2017 edge rusher

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, Boddiebroadus said:

I agree with Harris as being one of the top pure pass rushers but that's all he can do. He quits on run plays and has no pursuit. He seems almost selfish as a player cause if he's not getting the sack then he doesn't care. (May be totally not true) that's just what I see as a more than casual fan. 

Tak on the other hand is no where near the skill that Harris has but he goes all out on every play. He gets his sacks with just pure effort and fight. I like that in a football player. Without knowing too much about him but players like that can be coached up but he is for sure a project. 

As for Thomas, I just watched most of his bowl game and dude is smart and strong. He diagnosed a few screens so quickly I was very impressed. He does rarely rush for the edge and he for sure would need to work on that. But he extends very well and fights through double teams. I like him a lot but maybe not enough to say we "need" him.

im not sure about takks effort. maybe hes trying really hard and just doesnt know what to do, but he gets stationary and just locks onto tackles and kinda stands there so often. 

also, mizzou edge rushers are known for that, not sure why but aldon smith and shane ray both had the same issue and neither of them had effort problems in the nfl. markus golden was the only high effort guy i recall from there. 

and yeah thomas is a hell of a player in general, that tweener label can be a killer though. jonathan bullard was one of the most disruptive players in college football and he sunk like a stone in the draft because he was too small for DT/5T and not explosive enough to play DE. thomas could very much be seen in the same light, hes built like a big bodied 34-OLB but has never shown the bend or first step needed there, he has an incredible skillset to play 3T but looks too small, and as a 43DE he might not have the length or the ability to work the outside lane. i like thomas a lot but i really think he falls inbetween like 3 positions and doesnt look ideal for any of them.

[Italian Raven]

5 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

im not sure about takks effort. maybe hes trying really hard and just doesnt know what to do, but he gets stationary and just locks onto tackles and kinda stands there so often. 

Well, I don´t know if we´ve been watching the same player then  You know, I always politely respect yours opinion and love how many people on here love digging into tapes.. so no harm.
I agree that he doesn´t have an array of disengagement moves and he´s not the most natural pass-rusher in the class. But his effort is pretty much on display imo. He´s ralentless and plays the run with power and discipline.. he´s second to none in that. I don´t know how coachable those pass-rushing moves are but it´s definitely an easier task than teaching Harris how to stick with his assignments and foremost play with any resemblance of phisicality.
One other thing you will notice is that he´s always around the football. Proof that regardless of what side the ball is going he will chase it.

There´s a ton of plays I could mention here but I´ll post just a few. (again, if someone knows a better gif maker than this one I´m using, please let me know).

Play #1: 
I had never see anybody fighting through a triple team with such a vigor.


#2:
He´s playiing MLB here. And yes he´s unblocked, but he takes off 5 yards off the LOS and is so fast that the RB doesn´t have time to come off the backfield. He finishes by changing direction almost simultaneously to the QB.  That´s some serious athleticism and instinct.


#3:
A good display of strenght, as not only he stops his momentum and turns toward the QB but also maintains good leverage despite the unfavorable condition (he has exposed the left side to the T) 


#4
This is quite a show of power and effort.. destroys his man and chases the RB for a TFL.

#5
Another display of great effort, chasing the QB after winning on the outside.


Careful, I´m not suggesting we should consider him before a T.Williams. Just wanting to give his skills some credit

[JoeyFlex5]

I guess I should clarify im not saying takk is low effort. Im saying that he very often is caught by tie tackle right off the jump and proceeds to do nothing to break loose. 

This was most apparent in his Stanford film where he was blanked any time he faced the LT and the majority of those plays consisted of locking onto the tackles shoulders and and pushing and shoving. 

Like I said earlier I think it's more that he doesn't know how to disengage and at times it looks really bad. But that isn't even my concern because that's very coachable, my concern is the stiffness, because that rarely changes and I see a very stiff and upright player in takk. 

