2017 edge rusher

[GrimCoconut]

18 minutes ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

Andersen from Bama looks like a second rounder. Not elite, but plays with that smash mouth style.

I feel like there will be better guys available than him in the second. He's not bad but I don't see 2nd round "it" factorwith him. 

[JoeyFlex5]

17 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

I feel like there will be better guys available than him in the second. He's not bad but I don't see 2nd round "it" factorwith him. 

agreed. steady player, nothing special to take him in the mid 2nd. i wouldnt consider him til the very late 2nd.

[RaineV1]

With Watt being added to the mix, there's a decent chance for another edge rusher to fall to use in the mid 2nd round.

[JoeyFlex5]

anyone have some film of tj watt?

[hn68wb4]

48 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

anyone have some film of tj watt?

There isn't anything specifically him yet, but Vince Biegel has some tape on draft breakdown, just remember Watt is #42 and is on the other side. Not the best but for whatever reason he just doesn't have any videos on the site. Also, it's pretty easy to find other games by looking at their schedule and searching for offensive players on the other team, for example Corey Davis already has tape up from the bowl game against Wisconsin, you can use that to pick Watt out and watch a bit of him. I hope some of his tape gets posted soon though.

[GrimCoconut]

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

anyone have some film of tj watt?

I don't have film but I watched quite a bit of Wisconsin this year (one of the few teams I actually watched outside UMD and a few other teams I keyed in on like A&M and Alabama).  TJ is a pretty talented player.  I'd take him at 16 right now.  That may change come draft day, but I like what I see in him and I think he will rise.

17 minutes ago, hn68wb4 said:

There isn't anything specifically him yet, but Vince Biegel has some tape on draft breakdown, just remember Watt is #42 and is on the other side. Not the best but for whatever reason he just doesn't have any videos on the site. Also, it's pretty easy to find other games by looking at their schedule and searching for offensive players on the other team, for example Corey Davis already has tape up from the bowl game against Wisconsin, you can use that to pick Watt out and watch a bit of him. I hope some of his tape gets posted soon though.

You think TJ will be as special or half as special as his brother? I think he could be. He has a lot of upside and is still pretty raw but unlike Correa TJ actually understands football.  

[hn68wb4]

15 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

You think TJ will be as special or half as special as his brother? I think he could be. He has a lot of upside and is still pretty raw but unlike Correa TJ actually understands football.  

I don't know if he'll ever be that good, but he definitely displays everything you want out of an edge guy. I think that, given the right situation and proper development, the sky is the limit for him. He's got those instincts that you just can't teach, and it's hard to argue with his bloodline. His floor seems, to me at least, to be higher than most at the position. I'm still not sure I'm comfortable with him at #16, but I'd love to have him if we trade back or trade up in the second, if he's around at ~35 then I'd say trade up no questions asked. 

I'm holding out on forming an opinion on Correa, I'll give him a shot before shooting him down.

Edited January 4 by hn68wb4

[Dubs]

On January 2, 2017 at 2:34 PM, TNRaven24 said:

Since Garrett and Barnett will be gone, I'm hoping Taco Charlton is the pick.  Not a big fan of Tim Williams

Not sure I would call Taco a first but I really have enjoyed watching him with Michigan this year. He has a body a similar to Preston Smith and I think he does a good job in all aspects of his game...Not sure I would say first round talent but a guy i like a lot. I will also agree on not being a huge fan of Tim Williams, think he will have some troubles disengaging at the NFL level and from the few games I am scared he is a Mingo type

[GrimCoconut]

47 minutes ago, hn68wb4 said:

I don't know if he'll ever be that good, but he definitely displays everything you want out of an edge guy. I think that, given the right situation and proper development, the sky is the limit for him. He's got those instincts that you just can't teach, and it's hard to argue with his bloodline. His floor seems, to me at least, to be higher than most at the position. I'm still not sure I'm comfortable with him at #16, but I'd love to have him if we trade back or trade up in the second, if he's around at ~35 then I'd say trade up no questions asked. 

I'm holding out on forming an opinion on Correa, I'll give him a shot before shooting him down.

I'm not a fan of Correa but that's just my initial impression.  I'm not sure he will ever be the guy we want him to be.  But that's not the topic of conversation atm.  I really like TJ.  As for taking him 16th, I don't think it's a bad place to pick him but it really depends on who is also available.  He is a very enticing prospect because I see a lot of football IQ from him.

