Next Up: Ravens Free Agents--Who goes? Who stays?

[52520Andrew]

1 hour ago, RayRayRaven said:

think they be same age at bout 33, birk is 40 nows and he we had him for 4 yrs. 2012 last yr.  got to exam mangold and sign the man. gotz to

 

3 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

In fairness though he was arguably the best and most consistent Center in the league for the better part of a decade. 

Multiple pro bowls and all pros. Not far removed from a very good year. Injury hurt him last year and an overall lack of talent on that OL. 

He could maintain. And even if he goes down some, there's a whole lot of possible downward movement in play that would still be well above average. 

And putting someone next to Yanda can really help a guy out. 

His intelligence and ability to lead won't diminish. His nasty attitude won't decline. Ability and athleticism may but we've seen OL play at a high level well into their 30's. 

Heck Birk was still playing at a high level aged 36+ and he wasn't as good as Mangold in their primes. 

And he fits the profile of what we're looking for on the OL. There's something to be said for a unified identity/mentality and style of play especially on the interior of the OL. 

 

Right player right price as always. But at 33 and coming off an injury he shouldn't be too expensive. And if not it shouldn't be too hard to upgrade on what we had at the position last year. 

I don't think anyone's expecting all pro Mangold. Just not getting pushed into Joe's lap on every 3rd down and tripping him, and letting our RBs get hit in the backfield every inside run Mangold. 

Thats not exactly a high expectation. 

1. Not every Center is Birk and can go until they are 36

2. You pay FAs for what they are going to do, not what they have done. 

3. You would be paying Mangold for what he is and he is only getting older.

4. Decline in play happens quick, look at Reed from 2011 to 2012 to 2013. I am sure plenty of people thought he would be a good fit in Houston, this rings those same warning bells.

5. If you are Mangold, why the heck would you take less than half of what you are used to making and risk your body at 33? Maybe with a contender after rotting on the Jets but we have too many holes to seriously compete for a Lombardi trophy right now. Good luck trying to convince him we are that team that is going to win it all within a couple years after missing the playoffs 3 of the last 4 years.

6. If all you want is for them to not stink, just start Urschel instead of shelling out about 5-6 mil per year at least(I mean Reed got 5 mil per after his 2012 season) on Mangold. Or better yet draft someone although at this rate we may have to double dip if we don't want to see Hurst out at RT again and if we have any injuries... yikes.

7. Have not heard anything about the Ravens being interested in Mangold from any reputable sources, if there were something imminent we would have heard something.

[lgcs27288]

50 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

 

5. If you are Mangold, why the heck would you take less than half of what you are used to making and risk your body at 33?

For the love of the game man, for the love of the game...

[Tank 92]

Not sure what the plan is at C, but I'm fairly confident there is a solid one that the Ravens are committed to. Obviously if there weren't they wouldn't have parted with Zuttah. It's too important of a position to just leave flapping in the wind. 

[reed20]

Go after mangold!

Edited March 16 by reed20

[ant2ney]

I'm wondering if the plan for at least one of the vacant OL spots is one of the developmental guys on the roster/ PS such as Skura/ Nembot/ Wesley. Maybe even Jensen/ Urschel but I would have expected more playing time for them at this point if that were the case. Hopefully James Hurst is not in the reckoning, he doesn't even give me confidence as a back up. 

 

I remember before the 2014 season there was a lot of concern about the vacant RT spot before Wagner was installed as the starter.

[Kid87]

Anybody know what's up with Claiborne? Is that why we trade zuttah? 

[BmoreBird22]

I just can't think that the Ravens don't have something up their sleeves with the Zuttah trade. 

They just restructured Pitta (I understand it was a needed move, anyway, but still) and they trade Zuttah six days into FA without making a corresponding OL move. That's really weird to trade someone that far into FA when most big names are off the market and you have no contingency plan. 

They clearly liked Zuttah enough to hang onto him and not let him go early to get a good jump in FA, but why wait so long? Unless trade negotiations really took that long, but given the price, I doubt it.

