[News] Late For Work 1/4: Four Important Notes, Opinions And Questions About Standing Pat At Coordinator

[Maryland]

Mike McCoy falls under the "too good to hire" category. If McCoy does too well, he's a HC again, possibly even with the Ravens, which obviously threatens Harbaugh's job security. Can't hire him. I don't think Rick Dennison falls into that category, but he's not technically available anyway, at least not until the Broncos' next HC makes a decision on his coordinators.

[jsarrocohome@yahoo.com]

  1 hour ago, Tdot.to.Bmore said:

Much respect to Harbaugh for sticking to his guns and not listening to all the internet GMs. At the end of the day like the article states even if he were to change coordinators he knew it was a make or break year. Why not stick to someone you know? Why not stick to something that has proven to work in the later half of the year? If it wasnt for our defense who gave up leads and big plays to the giants, Jets, Patriots and Steelers, then this season would have been totally different. If it wasnt for the Oline who couldnt give Joe time or make holes for the running back then the season would have been different.

Alot of ppl are blaming the OC for joes check downs. But in reality thats on Joe himself. He doesnt move in the pocket or roll out of the pocket. Its frustrating to watch some of these QBs in the league make plays with their feet and then you watch joe get flustered and throw for a 2 yeard check down. If the Oline gives Joe time this coming season we will see a drastic change. The weapons are there, all we need is for Joe to have time so our weapons have time to get separation.

AND PLEASE RUN TEH DAMN BALL!!!

I agree with you 100%. So many people forget the success weve had compared to most other teams. there are a lot of singular plays on both offense and defense that could have won more games and made us 11 and 5 this year. Some of these fans on here are so quick to want change when the offense has been bogged down with changing OC's.

So quick to change 3 out of 4 years no playoffs the offense and defense making the same mistakes over these last 4 years 1 division title In 9 Years so yes I would like change marty and pees have a track record and its not very good when you accept average you become average next year will be looking for a new Headcoach

[bioLarzen]

"Ultimately, Harbaugh’s decision to retain Mornhinweg reflects a belief that the Ravens need more talent rather than better coaching."

In a season where we'll gonna be rather tight against the cap... meaning we'll be likely to come out of the off season weaker - or at least not stronger... - than we enetered it...

It's like saying you want a better car when you know you won't be able to afford it...

[jsarrocohome@yahoo.com]

Some things to consider... when trying to put a winner on the field. Joe has a salary cap hit of 24.55 M in 2017. If Joe were to be cut after June 1st it would create 47.3 M in dead money (per the Sunpapers). Joe has the highest salary of any NFL QB when averaged over the life of his contract. (per the Cheat sheet) Joe finished the year with the 24th QBR. (per the Sunpapers) Clearly we are stuck with Joe for another 3 years... but he has played poorly for the most part since he signed his mega-contract. The question for our OC and HC is will it be possible to motivate Joe to play up to his contract and anywhere close to it?

If we had a smarter OC and head coach they could do a lot more to make joe successful for starters run the damn ball best down to throw is 1st down throw the ball deep to back off coverage run different plays from same formation we do none

[griffrb]

I'm curious, when did Harbs have time to research coordinators? The season ended on Sunday. Must have been after the Steelers loss. Something isn't right with that response IMO. I initially thought Marty Ball would be a good fit, but when you look at his track record over time as an OC, what we got was who he is. Andy Reid ran the Eagles offense. Rick Dennison would have been a very interesting consideration. Would he consider a return as QB? Unlikely, unless he's not kept in Denver in some capacity. Oh well. Still a fan, but Harbs is a broken record, and I won't be paying any attention to them or the beat writers this off-season. Once the State of Ravens concludes..........

[Crusader]

"Harbaugh reportedly looked around, but was there really a better option?"

Ahhh, please... Back there in 2008 when Billick was fired, did ANYBODY think about Harbaugh as a good replacement before his name first came up officially? He was the ST coach of the Eagles - how many ST coaches do people know?

There are good enough guys around - they're just have to be found. Just like Harbaugh was found in 2008.

They love to use fear & the unknown as an excuse.

