO & coaching staff do, nor deny that some players under perform. But to say that "well, Joe sucks" is A cop out, and ignoring the past. Flacco still has some good football in him...Just keep the faith.

Stats were not implied. Not in the least bit. (Now I'm comforted to know that you cannot read minds) And you, sir, are the one that keeps bringing it up. And even if I did bring up stats, you can't just completely ignore them anyways. To a degree, they are a reflection of the player. Of course there are many variables; but generally speaking, if your stats are consistently bad, then it stands to reason that the player is not all the good. In fact, a QBs stats can have a direct impact on the teams wins and losses. For example, look at Joe's stats for 2013, 2015 and 2016 - all mediocre. And guess what? The team was mediocre too. Now look at 2014 - quite possibly Joe's best statistical season - what do you know - the team as a whole was successful. You see the correlation between the team's performance and Joe's stats? Remember the words of SSS: "We go as [Flacco] goes." Can't argue with that.

To your point regarding the FO - Not once did I question them, nor did I mention them. I simply pointed out Joe's massive contract, and rhetorically asked: "What do we have to show for it?" One playoff appearance since, and a losing record over that span. That's what we have to show for it.

And I hope Joe has some good football in him. Trust me, I want him to be awesome. But as of late, he most certainly has not been playing good football. 20 TDs and 15 picks won't win you much ball games. (Like those stats?)

[whobilly]

Doom..."I'm just trying to get my body back where it needs to be". Translated, at 6 Mill......RELEASED.

[whobilly]

Zuttah. Arrington and Lewis can be dismissed. Doom needs to be asked to restructure his deal. He has plenty left in his tank, and we don't need another failure draft pick.

He has plenty left in his gas tank?

[TheConquerorWorm]

Surprised that Mike Wallace ($5.75 million savings), Ben Watson ($3 million) & Shareece Wright ($ 2.6 million) were not mentioned.

Left up to me, I cut

Wallace
Watson
Wright
Zuttah
Arrington
Dumerville
Lewis

Take that $23 million in cap space and resign BWill ($6-7 million) & Wagner ($5-6 million) and then sign a quality FA WR that can run routes and catch the ball like Garcon or Britt ($7-$8 million).

Restructure Pitta & Webb and sign CB Prince Akumara ($8 million)

Use your 1st Round pick on one of the top CB or DE Solomon Davis or WR Corey Davis.

Use your 2nd Round Pick on whichever top CB falls in the 2nd Round - King/Lewis/White or WR JuJu.

Use your 3rd Round on S Budda Baker or S Marcus Williams.

Rest of the picks use to upgrade C, RB, G, future QB.

[SorryNotSorry]

Mike Wallace played pretty good this season. Its not his fault the idiot OC can't see that crossing routes burned defenses all season, instead he wants 7 step drop backs off of play action when we hardly ever run the ball in the first place. Smh

[SorryNotSorry]

And Ladarius Webb can go to. I don't care what his "cap hit" is.

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, Glen1024 said:

First it's not a paycut, Joe will still be paid....QBs don't take paycuts they just convert salary to bonus so the team can spread the cap hit....if I was joe and they asked I would do it

Bad idea, particularly when its only the 2nd year of his deal. When that is done, its taking non-guaranteed money and guaranteeing it. 

You're basically just kicking the can down the street at that point. Reducing cap hits now for larger cap hits later. Bad combination.

His cap number isn't prohibitive for 2017, and nobody should have any expectations of it being different.

[rmcjacket23]

27 minutes ago, TheConquerorWorm said:

Surprised that Mike Wallace ($5.75 million savings), Ben Watson ($3 million) & Shareece Wright ($ 2.6 million) were not mentioned.

Left up to me, I cut

Wallace
Watson
Wright
Zuttah
Arrington
Dumerville
Lewis

Take that $23 million in cap space and resign BWill ($6-7 million) & Wagner ($5-6 million) and then sign a quality FA WR that can run routes and catch the ball like Garcon or Britt ($7-$8 million).