[ellicottraven]

19 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I just can't think that the Ravens don't have something up their sleeves with the Zuttah trade. 

They just restructured Pitta (I understand it was a needed move, anyway, but still) and they trade Zuttah six days into FA without making a corresponding OL move. That's really weird to trade someone that far into FA when most big names are off the market and you have no contingency plan. 

They clearly liked Zuttah enough to hang onto him and not let him go early to get a good jump in FA, but why wait so long? Unless trade negotiations really took that long, but given the price, I doubt it.

I believe the Ravens have a clear plan that we aren't privy to. I am baffled at the move with no corresponding move to supplement the loss. So here's my theory. Either the Ravens believe they're going to get somebody from another team in a trade or have intelligence that a certain player is a potential cut they can target, it is weird. I don't think either Urschel or Jensen are upgrades to Zuttah. In fact an argument can be made they're downgrades. The offense is essentially empty. No replacements for SSS, Wagner, Juice and now Zuttah. We'll see what moves they make over the next few days...

'

[Purple_City39]

3 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

I believe the Ravens have a clear plan that we aren't privy to. I am baffled at the move with no corresponding move to supplement the loss. So here's my theory. Either the Ravens believe they're going to get somebody from another team in a trade or have intelligence that a certain player is a potential cut they can target, it is weird. I don't think either Urschel or Jensen are upgrades to Zuttah. In fact an argument can be made they're downgrades. The offense is essentially empty. No replacements for SSS, Wagner, Juice and now Zuttah. We'll see what moves they make over the next few days...

'

Everything going on, to me, looks like the Ravens are purely focused on the run.  On both sides of the ball.  We sign a great in the box safety and re-sign our NT, while letting the RT who was an excellent pass blocker go because he wasn't a strong run blocker.  And now trading the center who go zero push in the run game.

I'm going to guess that Jensen ends up the starting center because he's considered a "mauler".  I know a lot of people remember that one play, but run blocking is pretty much his main strength..

My main question is RT.  I really don't know much about Wesly or Nembot, and Alex Lewis is essentially  Rick Wagner-lite if moved to RT, but way cheaper

[purpletide]

2 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

I believe the Ravens have a clear plan that we aren't privy to. I am baffled at the move with no corresponding move to supplement the loss. So here's my theory. Either the Ravens believe they're going to get somebody from another team in a trade or have intelligence that a certain player is a potential cut they can target, it is weird. I don't think either Urschel or Jensen are upgrades to Zuttah. In fact an argument can be made they're downgrades. The offense is essentially empty. No replacements for SSS, Wagner, Juice and now Zuttah. We'll see what moves they make over the next few days...

'

You think this makes us more likely to overpay someone if we're looking for someone that could get cut? I only say so because we might not want to leave empty handed after relying on no one else picking them up.

[ellicottraven]

2 minutes ago, purpletide said:

You think this makes us more likely to overpay someone if we're looking for someone that could get cut? I only say so because we might not want to leave empty handed after relying on no one else picking them up.

Short answer I really don't know. But, my guess is the front office especially Eric DeCosta has a good sense of other team's rosters and is very adept at projecting where teams may make their cuts. So my guess is the Ravens are confident that the losses can very easily be supplemented with cuts from other teams or in the worst case scenario they've a trade situation figured out if neither cuts or the draft work out.

[purpletide]

1 minute ago, ellicottraven said:

Short answer I really don't know. But, my guess is the front office especially Eric DeCosta has a good sense of other team's rosters and is very adept at projecting where teams may make their cuts. So my guess is the Ravens are confident that the losses can very easily be supplemented with cuts from other teams or in the worst case scenario they've a trade situation figured out if neither cuts or the draft work out.

