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7 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

Then what do you mean by "faster" if you are not talking about speed?

I've played too and I don't think it is as common as you seem to think. I buy more into that some guys practice better than they play and vice-versa. But you are either fast or you aren't. You are either twitch quick or you aren't. You are either strong or you aren't.

The reason why he might look faster and stronger than he might be is because of his relentless motor. That's a good thing. I like hustle and a guy that never gives up on a play. Let's not mistake that for talent though. His clear weakness is his lack of strength in the upper and lower body. It shows on tape on the field and it is verified at the combine. Luckily for him if he's been busting his butt in the gym this offseason; and I am sure he has been, he can work on that and improve the strength part of his game.

I'm talking about his ten yard split, his burst off the line, his short shuttle, his 3 cone. I forgot that I need to write things out in specific for you.

It's not that black and white. Gino Gradkowski had 29 reps at his pro day and a 28.5 vert -- solid numbers for a center -- but got thrown around like a toy. He lifts strong but doesn't play strong. By comparison, Weston Richburg had 25 reps and a 25.5 vert. Who's the better center? But I don't think I can convince you otherwise, so I'll let it rest

It's not the motor. I can distinguish talent and motor. It's what I see with my eyes on the tape. What I see as the primary problem is his pad level.

Edited by The Raven
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Jamison Hensley‏ @jamisonhensley

 

Ex-#Ravens OT Rick Wagner on his five-year, $47.5M deal: "Personally, that’s not my goal to be all about the money"

Lol right then why turn down the ravens offers.

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11 minutes ago, The Raven said:

I'm talking about his ten yard split, his burst off the line, his short shuttle, his 3 cone. I forgot that I need to write things out in specific for you.

It's not that black and white. Gino Gradkowski had 29 reps at his pro day and a 28.5 vert -- solid numbers for a center -- but got thrown around like a toy. He lifts strong but doesn't play strong. By comparison, Weston Richburg had 25 reps and a 25.5 vert. Who's the better center? But I don't think I can convince you otherwise, so I'll let it rest

It's not the motor. I can distinguish talent and motor. It's what I see with my eyes on the tape. What I see as the primary problem is his pad level.

People also forget that as an offensive/defensive lineman, leverage and leg drive play just as large a factor as upper body strength. Plus, as a tall, long armed player, bench presses are harder to complete. He has to come down and go up a lot further than someone six inches shorter than him.

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42 minutes ago, Ravenskid52752 said:

Conversation

 

Jamison Hensley‏ @jamisonhensley

 

Ex-#Ravens OT Rick Wagner on his five-year, $47.5M deal: "Personally, that’s not my goal to be all about the money"

Lol right then why turn down the ravens offers.

Maybe he actually wanted to go back north closer to where he's from?  I know it's easy to think that every player wants to stay here, but remember that these guys are pretty much told where they have to live and work after college.  When some get the opportunity to be closer to where they want to be, they take it.  Wagner has no ties here to Baltimore other than us drafting him.

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On 3/9/2017 at 6:18 PM, allblackraven said:

I also believe we have our eyes on Ardarius Stewart in 2nd. 

I've seen Stewart going third, fourth, and fifth. Would contrast with Wallace and Perriman with him being a very physical wr, but I'm not too sure as to when we should take him if we do. I'd be fine with taking him with the comp pick or later, assuming we've already addressed cb and edge, and the o-linemen start to blur together in talent

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15 hours ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

Hard work and dedication can't overcome Father Time. I am sure he is working to get himself back into the best shape he possible can. He's been carrying heavy loads over his 30's and guys don't suddenly turn back the clock unless they are Barry Bonds and get some "help" to do so.

Pitta broke the same hip twice. It is no wonder he's not quite the same guy that he was.

I agree that when the Ravens signed Watson it was with the full expectation that he'd be the number one. At that time of his signing, nobody knew if Pitta would even be able to step on the field again.

Steve Smith Sr. wasn't the same Steve Smith that he was, I think everybody knew that. He was still good, but he obviously had lost a little something.