[rossihunter2]

Just now, JoeyFlex5 said:

I guess I should clarify im not saying takk is low effort. Im saying that he very often is caught by tie tackle right off the jump and proceeds to do nothing to break loose. 

This was most apparent in his Stanford film where he was blanked any time he faced the LT and the majority of those plays consisted of locking onto the tackles shoulders and and pushing and shoving. 

Like I said earlier I think it's more that he doesn't know how to disengage and at times it looks really bad. But that isn't even my concern because that's very coachable, my concern is the stiffness, because that rarely changes and I see a very stiff and upright player in takk. 

i think my worry - and why i prefer other players to him is that he is too easily dealt with at this point - whatever the reasons for it i dont mind - but he's certainly not someone i want at 16 and if im honest i wouldnt take him until the 2nd and even then it depends on who else is there - that being said i do like his effort which is one of the reasons i dont like charles harris as much as others on this thread

[cfly]

One of my personal favorite pass rushers I've watched is Ejuan Price. We should look at him In the 2nd/3rd round

[JoeyFlex5]

36 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

i think my worry - and why i prefer other players to him is that he is too easily dealt with at this point - whatever the reasons for it i dont mind - but he's certainly not someone i want at 16 and if im honest i wouldnt take him until the 2nd and even then it depends on who else is there - that being said i do like his effort which is one of the reasons i dont like charles harris as much as others on this thread

I look at a bigger picture with Harris. One of the speediest and most explosive rushers in the draft, probably the second in that regard. In a situation where a majority of guys with his natural ability coast by on athleticism, he didn't. He has great hand usage and a mental understanding of beating blockers. Some of the best edge rushers in college still have no clue how to use their hands or rush moves and we see it year after year, so im not gonna question motor or work ethic of a supreme athlete edge rusher who actually has a pro ready skill set. That comes with work and desire. 

Its like bosa last year. People questioned his desire due to his laid back demeanor and old reports of partying, but ignored his obvious workaholic mentality to have a grown mans body at age 21 and the best hand usage seen in years and the fact that he moved off campus to avoid the noise of college. Those things don't happen with a prospect who doesn't care/gives no effort.

[rossihunter2]

57 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I look at a bigger picture with Harris. One of the speediest and most explosive rushers in the draft, probably the second in that regard. In a situation where a majority of guys with his natural ability coast by on athleticism, he didn't. He has great hand usage and a mental understanding of beating blockers. Some of the best edge rushers in college still have no clue how to use their hands or rush moves and we see it year after year, so im not gonna question motor or work ethic of a supreme athlete edge rusher who actually has a pro ready skill set. That comes with work and desire. 

Its like bosa last year. People questioned his desire due to his laid back demeanor and old reports of partying, but ignored his obvious workaholic mentality to have a grown mans body at age 21 and the best hand usage seen in years and the fact that he moved off campus to avoid the noise of college. Those things don't happen with a prospect who doesn't care/gives no effort.

im gonna go back and watch some more chris harris film - see if i like him more afterwards

[Jacquouille]

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I look at a bigger picture with Harris. One of the speediest and most explosive rushers in the draft, probably the second in that regard. In a situation where a majority of guys with his natural ability coast by on athleticism, he didn't. He has great hand usage and a mental understanding of beating blockers. Some of the best edge rushers in college still have no clue how to use their hands or rush moves and we see it year after year, so im not gonna question motor or work ethic of a supreme athlete edge rusher who actually has a pro ready skill set. That comes with work and desire. 

Its like bosa last year. People questioned his desire due to his laid back demeanor and old reports of partying, but ignored his obvious workaholic mentality to have a grown mans body at age 21 and the best hand usage seen in years and the fact that he moved off campus to avoid the noise of college. Those things don't happen with a prospect who doesn't care/gives no effort.

 

28 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

im gonna go back and watch some more chris harris film - see if i like him more afterwards

Harris was a 2-star recruit, so to have the hand usage and pass rush moves varity that he has speaks for itself.