In Ozzie (& DeCosta) we trust

[iceripper]

I hope we sign a veteran DL. Guy's gone and I don't trust Kafusi or Urban. Ricky Jean-François would be a nice signing.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

9 hours ago, 52520Andrew said:

 

1. Not every Center is Birk and can go until they are 36

2. You pay FAs for what they are going to do, not what they have done. 

3. You would be paying Mangold for what he is and he is only getting older.

4. Decline in play happens quick, look at Reed from 2011 to 2012 to 2013. I am sure plenty of people thought he would be a good fit in Houston, this rings those same warning bells.

5. If you are Mangold, why the heck would you take less than half of what you are used to making and risk your body at 33? Maybe with a contender after rotting on the Jets but we have too many holes to seriously compete for a Lombardi trophy right now. Good luck trying to convince him we are that team that is going to win it all within a couple years after missing the playoffs 3 of the last 4 years.

6. If all you want is for them to not stink, just start Urschel instead of shelling out about 5-6 mil per year at least(I mean Reed got 5 mil per after his 2012 season) on Mangold. Or better yet draft someone although at this rate we may have to double dip if we don't want to see Hurst out at RT again and if we have any injuries... yikes.

7. Have not heard anything about the Ravens being interested in Mangold from any reputable sources, if there were something imminent we would have heard something.

Comparing Reed, at a position like safety, whose game was based on an exceptional amount of athleticism, acceleration, flat out speed to close distance, etc... to a center isnt a viable comparison. The amount of DBs who've played at a high level well into their 30's and the number of OL that have done it isnt even comparable. Dont understand the Reed anecdote in the slightest.

No, not every Center is Birk... but not every player falls off a cliff either.

No one is suggesting to pay him for what he's done. Exactly, you pay him for what he is which is a 33 year old center coming back from injury. If he costs $5-6m per year, no you prob dont sign him. But i dont know who is going to pay him that at this point in FA.

If you're Mangold you take less than youre used to making because no one is going to pay you what youre used to making. If you want to continue playing (which hes stated emphatically that he does) then you have to accept what your market says youre worth. If thats within our price range, i expect us to at least make a call.

And going to contenders is great and all, but a contender has to want you. This may shock a lot of Ravens fans, but i guarantee many around the league view us as close to contending.... and consider this a great organization to play for. I honestly dont think it takes all that much convincing -- we were 2 inches from making the playoffs last year, decimated by injuries the year before, and had the eventual SB champs dead to rights the year prior. This whole 3 of last 4 years sounds horrible out of context, but as is usual... context tells a slightly different story.

Solid OL play and a consistent run game last year and we were a contender. So if you think you could be the player to solidify the line, and spark the run game.... stands to reason you see it as a good team going forward.

 

I dont want them just not to stink. I was using the opposite extreme to highlight the hyperbole in using the other extreme of expecting Mangold to be an all pro at this point. If hes not stinking hes an upgrade. And I happen to think that within the identity we're going for on the OL he can still be a very solid and productive player. One that can battle big DT's and generate good push in the run game, call out protections to help Joe and the entire OL. Theres a lot of value in your C being a very intelligent leader and student of the game.

I would also recommend drafting someone to groom for future. But plugging in a solid, stop gap vet means you dont have to reach or force the pick. If the pick isnt there this draft you still have time. Also doesnt force an unready rookie to step in year 1.

And, no i dont view Urschel as an acceptable alternative. Thats a less experienced Zuttah. We dont need another undersized, athletic technician. We need a powerful, sturdy, gritty anchor. Urschel is not a fit for what they say they want on the OL, especially at the C position. Jensen maybe, but definitely not Urschel.

 

And I never suggested anything was imminent. I havent heard a single report of anyone active with Mangold. Hes a 33 year old vet who just got cut from his only NFL team. My guess is he's taking time away with family and to evaluate his next stop. Probably also still recovering from injury. My guess is when he's ready his agent will announce it to teams and we'll start to hear some news on potential fits...