I just simply don't think Ben Watson has a whole lot left to offer entering age 37 now and coming off of his injury. I am sure some team will give him a chance based on his history. If he proves me wrong so be it. I am under the impression that you are that we need to focus on the future of the position now and that is Maxx Williams first and foremost. I don't see Boyle as anything other than a supplemental blocker. Gillmore has a chance to be a starter again if healthy, but Maxx is a better athlete. Waller could be an option if he ever puts it all together but so far he's been unimpressive.

The reason why a lot of RBs burnt out by their mid-30s is because they wear out a lot by the high volume of carries, a guy like Watson who sprung in that age where RBs hit a hard decline peaked late because they have a lot less wear and tear. He got a 2YR deal worth 7M at the age of 35, I'm sure the Ravens knew his age before signing him to that deal, but the truth is that Watson had plenty left in the tank. Also, because of the torn Achilles it doesn't mean that Father Time is going to strike him right now, it might very well do so the next season but that doesn't mean it will happen now. That said, in the end I think Watson will be released however if the Ravens decide not to release him and give him a shot at TC then I will very much approve of that decision. Not to mention Watson is a superb blocking TE. He offers those two dimensions on the TE position and I feel like we really missed out on it. I really wish he never had that injury.

 On the case of Steve Smith Sr. I disagree, he looked really good in his return, he had 800 yards receiving but lets not forget he practically missed 3 games( Exited early vs Washington, missed Giants & Jets). Its very possible that he could have accumulated 1,000 yards and match the type of season that he had when he first came here. If he did lose a step, which is a statement that's valid, then it was probably 1/3rd of a step. 

I just flat out don't think Pitta can be a consistent contributor in this offense. TE's are a big part of what the Ravens want to do on offense but I feel like another receiving option would sort of fade Pitta away. TEs in a west coast offense run a variety of slant, drag, and crossing patterns where the TE meets head on with a linebacker and more often than not, Pitta did not win that battle. The lack of stand-out players forced Joe to look towards Pitta way more than need be, Pitta had 86 receptions on the year which led all TEs, but how many of them were effective compared to the top TE's? I would much rather have someone with less receptions and bigger and more effective plays if you ask me. Yeah, he had those two hip injuries and that's unfortunate, but it happened, it robbed him of his athleticism and his skills. I don't think either of those are ever coming back to him. I think it's possible it returns for Watson, as I said he's a very athletic TE, he sometimes looks like a WR when lined up in the slot. I think his physical play to go along with his athleticism can still make him a very effective player. I think he can shock some people and I really wouldn't be mad if we kept him because as it stands right now, the Ravens don't have someone who can be a receiving threat and a blocker, or to put into better words a 3 down TE. Right now, I'd rather take Watson over Pitta if we're talking about keeping a vet. 

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2 hours ago, Tank 92 said:

I have to disagree with this. Live bullets often make guys perform way differently, sometimes better, sometimes worse.

Actually, you do agree with me.

I don't think most guys magically transform into better players once they step on the field. They are either good or not. Now, an adrenaline rush is capable of allowing people to do some amazing things, but it is short lived and a once in a life time thing. A player can't live off of an adrenaline rush.

But in the rare cases where people get amped up for a game it can be a help or a hindrance.

You say sometimes better and sometimes worse. I say it isn't common that a player plays better in live game action that he does anywhere else....so you're agreeing with me. If it only happens SOMETIMES and then part of those time is it also worse, then my point of it not being common remains true.

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2 hours ago, The Raven said:

I'm talking about his ten yard split, his burst off the line, his short shuttle, his 3 cone. I forgot that I need to write things out in specific for you.

It's not that black and white. Gino Gradkowski had 29 reps at his pro day and a 28.5 vert -- solid numbers for a center -- but got thrown around like a toy. He lifts strong but doesn't play strong. By comparison, Weston Richburg had 25 reps and a 25.5 vert. Who's the better center? But I don't think I can convince you otherwise, so I'll let it rest

It's not the motor. I can distinguish talent and motor. It's what I see with my eyes on the tape. What I see as the primary problem is his pad level.