[Crusader]

There is only one person who can save Harbaugh, Ozzie. He Better have a Great Draft and be Top Heavy in Talent. Rounds 1 thru 3 better be Home runs.

John better hope injury monster does not show up at his door again.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

1) You're darn right. By throwing his gauntlet down for Marty and Dean, he's put his own job on the line. So yeah, maybe feeling some heat on themselves to produce something other than a steaming Waste products on the field might I dunno..motivate them to get after their players and I dunno...hold them accountable for when they screw up things.

2) The only reason why you stick with Marty is consistency. To me, that's not a good enough reason. Marty doesn't exactly have an overwhelming track record. Unless he was tasked with simply running Trestman's offense all year for the sake of keeping the players up to speed with the playbook, why would you expect him to do anything differently than what he already showed you? Harbaugh and Flacco both said they needed to run more...yet they didn't. Joe Flacco doesn't fit a West Coast system, so let's just keep using it in the hope that Flacco will finally "get it." Really? Why not tailor an offense to actually work with the tools your QB has. He's not a noodle-armed Alex Smith. He's a gunslinger with a strong arm. Oh good, I am so glad he's best buddies with some of the players. This isn't about having tea parties. This is about winning football games. I don't care if they hate the guy as long as they are winning.

3) Proven upgrade? Marty's track record is pretty horrible as well so I don't buy this argument either. You don't always have to go with OC's either. Maybe you do something bold and "creative" just like Harbaugh said he wants to do and you promote a position coach from some other team that is turning heads? So yeah, when he had a team full of stars he did a great job calling plays and when he didn't have talent he did poorly.

4) I'd be more willing to give him a chance if I actually saw some improvement on the field. They didn't run the ball. They continued to run stupid playaction passes with no set up. They continued to run all of these stupid multiple motion plays where the whole offense looked confused and could never get in position. How many negative yard screen passes did we use? All I know is I better see something completely different next season.

And now the question that begs to be asked is this.

If it wasn't the coaching then the only other thing you can blame are the players? Are you admitting that the drafts were busts and that there is no talent on this team? Or is it the coaching staff not being able to develop the supposed potential and talent of these players? Got to be one or the other.

[jsarrocohome@yahoo.com]

I'm curious, when did Harbs have time to research coordinators? The season ended on Sunday. Must have been after the Steelers loss. Something isn't right with that response IMO. I initially thought Marty Ball would be a good fit, but when you look at his track record over time as an OC, what we got was who he is. Andy Reid ran the Eagles offense. Rick Dennison would have been a very interesting consideration. Would he consider a return as QB? Unlikely, unless he's not kept in Denver in some capacity. Oh well. Still a fan, but Harbs is a broken record, and I won't be paying any attention to them or the beat writers this off-season. Once the State of Ravens concludes..........

Harbaugh's full of it

[rmcjacket23]

Mike McCoy falls under the "too good to hire" category. If McCoy does too well, he's a HC again, possibly even with the Ravens, which obviously threatens Harbaugh's job security. Can't hire him. I don't think Rick Dennison falls into that category, but he's not technically available anyway, at least not until the Broncos' next HC makes a decision on his coordinators.

He hired Trestman and Kubiak, both being significant threats to be HC candidates again AND to his own job security.

[rmcjacket23]

1) You're darn right. By throwing his gauntlet down for Marty and Dean, he's put his own job on the line. So yeah, maybe feeling some heat on themselves to produce something other than a steaming Waste products on the field might I dunno..motivate them to get after their players and I dunno...hold them accountable for when they screw up things.

2) The only reason why you stick with Marty is consistency. To me, that's not a good enough reason. Marty doesn't exactly have an overwhelming track record. Unless he was tasked with simply running Trestman's offense all year for the sake of keeping the players up to speed with the playbook, why would you expect him to do anything differently than what he already showed you? Harbaugh and Flacco both said they needed to run more...yet they didn't. Joe Flacco doesn't fit a West Coast system, so let's just keep using it in the hope that Flacco will finally "get it." Really? Why not tailor an offense to actually work with the tools your QB has. He's not a noodle-armed Alex Smith. He's a gunslinger with a strong arm. Oh good, I am so glad he's best buddies with some of the players. This isn't about having tea parties. This is about winning football games. I don't care if they hate the guy as long as they are winning.

