Next Up: Ravens Free Agents--Who goes? Who stays?

[January J]

20 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

He signed a 1 year $2.75 million contract with the Detroit Lions.

He caught 67 passes for 584 yards and 8TDs. That does work out to a pretty paltry and career low 8.7 yards a catch, but you aren't grabbing him to be a big play home run hitter. You're getting him to move the chains and catch those short redzone TD passes and he's proven once again he can still get it done. I think 8TDs for receiving would have led the Ravens?

Exactly- and Yep by far- Mr Sr. Led the team with 5. 

Plus we all know how how Joe likes those big body receivers who fight for YAC on third down. And we've seen what they can do together. I mean its certainly a thought- and he'd have to show he still had it next year in camp and earn the spot. I think its worth considering. I know most fans would love to have him back and welcome him with open arms. Would also soften the blow of steve leaving. I just think if we go the route of drafting another youngster then its not a bad idea to bring in another proven vet to fill the void left by Steve. Anquan also brings some fire of his own. He brings excitement; He's fierce and a great redzone target- which is where we tend to struggle.

Edited January 4 by January J

[EdTheMythicalOne]

First thing's first, want to give a shout out to rmw10

He made the OP and the template here I used for my response to him.

Unrestricted FAs:

1.  Kamar Aiken WR - GONE: I agree with the OP on some points, but I don't think he's better than the opportunity given to him this year, he simply wasn't the best option when everyone else is healthy.

2.  Vladimir Ducasse OG - GONE: While he might be cheap he will still get a certain minimum for being a veteran and he was a street free agent signing for us. There's better talent out there and possibly cheaper and we might have some options in house like Broxton or Skura.

3.  Matt Elam S - GONE: Dude has already had MORE than enough chances to prove he can hang and he didn't stay healthy and when he did play he was a train wreck. The ONLY reason he would stay is because somebody is trying to prove they didn't whiff on him. Useless player. Can't cover, can't tackle.

4.  Lawrence Guy DE/DT - GONE: I like him for all the reasons the OP gave, but he will be due a raise and we've already got bodies behind him in Carl Davis, Timmy Jernigan, and Brent Urban.

5.  Kyle Juszczyk FB - STAY: Nobody will value him like we do and I don't think his contract will break our bank.

6.  Anthony Levine S/DB- GONE: Sure we like his versatility but he was hampered by toe injuries all season long. Versatile only wins you a job while you're cheap. Once you start costing money you're cut bait and the team will look to skew younger and possibly faster here.

7.  Chris Lewis-Harris CB-  STAY: Made some plays and held his own. He'll get a shot to stick because we're cutting a lot of other bait at this position.

8.  Ryan Mallett QB -   GONE: The walking headache inducer will have to ply his trade elsewhere and we'll look to pick up a veteran cast off on the cheap and hope and pray Joe never gets hurt.

9.  Jerraud Powers CB -  GONE: He was nothing special to begin with and proved he was nothing special here. Couldn't cover the slot and that's precisely why we got him. Buh-bye.

10.  Rick Wagner OT -  GONE: Somebody will pay him, we won't. We've got Alex Lewis waiting in the wings and the team loves him.

11. Brandon Williams NT/DT-  GONE: For some reason DT's like Brandon Williams who make tackles and play against the run pretty well but don't record sacks got HUGE contracts last off season. By Brandon. They drafted your replacement three times over in Carl Davis, Willie Henry, and Micheal Pierce.

 

Restricted FAs:

1.  Michael Campanaro WR/KR/PR - STAY: They'll take another chance on his health because of his potential to be that Wes Welker guy for us and he is right now the leading candidate for the return job unless Keenan Reynolds takes it away from him.

2.  Marqueston Huff S - STAY: We're cutting bait with some of the older and underwhelming guys on this team. He's cheap and showed up a few times. Good enough.

3.  James Hurst OT -  GONE: He's gotten opportunities at both tackle positions and has looked absolutely horrible in just about every showing. He got Flacco's knee destroyed.

4.  Ryan Jensen OG - GONE: Been around for a few years, looked okay at times, looked bad at times. Had a chance to start at G and the team decided to go with Vlad Ducasse. THAT tells you all you need to know.

5.  Zach Orr MLB -   STAY: Absolutely stay. You can pencil him in as a starter and you can always try to improve the position through the draft or with another FA signing, but he provided exactly what we needed along side of Mosley. A guy that can cover, make some turnovers, and he's not a turnstile against the run, but he could use a little beefing up.

6.  Chris Matthews WR - GONE: Never did much of anything, was on IR all season. We're going in another direction.

7.  Jumal Rolle DB -   GONE: Hurt too often. Need to be healthy to stay on a roster.

8.  Terrance West  RB - STAY: Was the #1 until Dixon was healthy and then outperformed him in the second half. Still a good 1-2 punch. Needs to understand his role next season. Good back up plan if Dixon breaks down.

 

Cuts:

1. Kyle Arrington CB - Was terrible before he got hurt, now is hurt. Gone.

2. Elvis Dumervil OLB - There's a chance he might be back, but they'll restructure him if anything. We need talent here and he's got it if healthy.

3. Kendrick Lewis S - Gone. Useless player for us.

4. Dennis Pitta TE - He's not getting cut. He might take a pay cut, but no way the team is going to cut the only guy Flacco has any chemistry with at all.

5. Ben Watson TE - Luckily for us Pitta was healthy, but I liked the signing at the time. Now, we don't need him. We have younger and hopefully healthier talent.

