Marty stays...fixing the offense heading into 2017

[FlocksGottaFeed]

19 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

4. Are you kidding me? Seriously? I know Flacco had a down season and he'll probably get beat up all offseason until he performs well next season, but you can't be serious with this. Address his ego? What NFL player doesn't have a ego? I'm sorry but i want every single one of my players thinking they are the best at their position and giving their teammates that confidence as well. 

There are very few that are truly 'the best' at their positions.
The real challenge is working to make others acknowledge that you truly are one of the best at what you do.

Very good overall statement; however, I think you've missed my point on this one. The 1st question you have to ask is, "Did Marty improve Joe's play or not this season?" If you feel he has than we simply have a difference of opinion.

It's my opinion that he did not based on games coached. I was in 'Camp Marty' the entire time during his interim duties as OC because of the continuity and familiarity aspects of Joe and his relationship with the team. A mid-season change like bringing in someone else would have been too much, but a change is needed now.

Marty is not the answer. You believe he'll right the ship, but I see more of the same. He's no Kubiak - who had so much league-wide respect that demanded Joe's respect. On the other hand, Marty pretty much pandered to Joe's ego which hampered Joe's play and didn't challenge his resolve (examples: Pass to Run ratio especially when the run was abandoned while averaging good gains, allowing Joe to run too many short 'comfort-zone' pass plays for minimal gains and calling many plays that didn't highlight/maximize the strengths of the other skill-players based-on situational awareness.

Yes, every NFL player has an ego, but every NFL player should also not let ego get in the way of development. Joe's problem is not arm-strength, ball placement, the playbook, etc. It's mental. He's said on several occasions that he wants to be considered 'elite' and I truly want that for him, but it's not about what you say - it's what's displayed. There has been a noticeable regression since our last appearance in the AFC Championship. Marty should have been allowed to continue-on as a QB Coach after this season. He's not the type of guy who can turn our offense around nor elevate Joe.

My thoughts are really about the rest of the offense. The Dixen and West paring could be one of the best tandems in the league, our o-line could also be elite and with 2 of the fastest receivers in the league...? We'll let's just say it's not all about Joe's ego it's about the team. Marty coached to Joe's ego - not the unit.

[BmoreBird22]

7 hours ago, January J said:

That's the way I see it. Couldn't agree more.

I also want to get the official number of games Flacco has won as opposed to losing when having under 35 pass attempts throughout his entire career. I guarantee you its a big difference.

CSN-Mid Atlantic said since 2013, he's 17-6 with a 3-0 record in 2016.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

37 minutes ago, FlocksGottaFeed said:

There are very few that are truly 'the best' at their positions.
The real challenge is working to make others acknowledge that you truly are one of the best at what you do.

Very good overall statement; however, I think you've missed my point on this one. The 1st question you have to ask is, "Did Marty improve Joe's play or not this season?" If you feel he has than we simply have a difference of opinion.

It's my opinion that he did not based on games coached. I was in 'Camp Marty' the entire time during his interim duties as OC because of the continuity and familiarity aspects of Joe and his relationship with the team. A mid-season change like bringing in someone else would have been too much, but a change is needed now.

Marty is not the answer. You believe he'll right the ship, but I see more of the same. He's no Kubiak - who had so much league-wide respect that demanded Joe's respect. On the other hand, Marty pretty much pandered to Joe's ego which hampered Joe's play and didn't challenge his resolve (examples: Pass to Run ratio especially when the run was abandoned while averaging good gains, allowing Joe to run too many short 'comfort-zone' pass plays for minimal gains and calling many plays that didn't highlight/maximize the strengths of the other skill-players based-on situational awareness.

Yes, every NFL player has an ego, but every NFL player should also not let ego get in the way of development. Joe's problem is not arm-strength, ball placement, the playbook, etc. It's mental. He's said on several occasions that he wants to be considered 'elite' and I truly want that for him, but it's not about what you say - it's what's displayed. There has been a noticeable regression since our last appearance in the AFC Championship. Marty should have been allowed to continue-on as a QB Coach after this season. He's not the type of guy who can turn our offense around nor elevate Joe.

My thoughts are really about the rest of the offense. The Dixen and West paring could be one of the best tandems in the league, our o-line could also be elite and with 2 of the fastest receivers in the league...? We'll let's just say it's not all about Joe's ego it's about the team. Marty coached to Joe's ego - not the unit.

So you don't think Marty can elevate Joe but you think he should be the QB coach?

[FlocksGottaFeed]

9 hours ago, RaineV1 said:

Brady didn't give up any of his salary. He still got every dollar in his contract, just through different methods that didn't count against the cap.

Good point. I was 'Camp Marty' during the interim, but think he would have serve better back in his QBC role for Joe.

