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Next Up: Ravens Free Agents--Who goes? Who stays?

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20 hours ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

I think everybody that is a more than a casual fan of the NFL knows that a multi year deal is not a multi year deal until the team keeps you on the roster. The money is not guaranteed and you can get cut at any time. That's why guys want as much money up front and guaranteed to them more than just number of years.

Not sure where you're getting this no wear and tear thing on Waston. He's played no less than 12 games a season since his sophmore season in the NFL. He's not a "superb" blocker by any means. He's just not horrible at it. Dude is 37 and coming off of an Achilles. I'd be surprised if the Ravens keep him, but if they do I will pull for him since he's a Raven.

Guys can still look good late in their careers after they lose a step. It doesn't mean they haven't. They make up for it with experience and hard work. We made Derek Mason look like a superstar when he was pretty much done. Why? Because he was our main target.

The point you make about Pitta is laughable at best. He's been nothing but consistent his whole career when he's healthy. What does he do well? Catch the ball. He's got the best hands on the team. What else does he do well? Get open in zone coverage. Once again that was on full display. The reason for him getting so many balls isn't because Joe Flacco has a secret crush on him, it is because he's the only guy that knows how to get himself open. That's been Dennis Pitta his whole career and that hasn't fluctuated.

We'll just have to agree to disagree about our stances on Watson and Pitta.

Looks like neither of us are changing our opinion on this, regardless I think Pitta and Watson will be cut at some point, just depends on when for me. The Ravens need to live in die by the young guys and neither of those two will offer the ability to do that. 

I will address this, on the topic of Pitta's consistency, that's what he has been his whole career, ok fair, what about this past season? After his best game of the season against Miami he managed a poor 4 catches for 18 Yards against New England. After that it was 2 catches for 16 yards against Philadelphia. After that he had a flurry of inflated targets against Pitt and Cincy on plays that really didn't get the Ravens much. 

I don't believe in his ability to get open on zone coverage because he didn't beat linebackers often. I think you're mistaking those plays he made that went for 3 or 4 yards as getting open when a lot of defenses in the NFL play a bend-but-don't break type of coverage (Just like ours) where they will take a TE getting a 3 yard gain over a WR getting a 30 yard play. 

On plays where Pitta gets targets, they have been largely ineffective, and I don't think anyone is saying that Joe has a crush on PItta, but when he gets pressure in his face, he tends to get tunnel vision and look for his safety blanket, that has always been Pitta but as we all know, those plays just were not effective for us. That's not what I would define as getting open, that's a play in which the TE either sits on his route or the defense sits on their play and wait for the TE to make the catch and then proceed upon the tackle, which is what we saw, a ton. 

Again, that's just me addressing your comments, I don't feel like this is going to change our opinions, I still believe both guys are going to get cut, it just depends on when. 

Edited by PurpleCity5
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2 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Many believe the Ravens will end up landing Claiborne and apparently Webb isn't done here if the Ravens can help it.

From LaCanfora.

Cool. Id be happy with both depending on the money. If Claiborne can still healthy (a big if) hes a huge upgrade on anything we had last year (excluding Tavon bc he should be on the inside even though he did play well outside).

Webb is good all around depth, so I wouldnt hate that either. Still has some range and ball skills.

 

If we check that box and get Claiborne, hopefully we turn our attention to Barwin or Mangold. I know we dont have too much $ left but i imagine they could find a way.

Would take away pressing need to really draft any position high and truly set up for taking BPA. Sure -- we need to get younger at CB and pass rusher (and C if we were to sign Mangold), and could use a RT/WR... but its not like we'd have a huge hole anywhere in terms of starting position.

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I'm excited with all this activity in FA but I'm on the fence with Claiborne, he's always injured. Hope he comes in at a good price. 

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21 hours ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

Actually, you do agree with me.

I don't think most guys magically transform into better players once they step on the field. They are either good or not. Now, an adrenaline rush is capable of allowing people to do some amazing things, but it is short lived and a once in a life time thing. A player can't live off of an adrenaline rush.

But in the rare cases where people get amped up for a game it can be a help or a hindrance.

