Marty stays...fixing the offense heading into 2017

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, GrimCoconut said:

I mean per game? I want to see how it trended so I need to know run:pass for all 16 games. 

Ask and you shall receive:

	Pass Plays	Run Plays	Pass %	Run %
Buffalo	37	28	57%	43%	W
Cleveland	45	26	63%	37%	W
Jacksonville	42	22	66%	34%	W
Oakland	54	26	68%	33%	L
Washington	50	19	72%	28%	L
New York Giants	50	26	66%	34%	L
New York Jets	46	11	81%	19%	L
Pittsburgh	34	29	54%	46%	W
Cleveland	43	34	56%	44%	W
Dallas	36	16	69%	31%	L
Cincinnati	38	30	56%	44%	W
Miami	50	20	71%	29%	W
New England	54	14	79%	21%	L
Philadelphia	33	24	58%	42%	W
Pittsburgh	46	26	64%	36%	L
Cincinnati	54	16	77%	23%	L

[FerrariFan87]

Do or die next year for Harbs... can't believe he's bringing back Marty "worst call in history" Mornhinweg.

[rmw10]

19 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Ask and you shall receive:

	Pass Plays	Run Plays	Pass %	Run %
Buffalo	37	28	57%	43%	W
Cleveland	45	26	63%	37%	W
Jacksonville	42	22	66%	34%	W
Oakland	54	26	68%	33%	L
Washington	50	19	72%	28%	L
New York Giants	50	26	66%	34%	L
New York Jets	46	11	81%	19%	L
Pittsburgh	34	29	54%	46%	W
Cleveland	43	34	56%	44%	W
Dallas	36	16	69%	31%	L
Cincinnati	38	30	56%	44%	W
Miami	50	20	71%	29%	W
New England	54	14	79%	21%	L
Philadelphia	33	24	58%	42%	W
Pittsburgh	46	26	64%	36%	L
Cincinnati	54	16	77%	23%	L

Interesting that an overwhelming number of the games with a decent run/pass ratio turned into W's.  There are a couple outliers of course, like Miami, but there's definitely some semblance of a trend there.

[rmcjacket23]

11 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Interesting that an overwhelming number of the games with a decent run/pass ratio turned into W's.  There are a couple outliers of course, like Miami, but there's definitely some semblance of a trend there.

In general I agree. Its tough to say though taken out of context like this, because there were games where we are down big early that you just can't expect a balanced offense, and there's also games where it just doesn't make much sense to establish the run based on the team we were playing.

Like a 4:1 ratio is too high against the Jets, but I also don't blame us for not running it frequently against them.

Have to look at individual games obviously. When you look at Dallas, New England, or the 2nd Cincinnati game, you're spending much of the game trailing and sometimes trailing significantly. There's just not much upside to running the ball there.

Edited January 4 by rmcjacket23

[rmw10]

Just now, rmcjacket23 said:

In general I agree. Its tough to say though taken out of context like this, because there were games where we are down big early that you just can't expect a balanced offense, and there's also games where it just doesn't make much sense to establish the run based on the team we were playing.

Like a 4:1 ratio is too high against the Jets, but I also don't blame us for not running it frequently against them.

Agreed.  We could probably delve even further though and realize that some of those games when we got down early, we neglected to run the ball early.  I know off the top of my head that there were a few games where we just didn't run the ball at all on drive 1.

[Rav'n Maniac]

14 hours ago, FlocksGottaFeed said:

Firstly, have him admit to himself that he's not a top-tier QB currently although he's had a few great games (playoffs and SB). This will only challenge him to work harder to get to that goal and/or humble him enough to know that he must sacrifice enough to help the entire offensive unit to become top-tier. This may mean giving-up some of his salary to procure more talent around him (i.e. - Brady).

Just for curiosities sake, I'd like to hear how much of his salary you would like to see him give up? I mean, considering his salary is 6m in 2017, how much of that would help to procure more talent around him? As well, what kind of talent can we expect to get for 6m or less?

Joe's cap hit in 2017 is 6m in base salary and 18.55m in prorated signing bonus for a total of 24.55m. So unless you expect him to break out his own checkbook and fork over some portion of the money that has already been paid to him for signing and extending his contract, I can't see how this could help the team. Nobody, as well as no player, including Brady, would give back money already paid to them.

[BmoreBird22]

5 hours ago, Jacquouille said:

I'm basically of the unpopular opinion that it's Ok. It was timid, but Marty gave more opportunities to the run game. The offense looked more consistent, moved the ball and would have been even better if not for a couple terrible Joe INTs. 