3) Proven upgrade? Marty's track record is pretty horrible as well so I don't buy this argument either. You don't always have to go with OC's either. Maybe you do something bold and "creative" just like Harbaugh said he wants to do and you promote a position coach from some other team that is turning heads? So yeah, when he had a team full of stars he did a great job calling plays and when he didn't have talent he did poorly.

4) I'd be more willing to give him a chance if I actually saw some improvement on the field. They didn't run the ball. They continued to run stupid playaction passes with no set up. They continued to run all of these stupid multiple motion plays where the whole offense looked confused and could never get in position. How many negative yard screen passes did we use? All I know is I better see something completely different next season.

And now the question that begs to be asked is this.

If it wasn't the coaching then the only other thing you can blame are the players? Are you admitting that the drafts were busts and that there is no talent on this team? Or is it the coaching staff not being able to develop the supposed potential and talent of these players? Got to be one or the other.

1. He's damn of he does, damned if he doesn't. Lets say John does what fans want him to do and fire both of his coordinators... what does that say about John? He hired Trestman and fired him within two years, then fired his replacement, and then fired his DC... in like a day.

What does that say about his own talent evaluation that the coaches he hired weren't very good?

I've said this before... show me the HC in this league that fired both of his coordinators in a short period of time and then kept his own job very long? By firing both of your coordinators, you're admitting that you screwed up, and now your boss knows it. Who do you think he blames next?

I agree he's covering his own butt, but I also can't blame him for it, because its the only way he keeps his job. If I were the Owner or GM, and I saw my HC can both of his coordinators, I'd probably just fire the HC.

2. Nobody will admit anything, but yes, its a talent problem. I think that's pretty clear at this point. They are old in areas where they should be young, and they have players underachieving. I suppose you could blame some of that on coaching, but a lot of these guys have been playing football for decades now, and a lot of the underachievers are veterans who shouldn't need a ton of coaching at this point.

We will see coaching changes, and the fact that he has to answer questions about his coordinators indicates that he's aware that the perception is that its a coaching problem.

As is usually the case, its a combination of both. But I can say for certain that without a talent upgrade at several key spots, I don't care who the coaches are, because it won't matter.

[Crusader]

Curious how Johns going to handle this off season now that it looks as if everything is on the line like draft picks & free agents. Guess will see what the players think by who stays, who goes and who comes here.

[Ed# for president]

joe is the problem here IMO, bad mechanics, NO type of leadership, have you guys ever seen the "many faces of so & so" pics? thats joe right there, always the same stupid look on his face no matter whats going on, he doesnt audible out of bad playcalls (based on what defense is doing), and can barely read a defense... but hey... at least we arent browns fans, right?

[metalraven]

  4 hours ago, Raven in ATL said:

anyone else like Jabrill Peppers with our 16th pick? would be nice to have not just playmakers, but game changers like we used to with Reed in the secondary.

I like Peppers, but I am hearing that Malik Hooker is the best safety, the like of Ed Reed. Also I hear that Jamal Adams is also better than Peppers. But all 3 are very good safety. One of them will be there at pick 16th. Also a top pass rusher and top corner will be there too. Basically when will be on the clock, we will have a pool of top 5 safety, top 5 pass rushers and top 5 conerbacks. So Ozzie will have to make a choice. Hopefully we will get a game changer.

I'd say that a top CB is more urgent than a S. Weddle and Webb actually did pretty good for the most part.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

3 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1. He's damn of he does, damned if he doesn't. Lets say John does what fans want him to do and fire both of his coordinators... what does that say about John? He hired Trestman and fired him within two years, then fired his replacement, and then fired his DC... in like a day.

What does that say about his own talent evaluation that the coaches he hired weren't very good?

I've said this before... show me the HC in this league that fired both of his coordinators in a short period of time and then kept his own job very long? By firing both of your coordinators, you're admitting that you screwed up, and now your boss knows it. Who do you think he blames next?