6. Shareece Wright CB - I lamented at the time of his big contract that this was a half-year wonder that parlayed that into a big contract and then he came back down to reality. He's gone due to the emergence of Tavon Young. Team will still be looking elsewhere to revamp secondary.

 

Extensions:

1. Mike Wallace WR - I think some sort of negotiation is done here to free up some money. He may not be the Pittsburgh version of himself, but he has proven that at times he can make something out of nothing and can hit a home run. As long as we use him properly and don't depend on him as THE guy, we'll get good value out of him.

2. Lardarius Webb S - He was actually serviceable as a safety and performed about as well as I expected. There's a chance in another year at playing the position for the first time since his college days that he will be a bit better. Money is a factor, but also the fact that we have absolutely nothing waiting in the wings behind him is also a major factor.

Edited January 4 by EdTheMythicalOne

[ludy51]

Just now, EdTheMythicalOne said:

Unrestricted FAs:

 

10.  Rick Wagner OT -  GONE: Somebody will pay him, we won't. We've got Alex Lewis waiting in the wings and the team loves him.

11. Brandon Williams NT/DT-  GONE: For some reason DT's like Brandon Williams who make tackles and play against the run pretty well but don't record sacks got HUGE contracts last off season. By Brandon. They drafted your replacement three times over in Carl Davis, Willie Henry, and Micheal Pierce.

No way do we let both Brandon and Wagner walk. Most likely (IMO) we keep Wagner. But I guarantee we keep at least one of the two.

[lgcs27288]

2 minutes ago, ludy51 said:

No way do we let both Brandon and Wagner walk. Most likely (IMO) we keep Wagner. But I guarantee we keep at least one of the two.

It just depends on the offers they receive.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

18 minutes ago, January J said:

Exactly- and Yep by far- Mr Sr. Led the team with 5. 

Plus we all know how how Joe likes those big body receivers who fight for YAC on third down. And we've seen what they can do together. I mean its certainly a thought- and he'd have to show he still had it next year in camp and earn the spot. I think its worth considering. I know most fans would love to have him back and welcome him with open arms. Would also soften the blow of steve leaving. I just think if we go the route of drafting another youngster then its not a bad idea to bring in another proven vet to fill the void left by Steve. Anquan also brings some fire of his own. He brings excitement; He's fierce and a great redzone target- which is where we tend to struggle.

He fights for the ball is the main thing. I don't see anyone outside of Smith who did this, and even he wasn't always that great at it. I saw it far too often with other guys that go, "Oops. overthrown, well, I am not gonna catch it so I will just coast and....whoa! Interception?! What?" When all they had to do was keep running the route and stick their hands up at least and they prevent an INT. Ain't nobody beating Boldin for a pass.

[ludy51]

4 minutes ago, lgcs27288 said:

It just depends on the offers they receive.

I think it's safe to assume Wagner will get something similar to what Mitchell Schwartz got from KC.

Brandon will at a minimum, get what Damon Harrison got from NYG.

Edited January 4 by ludy51

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, ludy51 said:

I think it's safe to assume Wagner will get something similar to what Mitchell Schwartz got from ATL.

Brandon will at a minimum, get what Damon Harrison got from NYG.

Alex Mack to ATL, Schwartz to KC

[ludy51]

2 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Alex Mack to ATL, Schwartz to KC

Good catch.

I just assumed both were signed by the Falcons. My mistake

Edited January 4 by ludy51

[EdTheMythicalOne]

Just now, ludy51 said:

I think it's safe to assume Wagner will get something similar to what Mitchell Schwartz got from ATL.

Brandon will at a minimum, get what Damon Harrison got from NYG.

Yeap, Damon Harrison is exactly what I pictured when I mentioned DT's that don't have spectacular numbers getting PAID. The New York Football Giants paid him a 5 year $46,250,000 contract. If we didn't already have Willie Henry, Carl Davis, and Micheal Pierce in the house as his replacement(s) then maybe they try to get it done. There was a time and place for the great Haloti Ngata to walk as well. Unlike Ngata, I don't think Williams is running out of gas, I just simply think it is economics and what we have on hand.

Wagner played well enough for other people to notice him. He'll get paid. Just like Williams, the Ravens have somebody they like and think is actually a better RT than LG in Alex Lewis. They'll be happy to save millions at go with Lewis while trying to develop some other guys like Broxton or Nembot and take another shot at an OL later on in the draft.

[PurpleCity5]

3 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

Unrestricted FAs:

2.  Vladimir Ducasse OG - GONE: While he might be cheap he will still get a certain minimum for being a veteran and he was a street free agent signing for us. There's better talent out there and possibly cheaper and we might have some options in house like Broxton or Skura.

4.  Lawrence Guy DE/DT - GONE: I like him for all the reasons the OP gave, but he will be due a raise and we've already got bodies behind him in Carl Davis, Timmy Jernigan, and Brent Urban.

6.  Anthony Levine S/DB- GONE: Sure we like his versatility but he was hampered by toe injuries all season long. Versatile only wins you a job while you're cheap. Once you start costing money you're cut bait and the team will look to skew younger and possibly faster here.

 

9.  Jerraud Powers CB -  GONE: He was nothing special to begin with and proved he was nothing special here. Couldn't cover the slot and that's precisely why we got him. Buh-bye.

10.  Rick Wagner OT -  GONE: Somebody will pay him, we won't. We've got Alex Lewis waiting in the wings and the team loves him.

 

4. Dennis Pitta TE - He's not getting cut. He might take a pay cut, but no way the team is going to cut the only guy Flacco has any chemistry with at all.