I will let Marty prove himself this season. I'm more disappointed that we will get to see the prevent defense once more.

According to the averages, as of the Eagles or Steelers game, he actually DID NOT.

[RaineV1]

15 hours ago, FlocksGottaFeed said:

Does Our Organization Really Want to "Help Joe"? Really?

Here's the deal: If we really wanted to help Joe the 1st thing to do is to acknowledge and accept who he is. He will never likely be a top-tier QB by the end of his career. He is a reasonably efficient QB who if put in the right conditions can have 'top-tier' QB games from time to time. I'm still a fan of Joe's, but I think our organization is completely missing the boat on what it would take to elevate his play and make it more consistent. More play makers, coaching continuity and dedication are good, reasonable wishes, but Joe's more important need is urgency. It's mental beyond everything else.

1. Firstly, have him admit to himself that he's not a top-tier QB currently although he's had a few great games (playoffs and SB). This will only challenge him to work harder to get to that goal and/or humble him enough to know that he must sacrifice enough to help the entire offensive unit to become top-tier. This may mean giving-up some of his salary to procure more talent around him (i.e. - Brady).

2. Coaching/Continuity: The Marty-thing was a mistake. It won't help Joe to get there at all. The best move would have been to keep Marty as a QB Coach (only). That's adequate continuity. He should have just remained as a season fill-in and continue his earlier role because of his amicable relationship with Joe, but change is needed.

3. Bring-in a new OC that runs the current system, but lights a fire under Joe and doesn't allow him to dictate his play, scheme or even allow him to over-assess his development. Start with the most difficult variations of the current scheme during the off-season and stay with them.

4. Lastly, address his ego before it's too late. Yes, Joe has a huge ego. Examples of this are the "I don't want to be lining up at Z and X. I want to line up behind center..." wildcat rant even though the play averaged over 10 yards per attempt, on the ELITE question "I mean, I think I’m the best," he said back then. "I don’t think I’m top-five, I think I’m the best. I don’t think I’d be very successful at my job if I didn’t feel that way. I mean, come on." and his consistent insistence on not audibly out of bad play calls, work with the entire receiving core and skill players during off-seasons and generally not accepting critic even when it's due.

This said, it's mental. If the organization wants to truly help this soon to be 10 year veteran QB and elevate the team as well, challenge is resolve - don't pander to his comfort-zone. He performs better in that role and so does the rest of the team.

Brady didn't give up any of his salary. He still got every dollar in his contract, just through different methods that didn't count against the cap.

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, RaineV1 said:

Brady didn't give up any of his salary. He still got every dollar in his contract, just through different methods that didn't count against the cap.

Source?

[BmoreBird22]

10 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

game film speaks much louder than what we as fans see. Even watching all 22 angles as fans doesn't compare to what these coaches and players see when watching film. 

You and I have had the not running the ball enough convo and i've said you were 100% right in our talks. However we have to get to the bottom of exactly what's going on. The Ravens are sold out to running the WCO and unless your name is Kubiak more often than not you're gonna throw the ball considerably more than you run it in the WCO. That's just the way it is. The WCO by design spreads the defense horizontally with the passing game and using the run off of it. I'm sure you already know this, just saying. So those dink and dunk passes are here to stay because they are an extension of the run game. I don't think we see a average more than about 26 attempts per game over the course of the season. Which means Flacco will still throw 38-41 times per game. If we look at the numbers over Marty's 10 games that's about how they average out. 
So now knowing that this is probably the play distribution we'll next season, the question becomes, how do we get more out of the running game. Honestly I think the way you improve the running game and have even more attempts is to improve the passing game. The WCO offense is more of a precision offense and the Ravens passing game was anything but, from Flacco to the WRs, to the Oline. If the Ravens can improve on those 5-7 yard precision routes designed to keep the offense ahead of the sticks, I think we'll see more rushing attempts because the Ravens will produce more 1st downs and improving the precision helps in the redzone so scoring will improve as well. Also finding a few playmakers that can not only run those precised routes but make something happen after would be great. I'm looking at Perriman and Camp to be those guys next and they both have work to do.

Despite the Eagles game, I think the Ravens run the ball more with a lead late in games. However that aggressive nature ain't going nowhere so expect to continue seeing the offense try to put teams away midway through the 4th quarter with a 10-14 point lead.  

I do not view the check-downs as an extension of the running game. They're meant to be exactly what the name implies- a check down when no other passing option is open. If we're talking screens, swing passes, wheel routes, etc., then sure, I can see it being an extension of the running game. We didn't see that, though. What we saw was little dump offs over the middle that are a last resort for your passing game.