And while the main problem with him is his stiffness, the fact that he has this absurd spin move makes up for it. While most ED try to win outside and have an inside counter move to keep OTs guessing, Harris does the opposite. He has just what he needs to win outside if the OT overcommits inside. 

[rossihunter2]

right ive had another look at charles harris - i wish i could find more tape of him because he is interesting but ive now seen quite a bit

upon review:

harris looks like a man amongst boys and as you said @JoeyFlex5 but he plays way too high which gives some of the opposing offensive tackles a chance which they really shouldnt have had going back and looking because he was way to athletic for them - i like the fact that he can bull when tackles get hands on and that spin move is good (although i think he could time it even better - i kept seeing him start the spin just a little early which tackles at the nfl level will be able to recover against - that being said it is a powerful vicious move) - i know you like his hands but he doesnt have quite the same violent rip as other edge rushers in this class like tim williams

that being said, protection and extra blockers or chips are often slid his way and he still makes plays by splitting blocks or stacking them - he looks at his best when he's slashing through gaps and using his speed - on review i do actually think his first step is a little slow sometimes and he looks a little stiff bending the edge but he's just physically so much better than the players he faced

he needs more work on diagnosing plays and not chasing empty space - he often over-pursues a play when he's unblocked which springs the opposing offense for big gains but i also saw him get there so quickly one time that the disguised hand off hadnt even been completed (the qb was trying to read i think) and he ended up getting a hand on the rb while also sacking the qb

my second impression of charles harris is a lot better than my first - im still not sure i like him at 16 though

[Edgar]

On 1/4/2017 at 9:59 AM, therez112 said:

Not an edge rusher, and while the highlights are great, the guy can be lazy. I live in MI so I got to see lots of Mich State games, and last year and the early part of this season - he played pretty hard. Once this season fell apart for MSU, he started to just go through the motions and started taking plays off. In my eyes, he is another Jernigan

Displays skill set to be dominant 3~4 DE and that's how teams will view him.

Not close to Jernigan.

[JoeyFlex5]

16 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

right ive had another look at charles harris - i wish i could find more tape of him because he is interesting but ive now seen quite a bit

upon review:

harris looks like a man amongst boys and as you said @JoeyFlex5 but he plays way too high which gives some of the opposing offensive tackles a chance which they really shouldnt have had going back and looking because he was way to athletic for them - i like the fact that he can bull when tackles get hands on and that spin move is good (although i think he could time it even better - i kept seeing him start the spin just a little early which tackles at the nfl level will be able to recover against - that being said it is a powerful vicious move) - i know you like his hands but he doesnt have quite the same violent rip as other edge rushers in this class like tim williams

that being said, protection and extra blockers or chips are often slid his way and he still makes plays by splitting blocks or stacking them - he looks at his best when he's slashing through gaps and using his speed - on review i do actually think his first step is a little slow sometimes and he looks a little stiff bending the edge but he's just physically so much better than the players he faced

he needs more work on diagnosing plays and not chasing empty space - he often over-pursues a play when he's unblocked which springs the opposing offense for big gains but i also saw him get there so quickly one time that the disguised hand off hadnt even been completed (the qb was trying to read i think) and he ended up getting a hand on the rb while also sacking the qb

my second impression of charles harris is a lot better than my first - im still not sure i like him at 16 though

agreed with all of it. thats basically everything i would say about him as well. and yeah his hands arent as violent as a guy like tim williams, its the refinement, hes quick and smart with them, he handfights and keeps blockers from latching on in his core, if they wanna get 2 hands on him they have to hold, otherwise all they can do is bump and slide to block him which doesnt work against a guy who works the inside lane so well. 

i definitely have an issue with his stiffness, if he had some real bend then i think hes a top 10 type of guy but the fact that he so often relies on the inside rush drops him quite a bit, he just doesnt have that balance to bend the edge, he DOES bend alright at times but it usually ends with him either losing balance and taking himself out of the play or he BARELY finishes before he loses it.

