No changes made to top coaching staff? Lower level changes, though.

[The Raven]

Just now, redrum52 said:

Gotta blame someone...

And I guess concluding that the players suck just isn't good enough for some people.

Or worse, concluding that Ozzie didn't do enough for the oline until it was too little and too late.

[redrum52]

7 minutes ago, The Raven said:

And I guess concluding that the players suck just isn't good enough for some people.

Or worse, concluding that Ozzie didn't do enough for the oline until it was too little and too late.

Was looking at drafts and the teams recent history isn't much to write home about.  Combine that with the fact the people we have hit on aren't re-signed and it's easy to understand why we've been somewhat stagnant.  Bad drafts, bad contracts with bad injuries all seemed to happen right at a veteran purge/retirement phase.  

[K-Dog]

3 hours ago, Swift 1 said:

IMO Coaches are overrated. The players execute. To stop some of the negs I am going to get, I will admit coaches can help.

no negs from me.  There is truth to that.  Like Eisenberg said yesterday ,,, something to the effect that Marty is not so much the problem as much as the play calling.  
After that it is all on the players to execute. 

53 minutes ago, Moderator 3 said:

Lucky for us, not everyone feels it's all doom amd gloom.

NFL rebuild rankings: Which teams are in best shape for 2017?

http://usat.ly/2hT3S65

This place has been a mess since Pitts-burgh.  I am not surprised at some of the doom and gloomers, but there are so many on here now, who I am shocked and disappointed that they are acting this way.

I mean, yeah the past three seasons have sucked.  But it hasn't been for the sake of sucking.  

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I get people upset with the lack of coaching changes. But the way I see it... these guys know most intimately why we failed this season. They know firsthand what worked and what went wrong. 

And I've heard things from Harbs and Joe I just haven't heard in the past. The emphasis on getting Joe a QB coach tells me the staff recognize the need to have someone dedicated to cleaning up Joe's mechanics.

joe normally scoffs at the idea of throwing with receivers in the offseason. He came right out and said he'll be scheduling sessions already. 

Hes always played down the idea of the OC and having consistency... yet he came out front and endorsed keeping Marty. Tells me he's recognizing that the inability to be a Joe of all offenses, master of none isn't getting it done. 

And Harbs keeping his staff shows me an urgency to get this done. Not take another year learning a system. Not another year of Harbs being hands off and letting a new guy come in and do his thing. 

Marty knows his jobs on the line. They all do. And Harbs has more control over Marty than he would a new guy coming in. They can start today on fixing this thing instead of a month from now, and then having to spend time collaborating, learning the new OCs verbiage, and building the offense.

The fixing starts now. I'm seeing a sense of urgency and mortality I haven't seen from this staff and the leader players before. 

And it seems there's an understanding that it gets done now or they're done. I'm very much ok with that. 

[atomicfront]

I really see zero point for calling assistant coaches to be fired.  Harbaugh is the head coach whomever he selects as coaches is fine with me.  He should be responsible for the results along with Ozzie.  The team just fired Tresmsn and now they want his replacement fired?

 

 

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

2 hours ago, The Raven said:

For the millionth time, Castillo is not responsible for the run scheme. He is solely responsible for technique. Harbaugh has even said that. He hasn't had that "run game coordinator" title since 2013.

 

And Castillo has done a damn good job mind everyone. Ronnie Stanley is evident proof, but Urschel and Jensen are both capable backups and good depth on the oline. I don't subscribe to the notion that either of them could be starters, but they're above average depth pieces imo. Alex lewis as well. Rick Wagner had developed into a good tackle. It's not Castillo's fault that Zuttah has started regressing.

 

Juan had done his job and has his work cut out for him.

 

just don't make him a defensive coordinator... if you think Pees is bad......

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

2 hours ago, The Raven said:

And I guess concluding that the players suck just isn't good enough for some people.

I personally think that ms what the anti pees people don't get. "We've invested a lot of picks into the defense. They haven't developed and it's his fault." Ever consider that Elam, Brown, Brooks, Smith(ZDS) , etc, just flat out sucked? Ozzie has also neglected the secondary, hasnt hit on a pass rusher(Judon is a good start but I think he's more of a #2. IMO he's got a future as a starter in the league). That's why I can't put 100% of the blame on Pees. Fourth quarter collapses, especially the Pittsburgh one, can be attributed to the lack of pass rush. 