[rossihunter2]

Right so I've finally found some time to get into some of the tape and ive spent my entire evening looking at some edge rushers and these are my initial thoughts:

myles garrett is a physical phenomenon - he's just a freak, a little bit like clowney was - he's good against the pass and the run and is the de facto number 1 guy so far and i think he probably will be at the end of the process too - probably goes top 5, maybe even top 3 (i hesitate to say 1 or 2 because that seems to be qb 1 and qb 2 nowadays)

derek barnett has a good get off and diagnoses the run well, and seems to work out how to beat the tackle opposite him - i was impressed how quickly he worked out how to consistently beat cam robinson (alabama) round the edge even once cam robinson adjusted, he seems to sink and get low better than any of the other edge rushers in this class and uses his hands really well too

tim williams is flashy - he never plays against the run - either because he's no good or coz bama never needed him to but my word does he get off the ball quick - his get off, anticipation and technique are really good - the only reason i wouldn't put him with the other two is his lack of playing the run - but on obvious passing downs this guy is really exciting - saw a good spin move, and he consistently rips with his hands well (and just to briefly pick up on character concerns it looks like one incident and more of a misunderstanding than a real problem - obviously interviews will help which are to come but i wouldnt be worried in that sense - he has no other problems that ive heard about in that sense)

carl lawson is streakier than the above 3 - he plays some good technique and seems to find the ball well - saw a really impressive sack fumble (cant remember who against) but i wish he would bend the edge a bit better and the biggest knock on him is obviously his health issues - but going deeper he seems to have great stats but nothing really jumped off the screen - the 3 guys above all get off the ball so fast - the first two through sheer athleticism and williams just seems to know all the time - full disclosure i did watch those guys before lawson so may be judging him harshly but he seemed less flashy despite his high rate of good play

takk mckinley is myles garrett lite - he's an athlete who has little to no technique at the moment and is all effort and physical ability - he manhandles the linemen in front of him for better or worse - if he could use his hands better or had any rush moves he'd be even better - this guy is likely going to come alive in his second year as a pro (if he does) - i see mckinley at this point being another combine darling type player who sprints up draft boards when his measurables are ridiculous - when he does use a good shoulder bend and some hand ripping he is very very effective

demarcus walker straight off the bat looks more like a 3-4 DE than a pure OLB in a 3-4 system so he needs to either lose some weight or his edge rushing skills are going to be negated at the next level, he looks quick but he doesn't have the best get off which is pretty important too - demonstrates some good hand fighting skills but never really uses his physical traits to bully the lineman in front of him the way that mckinley and garrett etc do  but he does use some pass rush moves including a well-timed swim - against the run walker isnt always able to fight to stay at the line of scrimmage but looks to have good gap discipline - his body type does worry me though in the sense that it feels kind of like it's optimum is between positions and he's quite hot and cold - he does look effective rushing against inside lineman though

TJ watt - ill admit i havent seen much film on him yet because i wasnt really aware of him but from what ive seen and the way he talks it looks like he knows his defensive scheme really really well - he reads the ball and diagnoses the play really well, picking up blocks and moving from block to block and making things really difficult for the qb- i havent seen much athleticism yet but ive only watched a few plays so ill hold out on anything more incisive (id appreciate any advice on where to find some watt film) - with TJ i dont know if what i have seen so far is football acumen and iq or whether it's just being taught really well in the system

charles harris, solomon thomas and dawuane smoot (and Im sure there are others i need to look at too) i have yet to watch any film on but could find some film for them so will get round to that

 

anyway so far this looks like an incredibly attractive group of edge rushers - i think its safe to say that garrett and probably barnett will be gone when the ravens pick but there are at least 2 other rushers who look worthy of going in the first round from what ive seen so far - takk mckinley could be late first round if he does make it in, and demarcus walker looks like the kind of guy who could go down draft boards the more film they watch (a bit like kaufusi and the seahawks last year etc.)

anyway if there was ever a year to take a pass rusher early it's this one at a first look - it really looks good

my personal favourite at 16 (if he's there) would be tim williams - he'd need to be taught how to defend the run but his instincts and feel for the rush looks really good and those are things that cant really be taught - and his get off makes him look like he's been shot out of a cannon - he just reacts quicker than everybody else

at 48 there should be some fine choices anywho because of the depth at the top of this class - looks star-studded at a first glance - i think a team will gamble on takk at the end of the first but demarcus walker should be there and i imagine others will as well because they'll be pushed down by sheer volume of better talent

with teams higher up in the draft naturally reaching for qbs and Olineman (initial impressions for me arent that good for OL prospects at the very top) as per usual i think a good pass rushers will be available in the first 2 (maybe even 3 rounds depending on what i see from some of the other guys i have yet to look at but ive heard good things)

Edited January 4 by rossihunter2

[ravensnation5220]

 For all the solomon thomas fans. 

