Next Up: Ravens Free Agents--Who goes? Who stays?

[PurpleCity5]

1 hour ago, usmccharles said:

I cant remember, are you in the keep Wagner or keep Bwill train?

Depending on the money BWill, it's such a toss up but if I were to make the call and I would get BW at a good price than give me BW. 

Edited January 18 by PurpleCity5

[usmccharles]

8 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

Depending on the money BWill, it's such a toss up but if I were to make the call and I would get BW at a good price than give me BW. 

understandable.  Im more on the Wagner side, just want to keep a line together for once. 

[rossihunter2]

7 hours ago, usmccharles said:

understandable.  Im more on the Wagner side, just want to keep a line together for once. 

I have a feeling they're both on the way out - bwill I think is gone because someone will throw a huge amount of money at him and I can never begrudge someone to go and make a ton of money - Wagner I think is gone because the impression seems to be that we want to go back to a power game and because he might price himself out of here given the lack of good tackles in free agency (there is decent talent elsewhere on the line but not tackle)

[usmccharles]

2 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

I have a feeling they're both on the way out - bwill I think is gone because someone will throw a huge amount of money at him and I can never begrudge someone to go and make a ton of money - Wagner I think is gone because the impression seems to be that we want to go back to a power game and because he might price himself out of here given the lack of good tackles in free agency (there is decent talent elsewhere on the line but not tackle)

Yea i have no issues with guys getting paid, obviously im jealous.  I think letting them both go will hurt a lot, keeping the continuity on the line for once would be nice, it seems we never keep any unit together and just have a revolving door.  Id be fine with paying Wagner 7, because it can definitely get worse. 

[rossihunter2]

4 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Yea i have no issues with guys getting paid, obviously im jealous.  I think letting them both go will hurt a lot, keeping the continuity on the line for once would be nice, it seems we never keep any unit together and just have a revolving door.  Id be fine with paying Wagner 7, because it can definitely get worse. 

Wagner may well come back - I was just saying that given the rumours of a change in blocking style he might not be the ideal right tackle for that kind of system and the fo might therefore feel ok about letting him leave and pick up a comp pick

[usmccharles]

Just now, rossihunter2 said:

Wagner may well come back - I was just saying that given the rumours of a change in blocking style he might not be the ideal right tackle for that kind of system and the fo might therefore feel ok about letting him leave and pick up a comp pick

Ah, i havent really heard of the changes.  That would make sense, its just a dangerous game

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I don't think BWill gets Harrison money. 

He'll get paid but below Harrison. Harrison was the best run stuffer in the league, and still is. Believe he was AllPro this year with Donald at DT. He's now proven to be very good in a 4-3 as well. And even though he's also limited as a pass rusher he has shown far more in that dept than BWill. 

Perception is everything. I think Harrison was viewed as an elite DT/NT and best run stopper in the league. I think BWill is viewed as an elite run stopper but at best a 2 down player. 

I don't think he gets above $8m per year. 

Hes been underrated for so long that I honestly think that narrative has swung our perception to where we're now overrating him to compensate for the lack of rating he gets nationally. 

I hope he's back but I can't see throwing more than $7-8m at him when Pierce can be nearly as good a run defender with much higher pass rush upside. 

[usmccharles]

1 minute ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I don't think BWill gets Harrison money. 

He'll get paid but below Harrison. Harrison was the best run stuffer in the league, and still is. Believe he was AllPro this year with Donald at DT. He's now proven to be very good in a 4-3 as well. And even though he's also limited as a pass rusher he has shown far more in that dept than BWill. 

Perception is everything. I think Harrison was viewed as an elite DT/NT and best run stopper in the league. I think BWill is viewed as an elite run stopper but at best a 2 down player. 

I don't think he gets above $8m per year. 

Hes been underrated for so long that I honestly think that narrative has swung our perception to where we're now overrating him to compensate for the lack of rating he gets nationally. 

I hope he's back but I can't see throwing more than $7-8m at him when Pierce can be nearly as good a run defender with much higher pass rush upside. 