Firstly, nobody hates Brady as much as I do (who hasn't been committed, yet.). When I used "i.e. Brady..." as it relates to contracts it was not as if I didn't already know how those contracts go. I've detailed it several times before. I used that point knowing that all agents and franchise QBs and players have the power to influence their franchises to better their teams. When change is needed in-order for the team to succeed and ultimately elevate team direction they utilize it.

It's simple. They just say "Make it happen!" publicly. There's no money lost. There's just more trust, belief and resolve communicated to everyone else on the team. That's what leadership looks like. That's an open acknowledgement that this individual (Joe) would prefer his offensive unit to be considered 'elite' above all other things. The weird-thing about this is if you research when they stopped questioning if 'elite' QBs were actually elite - it was after the entire offensive unit was crowned first. 

More importantly to this topic: Marty offers our franchise QB Joe a comfort-zone of complacency. This will only result in mediocrity thinly masked in stats (i.e. Completion and Tight-end Records set recently) - not successful team outcomes and/or championships if this continues.

Pitta and Joe love the Marty decision, but does anyone else...really? Ask yourself: Is Joe or the rest of the offense better-off due to this? Why is Marty here as OC? This most likely can't be about OC 'continuity' (Admittedly, we don't historically do that. ). It can only be about a 'comfort-zone'. That doesn't win Super Bowls. 

Edited January 5 by FlocksGottaFeed
This most likely can't be about OC 'continuity'

[FlocksGottaFeed]

23 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

So you don't think Marty can elevate Joe but you think he should be the QB coach?

You can be a GREAT QB coach and never be an OC and be a part of a GREAT Offensive Team. Just saying.

[-Truth-]

I'm personally not overly thrilled with the move. For a team with our passing quantity, our outside routes may have benefited from a bit more variety. Taking the Dallas game as an example, roughly 11 of the 17 passing plays ran in the first half involved both outside receivers running the same route, most of which were double hitches and double nines. Kamar Aiken had the only double move in that span. Dallas was comfortable in press-man on the outside with a sprinkle of Cover 2 otherwise, and our outside WRs were unsurprisingly ineffective on those 11 plays, amassing 25 yards on 2 catches on 5 targets, one being a failed conversion against soft coverage on 3rd and long. For a team that quite literally led the league in passing attempts, it was an alarming issue and one that was sometimes seen too often throughout Mornhinweg's tenure as our OC this season. We're inviting corners to sit on the routes after the first break. It's part of the reason why we were 1st in passing attempts and 5th worst in yards per attempt.

In addition, and this is beating a dead horse at this point, but I hope that our balance takes a rapid shift from the previous few seasons. Joe Flacco finished 2nd to Drew Brees in attempts this year by a single throw, which he would've surpassed had he not sat for Ryan Mallett. Last season, he was on pace to finish 2nd to Philip Rivers by a single throw. In 3 of the last 4 seasons, Flacco's averaged over 40 attempts per game, and the results haven't been favorable. We're looking at 53 TDs to 49 INTs and a 6.4 YPA. That's not meant as a direct slight to our QB, especially since it's something that's happened just 6 times in the last 4 years. In-between those years lies a balanced 2014 where he had what may have been a career season. And yes, injuries, inconsistencies among skill positions/OL and unspectacular run blocking didn't help, but the most frustrating aspect of this year was the fact that we had two very capable runners and a mostly healthy OL down the stretch, yet we continued to heave the ball on first downs and attempted to dig ourselves out of holes on the following downs when the former ones ended in incompletions. It just wasn't a working formula and the lack of creativity didn't aid the situation. I'm obviously cheering for Mornhinweg to right the ship next season since his performance could significantly impact our standings next season, but I'm skeptical at this point. I hope I'm proven wrong.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

22 hours ago, donkeyking64 said:

Wow you went dissertation on me. After reading your response I will fall back on my disdain just a bit. After all, he did make the Jets look decent when he was OC there before coming to Baltimore as QB coach.

That said, the bolded part is where I'm still salty...or concerned with him about. If you're going to pass the ball 40 times, it shouldn't be fore 2 yards 20 of those times. Receiver catches the ball and if a man is close by he gets tackled for a 2 or 3 yd gain. *sigh* You know what I mean?

Perhaps it wasn't 50% of the time, but I saw that more times than I care to see in a game. And perhaps the Pitt game while it wasn't the very last game of the season, certain plays are etched in my memory.

If Joe can throw the deep ball, let's see some of those attempts frequently. When I saw that Breshad would be getting a lot of playing time, I thought that maybe Breshad would be on the left side with Mikey Fresh Wallace on the right. Or perhaps both of them lined up on the same side of the field where both go deep. <-----that forces the defense to go step for step with one of those guys or when they are on opposite sides of the field, the safety has to figure out where/who needs help over the top. That may sound pretty generic or "Fans just make statements like that without knowing in game circumstances" blah blah blah blah, but it's just a numbers game. Make them figure out who they have to cover. They can't cover everybody. This type of alignment or play had to have been in Trestmans playbook. Go deep down field to fast guys.