Okay, that's not speed, that's quickness and explosion and those are actually things that are not exactly something Kaufusi's scouting report says he's good at. You only had to be specific because I wanted you to further prove you don't know what you're talking about and you did an excellent job of it.

I compared two players almost the exact same height and weight at the same position and had drastically different numbers in the strength game. Your comparison offers up two guys with almost identical numbers. Richburg obviously is the better talent but maybe that also comes down to technique and natural skills.

You guys are seriously gonna give me flack for stating that J.J. Watt is a lot better of a talent than Bronson Kaufusi? Seriously?

Yes, I am sure you are an amazing expert at talent evaluation and that's why you are sitting at home at your computer and not working for an NFL front office.

Edited by EdTheMythicalOne
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2 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

People also forget that as an offensive/defensive lineman, leverage and leg drive play just as large a factor as upper body strength. Plus, as a tall, long armed player, bench presses are harder to complete. He has to come down and go up a lot further than someone six inches shorter than him.

And what are the knocks on Kaufusi?

He plays too high which means he's not getting leverage and not only does he lack upper body strength, but lower body strength. I mean I am not making this stuff up, this is coming from scouting reports from people that do this from a living. I think I will take their analysis and buy into it a bit more than a fan sitting at home and watching highlight reels.

He's also showing that his "speed" as somebody defined it (which actually isn't speed) and him being a "player that plays faster and stronger on the field" does not hold up because he lacks that speed and explosion on the field that should be there based on his combine.

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3 hours ago, lgcs27288 said:

Lets not get too far ahead of ourselves. BK hasnt even played a down yet. BW is good but hes not Ngata.

I don't think we should either but I think BK is going to be a damn good player, I personally think that had it not been for age he would have gone much earlier. Motor, athleticism, long frame, 2 dimensional player overall. I think he has loads of potential here and his issues are certainly fixable, I hope he manages to stay healthy. 

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11 minutes ago, PurpleCity5 said:

The reason why a lot of RBs burnt out by their mid-30s is because they wear out a lot by the high volume of carries, a guy like Watson who sprung in that age where RBs hit a hard decline peaked late because they have a lot less wear and tear. He got a 2YR deal worth 7M at the age of 35, I'm sure the Ravens knew his age before signing him to that deal, but the truth is that Watson had plenty left in the tank. Also, because of the torn Achilles it doesn't mean that Father Time is going to strike him right now, it might very well do so the next season but that doesn't mean it will happen now. That said, in the end I think Watson will be released however if the Ravens decide not to release him and give him a shot at TC then I will very much approve of that decision. Not to mention Watson is a superb blocking TE. He offers those two dimensions on the TE position and I feel like we really missed out on it. I really wish he never had that injury.

 On the case of Steve Smith Sr. I disagree, he looked really good in his return, he had 800 yards receiving but lets not forget he practically missed 3 games( Exited early vs Washington, missed Giants & Jets). Its very possible that he could have accumulated 1,000 yards and match the type of season that he had when he first came here. If he did lose a step, which is a statement that's valid, then it was probably 1/3rd of a step. 

I just flat out don't think Pitta can be a consistent contributor in this offense. TE's are a big part of what the Ravens want to do on offense but I feel like another receiving option would sort of fade Pitta away. TEs in a west coast offense run a variety of slant, drag, and crossing patterns where the TE meets head on with a linebacker and more often than not, Pitta did not win that battle. The lack of stand-out players forced Joe to look towards Pitta way more than need be, Pitta had 86 receptions on the year which led all TEs, but how many of them were effective compared to the top TE's? I would much rather have someone with less receptions and bigger and more effective plays if you ask me. Yeah, he had those two hip injuries and that's unfortunate, but it happened, it robbed him of his athleticism and his skills. I don't think either of those are ever coming back to him. I think it's possible it returns for Watson, as I said he's a very athletic TE, he sometimes looks like a WR when lined up in the slot. I think his physical play to go along with his athleticism can still make him a very effective player. I think he can shock some people and I really wouldn't be mad if we kept him because as it stands right now, the Ravens don't have someone who can be a receiving threat and a blocker, or to put into better words a 3 down TE. Right now, I'd rather take Watson over Pitta if we're talking about keeping a vet. 