I could see us keeping him for the 7ish a year. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

21 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

I could see us keeping him for the 7ish a year. 

Id be totally fine with that. And ultimately think it's what he gets and we'll be willing to pay it to lock up a core, young leader for the future. 

But if someone goes bananas and offers $10m ish... run away. 

Hes not as good a run defender as Harrison... and Harrison at least isn't a liability on 3rd down. He gives you something. 

So his market should be far smaller. 2 down run stuffing NT in a 3-4. Just hope that makes him $1-2m/yr cheaper for our sake. 

[usmccharles]

Just now, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Id be totally fine with that. And ultimately think it's what he gets and we'll be willing to pay it to lock up a core, young leader for the future. 

But if someone goes bananas and offers $10m ish... run away. 

Hes not as good a run defender as Harrison... and Harrison at least isn't a liability on 3rd down. He gives you something. 

So his market should be far smaller. 2 down run stuffing NT in a 3-4. Just hope that makes him $1-2m/yr cheaper for our sake. 

Having continuity on both sides would be amazing, we better at least keep one. 

[ellicottraven]

29 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I don't think BWill gets Harrison money. 

He'll get paid but below Harrison. Harrison was the best run stuffer in the league, and still is. Believe he was AllPro this year with Donald at DT. He's now proven to be very good in a 4-3 as well. And even though he's also limited as a pass rusher he has shown far more in that dept than BWill. 

Perception is everything. I think Harrison was viewed as an elite DT/NT and best run stopper in the league. I think BWill is viewed as an elite run stopper but at best a 2 down player. 

I don't think he gets above $8m per year. 

Hes been underrated for so long that I honestly think that narrative has swung our perception to where we're now overrating him to compensate for the lack of rating he gets nationally. 

I hope he's back but I can't see throwing more than $7-8m at him when Pierce can be nearly as good a run defender with much higher pass rush upside. 

Well stated. I agree he went from being somewhat overlooked and underrated to becoming vastly overrated. I think the only way we keep him or should keep him is in the 7 to upper 7 range per year. Anything more, let him walk.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

14 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

Well stated. I agree he went from being somewhat overlooked and underrated to becoming vastly overrated. I think the only way we keep him or should keep him is in the 7 to upper 7 range per year. Anything more, let him walk.

Agreed. 

His strength - stopping the run - he's not as good as Harrison. Both eat blocks, but Harrison more frequently gets into the backfield and stops the play himself. Pretty sure he's had the #1 run stop percentage in the NFL the past 2 years.  

BWill more eats blocks and clogs lanes so other guys can come clean and make the stop. Very valuable but he's not quite the one man wrecking crew that Snacks is. 

And he offers nothing in terms of pass rush. Harrison isn't great in that dept but he's much better than BWill there. 

 

So I just can't see him setting the market again or even equaling Harrison's deal. I think his value here will be higher than it is anywhere else... and there's only a handful of teams that can really use a player like BWill. 

And out of those I just don't know how many will place a premium on a 2 down run stuffer. 

Start at $6-7m... be willing to go maybe even as high as $8m over 5 years and get it done. And keep his cap hit pretty even years 3-5 so it becomes more and more of a value as he hopefully continues to improve. 

[rossihunter2]

3 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I don't think BWill gets Harrison money. 

He'll get paid but below Harrison. Harrison was the best run stuffer in the league, and still is. Believe he was AllPro this year with Donald at DT. He's now proven to be very good in a 4-3 as well. And even though he's also limited as a pass rusher he has shown far more in that dept than BWill. 

Perception is everything. I think Harrison was viewed as an elite DT/NT and best run stopper in the league. I think BWill is viewed as an elite run stopper but at best a 2 down player. 

I don't think he gets above $8m per year. 

Hes been underrated for so long that I honestly think that narrative has swung our perception to where we're now overrating him to compensate for the lack of rating he gets nationally. 

I hope he's back but I can't see throwing more than $7-8m at him when Pierce can be nearly as good a run defender with much higher pass rush upside. 