I had to look up what teams ran the WCO, but I found this- Bills (2), 49ers (4), Bengals (9), Eagles, (10), Raiders (11), Falcons (12), Chiefs (14), Broncos (15), Colts (16). Nine teams in the top half of the league run a WCO and were in the top half of rushing attempts. Four ranked in the top 10. Hell, the Ravens were behind the Packers and their WR converted to RB in rushing attempts. That's sad.

Also, as a side note, NE actually passed the ball only 55% of the time and ran 45% of the time. That's nuts for a team that's viewed as all Brady.

Anyway, back on track. Baltimore actually ranked dead last in the NFL in pass to run ratio. Lower number meaning they ran the ball more, here are some WCO's and their ranks. Bills (31), 49ers (29), Bengals (23), Falcons (22), Chiefs (20), Oakland (19), Eagles (18), Denver (17). That's an even eight in the top half of run percentage plays and it looks like another four in the top 10. All of those teams listed were about 59% pass:41% run or closer to 50%:50%. 

Clearly there's a good chance to run the ball and still be able to have a very efficient passing game (Falcons, Bengals, Raiders, Colts). It doesn't have to be exclusive, and in the case of teams like the Falcons, it probably aided in one of the most proficient seasons ever by a quarterback.

The Ravens ran the ball pretty well as the season wore on. Dixon really hit a groove and West seemed to break off longer runs more consistently in the second half of the season. The Ravens just absolutely chose to not run the ball.

[Purple_City39]

10 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Source?

Is this about Tom's recent restructure?  If so

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/tom-bradys-new-contract-protects-him-from-deflategate-suspension/

His "base salary" dropped and the cap hit dropped, but he received a 30M bonus if I'm not mistaken and since the salary itself dropped, he ended up saving 2M since there was less to take away during his suspension.  Brady's been doing cheap restructures for awhile now that never actually reduce the actual cash he gets, they just manipulate the salary cap hits

[rmcjacket23]

7 minutes ago, Purple_City39 said:

Is this about Tom's recent restructure?  If so

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/tom-bradys-new-contract-protects-him-from-deflategate-suspension/

His "base salary" dropped and the cap hit dropped, but he received a 30M bonus if I'm not mistaken and since the salary itself dropped, he ended up saving 2M since there was less to take away during his suspension.  Brady's been doing cheap restructures for awhile now that never actually reduce the actual cash he gets, they just manipulate the salary cap hits

I was referring to his claim of this:

"He still got every dollar in his contract, just through different methods that didn't count against the cap". 

If he means that Tom is manipulating his compensation to affect a single year of cap impact, then yes I agree. Him converting his salary to a bonus is an example of this. 

But in the long run that doesn't matter, because every dime he gets paid will count against the salary cap and one point or another. Just a question of when.

[Purple_City39]

Oh then you're right.  Every dime paid to a player will eventually count against the cap.  No way to avoid that

[Ravenseconbeast]

11 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

What's funny is that Harbaugh fired Trestman because he wanted to run the ball more, here comes Marty and he has one of the worst first half runs in the league. Thing is, Marty has always featured pass heavy offenses and has a history of negating the run when it's effective, now that wasn't totally the case this season but there were plenty of times where the Ravens should have took the run and decided to pass. 

I don't think he deserves a big pass because it just didn't make this offense that much better, it was still bad, don't think the improvements were too drastic to keep him. 

Harbaugh is going into next season on thin ice, have a bad year or miss the playoffs again and that might be his job right there, I just hope Sean Payton is there when that time arrives. 

John Harbaugh is a much better HC than Sean Payton.   I understand your frustration keeping Marty.   But give me a break...Harbaugh is one of the best HC in the NFL. Besides Bill, I can't name another coach that is more highly regarded than Harbaugh.   

You are a fool if you think Sean Patyon without Drew Brees, and working with Joe Flacco will replicate the same success he had with Brees.   

[rmw10]

8 minutes ago, Ravenseconbeast said:

John Harbaugh is a much better HC than Sean Payton.   I understand your frustration keeping Marty.   But give me a break...Harbaugh is one of the best HC in the NFL. Besides Bill, I can't name another coach that is more highly regarded than Harbaugh.   

You are a fool if you think Sean Patyon without Drew Brees, and working with Joe Flacco will replicate the same success he had with Brees.   

Anything to take a shot at Flacco...

Edited January 4 by rmw10

[The Mom Gene]

1 minute ago, rmw10 said:

Any thing to take a shot at Flacco...