 

[allblackraven]

22 minutes ago, ravensnation5220 said:

 For all the solomon thomas fans. 

 

This thread is about edge rushers.

[rossihunter2]

36 minutes ago, ravensnation5220 said:

 For all the solomon thomas fans. 

 

he looks good in that highlight reel although i wouldn't exactly call him an edge rusher from looking at that - looks more like an interior rusher

[ravensnation5220]

28 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

This thread is about edge rushers.

 

13 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

he looks good in that highlight reel although i wouldn't exactly call him an edge rusher from looking at that - looks more like an interior rusher

Ya I know hes a little in between but I wasn't really thinking on where to post it. Just wanted to share it for people to see

[allblackraven]

8 minutes ago, ravensnation5220 said:

 

Ya I know hes a little in between but I wasn't really thinking on where to post it. Just wanted to share it for people to see

I get upset when I see some of these college D linemen who keep harassing QBs, then remember how our internal rush goes.

[rossihunter2]

1 hour ago, allblackraven said:

I get upset when I see some of these college D linemen who keep harassing QBs, then remember how our internal rush goes.

The Ravens aren't completely devoid of interior pass rush - it's just really inconsistent - that's the annoying thing because the flashes are there - first 6 games of the season Jernigan was dominant for example (then he disappeared)

[rmw10]

8 hours ago, allblackraven said:

This thread is about edge rushers.

 

8 hours ago, rossihunter2 said:

he looks good in that highlight reel although i wouldn't exactly call him an edge rusher from looking at that - looks more like an interior rusher

I still think he's more of a Michael Bennett, at least as far as how he'll be used goes.  He'll likely be a base 4-3 end that slides inside quite often, so there's some edge rush to him.

[therez112]

On 1/1/2017 at 9:47 PM, Edgar said:

I haven't seen anyone block Malik McDowell yet. ...from any position.

Just an animal who never stops working and routinely takes on and beats double teams from the nose.

Does tend to lower his head and lose the play at times and I've only seen three games but this guy is a dominant athlete/pass rusher.

Not an edge rusher, and while the highlights are great, the guy can be lazy. I live in MI so I got to see lots of Mich State games, and last year and the early part of this season - he played pretty hard. Once this season fell apart for MSU, he started to just go through the motions and started taking plays off. In my eyes, he is another Jernigan

[allblackraven]

22 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

I feel like there will be better guys available than him in the second. He's not bad but I don't see 2nd round "it" factorwith him. 

 

21 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

agreed. steady player, nothing special to take him in the mid 2nd. i wouldnt consider him til the very late 2nd.

I think Anderson is very underrated player in general. He might be the best edge setter in this class. Shows good instinct when dropping back to cover, can definitely turn the heat up when rushing, he can put up the serious fight with blockers, then get off the blocks and finish the plays. I sometimes am not sure who would I want more, him or Williams. Probably still Williams because speed kills and we have Juddon, who is somewhat similar player to Anderson, although Anderson on film looks better. Juddon proved he can play in the NFL though, it's yet to be seen with Anderson but I'd bet on him with no hesitation.

[rossihunter2]

solomon thomas looks more like an interior rush guy than a pure edge rusher

charles harris actually disappointed me given the hype id heard when i put some of the tape on - he is streaky in terms of his get off and ability to beat opponents around the edge - he can disappear for long stretches - he needs more work against the run, and his instincts/ability to diagnose leave something to be desired especially when he is left unblocked - he often chases the empty space - that being said he flashes real pass rush ability when he's on - he flies around the edge sometimes particularly if he gets off quick because he has a really quick first step which makes him really hard to place - he isnt helped by the fact that the team around him wasnt very good this year

ryan anderson looks like he has the foundations to be a very good edge defender in this league - he plays the run well, is quick to get to screens and is even alright in coverage which surprised me the most - he looks like he has a ton of upside if he can develop a better get off because he just looks quick and he looks right - watching the tape against arkansas made him an exciting prospect but he looks like he needs a bit more time to develop as a pass rusher - its important to remember that when rushing the passer he was often against the right tackle with tim williams taking more attention on the other side - that being said his traits and nouse look good - this all despite him maybe not having the ideal length and speed - but saying that he almost looked like a corner on his int in the cfb semi final last week and he just seems to relish making big hits and setting the tone (i have to say so far that it's actually joyful watching tape on the alabama defense - there's just so many guys)

