Marty stays...fixing the offense heading into 2017

[Moderator 3]

15 minutes ago, ravens rule said:

Please find a qb coach

They're already interviewing.

[ellicottraven]

Just now, Moderator 3 said:

They're already interviewing.

I know who it'll be. Greg Roman. John defers to Jim on QB coaches I'm near certain and that is the guy who'll be the QB coach.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

2 minutes ago, Moderator 3 said:

They're already interviewing.

To me - this is more important than an OC change.

Joe needs a strong OC coach.

[Rav'n Maniac]

2 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

Welp, can't wait for Flacco to lead the league in attempts again next year

Yeah, if we can increase our TOP that will allow him to break into the 700's or even higher.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

12 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I would disagree that's what makes him great.  It's arguably his biggest downfall.

It's what all great leaders do.

You could argue that he hasnt trust or found the right guys recently - but to say that characteristic itself has been his downfall is silly, imo.

[rmw10]

6 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

The thing is you can't commit to the run if your line can't run block. You can't "dive deeper" into the playbook if your receivers can't run the routes and be depended upon to catch the ball. For me those are the issues that need to be fixed to open up the playbook, not changing the OC.

 

The run game wasn't successful early on, but it was largely successful during Marty's time as OC.  He just didn't use his RBs.

[rmw10]

2 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

It's what all great leaders do.

You could argue that he hasnt trust or found the right guys recently - but to say that characteristic itself has been his downfall is silly, imo.

If you're talking about that trait itself, then yes, I agree.  The issue with Harbaugh is him putting trust in the same things over and over again with little success.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

No one like Cam as a coordinator but at least with consistency we were really good for 5 years.

Everyone saying this insanity catch phrase as if it applies to keeping Marty - when in reality, the repetition of stupidity would be to again scape goat the OC and fire him.... having to start from scratch again with someone brand new (what we've done every offseason since winning the SB).

 

I mean - we all like to laugh at the Browns and blame their lack of commitment to a plan, and the QB/coaching carousel that goes on there as a main reason for their problems... but then get the pitchforks out when our team wont do the same.

 

Have at it everyone. I'll be back when emotions die down and sanity is restored around here.

[BmoreBird22]

6 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

The thing is you can't commit to the run if your line can't run block. You can't "dive deeper" into the playbook if your receivers can't run the routes and be depended upon to catch the ball. For me those are the issues that need to be fixed to open up the playbook, not changing the OC.

Once Stanley got healthy, the line really took off. Simply solidifying that left side of the line with a healthy Stanley did absolute wonders for the blocking. I would venture to say the Ravens were a top 10 blocking unit when Stanley got healthy. After all, they finished with a healthy 4.0 YPC in the running game.

And you can absolutely scheme players open.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Just now, rmw10 said:

If you're talking about that trait itself, then yes, I agree.  The issue with Harbaugh is him putting trust in the same things over and over again with little success.

Exactly - like trusting that changing OC every year will fix the offense.

[Moderator 3]

If they can "fix" the run game, then play-action comes back.  We can succeed with that.

[Ravensfan23]

 I get all the backlash about this move coming off the season the team just had, but imo coaches can only do so much. These players have to do some soul searching this off-season and be honest with themselves. Marty didn't put Zuttah and Ducasse in position to have so many penalties. Marty isn't the guy out there not getting separation. Now does scheme have a lot to do with it yes, but I've seen plenty of times where SSS, Aiken and Pitta were matched up with LBs in 3rd situations and couldn't win. I've seen Dixon and West miss blitz pickups. How many throws that should have been made did we see Flacco miss? 

@rmw10 I agree that situational football has to improve. That's all Marty, but the discipline of the offense needs to improve. The effort needs to improve. Pitta just looked disinterested in blocking at all. That already puts you in a disadvantage in the run game. 

Marty needs to be consumed with improving this offense, but these players better do their part as well. 