Is my thought process wrong on that? If not, we didn't really get that out of Marty. And when you got the 2 guys going deep, somebody ought to be underneath. And the thing with Torrey was if you threw the ball 3 times and the result was 0 catches, you were likely to get a PI 1 of 3 times. When I played they used to say the only defense against speed is PI

I don't think many of those 2 yd passes are by design. It's a combo of Joe going to his check down too quickly, protection not holding up long enough for the deeper routes to develop, or other receivers just not winning. 

Most of those were the last option in his progressions. 

And that's where I get back to using another mans offense. If Trestmans philosophy emphasizes this set of 100 plays and that's what the focus of offseason and weeks 1-7 were... but Marty doesn't like those plays and his play calling philosophy requires a majority of other plays, but the players aren't as well versed in them the execution is going to suffer. 

Receivers wont run the routes as crisply. Timing of the combination of routes isn't as crisp. Joe isn't as locked in on the timing and location of the progressions, etc...

So, do you call a game plan you don't believe in or do you use the parts of the guys playbook you prefer but that the players don't execute as well do to less preparation? It's lose-lose. 

 

The run game is a legitimate gripe. That I wholeheartedly agree with. But I think those citing the sometimes effectiveness of the run aren't taking into account that it was at times as effective because we did it so infrequently. 

When you run once in 10 plays... sure you might pop off an 8 yd run bc the D is dropping 8 guys to defend pass. You may average over the game 5 YPC but that doesn't mean if you up the attempts and run in expected situations it'll remain effective.

 

There will be a bigger commitment to the run to start 2017. Book it. But we've got to run effectively. We need an upgrade at C. I like our backs but if a Fournette or McCaffery is there I might be intrigued. Fournette/Dixon would be pretty nice going forward. 

Anyways. The run imbalance won't be so lopsided in 2017 unless we just suck at running. It will be a point of emphasis in developing the offense this offseason. I expect more commitment to the run and a lot more playaction/boot legs in the passing game. 

I hope we can get Dennison as QB coach, offensive assistant... to help establish some of Kubes ground game principles as well as focus on Joe's mechanics in the pocket and progressions in the WCO. 

[FlocksGottaFeed]

19 minutes ago, -Truth- said:

I'm personally not overly thrilled with the move. For a team with our passing quantity, our outside routes may have benefited from a bit more variety. Taking the Dallas game as an example, roughly 11 of the 17 passing plays ran in the first half involved both outside receivers running the same route, most of which were double hitches and double nines. Kamar Aiken had the only double move in that span. Dallas was comfortable in press-man on the outside with a sprinkle of Cover 2 otherwise, and our outside WRs were unsurprisingly ineffective on those 11 plays, amassing 25 yards on 2 catches on 5 targets, one being a failed conversion against soft coverage on 3rd and long. For a team that quite literally led the league in passing attempts, it was an alarming issue and one that was sometimes seen too often throughout Mornhinweg's tenure as our OC this season. We're inviting corners to sit on the routes after the first break. It's part of the reason why we were 1st in passing attempts and 5th worst in yards per attempt.

In addition, and this is beating a dead horse at this point, but I hope that our balance takes a rapid shift from the previous few seasons. Joe Flacco finished 2nd to Drew Brees in attempts this year by a single throw, which he would've surpassed had he not sat for Ryan Mallett. Last season, he was on pace to finish 2nd to Philip Rivers by a single throw. In 3 of the last 4 seasons, Flacco's averaged over 40 attempts per game, and the results haven't been favorable. We're looking at 53 TDs to 49 INTs and a 6.4 YPA. That's not meant as a direct slight to our QB, especially since it's something that's happened just 6 times in the last 4 years. In-between those years lies a balanced 2014 where he had what may have been a career season. And yes, injuries, inconsistencies among skill positions/OL and unspectacular run blocking didn't help, but the most frustrating aspect of this year was the fact that we had two very capable runners and a mostly healthy OL down the stretch, yet we continued to heave the ball on first downs and attempted to dig ourselves out of holes on the following downs when the former ones ended in incompletions. It just wasn't a working formula and the lack of creativity didn't aid the situation. I'm obviously cheering for Mornhinweg to right the ship next season since his performance could significantly impact our standings next season, but I'm skeptical at this point. I hope I'm proven wrong.

I'm with you. I hope I'm proven wrong, as well. At some point we have to put the team first.

[Ravensfan23]

11 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I do not view the check-downs as an extension of the running game. They're meant to be exactly what the name implies- a check down when no other passing option is open. If we're talking screens, swing passes, wheel routes, etc., then sure, I can see it being an extension of the running game. We didn't see that, though. What we saw was little dump offs over the middle that are a last resort for your passing game.