I think everybody that is a more than a casual fan of the NFL knows that a multi year deal is not a multi year deal until the team keeps you on the roster. The money is not guaranteed and you can get cut at any time. That's why guys want as much money up front and guaranteed to them more than just number of years.

Not sure where you're getting this no wear and tear thing on Waston. He's played no less than 12 games a season since his sophmore season in the NFL. He's not a "superb" blocker by any means. He's just not horrible at it. Dude is 37 and coming off of an Achilles. I'd be surprised if the Ravens keep him, but if they do I will pull for him since he's a Raven.

Guys can still look good late in their careers after they lose a step. It doesn't mean they haven't. They make up for it with experience and hard work. We made Derek Mason look like a superstar when he was pretty much done. Why? Because he was our main target.

The point you make about Pitta is laughable at best. He's been nothing but consistent his whole career when he's healthy. What does he do well? Catch the ball. He's got the best hands on the team. What else does he do well? Get open in zone coverage. Once again that was on full display. The reason for him getting so many balls isn't because Joe Flacco has a secret crush on him, it is because he's the only guy that knows how to get himself open. That's been Dennis Pitta his whole career and that hasn't fluctuated.

We'll just have to agree to disagree about our stances on Watson and Pitta.

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39 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

Actually, you do agree with me.

I don't think most guys magically transform into better players once they step on the field. They are either good or not. Now, an adrenaline rush is capable of allowing people to do some amazing things, but it is short lived and a once in a life time thing. A player can't live off of an adrenaline rush.

But in the rare cases where people get amped up for a game it can be a help or a hindrance.

You say sometimes better and sometimes worse. I say it isn't common that a player plays better in live game action that he does anywhere else....so you're agreeing with me. If it only happens SOMETIMES and then part of those time is it also worse, then my point of it not being common remains true.

I'm not suggesting one player is sometimes better or worse. I'm saying that there are players that may not be stromg performers in practice, but consistently excel in game action. Conversely there also are "practice heroes" that suck when they get in the game. 

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1 hour ago, purpletide said:

I've seen Stewart going third, fourth, and fifth. Would contrast with Wallace and Perriman with him being a very physical wr, but I'm not too sure as to when we should take him if we do. I'd be fine with taking him with the comp pick or later, assuming we've already addressed cb and edge, and the o-linemen start to blur together in talent

He declared early because he got 2nd round grade from NFL

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1 hour ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

Okay, that's not speed, that's quickness and explosion and those are actually things that are not exactly something Kaufusi's scouting report says he's good at. You only had to be specific because I wanted you to further prove you don't know what you're talking about and you did an excellent job of it.

I compared two players almost the exact same height and weight at the same position and had drastically different numbers in the strength game. Your comparison offers up two guys with almost identical numbers. Richburg obviously is the better talent but maybe that also comes down to technique and natural skills.

You guys are seriously gonna give me flack for stating that J.J. Watt is a lot better of a talent than Bronson Kaufusi? Seriously?

Yes, I am sure you are an amazing expert at talent evaluation and that's why you are sitting at home at your computer and not working for an NFL front office.

Wow, you get worked up pretty easy. ;) 

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10 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

I'm not suggesting one player is sometimes better or worse. I'm saying that there are players that may not be stromg performers in practice, but consistently excel in game action. Conversely there also are "practice heroes" that suck when they get in the game. 

This is absolutely true. 

Theres no way to quantify it... no way to measure it and no way to project it. 

But for whatever reason there are guys that just dont look as good in a practice setting but then can ball out in games. 

Delt with it first hand in my athletic career with teammates that were that way. 

 

Its why I place much more emphasis on what I see on game tape when I try my hand at evaluating draft prospects over what they look like at the combine or pro days running through drills. 