 

 

 

In my opinion, Wagner is the top priority, he played like a beast and RTs don't usually get paid a whole lot compared to other positions on the line, I don't think you can anticipate Wagner getting a gigantic pay day. 

Guy is totally underrated and I don't think he's getting paid. Hes an under the radar type of guy, some teams might take notice but I don't think a lot will. 

Vlad had some good games and I think he settled down a bit, I personally think he should just be a back up. That won't cost much at all. A cheap price to pay for something that we could really use. 

Levine is an ace in ST and has some packages on the defense, yeah we rarely see them but they're there. Should be another cheap sign. 

Pitta has to go, Joe relies way to much on him and it doesn't allow him to go through his reads. Now I think you labeled him as a cut but said that there's no way he's leaving and I don't think that's the case. The numbers don't tell the story but for the most part he was pretty ineffective. Cut Pitta and force Joe to stay in the pocket and target guys like Perriman or Waller. I view Pitta as a TC cut tbh. 

[Purple_City39]

1 hour ago, January J said:

What about Boldin himself? I believe he's a FA...he seems to still be producing...would it hurt to bring him in on a 1 year deal and draft another youngster to develop? I don't see much downside- and I'm sure he'd highly consider a Baltimore reunion.

1)Wallace 2)Perriman 3) Boldin 4) Rookie x  5)campanaro 6)moore

doesnt sound like a bad corps..and you could actually afford to bring in another vet as well in that case.  How about:

1) Wallace 2) Garcon 3) Boldin 4)  Perriman 5) Rookie x 6) Campanaro 7) Moore

that would be 3 burners - 2 possession receivers and 2 potential slot receivers. Just a thought. Depending on perrimans development ofcourse he could work his way up- but I think he might still be just 1 year away. So a 1 year stop gap in a vet such as Boldin may not be a bad idea. Then again I really should've done my homework first BC I'm not even sure if he's available.

I think the Ravens need to stop putting all their eggs in the free agent WR basket and actually learn to develop their own.  Perriman has a ton of potential and has yet to have a true offseason.  He will grow from that also but having him be #3 behind 4 older WRs (the 2nd option) wouldn't help that growth either.

I'd rather see the Ravens make him the #1 or #2 and see what he can do in 2017 as opposed to waiting until the last year of his deal to watch him break out and go somewhere else (see Kruger, McPhee, etc).  All that said, Option 1 I'd be fine with minus the fact I really don't think Boldin should come back

[EdTheMythicalOne]

Just now, PurpleCity5 said:

In my opinion, Wagner is the top priority, he played like a beast and RTs don't usually get paid a whole lot compared to other positions on the line, I don't think you can anticipate Wagner getting a gigantic pay day. 

Guy is totally underrated and I don't think he's getting paid. Hes an under the radar type of guy, some teams might take notice but I don't think a lot will. 

Vlad had some good games and I think he settled down a bit, I personally think he should just be a back up. That won't cost much at all. A cheap price to pay for something that we could really use. 

Levine is an ace in ST and has some packages on the defense, yeah we rarely see them but they're there. Should be another cheap sign. 

Pitta has to go, Joe relies way to much on him and it doesn't allow him to go through his reads. Now I think you labeled him as a cut but said that there's no way he's leaving and I don't think that's the case. The numbers don't tell the story but for the most part he was pretty ineffective. Cut Pitta and force Joe to stay in the pocket and target guys like Perriman or Waller. I view Pitta as a TC cut tbh. 

Offensive Linemen that are good get paid. Who would think that a LG like Osemele or that Yanda would be making so much as Gaurds. RTs get paid too. And Wagner will. It is also about trade offs. The team loves Alex Lewis. Alex Lewis is cheap. What drop off in production do you get with Alex Lewis at RT for dirt cheap as compared to Rick Wagner at RT for millions of dollars? That's the gamble, one the Ravens will take.

I agree with you and I like Guy. Again, it is value for dollar. Guy doesn't do anything that another person couldn't do. You could plug in guys you already have on the roster and get the same production. Guy is entitled to a certain dollar amount simply because he is a veteran.

Vlad can't pass protect to save his life and he got the job for his run blocking....and we didn't run the dang ball. But, when we did run the ball we ran better because he was in there at RG. He is cheap, but you can get cheaper, younger, and better with a draft choice or with somebody else already on the roster.

Levine is nothing special. He's a special teams ace...so what? Get somebody else that is an athletic safety that can actually tackle and they'll be our next ST ace. You have to remember VALUE. We can get somebody to do the same things he does for cheaper. Even if it is for a little bit cheaper.

Pitta may or may not be the curse/plague we all think he is, but he's the only proven TE with hands we have that knows how to get open. Waller doesn't get open and drops the ball. Watson will be cut. Maxx Williams showed some flashes, but he got hurt. Boyle is a blocking TE that won't do anything better than Pitta other than block, and Crockett Gillmore is all banged up and may never be the same. Pitta is the best TE we have regardless of what fans think about him.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

4 minutes ago, Purple_City39 said:

I think the Ravens need to stop putting all their eggs in the free agent WR basket and actually learn to develop their own.  Perriman has a ton of potential and has yet to have a true offseason.  He will grow from that also but having him be #3 behind 4 older WRs (the 2nd option) wouldn't help that growth either.

I'd rather see the Ravens make him the #1 or #2 and see what he can do in 2017 as opposed to waiting until the last year of his deal to watch him break out and go somewhere else (see Kruger, McPhee, etc).  All that said, Option 1 I'd be fine with minus the fact I really don't think Boldin should come back

That's all on Perriman. You can't just "make a guy" be a #1 receiver if he can't get open and can't catch the football.