I had to look up what teams ran the WCO, but I found this- Bills (2), 49ers (4), Bengals (9), Eagles, (10), Raiders (11), Falcons (12), Chiefs (14), Broncos (15), Colts (16). Nine teams in the top half of the league run a WCO and were in the top half of rushing attempts. Four ranked in the top 10. Hell, the Ravens were behind the Packers and their WR converted to RB in rushing attempts. That's sad.

Also, as a side note, NE actually passed the ball only 55% of the time and ran 45% of the time. That's nuts for a team that's viewed as all Brady.

Anyway, back on track. Baltimore actually ranked dead last in the NFL in pass to run ratio. Lower number meaning they ran the ball more, here are some WCO's and their ranks. Bills (31), 49ers (29), Bengals (23), Falcons (22), Chiefs (20), Oakland (19), Eagles (18), Denver (17). That's an even eight in the top half of run percentage plays and it looks like another four in the top 10. All of those teams listed were about 59% pass:41% run or closer to 50%:50%. 

Clearly there's a good chance to run the ball and still be able to have a very efficient passing game (Falcons, Bengals, Raiders, Colts). It doesn't have to be exclusive, and in the case of teams like the Falcons, it probably aided in one of the most proficient seasons ever by a quarterback.

The Ravens ran the ball pretty well as the season wore on. Dixon really hit a groove and West seemed to break off longer runs more consistently in the second half of the season. The Ravens just absolutely chose to not run the ball.

I agree with all of that. My question is how does the offense improves moving forward. Everyone including players and coaches have said the offense needs the run the ball a bit more, but it's not gonna be a whole lot more imo. Going into the offseason what are the adjustments you think need to be made to help improve the running game? Is it just rushing the ball 3-4 more times per game and throwing it 3-5 times less? Is it improving the blocking scheme or what? Is it being able to improve the passing game and scoring. 

The Ravens didn't run the ball enough at all, but moving forward I don't think they'll run it much more than they have. That 26-27 attempt range is the sweet spot imo and that'll be good for anywhere from that top 10-17 ranking. I think the key is getting the most out of the passing game and taking advantage of those early scoring opportunities which the Ravens didn't do this past season. I think if the Ravens convert on more scoring opportunities and can play with the lead more it'll bring those passing totals back down to the 35-38 range and get the rush attempts up to that 26 range. I honestly don't think just running the ball more was the key to success last year, I think the Ravens have to fix the passing game because that's the focal point of the offense. 

I think what Harbs said in his presser was telling and I think the end of season presser might tell us more about the thinking moving forward. Harbs mentioned how they already have an idea of the type of WR they need and the type of RB they need, which says to me they think they are missing a few pieces to this offense. I think those pieces are a WR or 2 who runs strong routes and gets open quick. Wallace is a good speed guy but they'll needs guys like Perriman and Moore to develop as route runners along with another WR who can either get open quick or uses his body well to get between the defender and the ball. Also I think they are looking for a more physical RB. Both West and Dixon have a physical element to their game but I think the Ravens want a bruiser to pair with Dixon. He also spoke about improving the oline. 

I think a draft that consist of WR Cooper Kupp, RB Samaje Perine and C Jon Toth could really help take this offense to the next level.

[Militant X 1]

On 1/3/2017 at 0:14 PM, Ravensfan23 said:

 I get all the backlash about this move coming off the season the team just had, but imo coaches can only do so much. These players have to do some soul searching this off-season and be honest with themselves. Marty didn't put Zuttah and Ducasse in position to have so many penalties. Marty isn't the guy out there not getting separation. Now does scheme have a lot to do with it yes, but I've seen plenty of times where SSS, Aiken and Pitta were matched up with LBs in 3rd situations and couldn't win. I've seen Dixon and West miss blitz pickups. How many throws that should have been made did we see Flacco miss? 

@rmw10 I agree that situational football has to improve. That's all Marty, but the discipline of the offense needs to improve. The effort needs to improve. Pitta just looked disinterested in blocking at all. That already puts you in a disadvantage in the run game. 

Marty needs to be consumed with improving this offense, but these players better do their part as well. 

I also think that it is a combination of these coaches not utilizing their personnel properly as well.

[Ravensfan23]

6 hours ago, FlocksGottaFeed said:

There are very few that are truly 'the best' at their positions.
The real challenge is working to make others acknowledge that you truly are one of the best at what you do.

Very good overall statement; however, I think you've missed my point on this one. The 1st question you have to ask is, "Did Marty improve Joe's play or not this season?" If you feel he has than we simply have a difference of opinion.

It's my opinion that he did not based on games coached. I was in 'Camp Marty' the entire time during his interim duties as OC because of the continuity and familiarity aspects of Joe and his relationship with the team. A mid-season change like bringing in someone else would have been too much, but a change is needed now.