 

Im not saying fire Ozzie, past three drafts have been better, but he was off his game for awhile. He bears the most blame for the mess we are in. I agree with @rmw10, be happy that the 2016 draft was great, cause it saved his butt

[The Raven]

4 minutes ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

I personally think that ms what the anti pees people don't get. "We've invested a lot of picks into the defense. They haven't developed and it's his fault." Ever consider that Elam, Brown, Brooks, Smith(ZDS) , etc, just flat out sucked? Ozzie has also neglected the secondary, hasnt hit on a pass rusher(Judon is a good start but I think he's more of a #2. IMO he's got a future as a starter in the league). That's why I can't put 100% of the blame on Pees. Fourth quarter collapses, especially the Pittsburgh one, can be attributed to the lack of pass rush. 

 

Im not saying fire Ozzie, past three drafts have been better, but he was off his game for awhile. He bears the most blame for the mess we are in. I agree with @rmw10, be happy that the 2016 draft was great, cause it saved his butt

What sucks is that during his three or four year skid, we failed to retain every player that DID turn out.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

1 minute ago, The Raven said:

What sucks is that during his three or four year skid, we failed to retain every player that DID turn out.

I'd say the skid lasted 2 years. 2012-2013 were terrible. So was 2010, but we had 2011 which was a good draft. I'd say 2014 and 2015 were good. 2016 was great.

 

I don't think we're doomed. I think we are moving in the right direction even with the thing that will probably cost Harbaugh his job

 

As much as I hate Marty I think if we invest in the oline the offense will play better, and the runs will be more effective. 

[redrum52]

59 minutes ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

I'd say the skid lasted 2 years. 2012-2013 were terrible. So was 2010, but we had 2011 which was a good draft. I'd say 2014 and 2015 were good. 2016 was great.

 

I don't think we're doomed. I think we are moving in the right direction even with the thing that will probably cost Harbaugh his job

 

As much as I hate Marty I think if we invest in the oline the offense will play better, and the runs will be more effective. 

This is what I was saying.  Too many things happened in a short period of time which hurt the team.  Rice, Webb, Flacco, Pitta, Monroe and Smith all re-signed within a 2 years, I think, of each other while sustaining injuries... or miscellaneous...  Players retiring, bad drafts and I guess it's the perfect storm, even though I still think the team should play better.

[Grapple Raven]

4 hours ago, The Raven said:

For the millionth time, Castillo is not responsible for the run scheme. He is solely responsible for technique. Harbaugh has even said that. He hasn't had that "run game coordinator" title since 2013.

Oh, and in 2013 he had an oline with AQ Shipley, Giino Gradkowski, and Mike Oher. Two of those guys aren't in the league anymore.

In 2015 and 2016, he's dealt with a Zuttah that regressed terribly, constant injuries, and a revolving door at left guard.

If you want to blame someone for poor oline play, blame Ozzie for not addressing it.

Take it from John Harbaugh who addressed this in the 2013 State of the Ravens address. This was directly from the transcript of the 2013 State of the Ravens presser, and I don't think Harbaugh could have made it any clearer:

Question:

"John, you kind of mentioned last week how we are the conduit for the fans. There has been no greater name since the end of the season than Juan Castillo. Would you be willing to shed some light on what exactly he did this year, how his job was different than Andy Moeller's, and if you will come back next year with the same structure of what most people perceive to be two offensive line coaches – the same structure of him as run game coordinator and Andy Moeller?" (Steve Davis)

Response:

(JOHN HARBAUGH) "That's a good question, thanks. I can understand why Juan [Castillo] is a lightning rod right now because of the way that was set up and structured. Then, we go into the season, and we have our worst year ever running the ball, and he's got that [run game coordinator] title. So, that's on me. When we hired Juan, and we added Juan and had a chance to add Juan last year, the idea was to add another great coach into our mix. Juan functioned as the lead offensive line coach last year; that was his job. The title was a way to have three great offensive line coaches in our mix right there. Andy [Moeller] had a big contribution last year, was a little bit different than he had the year before. It wasn't the same as he had when he was with John Matsko. So, we had three guys working together, and I thought it was going to be a really good mix. And, I thought those guys did a really good job of coaching together. We didn't get the result we wanted to get. But, Juan was the offensive line coach. And the titles going forward – and that's one of the things that Ozzie and I talked a lot about, and I talked a lot with Juan about this and talked with Andy about this – Juan's title is going to be the ‘offensive line coach.' That's the way he worked last year; he worked as an offensive line coach. The offensive line coach works the run schemes and the pass protection schemes. He is pretty much out front and leads on that, but the offensive coordinator is in charge of the offense. He organizes the offense and decides exactly how we're going to do the details of that. Then, I'm on top of that, and I make all the final decisions as far as what direction we go and how we do it. So, it really didn't function any differently last year than it had the year before or the four years before that, and that's the way it worked. Going forward, our plan right now is to improve, is to get better. There are a lot of things that we didn't do well as a coaching staff, and we look at ourselves first. We've got to do a better job of putting our players in a position to make plays – offense, defense and special teams. If we find a way to score another couple touchdowns in the red zone, we're in the playoffs. If we find a way to eliminate a couple turnovers, we're in the playoffs. If we find a way to get a stop in a critical situation at the end of a game – even right to the Cincinnati game – if we do just a little bit more of that, we're in the playoffs. But, that's the fine line of the National Football League. That's what makes the league so great – what we're talking about. That is why it's so exciting and so competitive. But, we've got to find a way as a coaching staff to get the very most out of the players that we have, and that's what I'm working on right now, along with Ozzie and Steve and Dick and our coaching staff. Let's set this thing up as well as we possibly can with our staff, working together, utilizing everybody's strengths, balancing our weaknesses with a lot of great coaches, and building schemes that are going to make us the best we can be next year. And that's what we're going to try to do. So, Juan will be the offensive line coach next year. The rest of it is a little bit in flux right now. We're two weeks earlier to this probably – two, three, four weeks even – than we have been in the past. We've been coaching football games at this point in time. So, as all this NFL coaching drama goes on, some of our guys are involved in that, and we'll just have to see how it shakes out. But, we're going to build a great coaching staff again this year."

 

[ravensdfan]

15 hours ago, R@venFan808 said:

The game folds in the end because the defensive players on the field can't call the right plays in the 2 min drill. If D pees is not calling the plays they fold. On top of that Defense has suffered key injuries all year. Suggs playing with a torn bicep, Doom recovering because  we now know he had surgery in the off season. Kafusi and Correa both were injured for most of the year. Leaving 4th round picks to do most of the dirty work for pass rushing.  Im seeing a lot of reasons why the defense folds. Pees is not one of them.

Five seasons of excuses for Pees lol This isn't a new thing - it has been here as long as he has. Including that SB we won. Where we were up 28-6 and nearly lost.

[ravensdfan]

18 hours ago, redrum52 said:

To top off this argument, in each of the drafts since 2013, not counting 16, most of the players kept from each draft have been on the offensive side of the ball.  From 2013, the only production we saw was from Williams.  It's very likely none of the top 4 picks from that draft will even be on this team next year with 2 already gone and one a bust who's here cause of lack of depth. 

So your argument then is that Ozzie & company have sucked it up then. Because it is either one or the other. Our scouting department and our GM(s) have been garbage or our defensive coaches don't know how to develop talent.

I mean, let's be honest. The defense has seen stability and the bulk of the top draft picks since 2013. Yet, they have the same issues.

The offense, on the other hand, has had no stability and seen only this last draft of top picks. Which is why it isn't fair to put the blame at the feet of the offense for not performing & flat out ignore the defense's failings.

Offense puts up 30 pts - defense gives up 33pts - it's the offenses fault we lost because they had the ball the last minute and didn't score

Offense craps the bed the first half but takes the lead the 2nd half. defense pisses away a 4th quarter lead. It's the offenses fault for only showing up for one half.

offense goes into halftime or 4th with a 2 score lead. defense pisses it away not forcing one punt the entire 2nd half. It's the offense fault for not scoring more TDs.

It's really quite absurd. The offense with all its turnover and turmoil is expected to perform an entire game ALL the time AND always score but the defense is allowed to take the entire 4th quarter off (sometimes the half & even the game. I recall a Pitt game where they forced not one single punt that everyone blamed on the offense) and it's a-okay and Pees is awesome.

I figure either a few coordinators change up their game or get fired sometime during the season. Otherwise, Harbs is probably out of a job.

Again, standing pat and expecting different results is truly the definition of insanity.

[rmcjacket23]

34 minutes ago, ravensdfan said:

So your argument then is that Ozzie & company have sucked it up then. Because it is either one or the other. Our scouting department and our GM(s) have been garbage or our defensive coaches don't know how to develop talent.

I mean, let's be honest. The defense has seen stability and the bulk of the top draft picks since 2013. Yet, they have the same issues.

The offense, on the other hand, has had no stability and seen only this last draft of top picks. Which is why it isn't fair to put the blame at the feet of the offense for not performing & flat out ignore the defense's failings.