Boldin wouldn't be ahead of anyone. He'd be a sub in package guy for third downs and short yardage redzone plays. If you need him to step up into something more than that, he can.

Funny how people that slobber all over Aiken who think he's Boldin, don't want Boldin who actually is Boldin and does things Boldin does that Aiken never did.

[codizzle]

Ravens need to make OL number one priority.. resign Wagner and land a center through draft. I personally would like to see them draft one high if there isn't a pass rusher available in first two rounds 

[rmcjacket23]

13 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

Offensive Linemen that are good get paid. Who would think that a LG like Osemele or that Yanda would be making so much as Gaurds. RTs get paid too. And Wagner will. It is also about trade offs. The team loves Alex Lewis. Alex Lewis is cheap. What drop off in production do you get with Alex Lewis at RT for dirt cheap as compared to Rick Wagner at RT for millions of dollars? That's the gamble, one the Ravens will take.

I agree with you and I like Guy. Again, it is value for dollar. Guy doesn't do anything that another person couldn't do. You could plug in guys you already have on the roster and get the same production. Guy is entitled to a certain dollar amount simply because he is a veteran.

Vlad can't pass protect to save his life and he got the job for his run blocking....and we didn't run the dang ball. But, when we did run the ball we ran better because he was in there at RG. He is cheap, but you can get cheaper, younger, and better with a draft choice or with somebody else already on the roster.

Levine is nothing special. He's a special teams ace...so what? Get somebody else that is an athletic safety that can actually tackle and they'll be our next ST ace. You have to remember VALUE. We can get somebody to do the same things he does for cheaper. Even if it is for a little bit cheaper.

Pitta may or may not be the curse/plague we all think he is, but he's the only proven TE with hands we have that knows how to get open. Waller doesn't get open and drops the ball. Watson will be cut. Maxx Williams showed some flashes, but he got hurt. Boyle is a blocking TE that won't do anything better than Pitta other than block, and Crockett Gillmore is all banged up and may never be the same. Pitta is the best TE we have regardless of what fans think about him.

1. In terms of Wagner/offensive lineman, yes the good one's get paid. Though the caveat is that they don't all get paid the same. The positions have different value. LTs get paid more than everybody else.

A high end LT makes $10M+ per season, typically as high as $12-13M.

A high end C makes $7-9M, so they're worth $2-3M a year less generally.

RT is generally the lowest valued position on the Oline. Good one's make around $6-7M a year. That's not a small amount of money, but its also not a prohibitive amount of money either. 

So when we talk about the comparisons, we aren't talking about breaking the bank for him. Now we could argue whether or not Alex Lewis is a viable replacement or not, but we don't really know that, because we really haven't seen him at RT in the NFL. One would think he would be a downgrade, but as to how much is the question.

One also major issue with the assumption of Wagner walking and that it will be cheaper... you now have another hole to fill on the offensive line. If Lewis is the RT, we now need a new LG (along with what most suspect will be a new Center). My gut says that the FO won't start a rookie LG and rookie Center at the same time, particularly if the tackles are both second year players. That's quite the gamble.

So if we now need to find a new LG, how do we do that if its not via the draft? Ryan Jensen wouldn't appear to be an option, because he's a UFA AND was a gameday inactive for most of the season. Urschel doesn't appear to be somebody we trust as a starter either, otherwise I'd suspect he would be one already. Resigning Ducasse is an option, but we don't know what that would cost either. He could probably get a $2-3M a year type deal, or we could find somebody else similar in FA. If that's the case, then the cost savings from not paying Wagner shrinks, because you had to pay somebody else who's not a rookie to play Lewis LG position. So that $6-7M is really now maybe $3-4M in savings. I guess that's significant, but is that worth the gamble for $3-4M? What are you going to buy with that.

A lot of factors to consider. Another would be the idea that for essentially the second straight season we would have failed to retain barely anybody from our draft classes, and that's not necessarily because those classes weren't strong. Not a good sign for the FO. 

2. I could argue both cases with Pitta. Ultimately, it appears he reached most of his incentive add-backs this season, meaning his cap number will likely go up in 2017 and it might not be wise from a cap standpoint to let him go. But I can tell you that even after a year like this one, he's not living up to his contract and definitely not to his cap number. Him being the best TE on the roster (only in the pass catching area by the way, because he's not a good blocker) isn't a good thing. Its an indictment of our roster and depth, not of how good he is.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

2 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1. In terms of Wagner/offensive lineman, yes the good one's get paid. Though the caveat is that they don't all get paid the same. The positions have different value. LTs get paid more than everybody else.

A high end LT makes $10M+ per season, typically as high as $12-13M.

A high end C makes $7-9M, so they're worth $2-3M a year less generally.

RT is generally the lowest valued position on the Oline. Good one's make around $6-7M a year. That's not a small amount of money, but its also not a prohibitive amount of money either. 

So when we talk about the comparisons, we aren't talking about breaking the bank for him. Now we could argue whether or not Alex Lewis is a viable replacement or not, but we don't really know that, because we really haven't seen him at RT in the NFL. One would think he would be a downgrade, but as to how much is the question.

One also major issue with the assumption of Wagner walking and that it will be cheaper... you now have another hole to fill on the offensive line. If Lewis is the RT, we now need a new LG (along with what most suspect will be a new Center). My gut says that the FO won't start a rookie LG and rookie Center at the same time, particularly if the tackles are both second year players. That's quite the gamble.

