Next Up: Ravens Free Agents--Who goes? Who stays?

[usmccharles]

1 minute ago, redlobster said:

I sure wish Alex Lewis got the start at RT vs the Bengals so we could have at least seen him in some regular game footage as a RT. Although I prefer Wagner being re-signed.

Even if he did, you want to bet on the future of our oline on one game? 

[Cillmatic]

21 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Even if he did, you want to bet on the future of our oline on one game? 

It be better than none, though I'd rather see him at LG; Wagner has to be resigned before Williams gets an offer.

 

The fact that they only time they had Lewis out on the field was for a trick play is simply bad coaching. Completely squandered an opportunity to evaluate him a little bit.

Edited January 4 by Cillmatic

[usmccharles]

1 minute ago, Cillmatic said:

It be better than none, though I'd rather see him at LG; Wagner has to be resigned before Williams gets an offer.

Well yea, that's what im getting at.  Why even take that chance.  I think Wagner should be our number one priority

[Cillmatic]

9 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Well yea, that's what im getting at.  Why even take that chance.  I think Wagner should be our number one priority

Im not saying that though. I'm saying they should've played him at LG.

Edited January 4 by Cillmatic

[usmccharles]

2 minutes ago, Cillmatic said:

Im not saying that though. I'm saying they should've played him at LG.

Wasn't the reason because of Yanda's shoulder that Lewis was moved to RG?  From what I read on here is that Yanda couldn't play RG and would have to be IRd but he was able to play LG.  If we would of Kept Lewis at LG then we have no one at RG

or are we having a miss-communication?

Edited January 4 by usmccharles

[rmcjacket23]

5 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Wasn't the reason because of Yanda's shoulder that Lewis was moved to RG?  From what I read on here is that Yanda couldn't play RG and would have to be IRd but he was able to play LG.  If we would of Kept Lewis at LG then we have no one at RG

or are we having a miss-communication?

This is correct.

Yanda switched to LG because he couldn't play RG with his shoulder and would have gone to IR otherwise. So Lewis was never going to play LG. 

I also have no issue with starting Ducasse at RG to finish the season to help with the continuity of the line. I didn't think Lewis was a significant upgrade over him anyway, and Lewis' future is clearly at either LG or RT, so it really doesn't do him any good to play RG for one game.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

1 hour ago, usmccharles said:

You want to let Wagner go, so we can potentially find a guy on the practice squad? are you kidding me? I (and I bet a lot of others do) usually judge someone's understanding of football on what their opinions on offensive lines are, and while a lot of the times I think you make good points, I cant fathom how you think letting a quality RT go for a practice squad player or even lewis, just so we have to go find a replacement.  So many people sit here and preach about building an oline but the moment you realize it takes money away from your sexy WR, you throw a fit. 

This isn't about what I want to do. In a perfect world I'd keep Wagner AND Williams, but I know that's not going to happen. It is about money and what the Front Office thinks. You need to separate the two issues. And that guy on the practice squad is already found. Don't be shocked to see Skura.

I'm not throwing a fit. I am just telling you what the financial issues are and what I think is likely to happen.

It all hinges on the offers Wagner gets. If he gets offered a top money for his position contract, he's gone. The Ravens are not going to match or beat it. It is really that simple. They will go forward with Alex Lewis at either G or T depending on what they can get in the draft and if Zuttah is cut you better believe Urschel and Skura will be in the mix for the competition to replace him.

Again, what I want to have happen doesn't equal what I think will happen or what will happen. You just sit back and watch what happens and I am certain Williams and Wagner are gone. Lewis will be the replacement on the O-line and somebody else either currently on the roster, on the PS, a new draft pick, or a veteran cap cut casualty will be added to take the other open position on the line.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

1 hour ago, rmw10 said:

You really talking this highly of some PS fodder like they're actually going to turn into something?  Oh, brother...

Nope. The team is. Don't get things mixed up.

The decision about Wagner and Williams were made well before the end of this season I assure you.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

1 hour ago, Purple_City39 said:

Was all of this directed at me, because I don't recall mentioning Aiken, let alone slobbering.  I've actually never cared for AIken, so I'm curious as to whether that was an unknown and pointless addition or if it had something to do with what you think I said.