Hes not a guy thats likely to sign early in FA, especially when everyones taking cheap 1 year deals at this point. He's likely going to sit back, relax, and wait til after the draft or closer to TC when the entire picture of who needs a vet C becomes clear.... maybe some injuries occur and more teams are in the bidding so he can get max dollar for himself.

Until then itll be quiet. And idk that we'll be interested anyways. People saying Mangold would be nice is not equivalent to "I know the Ravens will sign Mangold." 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

31 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

I believe the Ravens have a clear plan that we aren't privy to. I am baffled at the move with no corresponding move to supplement the loss. So here's my theory. Either the Ravens believe they're going to get somebody from another team in a trade or have intelligence that a certain player is a potential cut they can target, it is weird. I don't think either Urschel or Jensen are upgrades to Zuttah. In fact an argument can be made they're downgrades. The offense is essentially empty. No replacements for SSS, Wagner, Juice and now Zuttah. We'll see what moves they make over the next few days...

'

I wouldnt say we havent replaced any of the offensive losses. It's clear to me they want a change of identity on offense, so it may not be like for like replacements, but there are options for replacing the production.

I see a combo of Perriman and Camp being the SSS replacements. Of course that requires faith that both will stay healthy, but the hope is with a TC Perriman takes the next step and instead of just being an occasional big play threat he becomes more of an overall threat and primary option. Camp becomes your underneath, move the chains guy with big YAC ability.

Not to mention the depth of TEs. I fully expect more use of multi TE sets. With Roman taking over as TE coach i expect one of his main tasks being to develop packages and game plans that will implement more of them and their unique skill sets. There's a reason they brought in a guy with as much experience as Roman and put him on TEs by title imo.

Woodhead is your Juice replacement. Great pass blocker, and likely a better option running the ball and catching. Lose some in run blocking, but theyre expecting to make up for that with a change in philosophy on the OL along with more size and push.

The OL is obviously the big question right now and thats fair. But, we've now seen several cost cutting moves in a row (Webb, taking away 2 RFA tenders, and Zuttah) without a correlating spend. There's a plan here. And they're confident in it. Either they're supremely confident that a guy like Wesley can step in at RT or Jensen/Skura can take over at C.... or we're going to see a move.

Im not worried about RT in the slightest. That will work itself out -- theres just so many ways we could go about it, whether Wesley, Hurst, Nembot just steps in, Yanda/Lewis kicks out and we upgrade at G, or FA/draft.

C to me is the issue that needs to be addressed. If they think Skura can step in and be an upgrade, then im confident until proven otherwise. They know more about him than i do certainly. If not, the plan will unfold.

Just requires some patience and trust.

 

[purpletide]

5 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I wouldnt say we havent replaced any of the offensive losses. It's clear to me they want a change of identity on offense, so it may not be like for like replacements, but there are options for replacing the production.

I see a combo of Perriman and Camp being the SSS replacements. Of course that requires faith that both will stay healthy, but the hope is with a TC Perriman takes the next step and instead of just being an occasional big play threat he becomes more of an overall threat and primary option. Camp becomes your underneath, move the chains guy with big YAC ability.

Not to mention the depth of TEs. I fully expect more use of multi TE sets. With Roman taking over as TE coach i expect one of his main tasks being to develop packages and game plans that will implement more of them and their unique skill sets. There's a reason they brought in a guy with as much experience as Roman and put him on TEs by title imo.

Woodhead is your Juice replacement. Great pass blocker, and likely a better option running the ball and catching. Lose some in run blocking, but theyre expecting to make up for that with a change in philosophy on the OL along with more size and push.

The OL is obviously the big question right now and thats fair. But, we've now seen several cost cutting moves in a row (Webb, taking away 2 RFA tenders, and Zuttah) without a correlating spend. There's a plan here. And they're confident in it. Either they're supremely confident that a guy like Wesley can step in at RT or Jensen/Skura can take over at C.... or we're going to see a move.

Im not worried about RT in the slightest. That will work itself out -- theres just so many ways we could go about it, whether Wesley, Hurst, Nembot just steps in, Yanda/Lewis kicks out and we upgrade at G, or FA/draft.