[rmw10]

2 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Exactly - like trusting that changing OC every year will fix the offense.

I think that's fair as well, but when it's clear something isn't working...

The same way you can say changing the OC doesn't work you can say that it's clear the same type of OC over and over again isn't working.

[usmccharles]

22 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

Maybe not a popular opinion, but I like it. You can't just keep starting over every year hoping to improve. The best have continuity within their ranks and that's what breeds consistent success. 

There were several obvious issues that hurt the offense and limited the playbook, fixing those will now be the priority. Get them fixed and it will open up the playbook. 

Marty and Joe seem to have a good rapport and I'm excited to see what they can accomplish after having a full off season to plan. 

Honestly im kind of with you.  I just remember how many people were saying they wanted a new OC brought in. At least Marty will have time to do his own thing. 

[ravefan52]

Only the ravens smh. Wonder who'll take over for him halfway through next year

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

2 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

If you're talking about that trait itself, then yes, I agree.  The issue with Harbaugh is him putting trust in the same things over and over again with little success.

Yes - thats what i was saying. That trait of his, in itself, is what has lead to his greatest successes as a coach. Finding the right staff around him and then trusting them to do their jobs without his interference.

 

Marty put together a great game plan against the Dolphins and the Steelers especially. I expect them to sit down and analyze what worked and why ( a commitment to the run game especially) and look to build on that. Plus, with an entire offseason I expect to see a more realistic version of what Marty's offense is.

I mean, even something as simple as what you call a play - with Trestmans playbook Marty's gotta have his play menu pre-selected. With his own, if theres that situation in a game, in a big moment, where hes got that play in the back of his mind - even if it wasnt apart of the rehearsed game plan or pre-selected plays - he can pull it out in a second and call it. And the players know it bc they know his verbiage and practiced his offense in the offseason for months.

He iddnt have that luxury. Call it an excuse or whatever you want... but an NFL offense is a complicated thing and each offense is like learning a foreign language. Yes, in a WCO a lot of the terminology is similar, but can almost make it more difficult as minor little nuances between to OC's can mean totally different things.

 

It's not popular and you can say Marty as OC hasnt worked... but we dont know that. Changing OC's every years definitely hasnt worked other than 1 instance.

The QB and his best friend are on board. That matters. It matters a great deal.

[BmoreBird22]

12 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Ok. Then why all the "learning a new offense' verbiage pre-season when Trestman came on board? We were in a WCO with Kubes. What was there to learn?

The verbiage similar, but there is a ton different from one WCO to the other. Route concepts, play design, play progression, etc...

Two WCO may use the same routes, but not necessarily in the same progressions or used in the same combinations.

And great if Marty digs deeper to find new plays... what does that do if the players didnt practice them in the offseason? They may know generally how to run the play, but its not going to be effective if the timing and comfort isnt there.

And a couple days mid-week isnt enough to build that. its just not.

Verbiage refers to what they may call different route concepts or how they'll call out plays/signals during a no huddle/hurry up offense, the audibles they want to use. That's ALL something that Marty should have been learning as the QB coach. All the coaches should know the signals/calls to be able to relay them if needed.

Play design and route concepts are largely the exact same from one WCO to the other. There may be a few wrinkles, but they're all largely the same. 

There's zero chance that the team didn't practice a particular play in the offseason. I mean, hell, they can practice it during the bye if it's really that big of an issue, but it wouldn't be because they'll have practiced every single play. But let me give you this example for how it's not entirely difficult to learn a new play here and there.

Against the 49ers, the Packers (WCO) ran a sluggo inside with Cobb that ended up going for a touchdown. The Ravens (Air Coryell) used that exact same play and scored on that exact same play agains the 49ers. It was Boldin's touchdown.

I think people get very caught up in this idea that he needs to implement his own plays or his offense as a way to get hopeful that it was just a fluke season and Marty will definitely improve, like how Trestman was supposed to in 2015. 