I think he was simply taking up for Harbaugh.  Which I agree with him on.  There's a reason that Payton is on the hotseat.  He's done no better than Harbs as the coach for the Saints.  Their defense is a whole lot worst than ours.  My nephew plays for them; and was set to start at Safety and tore his ACL in the first game. I'm much rather have Harbaugh.

[rmw10]

1 minute ago, The Mom Gene said:

I think he was simply taking up for Harbaugh.  Which I agree with him on.  There's a reason that Payton is on the hotseat.  He's done no better than Harbs as the coach for the Saints.  Their defense is a whole lot worst than ours.  My nephew plays for them; and was set to start at Safety and tore his ACL in the first game. I'm much rather have Harbaugh.

Oh I agree that he was largely sticking up for Harbaugh, but there's always a little shot at Flacco hidden somewhere.

[RaineV1]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Source?

Quote

On top of orchestrating four Super Bowl runs, Brady has gifted the Patriots boatloads of financial flexibility in recent years. The first contract restructure came in March 2012, when Brady cut his base salary from $5.75 million to $975,000. The difference between Brady's original base salary and $6 million roster bonus plus a little bit extra was converted into a nearly $11 million signing bonus that would be spread over the remaining two years of his contract, which he had signed in 2010. This dropped Brady's cap number by more than $7 million for 2012.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexreimer/2015/10/02/tom-brady-contract-is-the-biggest-bargain-in-sports/#3ae55dab718d

He got his money in signing bonuses, which don't count against the cap.

Another article on how his restructuring contracts work: http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots_nfl/the_blitz/2014/12/source_tom_brady_restructures_deal_to_help_patriots_free_up

Quote

To summarize, Brady will still earn the $24 million (or, $27 million as it's now constructed) as long as he is on the team through 2017. He did not give any money back. He simply allowed the Patriots to spend cash more freely.

 

Edited January 4 by RaineV1

[rmw10]

4 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexreimer/2015/10/02/tom-brady-contract-is-the-biggest-bargain-in-sports/#3ae55dab718d

He got his money in signing bonuses, which don't count against the cap.

Another article on how his restructuring contracts work: http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots_nfl/the_blitz/2014/12/source_tom_brady_restructures_deal_to_help_patriots_free_up

 

Signing bonuses absolutely do count against the cap.  That's the exact reason why we talk about dead money.  Those signing bonuses are guaranteed dollars that get prorated over the life of the contract, up to 5 years.

[Rav'n Maniac]

9 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Signing bonuses absolutely do count against the cap.  That's the exact reason why we talk about dead money.  Those signing bonuses are guaranteed dollars that get prorated over the life of the contract, up to 5 years.

Agreed. People just can't seem to grasp that signing bonuses are fixed costs associated with signing a contract and although it's not a true part of the players salary, it still has to be accounted for in the cap.

[Tank 92]

2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Ask and you shall receive:

 

I could use a new boat.  38' Sea Ray will do.  Thanks!

[Tank 92]

1 hour ago, rmw10 said:

Anything to take a shot at Flacco...

That's his game. The Flacconator.  lol

[rmcjacket23]

44 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexreimer/2015/10/02/tom-brady-contract-is-the-biggest-bargain-in-sports/#3ae55dab718d

He got his money in signing bonuses, which don't count against the cap.

Another article on how his restructuring contracts work: http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots_nfl/the_blitz/2014/12/source_tom_brady_restructures_deal_to_help_patriots_free_up

 

Signing bonuses do count against the cap... they are just spread out over the life of the deal or however the team chooses to do it.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-england-patriots/tom-brady-4619/

Note that in 2018 and 2019, his cap hits are $22M, despite the fact that his compensation for those years (salary) is only $14M. When cap hit > current year compensation, it means that the cap hit includes prorated portions of bonuses.

Most contracts are structured this way. Tom's not doing anything most teams don't do with a lot of players.

[AsianRice]

Harbs said marty isn't the problem; it's the o-line, QB, and WRs.  Then, how Kubiak takes bunch of street WR and RB to top 10 offense?

 

Harbs even said he needs more playmakers on the offensive side of the ball, which is true, but that won't solve any of the horrific playcallings...

 

I don't know what Harbs sees that us fans don't see?

[January J]

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I do not view the check-downs as an extension of the running game. They're meant to be exactly what the name implies- a check down when no other passing option is open. If we're talking screens, swing passes, wheel routes, etc., then sure, I can see it being an extension of the running game. We didn't see that, though. What we saw was little dump offs over the middle that are a last resort for your passing game.

