Marty stays...fixing the offense heading into 2017

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

I hate being pessimistic... but I have no faith in Marty's situational football. I hate this. We're the eagles 2.0 now lol. And the only one that's a good thing is Castillo. Seriously? What gain does Harbaugh think we are making here?!?

[Ravensfan23]

11 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

And @Ravensfan23, you were right.  I wish you weren't, but you called it.  I certainly hope it turns out how you expect and now how I expect.

Yeah can't say I felt Marty was the best guy for the job, just wasn't sure there was a surefire guy out there better at this time. 

 

[ravens rule]

Please find a qb coach

[OUravensfan]

If we get better on the O-line and get a solid possession WR we will have a better offense next year, 0 doubts.

[darklight1216]

I have no faith in this decision. Marty looks like Trestman 2.0 which will likely mean he will get the can during next season forcing the team to scramble again. If they don't promote someone who can do a Caldwell (so to speak) this choice could end up costing Harbs his job.

[BmoreBird22]

4 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

It's not just the plays. It's the philosophy of what you call in what situations. What builds on to the next play. What hot route you want here and why. What the OC wants against a certain coverage... its a lot more that foundational building plan of how you want your players thinking based on what they see as an extension of the OC's philosophy that can be so different from one play caller to the next.

Plus there's the repetition in the offseason of certain plays and routes that are your go to's... that may be different from playcaller to playcaller.

 

Regardless of what it is - there's more to the differences between one WCO and another then just tendencies of the same exact plays being called... and more to a transition between two OC's than just which of these groups of plays you call.

Joe is going to (generally) run the play that is called, so that's a really poor excuse. Marty has ELEVEN games, plus a bye week, to transition to "his philosophy" and call plays the way he wanted. Hell, even if he picked up Trestman's play calling sheet, he could have called games vastly different. 

In the offseason, you are practicing every single play in that playbook should the need ever arise to call a particular play. The players know each and every route and play in that playbook and are prepared to run it at any given time. There is no excuse for him to not call the game differently.

Again, look at Caldwell. He had literally three games to prepare and no bye week before the playoffs (not to mention his starters didn't all play in week 17), yet by the second game of his offensive coordinator tenure, the offense looked like an entirely new animal. They were utilizing the middle of the field and Caldwell had Joe moving the pocket and getting off his spot. Why can Caldwell do that in two weeks, but Marty needs an entire offseason? I mean, hell, Caldwell had never even called plays.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Look - what makes Harbs great, and what some may not like, is that he hires guys and then trusts them to do their job.

The organization has made Flacco the franchise guy for better or for worse. he and other offensive leaders came out before today and put their backing in Marty.

No other explanation is needed. If you're going to isolate your franchise player and his go to's, it's a bad decision. If Flacco thinks Marty's the guy he can make it work with - you trust those two to do the job.

He's never been a big meddler, or a big needing control guy. Maybe thatll get him fired? Who knows? But its not the wrong decision. Bringing in another OC and having your most important player not supporting the decision isnt a good look or a good decision either. Like it or not, but the team is invested in Flacco's success. He's a share holder if you will. And probably the biggest, most important share holder in the offense.

He needs to sign off on whatever decision was made. And he and his pal Pitta got out in front of this one and gave their endorsements.

[AsianRice]

4 minutes ago, nextgen_RavensFan said:

I do not understand how Marty is the entire issue with the offense. He did not make Joe throw the int's in the end zone and am thinking influences from Harbaugh have helped to abandon the run game. You have to admit that Harb's play calling has been very suspect and cost us games. I think if left to call the game without others 2 cents being added in he will be ok. Just needs to be able to trust Joe's decision making which is taking a big leap in faith as Joe has proven to be less than the sharpest tool in the shed.

If a ST coach calling plays, we are doomed......

 

[Darhk_Raven]

10 minutes ago, AsianRice said:

I don't think Marty is solving any of current offensive problems...

 

Kubiak was successful here in B-more cuz he brought with him a QB coach; Joe doesn't have one and it looks like he's losing his mechanics at some points of the season.

 

If we roll with Marty without a legitimate QB coach, 2017 is another disappointment season......

He mentioned interviewing a QB coach this week.

[BmoreBird22]

7 minutes ago, nextgen_RavensFan said:

I do not understand how Marty is the entire issue with the offense. He did not make Joe throw the int's in the end zone and am thinking influences from Harbaugh have helped to abandon the run game. You have to admit that Harb's play calling has been very suspect and cost us games. I think if left to call the game without others 2 cents being added in he will be ok. Just needs to be able to trust Joe's decision making which is taking a big leap in faith as Joe has proven to be less than the sharpest tool in the shed.