Fact is, none of this excuses his poor run-pass ratio or his situational play calling. 

Also, no one can explain to me how Caldwell basically changed the way the Ravens operated their offense (they went from being a team that mostly used the boundary and used the middle for check-downs to being a team that operated over the middle of the field with Boldin and Pitta) in just two short weeks when he had never called plays before. How does that happen that Pitta and Boldin go from running probably 80% of their routes to the boundary to probably 80% over the middle if it's so difficult to dig into the playbook and use the other plays that are in there? 

[rmw10]

1 minute ago, Ravensfan23 said:

 I get all the backlash about this move coming off the season the team just had, but imo coaches can only do so much. These players have to do some soul searching this off-season and be honest with themselves. Marty didn't put Zuttah and Ducasse in position to have so many penalties. Marty isn't the guy out there not getting separation. Now does scheme have a lot to do with it yes, but I've seen plenty of times where SSS, Aiken and Pitta were matched up with LBs in 3rd situations and couldn't win. I've seen Dixon and West miss blitz pickups. How many throws that should have been made did we see Flacco miss? 

@rmw10 I agree that situational football has to improve. That's all Marty, but the discipline of the offense needs to improve. The effort needs to improve. Pitta just looked disinterested in blocking at all. That already puts you in a disadvantage in the run game. 

Marty needs to be consumed with improving this offense, but these players better do their part as well. 

I can agree with that.  I've always been one to pin blame on players much more than the coaches.  Marty isn't out there making the rookie mistakes at QB.  Marty isn't out there whiffing on the blocks.  Marty isn't out there running poor routes.  That's on the players and the execution.

With that being said, Marty didn't do them any favors either.  So many drives stalled because of stupid decisions and play calls.

I think my biggest issue with Marty was that Patriots game.  That was the single worst offensive game plan I've seen in my time of watching and understanding football.  It was so outdated and no adjustments were made.  You could consistently see shades of that game plan in the other games.  The Patriots game was just that pit of awfulness.

[BmoreBird22]

9 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

The run game wasn't successful early on, but it was largely successful during Marty's time as OC.  He just didn't use his RBs.

It's not that the Ravens couldn't run the ball; they just flat out chose not to and that's very disturbing.

[rmw10]

3 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Yes - thats what i was saying. That trait of his, in itself, is what has lead to his greatest successes as a coach. Finding the right staff around him and then trusting them to do their jobs without his interference.

 

Marty put together a great game plan against the Dolphins and the Steelers especially. I expect them to sit down and analyze what worked and why ( a commitment to the run game especially) and look to build on that. Plus, with an entire offseason I expect to see a more realistic version of what Marty's offense is.

I mean, even something as simple as what you call a play - with Trestmans playbook Marty's gotta have his play menu pre-selected. With his own, if theres that situation in a game, in a big moment, where hes got that play in the back of his mind - even if it wasnt apart of the rehearsed game plan or pre-selected plays - he can pull it out in a second and call it. And the players know it bc they know his verbiage and practiced his offense in the offseason for months.

He iddnt have that luxury. Call it an excuse or whatever you want... but an NFL offense is a complicated thing and each offense is like learning a foreign language. Yes, in a WCO a lot of the terminology is similar, but can almost make it more difficult as minor little nuances between to OC's can mean totally different things.

 

It's not popular and you can say Marty as OC hasnt worked... but we dont know that. Changing OC's every years definitely hasnt worked other than 1 instance.

The QB and his best friend are on board. That matters. It matters a great deal.

I won't address everything because it will largely just turn into a circle of conversation, but my main issue is that we wanted consistency, and chose mediocrity to do it.  I've fine with consistency, but you don't just settle on a guy for the sake of getting it.  They settled.  They didn't even consider other options, and that's what makes me angry.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

1 minute ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Verbiage refers to what they may call different route concepts or how they'll call out plays/signals during a no huddle/hurry up offense, the audibles they want to use. That's ALL something that Marty should have been learning as the QB coach. All the coaches should know the signals/calls to be able to relay them if needed.