So if we now need to find a new LG, how do we do that if its not via the draft? Ryan Jensen wouldn't appear to be an option, because he's a UFA AND was a gameday inactive for most of the season. Urschel doesn't appear to be somebody we trust as a starter either, otherwise I'd suspect he would be one already. Resigning Ducasse is an option, but we don't know what that would cost either. He could probably get a $2-3M a year type deal, or we could find somebody else similar in FA. If that's the case, then the cost savings from not paying Wagner shrinks, because you had to pay somebody else who's not a rookie to play Lewis LG position. So that $6-7M is really now maybe $3-4M in savings. I guess that's significant, but is that worth the gamble for $3-4M? What are you going to buy with that.

A lot of factors to consider. Another would be the idea that for essentially the second straight season we would have failed to retain barely anybody from our draft classes, and that's not necessarily because those classes weren't strong. Not a good sign for the FO. 

2. I could argue both cases with Pitta. Ultimately, it appears he reached most of his incentive add-backs this season, meaning his cap number will likely go up in 2017 and it might not be wise from a cap standpoint to let him go. But I can tell you that even after a year like this one, he's not living up to his contract and definitely not to his cap number. Him being the best TE on the roster (only in the pass catching area by the way, because he's not a good blocker) isn't a good thing. Its an indictment of our roster and depth, not of how good he is.

So paying $6-$7 million to a RT when you could cut him, play somebody else for cheaper, and use that money to address another huge need like a pass rusher, wide out, or CB is what we're talking about here. Wagner's situation does not operate in a vacuum. We already have some guys waiting in the wings on the PS and Ducasse would not be an option for LG because he's not a good pass blocker. Yanda says he wants to move back to RG, but in my opinion what would be best for the team is for him to be the LG and to hold auditions for RG with what you've got in house and what you can draft/pick up cheaply on the FA market. Somebody will get cut because they're getting paid too much on their current contract and will fit the bill for us. Your last point doesn't make sense because Alex Lewis was a recent draft pick and so would be some of the potential replacements at G and C. Nembot, Broxton, Urshcel, and Skura.

Whatever your take is, the fact remains is that you've got nothing better than Pitta. You can't simply replace him with a warm body, you need somebody else that can at least do what he does. If Maxx winds up being that guy, great, but until he actually proves it, Pitta is the guy unless they draft his replacement...which Maxx was already supposed to be.

[rmcjacket23]

8 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

So paying $6-$7 million to a RT when you could cut him, play somebody else for cheaper, and use that money to address another huge need like a pass rusher, wide out, or CB is what we're talking about here. Wagner's situation does not operate in a vacuum. We already have some guys waiting in the wings on the PS and Ducasse would not be an option for LG because he's not a good pass blocker. Yanda says he wants to move back to RG, but in my opinion what would be best for the team is for him to be the LG and to hold auditions for RG with what you've got in house and what you can draft/pick up cheaply on the FA market. Somebody will get cut because they're getting paid too much on their current contract and will fit the bill for us. Your last point doesn't make sense because Alex Lewis was a recent draft pick and so would be some of the potential replacements at G and C. Nembot, Broxton, Urshcel, and Skura.

Whatever your take is, the fact remains is that you've got nothing better than Pitta. You can't simply replace him with a warm body, you need somebody else that can at least do what he does. If Maxx winds up being that guy, great, but until he actually proves it, Pitta is the guy unless they draft his replacement...which Maxx was already supposed to be.

1. We don't get to cut Wagner... he isn't on our roster once the league year begins. We don't gain any money by cutting him, because he isn't ours. He's a FA just like any other FA we would sign, except we get to negotiate sooner with him. We either sign him or we don't.

2. Maybe we have some guys, maybe we don't. I don't really care about PS guys, because they rarely make any NFL impact whatsoever. We did a long post like a year ago about who were like the best Ravens of all-time who were on the PS. Its a very, very, very small list. I believe we determined that Jensen was legitimately one of the better PS players in franchise history, and he can't even carve out a regular role on the roster. So if we're even remotely banking on a PS player to be a starting Guard for us next year, we are in trouble.

3. I don't think you understand my concept. The moment you pay ANY FA to come play for us, that costs us money. So the $6-7M that you didn't spend on Wagner is now partially being spent on another FA OLineman, who will likely play Guard. If you spend $1M, you're getting a $1M player, which will be reflective in production most likely. If you spend $5M, then you basically just bought another Wagner at a different position. If I'm going to do that, I'd rather just keep Wagner who I know can play and have 80% of my line locked up. 

My point is that I don't expect both our new Center and our new Guard (regardless of whether its LG or RG) to both be rookies. I think its one or the other. I don't see any people on the roster or PS right now who are capable of being a starter at Guard other than Lewis, and we don't have anything close at Center. So we will either likely buy a Guard or buy a Center, either of which would cut into that money we didn't spend on Wagner.

If you sign Wagner, you've got 80% of your starting Oline locked up, and you can draft a Center if you choose. Depending on how much buying a Guard or Center would cost if you let Wagner walk, you might save a little money by doing the latter, but not anywhere close to enough to buy the guys you want to buy.

There certainly aren't any good Corners to buy in that price range, you MIGHT be able to get a WR for that, and I have no idea why we would even go to FA for a pass rusher, when age is the biggest detriment to it. If we're going to sign a veteran pass rusher for that price, I would just keep Doom, since he costs about the same.

4. At the end of the day, Pitta is a glorified receiver. He's a terrible blocker at this point. So an option for replacing Pitta doesn't necessarily have to come from the TE position... it can come from the WR position as well. That opens up a lot more options. We generally like TEs in this town, but its not a requirement that our TE be our leading receiver.