[JoeyFlex5]

1 minute ago, Edgar said:

Displays skill set to be dominant 3~4 DE and that's how teams will view him.

Not close to Jernigan.

are you referring to mcdowell?

[rossihunter2]

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

i definitely have an issue with his stiffness, if he had some real bend then i think hes a top 10 type of guy but the fact that he so often relies on the inside rush drops him quite a bit, he just doesnt have that balance to bend the edge, he DOES bend alright at times but it usually ends with him either losing balance and taking himself out of the play or he BARELY finishes before he loses it.

i guess the real difference of opinion i have here is not the facts of what's wrong/right about him but how it will affect his draft stock - i see that occasional tendency to bull the inside shoulder of the tackle, that stiffness and his inconsistency as something that really might drop him into the second round especially in such a rich pass rushing year

[JoeyFlex5]

13 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

i guess the real difference of opinion i have here is not the facts of what's wrong/right about him but how it will affect his draft stock - i see that occasional tendency to bull the inside shoulder of the tackle, that stiffness and his inconsistency as something that really might drop him into the second round especially in such a rich pass rushing year

hrmm im not sure he falls to the second. hes got his issues but he is still clearly in that tier of players who belong in the first. after garrett, you got barnett and williams in tier 2 and obvious first rounders, then you have charles harris who is a notch below them but a notch above guys like mckinley and landry. i just dont see him falling that far, one of the playoff teams are gonna see a chance to get a good pro ready speed rusher and pounce because playoff teams dont typically get a shot at those kinds of talents.

[Boddiebroadus]

Who are some mid to late round prospects?

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, Boddiebroadus said:

Who are some mid to late round prospects?

Well there's a couple hundred of them

[Boddiebroadus]

6 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Well there's a couple hundred of them

What about Hasson Reddick? I just came across his tape and dude looks legit. He's light but a freak athlete. I watched his tape vs Memphis and a highlight video but I was impressed. 

[Boddiebroadus]

he wears 7 & 58

[ravensnation5220]

Takk McKinley is shooting up my rankings right now. I know he doesn't have elite bend but he has all the tools to be an elite edge defender. If he comes in to Baltimore he can learn all the hand usage moves he needs to under suggs. He's very raw but I think he's very coachable as well. I can't wait to see him at the senior bowl I think his stock w/o continue to rise up to the draft and I wouldn't be shocked if he came to Baltimore.  

[ravensnation5220]

On 1/7/2017 at 4:58 PM, JoeyFlex5 said:

I guess I should clarify im not saying takk is low effort. Im saying that he very often is caught by tie tackle right off the jump and proceeds to do nothing to break loose. 

This was most apparent in his Stanford film where he was blanked any time he faced the LT and the majority of those plays consisted of locking onto the tackles shoulders and and pushing and shoving. 

Like I said earlier I think it's more that he doesn't know how to disengage and at times it looks really bad. But that isn't even my concern because that's very coachable, my concern is the stiffness, because that rarely changes and I see a very stiff and upright player in takk. 

Disengaging moves are something that can be taught. It's all handplacement which he hasn't learns yet. Seeing his bull rush I think he has the power in his hands to do that very well. He's shown he can play standing up or a hand in the ground and his inhuman athleticism is something that should garner top 15 consideration. When you match top level athleticism with effort then you can feel more comfortable taking a boom or bust prospect like Takk because you know he will work on his craft

Unlike Charles Harris who, in the game by game stats seems to disappear and shows up in 3 or 4 games and dominates. Harris is more refined yet I feel his ceiling doesn't match that of Takk. Harris is more of a you see what you get kind of prospect 

I also remember you saying demarcus ware is the one of the best benders you've ever seen and a scout according to NFL.com said that Takk could be the next demarcus ware. 

Edited January 9 by ravensnation5220

[Boddiebroadus]

I'm flip flopping on takk. At first I was down on him then I liked him a lot and now I'm back down on him. I just hate that he has to be coached just to stick out his hand and not let the tackle not get into his body. I mean that has to be taught at the college level so there is no reason he shouldn't at least have that down. 