Given what snacks got, the fact that they are similar players and Williams played well this year (nearly as well as snacks played in his contract year), and inflation due to the salary cap and I reckon there's no way some team with loads of salary cap doesn't look at the success the giants had on defence this year and go "I want a piece of that" and throw money at the next best thing which will be Brandon williams 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

1 hour ago, rossihunter2 said:

Given what snacks got, the fact that they are similar players and Williams played well this year (nearly as well as snacks played in his contract year), and inflation due to the salary cap and I reckon there's no way some team with loads of salary cap doesn't look at the success the giants had on defence this year and go "I want a piece of that" and throw money at the next best thing which will be Brandon williams 

He's not as good a run defender and offers no pass rush. 

Snacks doesnt just eat blocks for others to clean up... he's had the highest run stop percentage in the NFL two years running. And while not great at it he at least can rush the passer. 

Obviously the Giants viewed him as a 3 down guy good enough to transition to a 4-3. Teams aren't gonna just go by reputation and say ok they're pretty equal players. Both great against the run but Harrison was much better at shedding his blocks to penetrate and stop the ball carrier for no gain or a loss. 

Seems to me that would be evidence of an ability to produce a little more on 3rd down if put in a role to do so. Plus no ones looking at the Giants improved D and attributing it all or even most of it to Harrison. 

He played great (and imo showed why he got/will have gotten more than BWill) but Olivier Vernon, healthy JPP, Landon Collins, and the former rams CB whose name is escaping me might have something to say about that. 

We obviously value BWill a ton and we even basically view him as a limited 2 down guy. 

I could very well be proven wrong but I think Snacks proved this year he's a superior player in almost every way and more than a really good block eating run stuffer. 

If someone does happen to throw Harrison money or more at him thinking he can be more than a 2 down NT I think they're going to be disappointed. And looking around the league I just don't see many money+need fits. 

[Halshayeji]

On January 17, 2017 at 9:21 PM, VermontRaven said:

While I agree with you that we miss KO and Lewis wasn't as good as KO, I think we are not giving Lewis enough credit.  He was a 4th round pick in his rookie year.  I haven't went back and compared, but if we compared KO year 1 vs. Lewis year 1, my guess is that they would be pretty comparable (anyone feel free to chime in here if they have actually reviewed tape to compare).  I am hopeful that Lewis turns into a KO-type player, but that is yet to be seen.  I was happy with what I saw from him (Lewis) and hope he continues to progress next year.  We have him on a rookie contract and if he continues to progress, we are going to have one heck of a value at LG for a few years!

I'm not gonna go back and watch film just to break my heart lol. But I do remember KOs first year. He showed flashes of greatness and flashes of a lost rookie. Lewis didn't jump off my screen as often but also made less mistakes. Maybe it's because KO played a lot of LT as a rookie.

but we can both agree on this. Lewis far exceeded expectations of a 4th rounder and it seems like the sky is his limit. I look forward to him making another leap in his development and hope he stays a Raven for a long time. 

[VermontRaven]

2 hours ago, Halshayeji said:

I'm not gonna go back and watch film just to break my heart lol. But I do remember KOs first year. He showed flashes of greatness and flashes of a lost rookie. Lewis didn't jump off my screen as often but also made less mistakes. Maybe it's because KO played a lot of LT as a rookie.

but we can both agree on this. Lewis far exceeded expectations of a 4th rounder and it seems like the sky is his limit. I look forward to him making another leap in his development and hope he stays a Raven for a long time. 

Thanks for the insight.  I honestly couldn't remember KO's play as a rookie.  I don't have the time or football knowledge to accurately dissect individual play, so I enjoy coming on here and getting people's insight into these things.  Regardless of comparisons to KO, I am very excited for Lewis' potential.  I am really hopeful that Stanley and Lewis become an above average to dominant left side of the line for us for years to come.  Obviously, I am jumping the gun here--not saying that WILL happen, but am hopeful that it will happen.