 

[EdTheMythicalOne]

3 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1. We don't get to cut Wagner... he isn't on our roster once the league year begins. We don't gain any money by cutting him, because he isn't ours. He's a FA just like any other FA we would sign, except we get to negotiate sooner with him. We either sign him or we don't.

2. Maybe we have some guys, maybe we don't. I don't really care about PS guys, because they rarely make any NFL impact whatsoever. We did a long post like a year ago about who were like the best Ravens of all-time who were on the PS. Its a very, very, very small list. I believe we determined that Jensen was legitimately one of the better PS players in franchise history, and he can't even carve out a regular role on the roster. So if we're even remotely banking on a PS player to be a starting Guard for us next year, we are in trouble.

3. I don't think you understand my concept. The moment you pay ANY FA to come play for us, that costs us money. So the $6-7M that you didn't spend on Wagner is now partially being spent on another FA OLineman, who will likely play Guard. If you spend $1M, you're getting a $1M player, which will be reflective in production most likely. If you spend $5M, then you basically just bought another Wagner at a different position. If I'm going to do that, I'd rather just keep Wagner who I know can play and have 80% of my line locked up. 

My point is that I don't expect both our new Center and our new Guard (regardless of whether its LG or RG) to both be rookies. I think its one or the other. I don't see any people on the roster or PS right now who are capable of being a starter at Guard other than Lewis, and we don't have anything close at Center. So we will either likely buy a Guard or buy a Center, either of which would cut into that money we didn't spend on Wagner.

If you sign Wagner, you've got 80% of your starting Oline locked up, and you can draft a Center if you choose. Depending on how much buying a Guard or Center would cost if you let Wagner walk, you might save a little money by doing the latter, but not anywhere close to enough to buy the guys you want to buy.

There certainly aren't any good Corners to buy in that price range, you MIGHT be able to get a WR for that, and I have no idea why we would even go to FA for a pass rusher, when age is the biggest detriment to it. If we're going to sign a veteran pass rusher for that price, I would just keep Doom, since he costs about the same.

4. At the end of the day, Pitta is a glorified receiver. He's a terrible blocker at this point. So an option for replacing Pitta doesn't necessarily have to come from the TE position... it can come from the WR position as well. That opens up a lot more options. We generally like TEs in this town, but its not a requirement that our TE be our leading receiver.

 

1) If you don't offer a guy a contract you are essentially cutting him and you are saving yourself the money of whatever somebody else is wanting to pay him which you value as $6-$7 million a year based on last year's market. Chances are prices went up, because they generally do.

2) Matt Skura was a guy the Ravens raved about and he had played all over the line in college and his best position in the NFL is expected to be C. Broxton is a big body and strong interior lineman, and Nembot is a reach as a tools tackle that has all of the physical tools to be a tackle, but has limited exposure to the game based on where he's from. He's a reach to make a roster but you just never know about these types of guys. There will be out of work veterans looking for jobs and could be had for the veteran minimum which will be a lot less than whatever Wagner's going to get. Even if you get a veteran at LG and Lewis at RT playing for the same amount as it would take to keep Wagner, you've got two players for the price of one...and that....is what we call...value. Hi. Remember that word?

3) The Ravens had 100% of their line returning a season or so ago and how well did that work out for us?

4) It isn't about directly taking the exact amount you save from not keeping Wagner, it is about the pool of money you can free up total by making other cuts and not signing other guys to big money deals like Brandon Williams.

5) Pitta. As I said, regardless of what you think of him, he's the best TE we have and as it stands with no Steve Smith on the roster, arguably the best receiver we have on the team. Yes that says a lot about how bad this team is in that position. But you can't replace Pitta with a WR. You actually do need a TE that is more than just a statue. So you can't afford to cut bait with him as it stands right now because you simply have nothing better. You don't even have anything close. This isn't the case with Wagner. The team feels Lewis is the answer.

[rmcjacket23]

4 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

1) If you don't offer a guy a contract you are essentially cutting him and you are saving yourself the money of whatever somebody else is wanting to pay him which you value as $6-$7 million a year based on last year's market. Chances are prices went up, because they generally do.

2) Matt Skura was a guy the Ravens raved about and he had played all over the line in college and his best position in the NFL is expected to be C. Broxton is a big body and strong interior lineman, and Nembot is a reach as a tools tackle that has all of the physical tools to be a tackle, but has limited exposure to the game based on where he's from. He's a reach to make a roster but you just never know about these types of guys. There will be out of work veterans looking for jobs and could be had for the veteran minimum which will be a lot less than whatever Wagner's going to get. Even if you get a veteran at LG and Lewis at RT playing for the same amount as it would take to keep Wagner, you've got two players for the price of one...and that....is what we call...value. Hi. Remember that word?

3) The Ravens had 100% of their line returning a season or so ago and how well did that work out for us?

4) It isn't about directly taking the exact amount you save from not keeping Wagner, it is about the pool of money you can free up total by making other cuts and not signing other guys to big money deals like Brandon Williams.

5) Pitta. As I said, regardless of what you think of him, he's the best TE we have and as it stands with no Steve Smith on the roster, arguably the best receiver we have on the team. Yes that says a lot about how bad this team is in that position. But you can't replace Pitta with a WR. You actually do need a TE that is more than just a statue. So you can't afford to cut bait with him as it stands right now because you simply have nothing better. You don't even have anything close. This isn't the case with Wagner. The team feels Lewis is the answer.

1. LOL, prices don't go up that much. In some years, prices actually go down, based on the perceived value of the position. That market for RTs hasn't changed much in recent years, despite the rising salary cap. 