Play design and route concepts are largely the exact same from one WCO to the other. There may be a few wrinkles, but they're all largely the same. 

There's zero chance that the team didn't practice a particular play in the offseason. I mean, hell, they can practice it during the bye if it's really that big of an issue, but it wouldn't be because they'll have practiced every single play. But let me give you this example for how it's not entirely difficult to learn a new play here and there.

Against the 49ers, the Packers (WCO) ran a sluggo inside with Cobb that ended up going for a touchdown. The Ravens (Air Coryell) used that exact same play and scored on that exact same play agains the 49ers. It was Boldin's touchdown.

I think people get very caught up in this idea that he needs to implement his own plays or his offense as a way to get hopeful that it was just a fluke season and Marty will definitely improve, like how Trestman was supposed to in 2015. 

Fact is, none of this excuses his poor run-pass ratio or his situational play calling. 

Also, no one can explain to me how Caldwell basically changed the way the Ravens operated their offense (they went from being a team that mostly used the boundary and used the middle for check-downs to being a team that operated over the middle of the field with Boldin and Pitta) in just two short weeks when he had never called plays before. How does that happen that Pitta and Boldin go from running probably 80% of their routes to the boundary to probably 80% over the middle if it's so difficult to dig into the playbook and use the other plays that are in there? 

I know what verbiage in an offense is. Im talking about all the articles quoting flacco, trestman, sss, pitta, etc... that discussed having to learn Trestmans offense.

 

And verbiage is a good topic. Bc while Marty should have learned Trestmans verbiage, its not 2nd nature like his own. So the ability to pull a specific play out of your bag of tricks, the perfect play for that unexpected situation, doesnt exist when calling another mans offense... if its not on your menu of plays that you planned during the week, its just darn near impossible. And its not like anyone, marty included, was in trestmans offense long enough to be an expert on it.

Marty, in his own offense, will have this ability. When its 4th and 1 from the 1, Marty will have his full register to go to. Even if its only a play theyve practice a few times, Marty can pull the entire book out at any moment, know the exact play call, and know that the players will know exaclty what he means. Without Trestmans playbook sitting there its not like Marty could crack it open and find what that plays called in Trestmans offense.

And that speaks to situational football. Yes you have an idea of what you like to do in certain situations, but that can change on a whim based on what the defense shows, trends in the game etc... So in your own offense its a lot easier to be better situationally bc you really have everything at your disposal.

[allblackraven]

Uh, someone please tell me I'm not awake yet...

 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

8 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Verbiage refers to what they may call different route concepts or how they'll call out plays/signals during a no huddle/hurry up offense, the audibles they want to use. That's ALL something that Marty should have been learning as the QB coach. All the coaches should know the signals/calls to be able to relay them if needed.

Play design and route concepts are largely the exact same from one WCO to the other. There may be a few wrinkles, but they're all largely the same. 

There's zero chance that the team didn't practice a particular play in the offseason. I mean, hell, they can practice it during the bye if it's really that big of an issue, but it wouldn't be because they'll have practiced every single play. But let me give you this example for how it's not entirely difficult to learn a new play here and there.

Against the 49ers, the Packers (WCO) ran a sluggo inside with Cobb that ended up going for a touchdown. The Ravens (Air Coryell) used that exact same play and scored on that exact same play agains the 49ers. It was Boldin's touchdown.

I think people get very caught up in this idea that he needs to implement his own plays or his offense as a way to get hopeful that it was just a fluke season and Marty will definitely improve, like how Trestman was supposed to in 2015. 

Fact is, none of this excuses his poor run-pass ratio or his situational play calling. 