C to me is the issue that needs to be addressed. If they think Skura can step in and be an upgrade, then im confident until proven otherwise. They know more about him than i do certainly. If not, the plan will unfold.

Just requires some patience and trust.

 

I've heard of possibly making Jensen the center as a "mauler". Yeah it's way too early to count us out on anything, but it seems as though we're trying to get back to running the ball, in which I 100% support this new direction if so.

[Alexir]

Nick Mangold is washed up, did you see him play last year?

[BmoreBird22]

1 minute ago, Alexir said:

Nick Mangold is washed up, did you see him play last year?

Last two years, really.

I don't think people watch the Jets, so they go off of the name more than the player's play.

[Halshayeji]

13 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

The Colts did that last year, I believe. Alex Mack went at pick 21. I'm sure the Colts and Browns aren't sweating that decision or upset with it at all.

There's also Mike and Maurkice Pouncey (15 and 18) recently.

All have paid off in major dividends for their drafted teams.

They did indeed pay dividents but keep in mind, all of the players you listed really lit it up in college. No C in this class is as physically gifted and NFL ready as the likes of Pouncy and Mack. 

[Halshayeji]

1 hour ago, purpletide said:

I've heard of possibly making Jensen the center as a "mauler". Yeah it's way too early to count us out on anything, but it seems as though we're trying to get back to running the ball, in which I 100% support this new direction if so.

I also support the new direction but id be terrified if Jensen started at C lol

[purpletide]

1 minute ago, Halshayeji said:

I also support the new direction but id be terrified if Jensen started at C lol

Yeah I think we have a lot to go to definitively say that we'll be throwing guys wherever we have needs but I think we'll work with what we got/get the best we can.

[Halshayeji]

1 hour ago, iceripper said:

I hope we sign a veteran DL. Guy's gone and I don't trust Kafusi or Urban. Ricky Jean-François would be a nice signing.

Losing guy was an underrated loss but we have Bwill and Jernigan locked in as starters. I want to see Urban, Pierce, Davis, Lewis, and Kafusi kill each other for playing time. I also would love to see Judon play DE on obvious passing downs or DT with jernigan when we line up in a 4-3 set. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Last two years, really.

I don't think people watch the Jets, so they go off of the name more than the player's play.

Its not about name for me. Its considering context and seeing if it could be justification for a dip in play.

Their OL went from a team strength to losing some quality vets. Injury and general wear/tear last year. No QB play, and vastly different running styles from one year to the next. Went from Chris Ivory whose game fit Mangolds better, to Forte who's better running outside and receiving which is going to require your interior guys to get out in space some which isnt Mangolds strength, especially at this age.

I still think if he's healthy, which of course is a question, and surrounded by better talent in an offense that will suit what he can still do (which disguises his limited mobility/athleticism and lets him use his power/physicality) you can get quality play. 

I dont view him as necessarily a much better player than Zuttah at this point, but i see a much better fit for what we're hopefully trying to do with the interior OL. Bigger, stronger, better run blocker. Playing alongside Yanda and young talented guys on his left side should only help salvage what hes got left.

Its slim pickings at this point and imo the biggest hole on the team, where improved play could provide the biggest impact. The player profile and strengths fit, and the weaknesses also arent as big a concern.

 

Chan Gailey ran a spread offense. Very limited TE use and lots of 3, 4, and 5 wide. No ground and pound, and very little help blocking from TEs and backs. Add that to an overall deficiency of talent on the OL and it was never going made that OL look good. And it didnt suit Mangold at all. I really dont think its an accurate depiction of what he may have left.

It was stretch zone running, very limited inside zone, gap or power blocking.... which i see us implementing. Gaileys system requires athletic, movement blockers; which is exactly what we're transitioning away from and looking for more power, mauling blockers - which Mangold has been.