[Purple_City39]

6 hours ago, Halshayeji said:

I'm not gonna go back and watch film just to break my heart lol. But I do remember KOs first year. He showed flashes of greatness and flashes of a lost rookie. Lewis didn't jump off my screen as often but also made less mistakes. Maybe it's because KO played a lot of LT as a rookie.

but we can both agree on this. Lewis far exceeded expectations of a 4th rounder and it seems like the sky is his limit. I look forward to him making another leap in his development and hope he stays a Raven for a long time. 

KO played exclusively at RT during the regular season of his rookie year and honestly, he wasn't all that great.  He showed serious strength in the run game but was beat often as a pass blocker.  Without looking, I think he allowed around 9 sacks with another 5 penalties or so.  He was basically Oher.  

But when they moved him to LG in the post season, that's when he became a dominant o-lineman.

Lewis won't be the mauler in the run game that KO was, but he'll be a very good pass blocker and a good run blocker overall

[rmw10]

Ravens holding a press conference tomorrow at 11am with Harbaugh and Ozzie.  Jerry Coleman hears it's about a player.  Potential re-signing already?  Nothing major referring to those who overreacted and assumed Ozzie was retiring or something.

 

[balfan23]

1 minute ago, rmw10 said:

Ravens holding a press conference tomorrow at 11am with Harbaugh and Ozzie.  Jerry Coleman hears it's about a player.  Potential re-signing already?  Nothing major referring to those who overreacted and assumed Ozzie was retiring or something.

 

It could possibly mean that the player involved isn't major. I'd be surprised if we already signed of one of our more high valued FAs. 

[rmw10]

4 minutes ago, balfan23 said:

It could possibly mean that the player involved isn't major. I'd be surprised if we already signed of one of our more high valued FAs. 

We're also calling a press conference though, which isn't customary either.  Regardless, I'd expect it to be Juice or someone like that if it is a re-signing.

Edited January 20 by rmw10

[balfan23]

3 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

We're also calling a press conference though, which isn't customary either.  Regardless, I'd expect it to be Juice or someone like that if it is a re-signing.

Yeah ... Juice would be probably the biggest name I'd anticipate. I just don't think it will be Wagner or Williams. 

Another possibility ... could it be an extension for someone? Anyone going into their last year of their contract that we might be giving a new contract? Perhaps Mosley? 

[rmw10]

1 minute ago, balfan23 said:

Yeah ... Juice would be probably the biggest name I'd anticipate. I just don't think it will be Wagner or Williams. 

Another possibility ... could it be an extension for someone? Anyone going into their last year of their contract that we might be giving a new contract? 

Wallace and Webb are pretty much the only veterans that would fit the bill.  You have Mosley (but he still has the 5th year option) and Jernigan as the only guys with expiring rookie contracts that would make sense at this point.

[balfan23]

I'll just wait for the alert on my phone ... 

[rmw10]

5 minutes ago, balfan23 said:

I'll just wait for the alert on my phone ... 

Probably for the best.  Knowing Coleman, this could not be about a player at all.  Definitely interesting how silent everything is though.

[rmw10]

Orr maybe this is it...

 

[JO_75]

16 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Orr maybe this is it...

 

Nice.... If this is what it is then I love the move. To have both LB positions locked in for once will be awesome. I was thinking Orr was going to play himself into a new contract like Scott and Ellerbe have done in the past that was overpaid. Hopefully Wagner's deal will be done next.

[jazz1988]

19 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Orr maybe this is it...

 

Interesting 

[The Raven]

If we re-sign Orr, it makes me think what Mosley's long term future is. I don't think it's that common these days to have more than one ILB type locked up with good money. 

[jboy19]

Resigning Orr then coming back next year to try and retain Mosley is so 2003. 

[allblackraven]

32 minutes ago, The Raven said:

If we re-sign Orr, it makes me think what Mosley's long term future is. I don't think it's that common these days to have more than one ILB type locked up with good money. 

Orr perhaps doesn't cost too much to retain?