In terms of making Perriman a starter, if you noticed I said make him "the #1 or #2" not "a #1".  You can definitely make any player you want a starter and see how they do and the Ravens have done it a ton of times with 1st round picks so that's not an issue.  Whether he becomes a true #1 WR is another story that we'll have to wait and see

Why do people read far too much into things than are there. It is pretty freeking obvious if YOU didn't say something about a player and I make a post about it (because you know, I can multi-task in a post) then I am obviously not referring to it if if it was nothing you ever said. For crying out loud.

Dude, mince words all you want but if you include a #1 in your sentence, then obviously you meant it. Guys just don't get handed jobs just because. You don't make a guy a main receiving threat if he can't catch and can't get open. If that were the case Ed Dickson would still be our TE because he was drafted ahead of Dennis Pitta even though Dickson couldn't even catch a cold.

[Sherly_Tebow]

So right now.... Offensively...

- O-line has 3 secured spots (Stanley, Lewis, Yanda), and 2 in question (Wagner, Zuttah). We need a C and RT or LG.

- QB spot is secured (Flacco), while a backup is a needed. FA QB's include Josh Johnson, Matt Cassel, Ryan Mallett, Geno Smith, Mike Glennon, Christian Ponder. The Ravens could go with one of them, or try to draft a QB and develop him, or do both.

- RB looks good with Dixon and West, but a third back could make a pretty intimidating trio. Maybe they're on the roster already? If so, step up or be cut. I think drafting one is a possibility. FA RB's include Danny Woodhead, DeAngelo Williams, Darren McFadden, Chris Johnson, Eddie Lacy, Tim Hightower, and Jacquizz Rodgers. A few of these FA's are tempting, but I'm satisfied with what the Ravens have now as long as they find an efficient third back.

- WR spots are Perriman, Wallace, Moore, and Campanaro. We need a possesion WR for sure. FA WR's include DeSean Jackson, Anquan Boldin, Alshon Jeffery, Pierre Garcon, Vincent Jackson, Kenny Britt, Ted Ginn Jr., and a lot more. I wouldn't mind bringing in Boldin, Jeffery, or Garcon. 

- TE spots are Pitta, Watson, Williams, Crockett, and Boyle. Pitta and Watson could be cut or asked to take a paycut. I wouldn't mind keeping them though. Crockett, Williams and Boyle are young with a lot of potential. 

- FB spot is open at the moment. I think we bring back Juice though. I thought he was efficient for us as well as a hidden weapon for the offense.

 

Edited January 4 by Sherly_Tebow

[allblackraven]

37 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Wasn't the reason because of Yanda's shoulder that Lewis was moved to RG?  From what I read on here is that Yanda couldn't play RG and would have to be IRd but he was able to play LG.  If we would of Kept Lewis at LG then we have no one at RG

or are we having a miss-communication?

You are correct. I also think that Lewis' spot is the tackle, not guard although he can help inside as a backup.

[usmccharles]

30 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

This isn't about what I want to do. In a perfect world I'd keep Wagner AND Williams, but I know that's not going to happen. It is about money and what the Front Office thinks. You need to separate the two issues. And that guy on the practice squad is already found. Don't be shocked to see Skura.

I'm not throwing a fit. I am just telling you what the financial issues are and what I think is likely to happen.

It all hinges on the offers Wagner gets. If he gets offered a top money for his position contract, he's gone. The Ravens are not going to match or beat it. It is really that simple. They will go forward with Alex Lewis at either G or T depending on what they can get in the draft and if Zuttah is cut you better believe Urschel and Skura will be in the mix for the competition to replace him.

Again, what I want to have happen doesn't equal what I think will happen or what will happen. You just sit back and watch what happens and I am certain Williams and Wagner are gone. Lewis will be the replacement on the O-line and somebody else either currently on the roster, on the PS, a new draft pick, or a veteran cap cut casualty will be added to take the other open position on the line.

Since this is all hypothetical and none of us know what the fo will do, I guess it's my fault for assuming you were hoping that's how things played out.   But something tells me I'm not the only one who would say you were implying that was the moves you wanted.  My bad.  

[rmw10]

30 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

Nope. The team is. Don't get things mixed up.

The decision about Wagner and Williams were made well before the end of this season I assure you.

You mean, just like they were talking about Nick Perry as the next great gem out of Alabama?  That's just one example.  Don't be so ignorant and believe what a Ravens site is pumping you about PS guys.

And no, the decision was not made before the season.  You're ridiculous if you really believe that.