 

Not saying hes still a great player, or that its not possible he has declined big time. But i also dont think itd be smart to write him off just bc he didnt look great in a spread, tempo offense.

Edited March 16 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[BmoreBird22]

2 hours ago, Halshayeji said:

They did indeed pay dividents but keep in mind, all of the players you listed really lit it up in college. No C in this class is as physically gifted and NFL ready as the likes of Pouncy and Mack. 

I'd have to agree. I don't want a center in the first. I'd grab Elfein in the third, but he's not the nasty, physical player the Ravens want. Just not the Ravens year in the draft.

[The Raven]

I don't know if anyone say Juice's tweet about Zuttah joining him in San Fran, but it alluded to the "#widezone."

I think that's a clear as day indication that we're moving far, far away from the stretch zone.

[trevorsteadman]

1 minute ago, The Raven said:

I don't know if anyone say Juice's tweet about Zuttah joining him in San Fran, but it alluded to the "#widezone."

I think that's a clear as day indication that we're moving far, far away from the stretch zone.

From what the front office has said it sounds like the Ravens want to be a downhill, big bruising, running team. Which means the team needs a bigger RT and C who can actually push forward. And it makes sense the Ravens have West and Dixon who are able to break tackles and push piles. The team needs more of those 4-5 yard runs on first down. Too many 3rd and longs last year.

[berad]

6 minutes ago, The Raven said:

I don't know if anyone say Juice's tweet about Zuttah joining him in San Fran, but it alluded to the "#widezone."

I think that's a clear as day indication that we're moving far, far away from the stretch zone.

 

3 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

From what the front office has said it sounds like the Ravens want to be a downhill, big bruising, running team. Which means the team needs a bigger RT and C who can actually push forward. And it makes sense the Ravens have West and Dixon who are able to break tackles and push piles. The team needs more of those 4-5 yard runs on first down. Too many 3rd and longs last year.

I remember Harbaugh voicing some complaints that NFL rules would prohibit in-line cut blocking (or something like that) which would hinder their zone scheme. Couple that with Kubiak leaving and the OL hasn't been as effective.

[Cawtious]

25 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

From what the front office has said it sounds like the Ravens want to be a downhill, big bruising, running team. Which means the team needs a bigger RT and C who can actually push forward. And it makes sense the Ravens have West and Dixon who are able to break tackles and push piles. The team needs more of those 4-5 yard runs on first down. Too many 3rd and longs last year.

I can see Jensen fitting into that scheme when he's 317-320.  I am not sure Urschel will fit into that mold.  Mangold is not what he used to be physically, but that's understandable.  Jensen is an excellent run blocker.  If anything when he was playing guard, he would get to the gap a little too quickly looking to get downfield and  block at the second level.  His problem is definitely not aggression.  He finishes blocks with attitude.  You don't see him jogging behind plays....he's up field looking to do damage.  I like his potential.  I think Roman will like it as well.

He and TJ Lang had the same OL coach in college (Symington).  I think he's an underrated player and I think he'll give any rookie and/or Urschel a run for their money during camp. 

Man vs. Man.  May the best man win.

[The Raven]

4 minutes ago, Cawtious said:

I can see Jensen fitting into that scheme when he's 317-320.  I am not sure Urschel will fit into that mold.  Mangold is not what he used to be physically, but that's understandable.  Jensen is an excellent run blocker.  If anything when he was playing guard, he would get to the gap a little too quickly looking to get downfield and  block at the second level.  His problem is definitely not aggression.  He finishes blocks with attitude.  You don't see him jogging behind plays....he's up field looking to do damage.  I like his potential.  I think Roman will like it as well.

He and TJ Lang had the same OL coach in college (Symington).  I think he's an underrated player and I think he'll give any rookie and/or Urschel a run for their money during camp. 

Man vs. Man.  May the best man win.

You got that right. That's music to an olineman's ears.

[ellicottraven]

I just got a notification stating we've signed CB Brandon Carr to a 4 yr deal? Bye bye Claiborne??