Additionally, we have far more recent contracts than just a year ago to look at. Ryan Schraeder signed his deal in November, and its precisely in that range and his a comparable player. Even if you were to assume that prices go up, they generally would only go up by the level of the cap increase. So a 10% cap rise would yield a 10% price increase. If a $6M player increases by 10%, thats $6.6M, which is basically a rounding error for NFL franchises. You won't find the Ravens haggling over $600K a year with a player that caliber.

2. The Ravens rave about every player all the time. That's nothing new. Long, long, long list of PS players who were "raved" about, got support from veteran players, etc. and almost all of them never amounted to anything. I wouldn't be putting your cards in that basket. It would be a major surprise if a PS player was a starter at Guard or Center next season.

3. If you're signing a veteran minimum player, you're getting a veteran minimum player. There aren't good players being cut for the veteran minimum. If somebody like a Josh Sitton, who is a very good player, gets cut in a cap move, he's not playing for a veteran minimum. He's signing for $7M a year, which he did. Now we don't need a player of that caliber, but there aren't quality veterans signing for the veterans minimum. Just doesn't happen very often. If they are, its likely due to some major injury concerns.

4. Lewis price is practically irrelevant, because he's cheap and cost like less than $1M to play. So if Wagner + Lewis = $8M a year, then whatever the cost of the player you got instead of Wagner is what you "saved". What you spend that savings on is how you identify getting two players for one. That COULD be called getting value, except if said players don't play well or don't play at all, that's called a different kind of value. Its called LOW value. There enlies the risk. The 2 for 1 quantity play only works when the quantity players contribute at a reasonable enough level.

5. Well, we do have TEs on the roster. Whether or not fans like them as much doesn't matter. Its what the FO likes. 

In sort of an ironic situation, we've actually seen what I said could happen play out already on this team, and it wasn't that long ago. If you remember, in 2013, we traded Anquan Boldin. At the time we did that, who was his "replacement"? Didn't have one, and throughout the season we didn't have one. 

Again ironically, the "replacement" in many ways was Dennis Pitta, who plays a different position. We replaced a WR with a TE in many ways that season. Granted, it didn't pan out and that move was widely criticized, but if there's anything we know for sure, its that this FO isn't going to just keep a player because they have nobody better on the roster to replace him with at that time.

If you ask some beat writers, they'll tell you that their feeling is that the Ravens will target WRs and/or TEs in the draft and FA, and then possibly look to move on from Pitta as a post June-1 cut. Not an idea I would endorse, but literally everything is in play with him.

[RavensFanMania]

On 1/2/2017 at 0:09 PM, GrimCoconut said:

Can we sell another team on Pitta's numbers as justification to trade us a 5th round pick for him? Hopefully they don't watch the film and just go off numbers because we could probably get a 3rd in that case

doubtful with his injury history

[Tank 92]

1 hour ago, ludy51 said:

No way do we let both Brandon and Wagner walk. Most likely (IMO) we keep Wagner. But I guarantee we keep at least one of the two.

Yeah, it would be pretty dumb to let Wagner walk as long as he doesn't get a stupid offer elsewhere. They need to try to keep some sort of consistency on the O line as it seems they are just starting to gel. There's enough issues already, don't need to add to them.  As you mention, that may mean not being able to keep B Will, but they are much deeper there.

[usmccharles]

1 hour ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

So paying $6-$7 million to a RT when you could cut him, play somebody else for cheaper, and use that money to address another huge need like a pass rusher, wide out, or CB is what we're talking about here. Wagner's situation does not operate in a vacuum. We already have some guys waiting in the wings on the PS and Ducasse would not be an option for LG because he's not a good pass blocker. Yanda says he wants to move back to RG, but in my opinion what would be best for the team is for him to be the LG and to hold auditions for RG with what you've got in house and what you can draft/pick up cheaply on the FA market. Somebody will get cut because they're getting paid too much on their current contract and will fit the bill for us. Your last point doesn't make sense because Alex Lewis was a recent draft pick and so would be some of the potential replacements at G and C. Nembot, Broxton, Urshcel, and Skura.

Whatever your take is, the fact remains is that you've got nothing better than Pitta. You can't simply replace him with a warm body, you need somebody else that can at least do what he does. If Maxx winds up being that guy, great, but until he actually proves it, Pitta is the guy unless they draft his replacement...which Maxx was already supposed to be.

You want to let Wagner go, so we can potentially find a guy on the practice squad? are you kidding me? I (and I bet a lot of others do) usually judge someone's understanding of football on what their opinions on offensive lines are, and while a lot of the times I think you make good points, I cant fathom how you think letting a quality RT go for a practice squad player or even lewis, just so we have to go find a replacement.  So many people sit here and preach about building an oline but the moment you realize it takes money away from your sexy WR, you throw a fit. 

[rmw10]

31 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

1) If you don't offer a guy a contract you are essentially cutting him and you are saving yourself the money of whatever somebody else is wanting to pay him which you value as $6-$7 million a year based on last year's market. Chances are prices went up, because they generally do.

2) Matt Skura was a guy the Ravens raved about and he had played all over the line in college and his best position in the NFL is expected to be C. Broxton is a big body and strong interior lineman, and Nembot is a reach as a tools tackle that has all of the physical tools to be a tackle, but has limited exposure to the game based on where he's from. He's a reach to make a roster but you just never know about these types of guys. There will be out of work veterans looking for jobs and could be had for the veteran minimum which will be a lot less than whatever Wagner's going to get. Even if you get a veteran at LG and Lewis at RT playing for the same amount as it would take to keep Wagner, you've got two players for the price of one...and that....is what we call...value. Hi. Remember that word?