Harbs doesn't call plays, nor has he ever, and he largely fired Trestman with a desire to run the ball more, so I mean...

[Tank 92]

3 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Wow, should add a poll to this thread, cant imagine anyone here is happy about this. 

 

Maybe not a popular opinion, but I like it. You can't just keep starting over every year hoping to improve. The best have continuity within their ranks and that's what breeds consistent success. 

There were several obvious issues that hurt the offense and limited the playbook, fixing those will now be the priority. Get them fixed and it will open up the playbook. 

Marty and Joe seem to have a good rapport and I'm excited to see what they can accomplish after having a full off season to plan. 

 

[Rav'n Maniac]

You can't sugar coat it as everyone knows what the definition of insanity is. How many times is Harbs going to make the same mistakes. He was mistaken to keep Cam as long as he did. He was mistaken to bring Caldwell back in 2013, a coach that had little offensive background. He was mistaken to bring Trestman in to begin with or back this season and he's making the same mistake again with Marty.

[BmoreBird22]

8 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Agreed entirely.  I think too many people are using the he didn't have time to implement his playbook excuse.

1.  As you said, route concepts are generally the same from WCO playbook to another WCO playbook.  There are changes but not to the point where we're going to see a drastically different offensive game plan next year.

It's probably the worst excuse that I consistently see. The playbook is so large and he had ample time (12 weeks) to really dig in there and pull out other plays and call the game differently, but he didn't. I don't want to hear an excuse about needing an offseason when Caldwell had the offense looking entirely different by week two of calling plays for the first time ever.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

Joe is going to (generally) run the play that is called, so that's a really poor excuse. Marty has ELEVEN games, plus a bye week, to transition to "his philosophy" and call plays the way he wanted. Hell, even if he picked up Trestman's play calling sheet, he could have called games vastly different. 

In the offseason, you are practicing every single play in that playbook should the need ever arise to call a particular play. The players know each and every route and play in that playbook and are prepared to run it at any given time. There is no excuse for him to not call the game differently.

Again, look at Caldwell. He had literally three games to prepare and no bye week before the playoffs (not to mention his starters didn't all play in week 17), yet by the second game of his offensive coordinator tenure, the offense looked like an entirely new animal. They were utilizing the middle of the field and Caldwell had Joe moving the pocket and getting off his spot. Why can Caldwell do that in two weeks, but Marty needs an entire offseason? I mean, hell, Caldwell had never even called plays.

You dont transition anything during a game week. HE HAD ONE WEEK to transition anything he wanted to.

In a game week  you take the offense you have and manipulate whats there to make a plan to attack said team. You dont change anything. You build everything youre gonna use in the offseason.

It's part of the reason our offense sucks. We've change coordinators so darn often that none can actually implement a full offfense. Its gotta be digestable since its new for everyone. Then hes gone and the new guy comes in.

There isnt enough time in a game week to be implementing or learning anything new. Get out of here with that.

[jimmypowder]

Things went downhill fast like I expected when Kubiak left for Denver . 

We need someone of Kubiak's ability as OC and I don't see it with Marty . 

Pees is a good DC until the 4th quarter where we have lost more games with leads than at any time in Ravens history . He is not the answer either . 

No playoffs next year and John , Marty and Dean will all be gone , guaranteed . 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Just now, Rav'n Maniac said:

You can't sugar coat it as everyone knows what the definition of insanity is. How many times is Harbs going to make the same mistakes. He was mistaken to keep Cam as long as he did. He was mistaken to bring Caldwell back in 2013, a coach that had little offensive background. He was mistaken to bring Trestman in to begin with or back this season and he's making the same mistake again with Marty.

Exactly. And as we've seen... firing or the OC leaving every year since the SB run hasnt worked.

[bMore Heathen]

This sucks

[rmw10]

2 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Look - what makes Harbs great, and what some may not like, is that he hires guys and then trusts them to do their job.

The organization has made Flacco the franchise guy for better or for worse. he and other offensive leaders came out before today and put their backing in Marty.

No other explanation is needed. If you're going to isolate your franchise player and his go to's, it's a bad decision. If Flacco thinks Marty's the guy he can make it work with - you trust those two to do the job.