[PurpleCity5]

3 hours ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

Offensive Linemen that are good get paid. Who would think that a LG like Osemele or that Yanda would be making so much as Gaurds. RTs get paid too. And Wagner will. It is also about trade offs. The team loves Alex Lewis. Alex Lewis is cheap. What drop off in production do you get with Alex Lewis at RT for dirt cheap as compared to Rick Wagner at RT for millions of dollars? That's the gamble, one the Ravens will take.

I agree with you and I like Guy. Again, it is value for dollar. Guy doesn't do anything that another person couldn't do. You could plug in guys you already have on the roster and get the same production. Guy is entitled to a certain dollar amount simply because he is a veteran.

Vlad can't pass protect to save his life and he got the job for his run blocking....and we didn't run the dang ball. But, when we did run the ball we ran better because he was in there at RG. He is cheap, but you can get cheaper, younger, and better with a draft choice or with somebody else already on the roster.

Levine is nothing special. He's a special teams ace...so what? Get somebody else that is an athletic safety that can actually tackle and they'll be our next ST ace. You have to remember VALUE. We can get somebody to do the same things he does for cheaper. Even if it is for a little bit cheaper.

Pitta may or may not be the curse/plague we all think he is, but he's the only proven TE with hands we have that knows how to get open. Waller doesn't get open and drops the ball. Watson will be cut. Maxx Williams showed some flashes, but he got hurt. Boyle is a blocking TE that won't do anything better than Pitta other than block, and Crockett Gillmore is all banged up and may never be the same. Pitta is the best TE we have regardless of what fans think about him.

There's no assurance that Alex Lewis will be able to play the RT spot at a high level, Harbaugh talked about making Joe better by beefing up the OL and improving it which in turn will make Joe better. Hard to take that seriously if he lets Wagner walk. Keep the stability at OL and make the only upgrade at center. 

As far as Wagner's pay goes, Lane Johnson has an $11M salary but is expected to soon make the switch to LT, which explains why he was paid so much. After that it's a huge fall with Bryan Bulaga making $6M a year, which is the average that all the top RTs make. $5M-$6M a year is definitely worth it for Wagner. 

In Lawrence Guy's case, this guy is a serious run stopper and occasionally can run the passer, he provides really good depth, I see no reason to let him go if he comes cheap. 

Vlad played over Urschel and Jensen, I don't see how you can really get someone better without investing a whole lot. Maybe you can look towards the draft but I wouldn't bank on that. 

In Levine's case, again, its really not going to be expensive to keep him so I don't know why you would let him go. You need guys to play on STs, you saw what Matt Judon was doing on ST this season? You need guys who can play there, Levine can do that and play a little bit of snaps on defense. Don't see us letting him go. 

Pitta just isn't that good in reality. I think it was rmw but someone here posted a stat on Pitta's YPC, how much he averaged per catches and he was in the 100s range ranking below RBs and other TEs. That's awful. Joe is also being to reliant on him, instead of progressing through his reads he just looks to Pitta for the check down when his first option isn't there. 

I agree with you on the other guys, they haven't proven much but it won't be the 1st time we relied on some one else to step up. If I can recall Pitta had 1 catch for 1 yard and Ed Dickson 11 catches for 153 before we relied on them to step up in 2010. It's a gamble but one you might have to take. That cap hit is not worth it for a guy like Pitta. 

[rossihunter2]

i have numbers in my head already for brandon williams but what does everyone think it will cost to bring wagner back - i dont know what sort of contract he would get in free agency and what it would be "fair" to pay him - anyone got any ideas?

[terrynjulia03]

6 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

i have numbers in my head already for brandon williams but what does everyone think it will cost to bring wagner back - i dont know what sort of contract he would get in free agency and what it would be "fair" to pay him - anyone got any ideas?

Barksdale in SD just signed a 4yr 22M. Gilbert 2 years ago signed a 5 yr 30m. Basically around 5.5- 6m per year. I'd like to see something like 5 yr for 27m.

[rossihunter2]

2 hours ago, terrynjulia03 said:

Barksdale in SD just signed a 4yr 22M. Gilbert 2 years ago signed a 5 yr 30m. Basically around 5.5- 6m per year. I'd like to see something like 5 yr for 27m.

Thanks. I'm not versed in their play level as a comparison - were they similar situations at all or just the closest right tackle deals?