Marty is not the answer. You believe he'll right the ship, but I see more of the same. He's no Kubiak - who had so much league-wide respect that demanded Joe's respect. On the other hand, Marty pretty much pandered to Joe's ego which hampered Joe's play and didn't challenge his resolve (examples: Pass to Run ratio especially when the run was abandoned while averaging good gains, allowing Joe to run too many short 'comfort-zone' pass plays for minimal gains and calling many plays that didn't highlight/maximize the strengths of the other skill-players based-on situational awareness.

Yes, every NFL player has an ego, but every NFL player should also not let ego get in the way of development. Joe's problem is not arm-strength, ball placement, the playbook, etc. It's mental. He's said on several occasions that he wants to be considered 'elite' and I truly want that for him, but it's not about what you say - it's what's displayed. There has been a noticeable regression since our last appearance in the AFC Championship. Marty should have been allowed to continue-on as a QB Coach after this season. He's not the type of guy who can turn our offense around nor elevate Joe.

My thoughts are really about the rest of the offense. The Dixen and West paring could be one of the best tandems in the league, our o-line could also be elite and with 2 of the fastest receivers in the league...? We'll let's just say it's not all about Joe's ego it's about the team. Marty coached to Joe's ego - not the unit.

Kubes is one of the best offensive minds in the NFL. Not many compare to him, but he ain't coming back. We gotta move on. 

I actually think Marty did help Joe improve. Once Flacco showed signs of completely being over the knee issues, he played really well. Over a 8 game stretch from the Week 9 to Week 16 Flacco played really well. These are his numbers. 8gms 215/315 68% 2213yds 15TDs 8Ints 7.0ypa and the team came within inches in Pit from going 6-2. In what world are those not great numbers? Not just good but great, especially considering that 4 of the Ints weren't his fault. Now this is not to say that Joe had an overall great season because he didn't. But he improved, not the mission has to be building on it not starting from square one. 

Our oline could be elite? Which one because the Ravens had about 8 or 9 different combinations this year. Elite? Let's at least be honest in the expectations. 

In terms of using the personnel wrong, that's not the case imo. People want to see the Ravens push the ball down field because of Wallace and Perriman but that's not the offense. I'll admit that it frustrated me as well, but that's not the offense. Unlike under Cam, the deep ball now has to be set up and if you don't have success moving LBs and Safeties with the intermediate routes, the deep ball can be easily taken away in the WCO and that's what happened with the Ravens. Neither Perriman nor Wallace ran good enough routes to keep this offense on track and Pitta was nothing more than a check down option. The WCO is set up by a precision passing game in most cases and the Ravens didn't have that. SSS lost a step, which is understandable and while athletic, Waller didn't run good enough routes to get open quick. This is why we saw so many check downs. Not because they were called but because guys weren't getting open quick enough and even when the oline got healthy Flacco didn't have many clean pockets. This is why the deep passing game wasn't used more because the Ravens couldn't take advantage of that 7-12 yard area to influence the LBs and Safeties. 

Logic says if your passing game isn't working just run the ball, but it's not that simple. The WCO offense at it's roots is a passing offense. Now Shanahan put a twist in the game by building the WCO through his oline, but everybody can't do that especially if they weren't taught that way. First thing you want to do is establish a rhythm for your QB and if things aren't working you're gonna continue to try and get that passing game working because you're entire offense is based on it. It's no different than a run heavy team believing that even if the run game doesn't gain much yardage early, keep pounding it and eventually one will break, it's the same philosophy just different mindsets. Go back to Kubiak's time in Houston, one of the biggest knocks on him was that he was too stubborn to go away from the run game when it wasn't working and didn't adjust well in those games. So it's not just a Marty thing, even the best stick to what they believe and have faith in. I don't believe Marty called plays to fit Flacco's ego, I think he just called plays based on the fact that this team will only go as far as Flacco takes them and he's running a offense designed to get his QB in a rhythm at all cost, even if it takes 50 attempts to do so. 

Like it or not this is the offense the Ravens decided to run. Now it's about doing what's necessary to get the most out of it. 

 

[Ravensfan23]

14 minutes ago, Militant X 1 said:

I also think that it is a combination of these coaches not utilizing their personnel properly as well.

I'm hearing this a lot and I've even said it too. I think it was after the Pats game I said I didn't think Marty knew how to use the talent on this offense. But after really breaking the offense down, I don't think that's the case. Let's be honest, the offensive staff has gotten away with some mediocre talent for years now. Although the Ravens have tried to improve the talent I think this team has just been snake bitten by injuries far too much over the last few years.