[JoeyFlex5]

11 hours ago, ravensnation5220 said:

Disengaging moves are something that can be taught. It's all handplacement which he hasn't learns yet. Seeing his bull rush I think he has the power in his hands to do that very well. He's shown he can play standing up or a hand in the ground and his inhuman athleticism is something that should garner top 15 consideration. When you match top level athleticism with effort then you can feel more comfortable taking a boom or bust prospect like Takk because you know he will work on his craft

Unlike Charles Harris who, in the game by game stats seems to disappear and shows up in 3 or 4 games and dominates. Harris is more refined yet I feel his ceiling doesn't match that of Takk. Harris is more of a you see what you get kind of prospect 

I also remember you saying demarcus ware is the one of the best benders you've ever seen and a scout according to NFL.com said that Takk could be the next demarcus ware. 

i said ware has the best bend ive ever seen and takk is quite stiff and doesnt have near the same abilities. i dont trust any draft coverage on nfl.com because that place is more social media than sports coverage at this point and they have incompetent analysts. the reach and first step is the only comparison between those 2 but he certainly isnt getting low and bending the edge like ware. i know harris isnt doing that either but he does other things much better. 

and harris had a slow start to the season and came on strong midway, slow starts happen, no big deal imo.

Edited January 9 by JoeyFlex5

[rossihunter2]

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

i said ware has the best bend ive ever seen and takk is quite stiff and doesnt have near the same abilities. i dont trust any draft coverage on nfl.com because that place is more social media than sports coverage at this point and they have incompetent analysts. the reach and first step is the only comparison between those 2 but he certainly isnt getting low and bending the edge like ware. i know harris isnt doing that either but he does other things much better. 

and harris had a slow start to the season and came on strong midway, slow starts happen, no big deal imo.

i hate the way that especially in the last couple of years daniel jeremiah and bucky brooks have stopped worrying about immense tape watching - they just role with the preeminent opinion apart from 1 or 2 prospects who they've seen live

and to think DJ got an interview for a high up scouting position or 2 in the last off season merry go round

[rossihunter2]

man, ryan anderson is killing it vs clemson

[JoeyFlex5]

Ryan Anderson's stock has now exploded. Dude might go at the very top of the second after playing like this.

[allblackraven]

17 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Ryan Anderson's stock has now exploded. Dude might go at the very top of the second after playing like this.

I keep telling everybody - he is playing like this all year. Last season, too. He's a baller and 1st rounder.

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, allblackraven said:

I keep telling everybody - he is playing like this all year. Last season, too. He's a baller and 1st rounder.

If he's there in the 2nd he's my guy. I have only watched tape and not actual games this year and I had not seen this kind of impact from him on film. 

He swapped spots with Tim Williams in my book. He's a gamer and Williams is not, damn the measurables 

[rossihunter2]

20 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

If he's there in the 2nd he's my guy. I have only watched tape and not actual games this year and I had not seen this kind of impact from him on film. 

He swapped spots with Tim Williams in my book. He's a gamer and Williams is not, damn the measurables 

yeah i was disappointed in williams this game - he still nearly came up with a couple of sacks (one where his cleat slipped and another where deshaun stepped up just in time) but it shows you how effective ryan anderson was that he comparatively disappeared

but man anderson looks like he plays with a chip the size of a mountain on his shoulder

Edited January 10 by rossihunter2

[RavensDieHard21]

59 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

If he's there in the 2nd he's my guy. I have only watched tape and not actual games this year and I had not seen this kind of impact from him on film. 

He swapped spots with Tim Williams in my book. He's a gamer and Williams is not, damn the measurables 

Second round is where you would take him? Idk in the playoffs he has looked insanely good. The one play where the RT kept trying to get to him and he just swooped around the edge and he batted his arm down 3-4 times was gold. He never stopped, kept great burst and kept the RT a mile away. 

[Boddiebroadus]

Anderson would be a fantastic trade down target. Omg