Restructure Pitta & Webb and sign CB Prince Akumara ($8 million)

Use your 1st Round pick on one of the top CB or DE Solomon Davis or WR Corey Davis.

Use your 2nd Round Pick on whichever top CB falls in the 2nd Round - King/Lewis/White or WR JuJu.

Use your 3rd Round on S Budda Baker or S Marcus Williams.

Rest of the picks use to upgrade C, RB, G, future QB.
 

Your math is a bit off. You wouldn't be able to sign all those players AND still have money left over to sign your draft picks.

Also not very easy to restructure Pitta's deal, given we just did that and his number will be even higher with more guarantees next season, since he achieved the incentives we asked him to take a paycut for.

Not to mention that you likely wouldn't be able to retain Williams or Wagner at those prices. Would need to be higher. Wagner's range is close to that, but I don't think you'll sign Williams for $6-7M a year.

I find this sort of ironic, since I believe you were the guy saying that he was going to sign for like Malik Jackson money at one point, which of course is way off also.

Edited January 6 by rmcjacket23

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, TheConquerorWorm said:

While those do play a big part, the other part of the equation is what kinda depth do you have at the position. It's easy to look at Doom and say we will save $6 million. And yes, we have Judon/Z'Darius that can take his place (even though the jury is still out on if they will ever be on Doom's level). But the real question is, what do you do when Judon and/or Suggs gets hurt? $6 million is not enough to bring on a quality pass rusher in FA. That means you're drafting someone. So, with Doom gone, Judon or Suggs hurt, you're relying on a rookie to save your season (no pass rush = no play-offs). Suddenly, that $6 million doesn't look so good. Look at Boldin. At the time, we had an emerging #1 in Torrey, a stud pass catching TE in Pitta, so paying Boldin a bloated contract was not cap friendly, ergo the pay cut refusal and the trade. That one backfired. We all know that quality pass rushers are one of the hardest things to get in the NFL. Doom, while not exactly young and not exactly free from injury is still a pretty darn good pass rusher in spurts. That's useful.

And when Doom gets hurt (which he did) or doesn't come back from an Achilles tear well (which he hasn't so far), you're in the exact same boat, except with $6M in cap space less.

And $4-5M may be enough to get a replacement level player with less injury concerns, though I agree you're going to the draft for that. 

Any way you look at it, you're banking on young players. Even if Doom is back, if he's your best pass rusher and is playing anything more than a complimentary role, you're got big problems regardless. Judon will need to stop up, Correa will need to step up, Smith will need to step up, and anybody we draft will need to step up. Can't keep depending on aging veterans to bail us out. 

[rmcjacket23]

2 hours ago, RavenManiac#7 said:

I'm no expert on cap related issues. That's for sure. I know, in general, that things like contract language, lengths of contracts, "dead" money rules, and when cuts are made always play a big part in whether or not it is wise to cut players. But, I will say this, very few of our players, as far as performance goes, should be considered as "untouchables" in regards to being cut candidates. Again, I'm only talking about performance here. I looked at the picture in this article and found myself wondering when it was taken, because none of the three looked to be very happy. It sure doesn't look like they were having fun.

Ignoring the guys on rookie contracts who are playing for cheaply and aren't going anywhere (your Mosley's, Jernigans, Stanley types), below are the guys who are "untouchable". Their contracts lock them into roster spots next season, regardless of production.

Flacco, Jimmy, Yanda, Suggs and Weddle

Also include Koch and Tucker, but they're obvious names as well

Other than that, in theory, literally anybody else could be cut (excluding rookie contracts of good players). Your good rookies, those five veterans, and your two main ST guys. They're the only one's that are "safe" from a contract standpoint.

[purpledown]

we can live with cutting those players. Flacco as usual is eating up most of the room, shame to see a good player like Brandon Williams go elsewhere.