You say sometimes better and sometimes worse. I say it isn't common that a player plays better in live game action that he does anywhere else....so you're agreeing with me. If it only happens SOMETIMES and then part of those time is it also worse, then my point of it not being common remains true.

Watch kickers before the game.  They all can make kick after kick from any distance.  The difference between a guy like Cundiff and a guy like Tucker is ability to perform under pressure.  Why did we draft Boller in the first round?  It was because of his natural ability.  Why was Brady drafted in the 6th round.  Some players play a lot better than their talent and others a lot worse.  

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11 minutes ago, Underdogsontop! said:

I'm excited with all this activity in FA but I'm on the fence with Claiborne, he's always injured. Hope he comes in at a good price. 

hey if the forums would have been around we could have started a pool on whoever ends first on IR lol

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1 minute ago, atomicfront said:

Watch kickers before the game.  They all can make kick after kick from any distance.  The difference between a guy like Cundiff and a guy like Tucker is ability to perform under pressure.  Why did we draft Boller in the first round?  It was because of his natural ability.  Why was Brady drafted in the 6th round.  Some players play a lot better than their talent and others a lot worse.  

You're talking about two completely different things with the kicker situation. You are talking about a guy getting nervous and cracking under pressure and that's the mental aspect of the game. It has nothing to do with whether the kicker is playing "faster" or "stronger."

We drafted Boller because we actually whiffed on our chance to get who we really wanted and Billick panicked and went after a guy that had no business being drafted in the first round.

Pulling up Brady is like pulling up the rare instances of a UDFA turning into a consistent pro bowler or Hall of Famer. That is an extreme outlier and not the rule. If you want to go with Brady as your example; and I accept your premise, which I don't, that just proves my case even further that this is an exception to the rule. It is not a common thing.

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1 hour ago, PurpleCity5 said:

Looks like neither of us are changing our opinion on this, regardless I think Pitta and Watson will be cut at some point, just depends on when for me. The Ravens need to live in die by the young guys and neither of those two will offer the ability to do that. 

I will address this, on the topic of Pitta's consistency, that's what he has been his whole career, ok fair, what about this past season? After his best game of the season against Miami he managed a poor 4 catches for 18 Yards against New England. After that it was 2 catches for 16 yards against Philadelphia. After that he had a flurry of inflated targets against Pitt and Cincy on plays that really didn't get the Ravens much. 

I don't believe in his ability to get open on zone coverage because he didn't beat linebackers often. I think you're mistaking those plays he made that went for 3 or 4 yards as getting open when a lot of defenses in the NFL play a bend-but-don't break type of coverage (Just like ours) where they will take a TE getting a 3 yard gain over a WR getting a 30 yard play. 

On plays where Pitta gets targets, they have been largely ineffective, and I don't think anyone is saying that Joe has a crush on PItta, but when he gets pressure in his face, he tends to get tunnel vision and look for his safety blanket, that has always been Pitta but as we all know, those plays just were not effective for us. That's not what I would define as getting open, that's a play in which the TE either sits on his route or the defense sits on their play and wait for the TE to make the catch and then proceed upon the tackle, which is what we saw, a ton. 

Again, that's just me addressing your comments, I don't feel like this is going to change our opinions, I still believe both guys are going to get cut, it just depends on when. 

Even the best in the game get shut down in some games. They aren't always putting up 150 yards with 3 tds in every game. But look at the overall body of work and the numbers tell you the story about Pitta. He was consistent before and after the injury.

You see what you want to see and I will see what I want to see. If he's not getting open then he's not making all those catches. The offense as a whole was ineffective and I would argue that any catch that gains you positive yards is helpful.

I agree that the younger guys need to step up and claim the majority of snaps, but until they do then Pitta is not a bad option to have as a fallback plan. You know what you have with him and you can trust his hands.

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58 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Cool. Id be happy with both depending on the money. If Claiborne can still healthy (a big if) hes a huge upgrade on anything we had last year (excluding Tavon bc he should be on the inside even though he did play well outside).