[B-more Ravor]

4 hours ago, terrynjulia03 said:

Barksdale in SD just signed a 4yr 22M. Gilbert 2 years ago signed a 5 yr 30m. Basically around 5.5- 6m per year. I'd like to see something like 5 yr for 27m.

Mitchell Schwartz (KC) just got $33M/5 yrs last Spring. Marcus Cannon (NE) got $32.5M/5 yrs in November.  Prices will go up as FA approaches, so I'd think Wagner is going to end up around $7M/year.

[PurpleCity5]

Center is a position that is in desperate need for an immediate upgrade because Zuttah is not going to cut it. 

If you look at all of the top OLs, you would see that they have good-great-elite play at center. Dallas, Pitt, and Oak all had an elite center and it results in a great OL. 

That's not only it though, when I dove into the numbers via FootballOutsiders, it gives you a good indication somewhat why a lot of plays failed through the middle. 

First off, 20% of our runs were stuffed which would put us at 14th, plays were the RB was stuffed behind the LOS. 

The complete statistics of runs through directions of the OL are below.

 

 

	LEFT END		LEFT TACKLE		MID/GUARD		RIGHT TACKLE		RIGHT END
	TEAM	ALY	Rank	ALY	Rank	ALY	Rank	ALY	Rank	ALY	Rank
	BAL	3.99	18	3.39	25	3.69	24	3.65	15	5.59	1

We didn't run well through the LT, but keep in mind that we had Lewis there for three games and Stanley recovering from injury. As Stanley improved in health the Ravens were able to run through the left a bit better. Through the middle, in games that featured Yanda at RG, we were not effective at running the ball, then after Yanda went down and was forced to move to LG, we didn't anything through the middle, we can also all recall how many failed runs we had through the left side of Lewis/Zuttah. Further more, on runs through the right end we were #1. On runs through the left end we were #18 but again keep in mind that we had 6 games were the LT spot was effected by injuries and when Stanley returned to health and Yanda shifted to LG, we noticed that runs through the Left End dramatically improved. It seems that when we run away from Zuttah, we run more effectively. 

Team	RB Carries	LEFT END	LEFT TACKLE	MID/ GUARD	RIGHT TACKLE	RIGHT END
25	BAL	327	7%	9%	61%	17%	6%

 

The Ravens ran it through the middle on 61% of plays which is above the average of 56%, ranking around 8th in the league in runs up the middle, however in runs through the right end, they ranked tied for 7th least in the league. It surely would have helped in the long run if the Ravens have ran it through the left/right end rather than beat a dead horse and constantly run it through the mid/guard. Obviously more runs are done through those directions than anywhere else, but it would have helped if they ran it less through there. 

Of course, there's no research that says for certain that you run better through the right/middle/left because of how each OL is build differently and how vastly different they are from one another, with that said the Ravens adjusted rank of 24th in runs through the mid/guard which they run threw 61% of the time, that's just terrible. 

If the Ravens want to get better in running the Football, they'll have to get better in running through the middle, it's the most physical brand of running the ball and will make runs between the tackles and through the left/right end that much more successful. 

I would say that rather than the 28th ranked run attack, I would say the Ravens were about the 24th ranked run D, FootballOutsiders has them at 20th, and I'm sure PFF has them in that area which is where I believe them to be, and that would obviously mean that we were not good at running the Football. 

 

I would look towards the draft for a replacement because the FA market is weak, but with that said I don't think it would be in the best interest of the Ravens if they move onto next season with Zuttah at center. 

 

 

Edited January 5 by PurpleCity5

[Tank 92]

6 hours ago, B-more Ravor said:

Mitchell Schwartz (KC) just got $33M/5 yrs last Spring. Marcus Cannon (NE) got $32.5M/5 yrs in November.  Prices will go up as FA approaches, so I'd think Wagner is going to end up around $7M/year.

Rick did grade out near the top.  Correct? 

I think they have to commit to the O line and this is the immediate "must do".  If that's the number, that's the number. 

[Purple_City39]

14 hours ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

Why do people read far too much into things than are there. It is pretty freeking obvious if YOU didn't say something about a player and I make a post about it (because you know, I can multi-task in a post) then I am obviously not referring to it if if it was nothing you ever said. For crying out loud.