Also some guys just don't fit what this offense is designed for. Neither Wallace nor Pitta fit this offense imo and SSS clearly lost a step last year, with is totally understandable. So that's 3 of your top target that really couldn't win early in their routes and that led to checkdowns. If the Ravens are committed to the WCO they have to fully commit and get players that can excel. Now I do think there is a role for Wallace here, but it should be nothing more than a 3rd or 4th option that can make plays down field. The Ravens desperately need Perriman to develop into a guy who can win at every level, cause the offense won't be successful without it. 

The vertical passing game just isn't a big part of the WCO. So myself and many others who wanted to see that this year were upset but the reality is, the deep passing game has to be set up by those 7-12 yard routes being successful and the Ravens weren't good at it. So safeties could just sit back in deep zone and really take the deep ball away. This team needs guys who can win early and stay healthy. Or if they aren't great route runners, they need to have that big body presence to get between the defender and the ball.   

[PurpleCity5]

Marty's decision making in goal line is very questionable. The Ravens have a power rank percentage of 9% and and a power success of 70%. Percentage of runs that are successful when a team requires 2 or 3 yards for a 1st down. The numbers would tell Marty that he would have a much better chance of scoring a TD via the run on that situation than a pass. Yet not only did that decision back fire on him once but twice. Though the Ravens are a team that has trouble running the Football, in short yardage situations, the Ravens do a quality job of running the ball, to which Mornihinweg decides to pass. 

[January J]

14 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

CSN-Mid Atlantic said since 2013, he's 17-6 with a 3-0 record in 2016.

Well there ya go- and I guarantee that the winning percentage is even higher since 2008. Numbers rarely lie.

Edited January 5 by January J

[rmcjacket23]

21 hours ago, January J said:

That's the way I see it. Couldn't agree more.

I also want to get the official number of games Flacco has won as opposed to losing when having under 35 pass attempts throughout his entire career. I guarantee you its a big difference.

Lifetime (including playoffs):

< 25 attempts : 23-1

25-29 attempts: 22-3

30-34 attempts: 22-17

35-39 attempts: 14-12

40-44 attempts: 4-6

45-49 attempts: 5-11

50+ attempts: 3-9

So in his career, when he's under 35 pass attempts, the Ravens are 67-21, a win % of 76%. That's a 12-4 record over a season on average.

[January J]

13 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Lifetime (including playoffs):

< 25 attempts : 23-1

25-29 attempts: 22-3

30-34 attempts: 22-17

35-39 attempts: 14-12

40-44 attempts: 4-6

45-49 attempts: 5-11

50+ attempts: 3-9

So in his career, when he's under 35 pass attempts, the Ravens are 67-21, a win % of 76%. That's a 12-4 record over a season on average.

Thanks for the info bro. Pretty telling. You would think that coordinators would have figured this out by now- but I'm sure they'd spew the same "every situation is different ; depends on the flow of the game" nonsense -which has SOME truth to it- but in my eyes is mostly just an excuse.  Its so glaringly obvious they have not been playing to joes strengths.

Funny how the number gets worse and worse as the attempts increase. Without even any outliers.

Edited January 5 by January J

[rmcjacket23]

3 minutes ago, January J said:

Thanks for the info bro. Pretty telling. You would think that coordinators would have figured this out by now- but I'm sure they'd spew the same "every situation is different ; depends on the flow of the game" nonsense -which has SOME truth to it- but in my eyes is mostly just an excuse.  Its so glaringly obvious they have not been playing to joes strengths.

Funny how the number gets worse and worse as the attempts increase. Without even any outliers.

Context is important here, though. We're going back to 2008 on these, so we're including Joe's rookie year and the time period where we were an extremely run heavy team and really never wanted Joe throwing more than like 25-30 passes.

Frankly, its just not feasible to think that you can have a QB getting paid this much or even being successful throwing it 25 times a game. Most starting QBs in this league are throwing it close to or more than 500 times a season, which is at least 30 pass attempts a game. Dak Prescott is like the only QB who may have come in under that, and if he played all of week 17, he probably would have been right at about 30 attempts a game. All of the QBs under that are guys who haven't played a full season due to benchings, injuries, suspensions, etc.

Even guys like Alex Smith, who is the epitome of what most fans consider a "game manager" and plays on a team that runs the ball a lot, he's still averaging about 30 attempts a game.

Unless you have a Cowboys-like running game and offensive line, 30-35 attempts per game is sort of the minimum standard for starting NFL QBs in an average game. Just the direction the NFL is going.

[Militant X 1]

8 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I'm hearing this a lot and I've even said it too. I think it was after the Pats game I said I didn't think Marty knew how to use the talent on this offense. But after really breaking the offense down, I don't think that's the case. Let's be honest, the offensive staff has gotten away with some mediocre talent for years now. Although the Ravens have tried to improve the talent I think this team has just been snake bitten by injuries far too much over the last few years.