Also, no one can explain to me how Caldwell basically changed the way the Ravens operated their offense (they went from being a team that mostly used the boundary and used the middle for check-downs to being a team that operated over the middle of the field with Boldin and Pitta) in just two short weeks when he had never called plays before. How does that happen that Pitta and Boldin go from running probably 80% of their routes to the boundary to probably 80% over the middle if it's so difficult to dig into the playbook and use the other plays that are in there? 

Probably bc Caldwell had no offense and didnt want or need to change anything. Tougher to teach an old dog new tricks. Marty knows what he wants, what he likes, what he calls things, and so its gonna be more difficult to use someone elses. Not saying he couldnt or shouldnt have done better.

But Caldwell, as a neutral observer with no experience plainly just looked at the situation, probably asked the players straight up - hey what do you think you should be doing - and then did it.

Heres the thing - it worked for one magical run. Thats it. Its not like Caldwell was some revelation and all it took was throwing the ball more over the middle. HE SUCKED the next year trying to do largely the same thing.

Edited January 3 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[Sunday QB]

1 hour ago, Florida Ravens Fan said:

Seriously Pissed right now. This decision will get Harbaugh fired next year if we fail to make the playoffs again. 

W

and the worst part is we have to sit through another season no run game and nothing but check downs. 

[Euterpe]

I'm looking forward to John Harbaugh's last season.  With Pees running the defense and Morningwig running the offense, Harbaugh should be talking with a real estate agent by early November 2017 at the latest.

Edited January 3 by Euterpe

[donkeyking64]

1 hour ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

It won't. We will probably continue to abandon the run. What we'd need to do is improve the oline but I don't think it will matter.

 

its honestly the worst decision we could have made. I have 0 faith in marty

indeed

[JO_75]

Sigh.......... 

Once again with upgrades available we decide to stay mediocre. Could try to get Norv, could try to get Mike McCoy, maybe some new RB or WR Coach, a fresh college position coach, etc. Yet we stay the course and once again fail to upgrade when we have the chance to. Harbs just laid the ground work for his final season with the team. 

Billick's last year was 2007, and it looks like 10 years later Harbaugh's last year will be 2017. 

[Rebel Raven]

Extremely dissapointed! However, Ill trust Harbaugh's decision and hope for the best. I do hope they add a couple new pieces to the offense though

[terrynjulia03]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Well, in their defense, that's not necessarily true.

We know Dean Pees can lead a defense that can win a SB and make the playoffs, so its not as if we won't win until we fire him, because we've won plenty with him.

And in a round about good way, fans have also now learned that firing your OC in the offseason or even midseason doesn't guarantee that you will start winning again either. Fans used the "fire the OC and we will start doing well again" crutch for too long after we fired Cam Cameron, and now that crutch is permanently broken and can't be used anymore.

So while I wouldn't have retained Marty, its certainly not a death blow to our 2017 outlook. As usual, the personnel on the field matters a whole lot more than the coaches on the sidelines, and they are always the one's who dictate the success or failure of a team.

Sure when he had 2 once in a lifetime players, and 2 or 3 more that were top 2 or 3 at their position. And we STILL collapsed in the 4th in many games, to include the SB. 

[donkeyking64]

48 minutes ago, Moderator 3 said:

If they can "fix" the run game, then play-action comes back.  We can succeed with that.

Is the run game broken?

I think we need a new center for sure, but how can the run game be broken if it isn't utilized?

2 guys that specialize in going deep (Perriman/Wallace) or at least 2 guys that have the ability to go over the top aren't given the opportunities to go over the top. Instead a chunk of pass plays originate from behind the line to gain. How many times in the last few weeks did you see that kind of pass?

I think it is an issue of the approach to offense as opposed to fixing this or that. You fix those things from week to week. And if we are saying we need a new running back or new center that's one thing....but I don't think that's what you're saying. I could be wrong. We all know that Vlad Ducasse is not a starting Right Guard. But that doesn't mean the blame or issue is the run game