3) The Ravens had 100% of their line returning a season or so ago and how well did that work out for us?

4) It isn't about directly taking the exact amount you save from not keeping Wagner, it is about the pool of money you can free up total by making other cuts and not signing other guys to big money deals like Brandon Williams.

5) Pitta. As I said, regardless of what you think of him, he's the best TE we have and as it stands with no Steve Smith on the roster, arguably the best receiver we have on the team. Yes that says a lot about how bad this team is in that position. But you can't replace Pitta with a WR. You actually do need a TE that is more than just a statue. So you can't afford to cut bait with him as it stands right now because you simply have nothing better. You don't even have anything close. This isn't the case with Wagner. The team feels Lewis is the answer.

You really talking this highly of some PS fodder like they're actually going to turn into something?  Oh, brother...

[Purple_City39]

1 hour ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

That's all on Perriman. You can't just "make a guy" be a #1 receiver if he can't get open and can't catch the football.

Boldin wouldn't be ahead of anyone. He'd be a sub in package guy for third downs and short yardage redzone plays. If you need him to step up into something more than that, he can.

Funny how people that slobber all over Aiken who think he's Boldin, don't want Boldin who actually is Boldin and does things Boldin does that Aiken never did.

Was all of this directed at me, because I don't recall mentioning Aiken, let alone slobbering.  I've actually never cared for AIken, so I'm curious as to whether that was an unknown and pointless addition or if it had something to do with what you think I said.

In terms of making Perriman a starter, if you noticed I said make him "the #1 or #2" not "a #1".  You can definitely make any player you want a starter and see how they do and the Ravens have done it a ton of times with 1st round picks so that's not an issue.  Whether he becomes a true #1 WR is another story that we'll have to wait and see

[usmccharles]

3 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

You really talking this highly of some PS fodder like they're actually going to turn into something?  Oh, brother...

The moment a moment someone is counting on PS guys to be a viable replacement for a starting position....I tap out

[rmcjacket23]

4 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

The moment a moment someone is counting on PS guys to be a viable replacement for a starting position....I tap out

I looked back until about 2011 on this. Granted these are just from beginning of season PS, but the best guys I could find on this list:

Ryan Jensen

John Simon (became a starter for Houston)

Fitzgerald Toussaint (3rd string RB for the Steelers)

Josh Bynes (depth linebacker for us for awhile, plays for Lions)

There's a lot of "rave review" guys like Omar Brown on that list, but definitely nothing to write home about. Really don't see a single starter in at least 5 years or so coming from our PS. In a best case scenario, we get a depth player.

[usmccharles]

1 minute ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I looked back until about 2011 on this. Granted these are just from beginning of season PS, but the best guys I could find on this list:

Ryan Jensen

John Simon (became a starter for Houston)

Fitzgerald Toussaint (3rd string RB for the Steelers)

Josh Bynes (depth linebacker for us for awhile, plays for Lions)

There's a lot of "rave review" guys like Omar Brown on that list, but definitely nothing to write home about. Really don't see a single starter in at least 5 years or so coming from our PS. In a best case scenario, we get a depth player.

The fans who buy into those rave reviews are most likely the ones with their (jimmy?) Butler or Tommy Streeter jerseys as their mechanic towels now.  The moment he mentioned letting Wagner go so we can sign a WR...I tapped out. 

[rmcjacket23]

Just now, usmccharles said:

The fans who buy into those rave reviews are most likely the ones with their (jimmy?) Butler or Tommy Streeter jerseys as their mechanic towels now.  The moment he mentioned letting Wagner go so we can sign a WR...I tapped out. 

To be honest, I'm not advocating for or against signing Wagner. I could argue both sides. 

I certainly don't think its the no brainer some do that "o well we will just move Lewis to RT and sign somebody else to play Guard". I think there's a ton of risk there and making sure the offensive line is stable is among the most important things the Ravens do this offseason.

All I know is if the FO is going to cut some veterans (which they will) and end up with north of $20M in cap space, it would be unbelievably disappointing to see Williams and Wagner both walk out the door. If we sign Williams and not Wagner, so be it, but if I'm the FO, I'm focusing on retaining the good RT who I can sign for less most likely. I have more confidence in Pierce replacing Williams than I do Lewis replacing Wagner.

[usmccharles]

1 minute ago, rmcjacket23 said:

To be honest, I'm not advocating for or against signing Wagner. I could argue both sides. 

I certainly don't think its the no brainer some do that "o well we will just move Lewis to RT and sign somebody else to play Guard". I think there's a ton of risk there and making sure the offensive line is stable is among the most important things the Ravens do this offseason.

All I know is if the FO is going to cut some veterans (which they will) and end up with north of $20M in cap space, it would be unbelievably disappointing to see Williams and Wagner both walk out the door. If we sign Williams and not Wagner, so be it, but if I'm the FO, I'm focusing on retaining the good RT who I can sign for less most likely. I have more confidence in Pierce replacing Williams than I do Lewis replacing Wagner.

We tend to draft DL well, so since we have a quality RT I see the most logical thing is to keep him to secure down that side, then we have Lewis coming in, but still need a center.  People want to complain about Joe, lets see how well he does when we let Wagner go, move Lewis to RT have to find another G and still have a subpar center, imo. 

[redlobster]

I sure wish Alex Lewis got the start at RT vs the Bengals so we could have at least seen him in some regular game footage as a RT. Although I prefer Wagner being re-signed.