Also some guys just don't fit what this offense is designed for. Neither Wallace nor Pitta fit this offense imo and SSS clearly lost a step last year, with is totally understandable. So that's 3 of your top target that really couldn't win early in their routes and that led to checkdowns. If the Ravens are committed to the WCO they have to fully commit and get players that can excel. Now I do think there is a role for Wallace here, but it should be nothing more than a 3rd or 4th option that can make plays down field. The Ravens desperately need Perriman to develop into a guy who can win at every level, cause the offense won't be successful without it. 

The vertical passing game just isn't a big part of the WCO. So myself and many others who wanted to see that this year were upset but the reality is, the deep passing game has to be set up by those 7-12 yard routes being successful and the Ravens weren't good at it. So safeties could just sit back in deep zone and really take the deep ball away. This team needs guys who can win early and stay healthy. Or if they aren't great route runners, they need to have that big body presence to get between the defender and the ball.   

Sooooo, it is a combination of the coaches not utilizing the personnel properly?  

 

[January J]

28 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Context is important here, though. We're going back to 2008 on these, so we're including Joe's rookie year and the time period where we were an extremely run heavy team and really never wanted Joe throwing more than like 25-30 passes.

Frankly, its just not feasible to think that you can have a QB getting paid this much or even being successful throwing it 25 times a game. Most starting QBs in this league are throwing it close to or more than 500 times a season, which is at least 30 pass attempts a game. Dak Prescott is like the only QB who may have come in under that, and if he played all of week 17, he probably would have been right at about 30 attempts a game. All of the QBs under that are guys who haven't played a full season due to benchings, injuries, suspensions, etc.

Even guys like Alex Smith, who is the epitome of what most fans consider a "game manager" and plays on a team that runs the ball a lot, he's still averaging about 30 attempts a game.

Unless you have a Cowboys-like running game and offensive line, 30-35 attempts per game is sort of the minimum standard for starting NFL QBs in an average game. Just the direction the NFL is going.

Good point and I was just about to point that out as well. In those earlier years we actually had a bellcow running back in Ray Rice- plus I think it's pretty safe to say we had a much better defense, regardless of the numbers. More leaders- more physicality- and probably more turnovers ( although I'd have to double check on that so don't hold me to it) we also got a little more help on ST back in Jacoby's Hayday. so yes context is very important - but I think that the fact the numbers still tell basically the same story more recently since  2013 only solidifies the statement to be true- We win more when Joe throws under 35 times, period. And its not like we didn't have a talented running back. We had 2. They werent going to light the league on fire but were more than capable of getting the job done- Along with what I would say was an above average line. We obviously became one dimensional which drastically effected the receivers getting open- resulting in check down after check down.

Edited January 5 by January J

[Moderator 3]

1 hour ago, January J said:

Funny how the number gets worse and worse as the attempts increase. Without even any outliers.

But you do have to consider the circumstances.  Prior to this year, Joe's pass-happy games tended to be those where we were behind and trying to catch up fast.  

[rmcjacket23]

Updated to reflect last four years only (2013-2016), including playoffs

< 25 attempts : 2-0

25-29 attempts: 6-0

30-34 attempts: 10-6

35-39 attempts: 6-4

40-44 attempts: 3-4

45-49 attempts: 2-8

50+ attempts: 1-8

So in the last four years, the "dropoff" seems to be once he gets into the 40+ pass attempt range. Ravens have a 70% win percentage in the last four years when he throws less than 40 times. Its still even a 65% win percentage if he throws it less than 45 attempts, so that's probably the high range.

Edited January 5 by rmcjacket23

[January J]

2 minutes ago, Moderator 3 said:

But you do have to consider the circumstances.  Prior to this year, Joe's pass-happy games tended to be those where we were behind and trying to catch up fast.  

Yeah that makes sense...esp late in the game or if down by 2 or 3 scores.

However most of our games were close  ( like down by 10 points or fewer) and sometimes still early in the game. In those cases we shouldn't have been scared to still run the rock. Taking control of the time of possession- tiring out the opponents defense- along with getting our own defense more rest is all essential. Going pass heavy is not the only way to climb back into games. Next thing you know you got a couple 3 and outs - your defense is tired and then they get scored on again only making it worse- and then we go from pass heavy to pass crazy and abandon the run all together. Then the defense just sits back and forces Joe to check down all day. Our defense starts getting run on BC their tired and before you know it they've milked the clock down to 6 minutes remaining. Every now and then we scratched and crawled our way back in- but we made it way too hard on ourselves. Its hard to stick with the run when your trailing and when it seems to just not be working- but you gotta stick with it regardless.

[AsianRice]

I hope John pushed to get Dennison here as QB coach cuz I'm positive he will help Joe tremendously and get him back to 2014 form.....

[The Raven]

10 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I'm hearing this a lot and I've even said it too. I think it was after the Pats game I said I didn't think Marty knew how to use the talent on this offense. But after really breaking the offense down, I don't think that's the case. Let's be honest, the offensive staff has gotten away with some mediocre talent for years now. Although the Ravens have tried to improve the talent I think this team has just been snake bitten by injuries far too much over the last few years.