I agree he's covering his own butt, but I also can't blame him for it, because its the only way he keeps his job. If I were the Owner or GM, and I saw my HC can both of his coordinators, I'd probably just fire the HC.

2. Nobody will admit anything, but yes, its a talent problem. I think that's pretty clear at this point. They are old in areas where they should be young, and they have players underachieving. I suppose you could blame some of that on coaching, but a lot of these guys have been playing football for decades now, and a lot of the underachievers are veterans who shouldn't need a ton of coaching at this point.

We will see coaching changes, and the fact that he has to answer questions about his coordinators indicates that he's aware that the perception is that its a coaching problem.

As is usually the case, its a combination of both. But I can say for certain that without a talent upgrade at several key spots, I don't care who the coaches are, because it won't matter.

1) Bingo. Maybe it is time the head coach goes as well. There is a problem in Baltimore and apparently the people running the ship don't know exactly how to fix it. The same problems exist every season. But to answer your question what does it say?

It says that Trestman doesn't run an offense as close to Kubiak as you thought. Marty wasn't brought in to be an OC anyway, so you're not really firing him, you're just not extending his 'interim" tag. Pees has been around for years and while his defenses ranked no worse than 12th save for the injury plagued season of 2015, they have a recurring problem. So to me it shows me that a Head Coach is more interested in trying to win than saving his back side, which...if he does win, he does the latter by default. You keep your job by winning.

There is some talent on this team and the issue is using it correctly. This team worked best when it had two speed blazers in Torrey Smith and Jacoby Jones running deep and made defenses worry about both of those guys burning them deep and a power run scheme while a healthy Pitta worked underneath with Boldin because the top was taken off the defense by Jones and Smith. Now we run this stupid WC defense where teams just run a zone and all of our wideouts are all bunched up together 10 yards or less down the field. Instead of pounding the rock with our one-cut backs we try to send them on these weird sweeps and forever to develop counter plays. Cut the cutie pie stuff and just slam the ball. That actually was how this running game got its success. Running between Yanda and Stanley on the left and between Ducasse and Wagner on the right. West and Dixon would then break a tackle or two. Go figure.

[respecttheRaven]

Really good article by Ravens247....different perspective.  http://russellstreetreport.com/2017/01/04/lombardis-way/bisciotti-does-it-harbaughs-way/

[20306cab]

joe is the problem here IMO, bad mechanics, NO type of leadership, have you guys ever seen the "many faces of so & so" pics? thats joe right there, always the same stupid look on his face no matter whats going on, he doesnt audible out of bad playcalls (based on what defense is doing), and can barely read a defense... but hey... at least we arent browns fans, right?

Pathetic Joe is laughing all the way to the bank. Sometimes he and Self Righteous John share a limo to get there, and reminisce about another year full of bonehead calls and blockhead plays.

[Ravenous_Ravens]

  6 hours ago, griffrb said:

I'm curious, when did Harbs have time to research coordinators? The season ended on Sunday. Must have been after the Steelers loss. Something isn't right with that response IMO. I initially thought Marty Ball would be a good fit, but when you look at his track record over time as an OC, what we got was who he is. Andy Reid ran the Eagles offense. Rick Dennison would have been a very interesting consideration. Would he consider a return as QB? Unlikely, unless he's not kept in Denver in some capacity. Oh well. Still a fan, but Harbs is a broken record, and I won't be paying any attention to them or the beat writers this off-season. Once the State of Ravens concludes..........

Harbaugh's full of it

Well, IF I WAS JOHN, I would have started looking around after firing Trestman earlier this season. I mean you would already have known this was something on your plate, whether you deal with it in a day or 6 months from now.

[sizzlingdoom]

  12 hours ago, griffrb said:

I'm curious, when did Harbs have time to research coordinators? The season ended on Sunday. Must have been after the Steelers loss. Something isn't right with that response IMO. I initially thought Marty Ball would be a good fit, but when you look at his track record over time as an OC, what we got was who he is. Andy Reid ran the Eagles offense. Rick Dennison would have been a very interesting consideration. Would he consider a return as QB? Unlikely, unless he's not kept in Denver in some capacity. Oh well. Still a fan, but Harbs is a broken record, and I won't be paying any attention to them or the beat writers this off-season. Once the State of Ravens concludes..........