Webb is good all around depth, so I wouldnt hate that either. Still has some range and ball skills.

 

If we check that box and get Claiborne, hopefully we turn our attention to Barwin or Mangold. I know we dont have too much $ left but i imagine they could find a way.

Would take away pressing need to really draft any position high and truly set up for taking BPA. Sure -- we need to get younger at CB and pass rusher (and C if we were to sign Mangold), and could use a RT/WR... but its not like we'd have a huge hole anywhere in terms of starting position.

A healthy Claiborne is an immediate upgrade for this team and I hope we get him on a decent contract (for the Ravens) so that more money can be spent to address other glaring needs that we might not be able to address during the draft.

I like Webb as a backup and if he comes back I think that is a good move.

Even with Smith and Claiborne I think the Ravens need to draft some more CB help high in the draft. It seems like these days it is only a matter of time before Smith or Claiborne gets hurt and we need some more talent in house just in case that happens. Take one high and then try to get a sleeper in the draft later. We certainly do need a pass rusher especially if we can't sign somebody to help us out at least until one of the younger guys steps up and shows they are ready. We still need some MLB help because I am not so sure Correa is the answer. It is his job to lose coming into the season though. We need more O-line help at C or RT. We could also use more help at WR...a big, tall, possession guy that can actually catch the football.

Zuttah would be okay as another year stop gap, and RT we might have the answer in house. If that is Alex Lewis then we need a LG and I think we should sign Tim Lelito. Under the radar move, has been a solid run blocker and if he gets beaten out he also plays RG/RT/&C.

At LE/LDT (the spot vacated by Lawrence Guy leaving) I think we've got the bodies in camp to step in.

We've got a glaring hole left by the Dumervil cut and we also need to find a replacement for Suggs because he's not going to be playing for too much longer.

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2 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I honestly view Claiborne as a fall back option. If we don't get the CB we want in the draft than we have him to rely upon. Still think we should invest one highly because him and Jimmy struggle to stay healthy, in the end I think this can make picking a pass rusher/WR our two biggest needs if/when Claiborne is signed. 

You won't get Claiborne that late. Some team will take a flier long before then.

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20 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

You won't get Claiborne that late. Some team will take a flier long before then.

Yea, theres reportedly a handful of other teams in the hunt.

If we pull back on our interest, someone else will surely pounce.

Edited by BOLDnPurPnBlacK
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58 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

We've got a glaring hole left by the Dumervil cut and we also need to find a replacement for Suggs because he's not going to be playing for too much longer.

I wouldn't call it a "glaring hole." Matt Judon -- who actually got more snaps than Doom in 2016 -- says hi. Replacing Suggs, to me, is the bigger issue on the edge.

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4 hours ago, The Raven said:

I'm curious about Webb's role here if he comes back. Nickel safety? Don't want to see him back at corner, and I doubt he'd take a starting safety job. Since Weddle and Jefferson aren't really the kind of guys you want to see as a single high, maybe Webb does come back to be that single high nickel safety.

Maybe Jefferson is also coming in to be a more full time "dime backer" like Levine was last year. 

If Pees continues to use the dime, we could have a hell of a back seven with Mosley at LB, Jefferson at dimebacker, Webb deep, and Weddle roaming,

i imagine we'd play more dime packages which we havent used any of... without even including any potential draft picks we'd potentially be set up with jimmy, tavon in the slot, claiborne on the other side, jefferson at the dimebacker spot, mosley at linebacker, webb and weddle playing similarly to last year as a tandem

the only thing is that's not a great running package - i could see jefferson playing the nickel corner role on obvious running plays for example - this of course all assumes that both webb and claiborne come in but if they both do then at worst we have some quality depth which given claiborne's injury history and how thin we are at safety is an obvious help

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if we do get claiborne and bring back webby, im not sure i want us to go after anyone else in free agency - i dont want us to absolutely go for broke and potentially send us into cap hell next year

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It wouldn't shock me if we attempted to re-sign Huff to a cheap, close to the minimum deal though.

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10 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

You won't get Claiborne that late. Some team will take a flier long before then.