Also some guys just don't fit what this offense is designed for. Neither Wallace nor Pitta fit this offense imo and SSS clearly lost a step last year, with is totally understandable. So that's 3 of your top target that really couldn't win early in their routes and that led to checkdowns. If the Ravens are committed to the WCO they have to fully commit and get players that can excel. Now I do think there is a role for Wallace here, but it should be nothing more than a 3rd or 4th option that can make plays down field. The Ravens desperately need Perriman to develop into a guy who can win at every level, cause the offense won't be successful without it. 

The vertical passing game just isn't a big part of the WCO. So myself and many others who wanted to see that this year were upset but the reality is, the deep passing game has to be set up by those 7-12 yard routes being successful and the Ravens weren't good at it. So safeties could just sit back in deep zone and really take the deep ball away. This team needs guys who can win early and stay healthy. Or if they aren't great route runners, they need to have that big body presence to get between the defender and the ball.   

Trying to learn here. Why aren't they good fits, and what should we look for?

[Moderator 3]

So I have a question and am not sure where to find the answer.  Maybe someone can help me out.

I'd like to know how many times we went 3/4 and out to start a series (offense) vs. how many times we at least got a first down (or scored).  I'd also be curious to know if it improved throughout the season.  

 

[Ravensfan23]

4 hours ago, Militant X 1 said:

Sooooo, it is a combination of the coaches not utilizing the personnel properly?  

 

Exactly 😁

[Swift 1]

On 1/3/2017 at 0:19 PM, BmoreBird22 said:

It's not that the Ravens couldn't run the ball; they just flat out chose not to and that's very disturbing.

Maybe it's my memory I but I  remember reading Mike Preston in the Sun papers and he kept saying we have to run more every Monday and I remembered thinking on Sunday that he incomplete pass that made it second and ten was much better than the runs tht made it second and twelve.

[Ravensfan23]

5 hours ago, The Raven said:

Trying to learn here. Why aren't they good fits, and what should we look for?

Just my personal opinion of course but they don't get open quickly enough to present options for Flacco because their poor route running or in Pitta's case the lack of short area quickness. I'm going back and watching a lot of the offensive performances over the last nine games and the amount of times you see Wallace and Pitta get locked down because they ran weak routes or didn't make an attempt to uncover is ridiculous.

Pitta had a bad habit of cutting routes just short of the LBs allowing them to sit back and drive on the ball instead of him pushing his route into the defenders, making them commit than snapping off his route. The two biggest areas this showed up was 3rd downs and redone. This offense needs a stretch TE and that's why they attacked Watson so hard in FA. 

Wallace doesn't fit as a top target imo. You can't rely on him to consistently keep the offense moving but the Ravens were forced to do that because of SSS injuries and Perriman not really developing like they wanted. 

I think what is needed is a savvy route runner like a Pierre Garcon or a big bodied WR who can out muscle defenders for position but also still make plays down field when called. This will be Perriman in the near future, but I think Kenny Britt is a nice option to take some of the pressure off of him. 

Not sure if the Ravens currently have that savvy stretch TE needed, but Waller and Williams will be given the shot to prove they are the guys. 

[RavensFanMania]

52 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Just my personal opinion of course but they don't get open quickly enough to present options for Flacco because their poor route running or in Pitta's case the lack of short area quickness. I'm going back and watching a lot of the offensive performances over the last nine games and the amount of times you see Wallace and Pitta get locked down because they ran weak routes or didn't make an attempt to uncover is ridiculous.

Pitta had a bad habit of cutting routes just short of the LBs allowing them to sit back and drive on the ball instead of him pushing his route into the defenders, making them commit than snapping off his route. The two biggest areas this showed up was 3rd downs and redone. This offense needs a stretch TE and that's why they attacked Watson so hard in FA. 

Wallace doesn't fit as a top target imo. You can't rely on him to consistently keep the offense moving but the Ravens were forced to do that because of SSS injuries and Perriman not really developing like they wanted. 

I think what is needed is a savvy route runner like a Pierre Garcon or a big bodied WR who can out muscle defenders for position but also still make plays down field when called. This will be Perriman in the near future, but I think Kenny Britt is a nice option to take some of the pressure off of him. 

Not sure if the Ravens currently have that savvy stretch TE needed, but Waller and Williams will be given the shot to prove they are the guys. 

I'd love to have Garçon here, but feel the Skins want to resign him and let Djax walk.

Edited January 5 by RavensFanMania

[Cillmatic]

8 hours ago, AsianRice said:

I hope John pushed to get Dennison here as QB coach cuz I'm positive he will help Joe tremendously and get him back to 2014 form.....

Doubt he's up for a demotion.