I had to look up what teams ran the WCO, but I found this- Bills (2), 49ers (4), Bengals (9), Eagles, (10), Raiders (11), Falcons (12), Chiefs (14), Broncos (15), Colts (16). Nine teams in the top half of the league run a WCO and were in the top half of rushing attempts. Four ranked in the top 10. Hell, the Ravens were behind the Packers and their WR converted to RB in rushing attempts. That's sad.

Also, as a side note, NE actually passed the ball only 55% of the time and ran 45% of the time. That's nuts for a team that's viewed as all Brady.

Anyway, back on track. Baltimore actually ranked dead last in the NFL in pass to run ratio. Lower number meaning they ran the ball more, here are some WCO's and their ranks. Bills (31), 49ers (29), Bengals (23), Falcons (22), Chiefs (20), Oakland (19), Eagles (18), Denver (17). That's an even eight in the top half of run percentage plays and it looks like another four in the top 10. All of those teams listed were about 59% pass:41% run or closer to 50%:50%. 

Clearly there's a good chance to run the ball and still be able to have a very efficient passing game (Falcons, Bengals, Raiders, Colts). It doesn't have to be exclusive, and in the case of teams like the Falcons, it probably aided in one of the most proficient seasons ever by a quarterback.

The Ravens ran the ball pretty well as the season wore on. Dixon really hit a groove and West seemed to break off longer runs more consistently in the second half of the season. The Ravens just absolutely chose to not run the ball.

That's the way I see it. Couldn't agree more.

I also want to get the official number of games Flacco has won as opposed to losing when having under 35 pass attempts throughout his entire career. I guarantee you its a big difference.

[Purple_City39]

18 minutes ago, AsianRice said:

Harbs said marty isn't the problem; it's the o-line, QB, and WRs.  Then, how Kubiak takes bunch of street WR and RB to top 10 offense?

 

Harbs even said he needs more playmakers on the offensive side of the ball, which is true, but that won't solve any of the horrific playcallings...

 

I don't know what Harbs sees that us fans don't see?

IMO, Harbaugh is 100% right.  The o-line couldn't open up running lanes and struggled at times to protect the QB.  I don't care who your coordinator is, run plays won't work if the o-line can't run block and all passing plays need to be quick if they can't pass block.

The QB issues don't need discussing.  We all saw it.

The WRs struggled getting open all season.  They also dropped a good amount of passes as a unit.

I don't know what "street" WR Kubiak had.  Torrey and Steve were his top two with Aiken his #3 (just like he was this season behind Steve and Mike).  If Forsett was the street RB (very good career rushing average per attempt even before Baltimore) then surely West and a rookie weren't better options on paper

[cwfRaven]

1 hour ago, The Mom Gene said:

I think he was simply taking up for Harbaugh.  Which I agree with him on.  There's a reason that Payton is on the hotseat.  He's done no better than Harbs as the coach for the Saints.  Their defense is a whole lot worst than ours.  My nephew plays for them; and was set to start at Safety and tore his ACL in the first game. I'm much rather have Harbaugh.

Wow, rough break. I know it happens, but hope he recovers well and is back at it next year.

[RavensFanMania]

9 hours ago, ellicottraven said:

Didn't think about Hester, but, totally agree.I thought it was among the most comprehensive article encapsulating our season and the Ravens moving forward.

Where is this article

[RavensFanMania]

8 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I would like to see flacco with 4 decent targets and no "very good" or "security blanket" targets. 

He always plays best when he can spread the ball around. Since pitta returned he hasn't been doing that, he's been getting tunnel vision with pitta. I think for Joe to get back to being joe, oddly enough, we gotta get rid of his most familiar target. 

He played his best when pitta was playing great and making the tough catches he needed to, boldin was doing the same, and torrey was there for the big play and he was being schemed as the primary target for big plays. He had no reason to stare one guy down and try to force feed because everyone was playing well and Joe had chemistry with them. 

Without pitta and sss, I think we could see a new Joe. As crazy as it sounds. We aren't as deficient as we were in 2013, so we could actually see him spread the ball around and do better.

This doesn't sound crazy at all.  As a matter of fact I've been thinking about this for some time now.  Look at Detroit without Calvin Johnson.  Stafford wasn't as reliant on him as the guy.  He spread the ball around a lot more.

[DomMcRaven]

52 minutes ago, RavensFanMania said:

Where is this article

Here:

http://russellstreetreport.com/2017/01/03/the-good-bad-ugly-and-the-megan-fox/ravens-get-better/