Harbaugh's full of it

Very full of it

[RaRaRavens]

Very good points in this article and in comments that make a lot of sense why Harbaugh kept Marty and why it maybe is not so bad thing. I especially like this idea: "I also think #Harbaugh is smart enough to know that no matter what he did with the coordinators in 2017, it's win or find a new gig.". So Harbs should be very motivated to win in 2017.

However, I still have little confidence in Marty's abilities. Harbaugh already kept an average OC last year in Trestman. Granted, there was reason to believe that poor performance by the offense was due to the rash of injuries. It turned out it wasn't as poor performance by the offense continued.

Now it's the same thing, Harbaugh is keeping an average OC. The only thing, our offense was as healthy as it can be this season. What's to make anyone believe that the offense can be better next year under Marty?

[Rav'n Maniac]

Obviously, Bisciotti is content with Harbs and his decisions along with his staff. With Pees tied to one hip and Marty to the other I feel it will be difficult for Harbs to tread water. I'm not ecstatic about it but, as a fan I will support them. Now how about we go out and find some damn playmakers to help get us there.

[Chuckx999]

Everything about the coaching staff and player performance has declined since Ray Lewis and Ed Reed retired. No Kickbutt player left. How and why keep these people?

[rmcjacket23]

14 hours ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

1) Bingo. Maybe it is time the head coach goes as well. There is a problem in Baltimore and apparently the people running the ship don't know exactly how to fix it. The same problems exist every season. But to answer your question what does it say?

It says that Trestman doesn't run an offense as close to Kubiak as you thought. Marty wasn't brought in to be an OC anyway, so you're not really firing him, you're just not extending his 'interim" tag. Pees has been around for years and while his defenses ranked no worse than 12th save for the injury plagued season of 2015, they have a recurring problem. So to me it shows me that a Head Coach is more interested in trying to win than saving his back side, which...if he does win, he does the latter by default. You keep your job by winning.

There is some talent on this team and the issue is using it correctly. This team worked best when it had two speed blazers in Torrey Smith and Jacoby Jones running deep and made defenses worry about both of those guys burning them deep and a power run scheme while a healthy Pitta worked underneath with Boldin because the top was taken off the defense by Jones and Smith. Now we run this stupid WC defense where teams just run a zone and all of our wideouts are all bunched up together 10 yards or less down the field. Instead of pounding the rock with our one-cut backs we try to send them on these weird sweeps and forever to develop counter plays. Cut the cutie pie stuff and just slam the ball. That actually was how this running game got its success. Running between Yanda and Stanley on the left and between Ducasse and Wagner on the right. West and Dixon would then break a tackle or two. Go figure.

Well I mean that's all great in theory, but its not like our offensive line was really that effective at run blocking for most of the season. If they were, then we wouldn't rank in the 20s in YPC, but we do. That's sort of the false narrative on these boards... that the solution is just to run the ball more. In actuality, its a combination of running the ball more and running the ball more effectively.

Teams like Cleveland or Green Bay can complain about not running the ball enough, because they were quite good at it when they did. We were not. We were below average at it.

At the end of the day, this offense works best when its offensive line is playing well. That's where the focus needs to be. 

[The Mom Gene]

Just now, Chuckx999 said:

Everything about the coaching staff and player performance has declined since Ray Lewis and Ed Reed retired. No Kickbutt player left. How and why keep these people?

Of course.  That's obvious.  You're talking about 2 HOF Players....  They are VERY difficult and unlikely would we be ale to replace them   #2GOATS.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Well I mean that's all great in theory, but its not like our offensive line was really that effective at run blocking for most of the season. If they were, then we wouldn't rank in the 20s in YPC, but we do. That's sort of the false narrative on these boards... that the solution is just to run the ball more. In actuality, its a combination of running the ball more and running the ball more effectively.