Dude, mince words all you want but if you include a #1 in your sentence, then obviously you meant it. Guys just don't get handed jobs just because. You don't make a guy a main receiving threat if he can't catch and can't get open. If that were the case Ed Dickson would still be our TE because he was drafted ahead of Dennis Pitta even though Dickson couldn't even catch a cold.

Amazing how you choose to talk about people reading into things, then admittedly point out that because you saw the phrase "#1" you took it basically how you wanted it as opposed to how I specifically said it.  Hypocrites are an interesting group.

I said what I said and I explained it clearly.  Continue to do with it how you choose.

Either way, many players have been giving starting jobs due to being drafted in the first round.  There's zero reason not to do that now.  We can talk about Perriman's drops but which WR on the Ravens didn't have an issue with those outside of Camp in very limited time?  You give your highest ceiling WR the most chances, plain and simple

[rmw10]

45 minutes ago, Purple_City39 said:

Amazing how you choose to talk about people reading into things, then admittedly point out that because you saw the phrase "#1" you took it basically how you wanted it as opposed to how I specifically said it.  Hypocrites are an interesting group.

I said what I said and I explained it clearly.  Continue to do with it how you choose.

Either way, many players have been giving starting jobs due to being drafted in the first round.  There's zero reason not to do that now.  We can talk about Perriman's drops but which WR on the Ravens didn't have an issue with those outside of Camp in very limited time?  You give your highest ceiling WR the most chances, plain and simple

I've already talked about this with another member, but you can't just throw Perriman out there at this point and expect him to learn on the job while remaining competitive.  He needs a ton of work.  His routes need a ton of work and you simply can't count on a guy that is as inconsistent as he is in that realm.  If you get him in open space, he's fine.  Right now, you can't count on him to do a simple route to the flat.  I'm fine with working him in as much as possible as the #3, but there's no way this team is handing Perriman a starting job.

[rmcjacket23]

16 hours ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

Nope. The team is. Don't get things mixed up.

The decision about Wagner and Williams were made well before the end of this season I assure you.

Yeah, you don't have the knowledge to make those assurances.

You could argue that the decision about how much to offer them was made before the season ended, but I see no possible scenario where the FO decided before the season ended that one or both would or wouldn't be back. Frankly, the FO doesn't have the knowledge or information to make that decision yet either.

You're definitely making some baseless assumptions on this one.

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, Purple_City39 said:

Amazing how you choose to talk about people reading into things, then admittedly point out that because you saw the phrase "#1" you took it basically how you wanted it as opposed to how I specifically said it.  Hypocrites are an interesting group.

I said what I said and I explained it clearly.  Continue to do with it how you choose.

Either way, many players have been giving starting jobs due to being drafted in the first round.  There's zero reason not to do that now.  We can talk about Perriman's drops but which WR on the Ravens didn't have an issue with those outside of Camp in very limited time?  You give your highest ceiling WR the most chances, plain and simple

I mean yes and no. I wouldn't say first round picks are just "given" starting jobs, but they're typically given the benefit of the doubt. A lot of times the competition for that job is less because of their draft status and expectations (by design), which helps their chance of getting that gig.

Its like when you draft Stanley, you don't go sign Joe Thomas or a good LT also and say "he's got to compete for the job". Its part of the reason why I never really thought Monroe and Stanley on the same team would work out well.

 

Edited January 5 by rmcjacket23

[EdTheMythicalOne]

16 hours ago, rmw10 said:

You mean, just like they were talking about Nick Perry as the next great gem out of Alabama?  That's just one example.  Don't be so ignorant and believe what a Ravens site is pumping you about PS guys.

And no, the decision was not made before the season.  You're ridiculous if you really believe that.

The Ravens like their own players sometimes to a fault and they will believe they have the answer in house. I am not ignorant and I am not believing that a guy like Stephon Nembot will come off the practice squad and become a HOF tackle. I don't always write what my personal opinion is from my fan perspective. I write what I think is logic tells me will happen based on what I think the team is thinking. They like Skura.

You don't think this decision was made about Brandon Williams before this off season? Was drafting Carl Davis, Willie Henry, and picking up Micheal Pierce as an UDFA not enough evidence for you? The decision on Wagner was probably on hold until halfway through this season to see how he'd bounce back from his own lis franc injury. He had by all accounts a pretty good season. I personally think it would be a good move if the Ravens can afford to re-up him. I just think that there are some teams out there that know he's a good tackle and will pay him accordingly and the Ravens will move on.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

2 hours ago, Purple_City39 said:

Amazing how you choose to talk about people reading into things, then admittedly point out that because you saw the phrase "#1" you took it basically how you wanted it as opposed to how I specifically said it.  Hypocrites are an interesting group.