Offense puts up 30 pts - defense gives up 33pts - it's the offenses fault we lost because they had the ball the last minute and didn't score

Offense craps the bed the first half but takes the lead the 2nd half. defense pisses away a 4th quarter lead. It's the offenses fault for only showing up for one half.

offense goes into halftime or 4th with a 2 score lead. defense pisses it away not forcing one punt the entire 2nd half. It's the offense fault for not scoring more TDs.

It's really quite absurd. The offense with all its turnover and turmoil is expected to perform an entire game ALL the time AND always score but the defense is allowed to take the entire 4th quarter off (sometimes the half & even the game. I recall a Pitt game where they forced not one single punt that everyone blamed on the offense) and it's a-okay and Pees is awesome.

I figure either a few coordinators change up their game or get fired sometime during the season. Otherwise, Harbs is probably out of a job.

Again, standing pat and expecting different results is truly the definition of insanity.

The same could be said for constantly firing people and not addressing the bigger issues, such as talent evaluation and development. Firing coaches consistently and expecting different results without addressing the core problems would be the definition of insanity as well.

If there's one positive that came out of this season, its that fans finally learned that canning a coordinator you don't like mid-season or even at all doesn't, in fact, lead to the promise land. Finally the Cam Cameron theory is dead and buried.

[The Raven]

10 hours ago, Grapple Raven said:

Take it from John Harbaugh who addressed this in the 2013 State of the Ravens address. This was directly from the transcript of the 2013 State of the Ravens presser, and I don't think Harbaugh could have made it any clearer:

Question:

"John, you kind of mentioned last week how we are the conduit for the fans. There has been no greater name since the end of the season than Juan Castillo. Would you be willing to shed some light on what exactly he did this year, how his job was different than Andy Moeller's, and if you will come back next year with the same structure of what most people perceive to be two offensive line coaches – the same structure of him as run game coordinator and Andy Moeller?" (Steve Davis)

Response:

(JOHN HARBAUGH) "That's a good question, thanks. I can understand why Juan [Castillo] is a lightning rod right now because of the way that was set up and structured. Then, we go into the season, and we have our worst year ever running the ball, and he's got that [run game coordinator] title. So, that's on me. When we hired Juan, and we added Juan and had a chance to add Juan last year, the idea was to add another great coach into our mix. Juan functioned as the lead offensive line coach last year; that was his job. The title was a way to have three great offensive line coaches in our mix right there. Andy [Moeller] had a big contribution last year, was a little bit different than he had the year before. It wasn't the same as he had when he was with John Matsko. So, we had three guys working together, and I thought it was going to be a really good mix. And, I thought those guys did a really good job of coaching together. We didn't get the result we wanted to get. But, Juan was the offensive line coach. And the titles going forward – and that's one of the things that Ozzie and I talked a lot about, and I talked a lot with Juan about this and talked with Andy about this – Juan's title is going to be the ‘offensive line coach.' That's the way he worked last year; he worked as an offensive line coach. The offensive line coach works the run schemes and the pass protection schemes. He is pretty much out front and leads on that, but the offensive coordinator is in charge of the offense. He organizes the offense and decides exactly how we're going to do the details of that. Then, I'm on top of that, and I make all the final decisions as far as what direction we go and how we do it. So, it really didn't function any differently last year than it had the year before or the four years before that, and that's the way it worked. Going forward, our plan right now is to improve, is to get better. There are a lot of things that we didn't do well as a coaching staff, and we look at ourselves first. We've got to do a better job of putting our players in a position to make plays – offense, defense and special teams. If we find a way to score another couple touchdowns in the red zone, we're in the playoffs. If we find a way to eliminate a couple turnovers, we're in the playoffs. If we find a way to get a stop in a critical situation at the end of a game – even right to the Cincinnati game – if we do just a little bit more of that, we're in the playoffs. But, that's the fine line of the National Football League. That's what makes the league so great – what we're talking about. That is why it's so exciting and so competitive. But, we've got to find a way as a coaching staff to get the very most out of the players that we have, and that's what I'm working on right now, along with Ozzie and Steve and Dick and our coaching staff. Let's set this thing up as well as we possibly can with our staff, working together, utilizing everybody's strengths, balancing our weaknesses with a lot of great coaches, and building schemes that are going to make us the best we can be next year. And that's what we're going to try to do. So, Juan will be the offensive line coach next year. The rest of it is a little bit in flux right now. We're two weeks earlier to this probably – two, three, four weeks even – than we have been in the past. We've been coaching football games at this point in time. So, as all this NFL coaching drama goes on, some of our guys are involved in that, and we'll just have to see how it shakes out. But, we're going to build a great coaching staff again this year."