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12 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

He declared early because he got 2nd round grade from NFL

Oh ok. The only websites I could find talking about him as a prospect didn't mention where he was projected. Maybe he still goes under the radar, but I'm doubtful.

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22 minutes ago, purpletide said:

Oh ok. The only websites I could find talking about him as a prospect didn't mention where he was projected. Maybe he still goes under the radar, but I'm doubtful.

I didn't have much time to watch many college players this year but I've done pretty detailed homework on Alabama players.

I think Stewart is the best kept secret this year as far as receivers go. Can be used out of backfield, deep, in the middle. Great hands, OK routes, extra gear, makes tough catches and produces lot of YAC. Solid returner, too.

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1 hour ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

And what are the knocks on Kaufusi?

He plays too high which means he's not getting leverage and not only does he lack upper body strength, but lower body strength. I mean I am not making this stuff up, this is coming from scouting reports from people that do this from a living. I think I will take their analysis and buy into it a bit more than a fan sitting at home and watching highlight reels.

He's also showing that his "speed" as somebody defined it (which actually isn't speed) and him being a "player that plays faster and stronger on the field" does not hold up because he lacks that speed and explosion on the field that should be there based on his combine.

You claim @The Raven doesn't know what he's talking about, but all you're doing is reading scouting reports. There is nothing to suggest you ever watched him in college and you obviously never got to see him in college. You're arguing with people based off of one or two blurbs you read from CBS or NFL.com. 

Excellent way to base your arguments.

Also, again, regarding the combine, that should make up a very little portion of how a player is looked at. Players are literally trained on how to do every single combine drill in the exact way to maximize a time. There are literal coaches that train these players on the exact stance, form, get off, push off, etc. to make sure that every single thing they do is for making that number pretty, regardless if it represents what happens on the field or not.

The bench press isn't a good measure because it measures endurance, not actual strength. How many times can his muscles take lifting up 225? Probably a lot less than other people because isn't he 6'8"? That's a lot further to go than someone who is like 6'2", for example. That doesn't actually show strength.

On the topic of the 40 and measuring speed, when are we really going to see a defensive lineman run 40 yards in a straight line? We aren't. It's a horrendous argument to base your assertions on. Furthermore, when you see a DL line up in a true track stance with his head down like that, let me know. Plus, the combine 40 times start on first movement, meaning if he twitches his leg, the time starts. It doesn't start when he moves across a line; first movement, period. That's why scouts prefer to hand time it, not actually use the combine times.

I mean, hell, Leonard Fournette just posted pretty putrid times vs what you'd expect, but I've never seen him have an issue running over people or getting caught from behind because combine times are useless, just like arguments based on one or two scouting reports.

Also, regarding draft profiles, remember that NFL teams see everything those analysts do and more. They don't miss a thing. Try to remember, too, that these draft profiles are often written based off of three or four collegiate games. How do we know they didn't pick a really poor sample or a really good sample? Generally speaking, you'll get a decent sample to see traits based on four games, but there's no guarantee.

Edited by BmoreBird22
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8 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

I didn't have much time to watch many college players this year but I've done pretty detailed homework on Alabama players.

I think Stewart is the best kept secret this year as far as receivers go. Can be used out of backfield, deep, in the middle. Great hands, OK routes, extra gear, makes tough catches and produces lot of YAC. Solid returner, too.

Underrated speed too. Need someone to contrast speed receivers like Wallace and Perriman, and Stewart's a physical guy. I like him, but he might miss Ozzie's radar as well (I kinda doubt it given Bama connection though).

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So, the Ravens currently sit at about $7M in cap space with the top 51 in play. When the rosters move to all players (53+PS+Draft), the Ravens will be flush out of cap. Now, that number hasn't been updated for PItta's new restructured cap hit and I'd fully expect two of Pitta, Arrington, and Watson to get cut, so the Ravens should have one more move in them. I wonder if it's going to be Claiborne.