I said what I said and I explained it clearly.  Continue to do with it how you choose.

Either way, many players have been giving starting jobs due to being drafted in the first round.  There's zero reason not to do that now.  We can talk about Perriman's drops but which WR on the Ravens didn't have an issue with those outside of Camp in very limited time?  You give your highest ceiling WR the most chances, plain and simple

You mentioned as a #1 or #2 option, and I took that as YOU MEANT it by stating that Perriman should be at the very least a starting WR and possibly the #1 option. How in the world else could anyone interpret that? Be careful with that hypocrite word. I don't think you have the foundation behind you to utilize the word properly.

I always do what I chose and I don't need your permission. I called you out on your horse stuff and now you are scrambling to back track because I make enough sense to make you realize what you typed was silly.

Which Ravens receiver didn't have a lot of drops? Dennis Pitta. Might be why Flacco tosses the rock to him all the time. Funny how the guy with the most reliable hands gets targeted the most.

No, you give the guy that can make the catches and make the plays the most targets, plain and simple. You don't just toss the rock on a wish....not if you want to win football games.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Yeah, you don't have the knowledge to make those assurances.

You could argue that the decision about how much to offer them was made before the season ended, but I see no possible scenario where the FO decided before the season ended that one or both would or wouldn't be back. Frankly, the FO doesn't have the knowledge or information to make that decision yet either.

You're definitely making some baseless assumptions on this one.

First off, you don't know what I do and don't know, so don't pretend to. Before the off season I told this site that Devin Hester would be a Raven. I wonder how I knew?

You don't think that a billion dollar investment like the Ravens that hires a person in the capacity of being a cap guru has no idea about what potential market value is of certain players on their roster? You don't think the decision on KO was made prior to him leaving last off season?

All you need to do is look at logic. The Ravens drafted/signed THREE players that play the same position as Brandon Williams. Carl Davis, Willie Henry, and Micheal Pierce and those guys were all obtained within the past two off seasons. You can look at the kind of contract Damon Harrison got from the Giants last season and argue that Brandon Williams is pretty much the same player. Add in the fact that salaries tend to go up for guys in the primes of their careers and you got a potential 5 year $50 million contract on your hands. You think the Ravens are going to spend that after seeing the level of play they got out of Pierce last season and while getting a healthy Carl Davis and Willie Henry back?

They already have Rick Wagner's replacement on hand in Alex Lewis. I am certain the Ravens have a price point in mind for signing Wagner and if an offer comes in over that point they let him walk.

There is nothing baseless about my thought process and if you think this stuff hasn't already happened then why don't you offer me any information that supports your viewpoint rather than just aimlessly trying to shoot down my comment. Substance to the sizzle.

[usmccharles]

13 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

The Ravens like their own players sometimes to a fault and they will believe they have the answer in house. I am not ignorant and I am not believing that a guy like Stephon Nembot will come off the practice squad and become a HOF tackle. I don't always write what my personal opinion is from my fan perspective. I write what I think is logic tells me will happen based on what I think the team is thinking. They like Skura.

You don't think this decision was made about Brandon Williams before this off season? Was drafting Carl Davis, Willie Henry, and picking up Micheal Pierce as an UDFA not enough evidence for you? The decision on Wagner was probably on hold until halfway through this season to see how he'd bounce back from his own lis franc injury. He had by all accounts a pretty good season. I personally think it would be a good move if the Ravens can afford to re-up him. I just think that there are some teams out there that know he's a good tackle and will pay him accordingly and the Ravens will move on.

Maybe it's just not clear what your implying.  The decision may have been made about how much the FO would Offer,  but it's still on the player to accept the offer or reject it.  So without knowing if the player is going to accept,  there is more way to say the decision has been  made unless they refuse to make an offer,  which seems very unlikely.  

Think this goes back to what I said about you speaking in opinion,  prediction,  logic, etc.  

[rmcjacket23]

14 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

First off, you don't know what I do and don't know, so don't pretend to. Before the off season I told this site that Devin Hester would be a Raven. I wonder how I knew?