 

9 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Yea, theres reportedly a handful of other teams in the hunt.

If we pull back on our interest, someone else will surely pounce.

Oh no, I worded that one wrong. Under the assumption that we do sign Claiborne, then I feel like we can still view him as a legit guy to take the No.2 CB role if someone that we really like in the draft gets taken early. Even if someone that we like is gone, we still have Claiborne on the roster to fall back on. Obviously I think he's gone come draft time. 

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If the team somehow signed Claiborne, signed Webb, and drafted Reubon Foster, I think the defense would be better by a wide margin, could almost say borderline eilte.

Problem is that is al based off of potential and assuming everybody comes back and plays at an equal or higher level than last season. Plus the team has not made any upgrades on offense and it will be another year of watching Flacco struggle because of the team neglecting to give him more weapons.

But when it comes down to it, the team is a lot closer to having an elite defense than an elite offense, so in the end I think adding those few pieces to make the defense even better is a good idea.

Let's just hope the team drafts young studs for the offense...

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21 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Cool. Id be happy with both depending on the money. If Claiborne can still healthy (a big if) hes a huge upgrade on anything we had last year (excluding Tavon bc he should be on the inside even though he did play well outside).

Webb is good all around depth, so I wouldnt hate that either. Still has some range and ball skills.

 

If we check that box and get Claiborne, hopefully we turn our attention to Barwin or Mangold. I know we dont have too much $ left but i imagine they could find a way.

Would take away pressing need to really draft any position high and truly set up for taking BPA. Sure -- we need to get younger at CB and pass rusher (and C if we were to sign Mangold), and could use a RT/WR... but its not like we'd have a huge hole anywhere in terms of starting position.

There's still several moves we can make to clear much more room if need be . off the top of my head you got Arrington , Zuttah, and Watson.  That's quite a bit of room right there. Arrington should be a sure fire cut- not so sure about the other two...it makes perfect sense to get rid of an old Watson coming off of a serious injury who has a pretty big cap hit while we're also stacked at the position- however I haven't heard anything at all about him being a cut candidate. Kinda strange. Zuttah is someone they might hold onto until after the draft and maybe even until preseason just to see how things pan out. If we sign mangold I would expect him to be released- if not I think we draft a center and we go through camp and see how the rookie does and determine whether or not he's ready to take over the reigns- then zuttah will likely be cut when they trim the roster down to 53. I can't see us keeping him for depth although its possible. Maybe if he takes a large paycut. So funny that he made the pro bowl. I can't wait till we find his replacement..in my mind he was the one weak link on our o line last season.

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Like BMore said I think Claiborne is just surveying the market, ultimately I think he takes the Ravens offer. 

1 hour ago, January J said:

There's still several moves we can make to clear much more room if need be . off the top of my head you got Arrington , Zuttah, and Watson.  That's quite a bit of room right there. Arrington should be a sure fire cut- not so sure about the other two...it makes perfect sense to get rid of an old Watson coming off of a serious injury who has a pretty big cap hit while we're also stacked at the position- however I haven't heard anything at all about him being a cut candidate. Kinda strange. Zuttah is someone they might hold onto until after the draft and maybe even until preseason just to see how things pan out. If we sign mangold I would expect him to be released- if not I think we draft a center and we go through camp and see how the rookie does and determine whether or not he's ready to take over the reigns- then zuttah will likely be cut when they trim the roster down to 53. I can't see us keeping him for depth although its possible. Maybe if he takes a large paycut. So funny that he made the pro bowl. I can't wait till we find his replacement..in my mind he was the one weak link on our o line last season.

I think Arrington is a sure cut as well, I think the team is waiting to bring in more guys before they make the cuts. In Zuttah's case I think they're waiting for a capable C before letting him go, even though the Ravens desire of a physical and power-run offense doesn't align with Zuttah's skill set, I firmly believe that they're waiting for the right guy to come around. 