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59 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

So, the Ravens currently sit at about $7M in cap space with the top 51 in play. When the rosters move to all players (53+PS+Draft), the Ravens will be flush out of cap. Now, that number hasn't been updated for PItta's new restructured cap hit and I'd fully expect two of Pitta, Arrington, and Watson to get cut, so the Ravens should have one more move in them. I wonder if it's going to be Claiborne.

I could also see us cut/rescind some of the offers from guys we tendered, which could open $1.5m per guy if so. Watson + Arrington is, what, $5m? Then, if a guy like Mangold is a target, his signing might mean a Zuttah cut which probably becomes a wash in terms of cap hit.... 

So - theres definitely some flexibility to make a move or 2, and for a starting caliber type player.

But, we're not going to be big spenders by any means from here on out. 1-2 additions and then it's time to turn to the draft.

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Many believe the Ravens will end up landing Claiborne and apparently Webb isn't done here if the Ravens can help it.

From LaCanfora.

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5 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Many believe the Ravens will end up landing Claiborne and apparently Webb isn't done here if the Ravens can help it.

From LaCanfora.

Just saw that . Thoughts on Claiborne apart from him being oft injured ?

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4 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Many believe the Ravens will end up landing Claiborne and apparently Webb isn't done here if the Ravens can help it.

From LaCanfora.

I'm curious about Webb's role here if he comes back. Nickel safety? Don't want to see him back at corner, and I doubt he'd take a starting safety job. Since Weddle and Jefferson aren't really the kind of guys you want to see as a single high, maybe Webb does come back to be that single high nickel safety.

Maybe Jefferson is also coming in to be a more full time "dime backer" like Levine was last year. 

If Pees continues to use the dime, we could have a hell of a back seven with Mosley at LB, Jefferson at dimebacker, Webb deep, and Weddle roaming,

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5 minutes ago, Edgar said:

Just saw that . Thoughts on Claiborne apart from him being oft injured ?

He's a good corner when healthy but injuries have been his downfall but maybe a change of scenery might help.

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14 minutes ago, The Raven said:

I'm curious about Webb's role here if he comes back. Nickel safety? Don't want to see him back at corner, and I doubt he'd take a starting safety job. Since Weddle and Jefferson aren't really the kind of guys you want to see as a single high, maybe Webb does come back to be that single high nickel safety.

Maybe Jefferson is also coming in to be a more full time "dime backer" like Levine was last year. 

If Pees continues to use the dime, we could have a hell of a back seven with Mosley at LB, Jefferson at dimebacker, Webb deep, and Weddle roaming,

Arizona utilized a ton of three and four safety sets last year to help neutralize the threat of tight ends and I'd imagine Jefferson would be able to help with that transition into three and four safety sets. 

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4 minutes ago, Ravenskid52752 said:

He's a good corner when healthy but injuries have been his downfall but maybe a change of scenery might help.

I like what Claiborne brings when he can stay on the field but, the thought of both our top corners being down at the same time kinda throws a wrench in it for me. I think I would much prefer to grab a good corner high in the draft and possibly another later at this point.

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5 minutes ago, Rav'n Maniac said:

I like what Claiborne brings when he can stay on the field but, the thought of both our top corners being down at the same time kinda throws a wrench in it for me. I think I would much prefer to grab a good corner high in the draft and possibly another later at this point.

That's probably what they will end up doing one in the first 2 rounds and another in 5th or 6th round

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Very curious to see what the offer is, assuming he actually does take it (it is La Canfora...), for Claiborne.  He really stepped up last year and looked like the high pick he once was, but he also got injured once again and still hasn't played 16 games in his career.  I like the idea behind it if the price is reasonable but pairing him up with Jimmy has me worried with how much time both of them have missed in their careers.

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I honestly view Claiborne as a fall back option. If we don't get the CB we want in the draft than we have him to rely upon. Still think we should invest one highly because him and Jimmy struggle to stay healthy, in the end I think this can make picking a pass rusher/WR our two biggest needs if/when Claiborne is signed. 

Edited by PurpleCity5
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