You don't think that a billion dollar investment like the Ravens that hires a person in the capacity of being a cap guru has no idea about what potential market value is of certain players on their roster? You don't think the decision on KO was made prior to him leaving last off season?

All you need to do is look at logic. The Ravens drafted/signed THREE players that play the same position as Brandon Williams. Carl Davis, Willie Henry, and Micheal Pierce and those guys were all obtained within the past two off seasons. You can look at the kind of contract Damon Harrison got from the Giants last season and argue that Brandon Williams is pretty much the same player. Add in the fact that salaries tend to go up for guys in the primes of their careers and you got a potential 5 year $50 million contract on your hands. You think the Ravens are going to spend that after seeing the level of play they got out of Pierce last season and while getting a healthy Carl Davis and Willie Henry back?

They already have Rick Wagner's replacement on hand in Alex Lewis. I am certain the Ravens have a price point in mind for signing Wagner and if an offer comes in over that point they let him walk.

There is nothing baseless about my thought process and if you think this stuff hasn't already happened then why don't you offer me any information that supports your viewpoint rather than just aimlessly trying to shoot down my comment. Substance to the sizzle.

1. You knew because you read the speculation that existed for literally like months that he would be a Raven. That's nothing special. You were one of literally thousands of people who thought he would be a Raven. Quite literally nothing impressive by that.

2. Yes I do. We're not discussing whether our FO has an understanding of market value. We're discussing whether the FO has decided definitively whether they are going to offer a contract to said player or whether or not they're going to make an active effort to retain him. Just understanding market value doesn't get you to those decisions.

We know that every offseason the key FO personnel go down to Florida and have a lengthy meeting over multiple days about the direction of the team and what the FO wants to do in terms of personnel. That hasn't happened yet. Based on what John, Ozzie and others have told us about those meetings, those sessions generally start the building block for determining what players we want to keep, what players we want to let go, and what players we can attack in FA. Probably even some draft talk as well to a certain extent. Again, this meeting doesn't take place during the season, because, you know, there's football being played.

You also might want to go back and look at the roles and tasks of the players you are describing, because they don't play the same position. Carl Davis doesn't do the same things that Brandon Williams does. Michael Pierce does, but Carl Davis does not, and we have no idea what they think about Willie Henry who has shown nothing.

3. Actually I know that the decision with KO wasn't made until after the season, because they offered him a very substantial contract closer to when FA began. So they clearly didn't make a decision at the end of the season to let him walk, otherwise they wouldn't have offered him very good LT money to come back. That decision clearly evolved over the January/February window when teams typically make those kinds of decisions. 

4. Again, its an assumption that the FO thinks Alex Lewis is our new RT. There's no inside information or anything indicating this is the case... just speculation, which is pretty much all there is at this point.

I'm not pro or against signing or not signing either of those players, but it would seem that the now notorious Florida meeting at Steve's compound would be pretty pointless if you claim that they've already made all these decisions already.

Common sense and information we do have would say that's not the case. 

[rmw10]

43 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

The Ravens like their own players sometimes to a fault and they will believe they have the answer in house. I am not ignorant and I am not believing that a guy like Stephon Nembot will come off the practice squad and become a HOF tackle. I don't always write what my personal opinion is from my fan perspective. I write what I think is logic tells me will happen based on what I think the team is thinking. They like Skura.

You don't think this decision was made about Brandon Williams before this off season? Was drafting Carl Davis, Willie Henry, and picking up Micheal Pierce as an UDFA not enough evidence for you? The decision on Wagner was probably on hold until halfway through this season to see how he'd bounce back from his own lis franc injury. He had by all accounts a pretty good season. I personally think it would be a good move if the Ravens can afford to re-up him. I just think that there are some teams out there that know he's a good tackle and will pay him accordingly and the Ravens will move on.

I'll go a step further.  Can you even point to any article or tweet or any supporting documentation for the team liking Skura as much as you say they do?  I feel like that's in your head, because I did a little bit of digging and I can find very little on Matt Skura other than that we signed him.

No, that decision was not made.  Carl Davis was drafted as a DE and only played NT as an emergency option, and is not a similar player in any way.  Willie Henry is more like Timmy Jernigan, and also, not a similar player to Williams in any way.  There's absolutely no way they signed a UDFA and expected him to take over for Williams before the season.  Hell, I guarantee you didn't even know who Michael Pierce was before we signed him, because I sure didn't and I'm pretty big into the draft.