 

Well, I'll own that.

But... question... If Castillo was really the one with universal say over schemes, why has our blocking scheme changed so much, while he remains the constant? Hmm.

Regardless of that point, I'm not blaming Castillo when we've had such terrible players on the line. He turned a rookie into a top five left tackle and made Alex Lewis good enough to hold his own at LT. He turned Ryan Jensen from a small school nobody to one of the best run blockers on the team. Rick Wagner has also developed into a top three right tackle. KO went from RT, to LG, to LT under Castillo and then got paid and is a top five overall lineman.

When you look at the facts, it doesn't make logical sense to blame Castillo.

Edited January 5 by The Raven

[gtalk12]

defense did well for most of the year and trailed off at the end at the same time Jimmy went down....you know....our best defender next to Mosley and Weddle. What we need is a DE or OLB that can get to the QB.

 

We need health and some draft picks

[rmcjacket23]

8 minutes ago, gtalk12 said:

defense did well for most of the year and trailed off at the end at the same time Jimmy went down....you know....our best defender next to Mosley and Weddle. What we need is a DE or OLB that can get to the QB.

 

We need health and some draft picks

In fairness, by NFL standards, we were quite healthy, particularly towards the end of the year. 

As is typical, I think it depends on WHO is healthy more than HOW MANY are healthy. If Joe's not healthy, nothing matters, and guys like Weddle and Smith are vital to the defense.

But at the end of the day, injuries to stars happen to most teams during the year, and its important to have quality depth to make up for it. And we are lacking in certain areas there.

[jazz1988]

 Assistant offensive line coach Todd Washington and head strength coach Bob Rogucki will not return, according to ESPN’s Adam Caplan.

[Moderator 3]

Kind of expected Rogucki.

[ellicottraven]

14 minutes ago, jazz1988 said:

 Assistant offensive line coach Todd Washington and head strength coach Bob Rogucki will not return, according to ESPN’s Adam Caplan.

So John finally got rid of a dinsaur in Rogucki! But yet keeps two other dinosaurs as coordinators. Strange!

Edited January 5 by ellicottraven

[ravens rule]

How would you guys feel about Chip Kelley as an assistant. I know it sounds crazy and he probably will go back to college. 

Edited January 5 by ravens rule

[rmcjacket23]

2 minutes ago, ravens rule said:

How would you guys feel about Chip Kelley as an assistant. I know it sounds crazy and he probably will go back to college. 

Apparently doesn't want to go back to college, but don't really see what value he adds here.

[jazz1988]

3 minutes ago, ravens rule said:

How would you guys feel about Chip Kelley as an assistant. 

I think that would be good move if the idea was to get the offense to play faster and more efficient.  

[rossihunter2]

2 minutes ago, jazz1988 said:

I think that would be good move if the idea was to get the offense to play faster and more efficient.  

and tire out our own defense which flags at the end of the 4th anyway

16 minutes ago, Moderator 3 said:

Kind of expected Rogucki.

will we even replace him or just leave his role to the new guy who came in for the last off season (can't remember his name)?

[jazz1988]

13 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

and tire out our own defense which flags at the end of the 4th anyway

will we even replace him or just leave his role to the new guy who came in for the last off season (can't remember his name)?

I don't think it works like that but The Ravens do need to get faster on offense. They move way too slow when it require for them to run the no huddle and save time on the clock. This isn't a new issue at all either and it needs to be fixed.

[allblackraven]

I'm not sure if our D line struggles at the end of the season were due to line coaching or conditioning issues but I think we missed on late coach Brooks' replacement with Cullen (funny how past transgressions don't apply to coaches, just college players) when Karl Dunbar was available.

[Sherly_Tebow]

Can there be an option in the poll for "Satisfied we retained both, but I'm not satisfied with them"?

Edited January 5 by Sherly_Tebow

[allblackraven]

Just now, Sherly_Tebow said:

Can there be an option in the poll for "Happy we retained both, but I'm not satisfied with them"?

Why are you happy then?

[Sherly_Tebow]

Just now, allblackraven said:

Why are you happy then?

Changed it to satisfied. Happy didn't sound right. I think they both deserved another year, but I'm not satisfied with how they did their job this year. 

[PurpleCity5]

I don't know what firing the strength/conditioning coach is going to do. Honestly think that maybe it isn't going to change much because the injuries that this team experienced on many occasions are season ending, and these players need to condition themselves. Well, we fans asked for changes and these are it, don't know what firing an assistant OL coach will do for you either but hey, we'll see.