Teams like Cleveland or Green Bay can complain about not running the ball enough, because they were quite good at it when they did. We were not. We were below average at it.

At the end of the day, this offense works best when its offensive line is playing well. That's where the focus needs to be. 

You had two running backs averaging 4 yards per carry or better and while that may not be fantastically amazing upper echelon stuff right there, that's good enough to warrant pounding the rock some more. I agree that they needed to run it more effectively and they could have done that with better play calling. We had a lot of negative runs because of the cutesy style they tried to run the ball. Stupid multiple motion formations that never worked. Running the same run play two or three times after the team has already proven they know that play and that formation and blew it up already. I am referring to specifically the weak side run where the outside receiver motions to the other side of the field, Juice is off set to the right, then counter blocks left to the weak side while the right guard is attempting to pull (and fails because he can't move well enough) and the running back runs off tackle left. They ran that same play from the same formation with the same motion four times in one game and it didn't work once.

They did their best and most productive running running between the guards and tackles and more so running just off left and right tackle. Any time they tried sweeps or counters or draws up the middle behind Zuttah they usually got blown up. If I can see this time and time again you know it has to be on film and the coaches know it...yet they do the same stuff over and over again. At what point do you learn?

THe offensive line was good enough for both West and Dixon to get 4 yards a gain or more. That's no false narrative.

[rmcjacket23]

2 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

You had two running backs averaging 4 yards per carry or better and while that may not be fantastically amazing upper echelon stuff right there, that's good enough to warrant pounding the rock some more. I agree that they needed to run it more effectively and they could have done that with better play calling. We had a lot of negative runs because of the cutesy style they tried to run the ball. Stupid multiple motion formations that never worked. Running the same run play two or three times after the team has already proven they know that play and that formation and blew it up already. I am referring to specifically the weak side run where the outside receiver motions to the other side of the field, Juice is off set to the right, then counter blocks left to the weak side while the right guard is attempting to pull (and fails because he can't move well enough) and the running back runs off tackle left. They ran that same play from the same formation with the same motion four times in one game and it didn't work once.

They did their best and most productive running running between the guards and tackles and more so running just off left and right tackle. Any time they tried sweeps or counters or draws up the middle behind Zuttah they usually got blown up. If I can see this time and time again you know it has to be on film and the coaches know it...yet they do the same stuff over and over again. At what point do you learn?

THe offensive line was good enough for both West and Dixon to get 4 yards a gain or more. That's no false narrative.

1. 4 YPC is in that average to below average range for RBs and for teams in general. As a team, we average 4 YPC, and that ranked us in the low 20s in effectiveness. Among qualifying RBs, there were 27 RBs in the league that averaged 4.0 YPC or more, and there's another half dozen that are in that 3.8, 3.9 range. So you're looking at, on average, just about every team in the league having a qualified RB averaging 4.0 YPC, so its not really an accomplishment. That's in many ways like the minimum standard.

2. I don't disagree that formations play a roll, but we were also notoriously bad on short yardage situations running between the tackles, especially on 2nd down or on downs where the defense was playing the run. 

[ozrave]

To me, it's a simple decision, directed by Joe Flacco, Denis Pitta and no doubt other players. 'No more change at OC ; we've had enough'. That strong message to Coach Harbaugh is the reason the search process for a new OC was canned.

[purpledown]

this is all on Harbaugh, playoffs or bust. The Ravens finally hit on a first round pick , Stanley is a future Ogden.

[Raven'evermore]

 Jmo, but another reason for our running game being ranked so low is because we're not using it enough to punish the other teams d line.  Back when we had Jamal Lewis the running game didn't really take off til the second half.  You could see how the opposing team was tiring trying to hold up against our run.  True that Dixon nor West are in the same build as Lewis but they have enough strength and size to wear down other teams.  Also, if we continue to use them interchangeably like we have, they'll remain more rested.  Perhaps even use Allen sparingly sometimes to help.  Again jmo.

[Ugly Ball]

Everything about the coaching staff and player performance has declined since Ray Lewis and Ed Reed retired. No Kickbutt player left. How and why keep these people?

We do have Tucker signed !