In Watson's case I think the Ravens are holding off and I wouldn't be upset about that, I think that while it's tough to gauge just how effective he is given the injury at his age, he's a highly athletic TE, he can go vertical, attack the deep middle and sideline of coverages and the Ravens need someone of that caliber at TE badly. I think they could hold onto him going into TC and then decide to cut him. I really think he would've been the #1 TE had he stayed healthy and word is he was certainly emerging as the #1 TE. Sucks that he got hurt because we could have really used him here, I feel like he would have had a good year. Still, I think he's cut but its unfortunate. I didn't like the signing at first but after going back to the tape and looking at the longevity at the TE position, I personally think the signing was brilliant.

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Every year we do not make the playoffs is a rebuilding year. Bad contracts, cap hell, bad high round pivks up to last year, has gotten us into trouble. 

I like the fact that we are bringing free agents like Weddle who have football brains along with talent. 

We should be looking for intelligent players on every level of our team.

I would like to see a top pass rush prospect, a top center, a top cb, and a top wr to boost this team over the hump.

I think with Zuttah getting a probowl nod as 5th in a field of 5, getting pancaked and pushed around during the reg season, gives a false sense of security. 

A top Center will make this team go both in the running game, and passing game. Alex Lewis will most likely go to Rt, a guard pickup would help too. 

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2 minutes ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

Every year we do not make the playoffs is a rebuilding year. Bad contracts, cap hell, bad high round pivks up to last year, has gotten us into trouble. 

I like the fact that we are bringing free agents like Weddle who have football brains along with talent. 

We should be looking for intelligent players on every level of our team.

I would like to see a top pass rush prospect, a top center, a top cb, and a top wr to boost this team over the hump.

I think with Zuttah getting a probowl nod as 5th in a field of 5, getting pancaked and pushed around during the reg season, gives a false sense of security. 

A top Center will make this team go both in the running game, and passing game. Alex Lewis will most likely go to Rt, a guard pickup would help too. 

Expanding on the veteran thing, I also like that we can get guys like Weddle to teach the defensive rookies we bring in. I think we'll try our best to keep Lewis at G if we can though, but it has yet to be seen that we can spare that.

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Everyone faulting Ozzie for the Elam pick...  here's a look at the top 12 of that draft.  

 

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25 minutes ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

Every year we do not make the playoffs is a rebuilding year. Bad contracts, cap hell, bad high round pivks up to last year, has gotten us into trouble. 

I like the fact that we are bringing free agents like Weddle who have football brains along with talent. 

We should be looking for intelligent players on every level of our team.

I would like to see a top pass rush prospect, a top center, a top cb, and a top wr to boost this team over the hump.

I think with Zuttah getting a probowl nod as 5th in a field of 5, getting pancaked and pushed around during the reg season, gives a false sense of security. 

A top Center will make this team go both in the running game, and passing game. Alex Lewis will most likely go to Rt, a guard pickup would help too. 

We're actually starting to get that back.  When the defense was it's best, there were key cogs at each level, from DL, up to the secondary.  Now we have Williams, Cj, Jimmy(when healthy) and Weddle.  As for C, that's one spot I don't mind spending money on a vet.  It doesn't seem like Joe is given the any of the protection responsibility and we need a smart vet to take command of that.

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We have to get Morris Claiborne to have a better secondary we have Eric weddel, toney Jefferson and jimmy smith if we had Morris it would be a break through. 

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10 hours ago, Homie neave said:

We have to get Morris Claiborne to have a better secondary we have Eric weddel, toney Jefferson and jimmy smith if we had Morris it would be a break through. 

I think the same. If the Ravens had another shut down corner like Claiborne I think the Ravens start going into elite territory on defense. I know the pass rush sucks and still needs improvement, but that secondary is dangerous. Especially if the Ravens were able to convince Webb to come back (highly unlikely but still in talks). 

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54 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

I think the same. If the Ravens had another shut down corner like Claiborne I think the Ravens start going into elite territory on defense. I know the pass rush sucks and still needs improvement, but that secondary is dangerous. Especially if the Ravens were able to convince Webb to come back (highly unlikely but still in talks). 

A little bit of an overstatement??

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1 minute ago, rmw10 said:

And apparently Zuttah is next on the chopping block

 

:blond:

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