He's never been a big meddler, or a big needing control guy. Maybe thatll get him fired? Who knows? But its not the wrong decision. Bringing in another OC and having your most important player not supporting the decision isnt a good look or a good decision either. Like it or not, but the team is invested in Flacco's success. He's a share holder if you will. And probably the biggest, most important share holder in the offense.

He needs to sign off on whatever decision was made. And he and his pal Pitta got out in front of this one and gave their endorsements.

I would disagree that's what makes him great.  It's arguably his biggest downfall.

[Ravenseconbeast]

25 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I've never been one to blame coaching, but retaining Marty is an awful decision that I believe will end up costing Harbaugh his job this time next year.  You can point to all of the stats that you want in regards to the improved PPG under Marty, but it's the situational football that makes him awful.  How many times are we going to pass the ball in obvious running situations?  How many times are we going to throw a screen pass on 3rd and 10 (because we threw 2 incomplete passes prior)?  Unless Marty has something drastically different than what we've seen so far, some heads are going to roll next year.

Have you considered the chance of Ravens actually getting a 'great OC'?

It might be lower than Browns being a playoff contenders next year.

We basically fired 3 OCs(besides Kube) starting from Cam Cameron in embarassing fashion.

What makes you think a OC will:

1) work with a now 10year vet QB that is regressing

2) fanbase that will always shift the blame on OC

3)HC that is more than willing to cut OC before season ends and believes QB can do no wrong

Whether you want to believe it or not, no sane OC wants to come here with that kind of leverage.

We have alot of coaches on staff that are well respected and well praised.  But when it comes to OC specifically? We hace some weird fetish to put him in the dumps faster than anyone else in the nfl. 

[ellicottraven]

Its the beginning of the end of 2017 season's prospects folks. Flacco will set the single season record for most pass attempts and have another 4000 yd season with Pitta leading the league with 100 catches for 500 yds.

Edited January 3 by ellicottraven

[BmoreBird22]

4 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

You dont transition anything during a game week. HE HAD ONE WEEK to transition anything he wanted to.

In a game week  you take the offense you have and manipulate whats there to make a plan to attack said team. You dont change anything. You build everything youre gonna use in the offseason.

It's part of the reason our offense sucks. We've change coordinators so darn often that none can actually implement a full offfense. Its gotta be digestable since its new for everyone. Then hes gone and the new guy comes in.

There isnt enough time in a game week to be implementing or learning anything new. Get out of here with that.

Except, the playbook is the exact same from WCO to WCO. There is no new offense to be learned. Every single play in that playbook has been practiced and learned by the players.

It was up to Marty to dive deeper into the playbook and call different plays or commit to the run. It's not like the playbook said, "Pass 65% of the time and run 35% of the time, making sure to have fewer first half rushing attempts than any other team." 

I don't think people here truly realize that most of the NFL will run the same plays; it's just how they're called and when they're called.

I used the transition because if he really had a way of wanting to call his game (like when to implement a pass play and when to implement a running play, which is not difficult), he had 12 weeks to figure it out, including a bye week.

Edited January 3 by BmoreBird22

[AsianRice]

3 minutes ago, jimmypowder said:

Things went downhill fast like I expected when Kubiak left for Denver . 

We need someone of Kubiak's ability as OC and I don't see it with Marty . 

Pees is a good DC until the 4th quarter where we have lost more games with leads than at any time in Ravens history . He is not the answer either . 

No playoffs next year and John , Marty and Dean will all be gone , guaranteed . 

what makes u think it is guaranteed? lol

 

Even we miss playoff next year, John is safe, but Marty will be gone; Dean may be forced to retire...

However, John's seat will be very very warm....

Edited January 3 by AsianRice

[BmoreBird22]

2 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I would disagree that's what makes him great.  It's arguably his biggest downfall.

I was going to say it hasn't made him great in except in 2012 and 2014.

[rmcjacket23]

23 minutes ago, Dr. Kelley said:

If you keep doing what you've always done, you're gonna get what you've always got.

 

Looks like we are missing the playoffs next year too

Well, in their defense, that's not necessarily true.

We know Dean Pees can lead a defense that can win a SB and make the playoffs, so its not as if we won't win until we fire him, because we've won plenty with him.

And in a round about good way, fans have also now learned that firing your OC in the offseason or even midseason doesn't guarantee that you will start winning again either. Fans used the "fire the OC and we will start doing well again" crutch for too long after we fired Cam Cameron, and now that crutch is permanently broken and can't be used anymore.

So while I wouldn't have retained Marty, its certainly not a death blow to our 2017 outlook. As usual, the personnel on the field matters a whole lot more than the coaches on the sidelines, and they are always the one's who dictate the success or failure of a team.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

Except, the playbook is the exact same from WCO to WCO. There is no new offense to be learned. Every single play in that playbook has been practiced and learned by the players.

It was up to Marty to dive deeper into the playbook and call different plays or commit to the run. It's not like the playbook said, "Pass 65% of the time and run 35% of the time, making sure to have fewer first half rushing attempts than any other team." 

I don't think people here truly realize that most of the NFL will run the same plays; it's just how they're called and when they're called.

Ok. Then why all the "learning a new offense' verbiage pre-season when Trestman came on board? We were in a WCO with Kubes. What was there to learn?

The verbiage similar, but there is a ton different from one WCO to the other. Route concepts, play design, play progression, etc...

Two WCO may use the same routes, but not necessarily in the same progressions or used in the same combinations.

And great if Marty digs deeper to find new plays... what does that do if the players didnt practice them in the offseason? They may know generally how to run the play, but its not going to be effective if the timing and comfort isnt there.

And a couple days mid-week isnt enough to build that. its just not.

[jimmypowder]

2 minutes ago, AsianRice said:

what makes u think it is guaranteed? lol

 

Even we miss playoff next year, John is safe, but Marty will be gone; Dean may be forced to retire...

I disagree . If we go 8-8 or worse , John is gone and a new head coach will be hired . 

[rmcjacket23]

2 minutes ago, Ravenseconbeast said:

Have you considered the chance of Ravens actually getting a 'great OC'?

It might be lower than Browns being a playoff contenders next year.

We basically fired 3 OCs(besides Kube) starting from Cam Cameron in embarassing fashion.

What makes you think a OC will:

1) work with a now 10year vet QB that is regressing

2) fanbase that will always shift the blame on OC

3)HC that is more than willing to cut OC before season ends and believes QB can do no wrong

Whether you want to believe it or not, no sane OC wants to come here with that kind of leverage.

We have alot of coaches on staff that are well respected and well praised.  But when it comes to OC specifically? We hace some weird fetish to put him in the dumps faster than anyone else in the nfl. 

Well apparently Kubiak and Trestman did, so either they are all of the sudden not sane OC's, or you're analogy just doesn't work.

Plus, there is a finite supply of said job's even available. Not every team is looking for a new OC. Its not like all of these OC's have 200 different places they can coach. If they want to be an OC in the NFL, there's AT BEST maybe a half dozen or so job openings and probably dozens of people who could realistically be chosen for those jobs. 

These kinds of coaches aren't really in a position to be super selective with who they go work for, unless they want to be an assistance instead of an OC, go coach in college, or not coach at all.

All just a simple supply and demand concept. There's more people looking for OC jobs than there are OC jobs available.

[AsianRice]

2 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Well, in their defense, that's not necessarily true.

We know Dean Pees can lead a defense that can win a SB and make the playoffs, so its not as if we won't win until we fire him, because we've won plenty with him.

And in a round about good way, fans have also now learned that firing your OC in the offseason or even midseason doesn't guarantee that you will start winning again either. Fans used the "fire the OC and we will start doing well again" crutch for too long after we fired Cam Cameron, and now that crutch is permanently broken and can't be used anymore.

So while I wouldn't have retained Marty, its certainly not a death blow to our 2017 outlook. As usual, the personnel on the field matters a whole lot more than the coaches on the sidelines, and they are always the one's who dictate the success or failure of a team.

Pees Smith Defense

 

Get him another shutdown CB to replace Jimmy, we will see top 5 defense from him....

[52520Andrew]

Welp, can't wait for Flacco to lead the league in attempts again next year

[Tank 92]

2 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Except, the playbook is the exact same from WCO to WCO. There is no new offense to be learned. Every single play in that playbook has been practiced and learned by the players.

It was up to Marty to dive deeper into the playbook and call different plays or commit to the run. It's not like the playbook said, "Pass 65% of the time and run 35% of the time, making sure to have fewer first half rushing attempts than any other team." 

I don't think people here truly realize that most of the NFL will run the same plays; it's just how they're called and when they're called.

The thing is you can't commit to the run if your line can't run block. You can't "dive deeper" into the playbook if your receivers can't run the routes and be depended upon to catch the ball. For me those are the issues that need to be fixed to open up the playbook, not changing the OC.