dawuane smoot, however, was surprisingly not fun to watch on tape at all - in fact my eyes kept getting drawn away from him to the end at the other end of the line carroll phillips (so ill look at him purposefully as well later) - he looks like a guy who might get pressure without really finishing plays - he has some good athletic traits - he just looks bigger and faster than the guy opposite him but feels unfinished (which is fair enough) as a prospect - ultimately though i just dont see him getting to the qb enough which is obviously the number 1 thing you're looking for in an edge rusher and dawuane just doesnt look natural rushing the passer - he doesnt look like a guy who will rack up sacks at the next level 

tj watt is definitely one of the better run defenders ive come across so far he's strong at setting the edge and rarely gets pushed back - he is really strong and sinks his hips well and gets under linemen - he isnt amazing in coverage but very few outside linebackers are - but he mans the zone ok and does what he's supposed to - in terms of his pass rush he is really good at using his hands and lower body to beat defenders as soon as they make contact with him - often he looks like he's just manhandling the guy opposite him and he is athletically very gifted which helps him to do so - he has good length and good instincts - i thought i wouldnt like watching him and i dont want to compare him to jj because they are brothers but you can see that they've definitely talked football together because he finds and attacks the ball so quickly just like his brother - he knows the system really well (which i mentioned before almost as a negative but the more im watching the more it just looks like he knows football and is unafraid to let other players make plays and not lose contain or his assignments etc.) - if i were to knock him it would be that he doesnt ever vary his technique or moves and can be taken out of the game if the lineman gets hands on and a solid base which he allows to happen too much because he's just stronger than everyone else and doesnt extend his arms like he should - this also means his bull rushing isnt in an ideal place but these are all teachable and from what ive seen he really stacks up well against the other top 3-4 rushers in the class - he's also a natural 3-4olb he's not a hand in the ground convert if he comes to the ravens - not sure how much that will help

at this point the class is starting to come into shape - i dont think there will be anyone who comes out of nowhere to hit the first round out of any of these guys that ive heard of - albeit the only reason i knew to watch film on these guys is because they are the "top" guys

[rossihunter2]

i guess ill rudimentarily rank the above pass rushers and where i think grade separations are

Top of the draft: 1.) Garrett 2.) Barnett

Middle of the First round grades: 3.) Williams 4.) Watt 5.) Lawson

End of the first to mid-second: 6.) Mckinley 7.) Harris 8.) Anderson

End of second onwards: 9.) Smoot 10.) Walker

obviously there's more guys but it makes sense to have a breather after 10 - this really looks like a good class on pure pass rush - lawson obviously has injury concerns and mckinley is really raw but ive essentially given 7 guys at least borderline 1st round grades and id be surprised if any of the first 4 made it past the 20th pick (not taking into account need etc,) and if lawson's injury issues are assuaged then no way he makes it far past 20 either

[JoeyFlex5]

harold landry is a menace. he flies off the ball, and tackles are just playing a guessing game from the snap, you arent gonna block him by mirroring him, tackles need to anticipate and jump his moves because he  executes them so quick. still havent seen a true bend from him but he is certainly flexible with great balance so im guessing hes got a good bend. i have him ahead of takk at the moment, takk is larger and stronger for no reason, he locks on to tackles and just gets in shoving matches and goes nowhere, he does nothing to disengage, he plays stiff, and he has a ton of work to do, harold landry gets off the ball and works the tackles with his feet, but most importantly he BEATS tackles, sometimes going untouched because he knifes the gap so quickly. 

without question im putting harold landry ahead of takk. everything ive seen from takk so far suggests a late 2nd round project, harold landry looks like the edge rusher the ravens THOUGHT kamalei correa was, undersized but a lightning quick spark plug of an edge rusher that sticks his nose into every single play, except landry beats tackles and correa just sprinted around them.

[rossihunter2]

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

harold landry is a menace. he flies off the ball, and tackles are just playing a guessing game from the snap, you arent gonna block him by mirroring him, tackles need to anticipate and jump his moves because he  executes them so quick. still havent seen a true bend from him but he is certainly flexible with great balance so im guessing hes got a good bend. i have him ahead of takk at the moment, takk is larger and stronger for no reason, he locks on to tackles and just gets in shoving matches and goes nowhere, he does nothing to disengage, he plays stiff, and he has a ton of work to do, harold landry gets off the ball and works the tackles with his feet, but most importantly he BEATS tackles, sometimes going untouched because he knifes the gap so quickly. 

without question im putting harold landry ahead of takk. everything ive seen from takk so far suggests a late 2nd round project, harold landry looks like the edge rusher the ravens THOUGHT kamalei correa was, undersized but a lightning quick spark plug of an edge rusher that sticks his nose into every single play, except landry beats tackles and correa just sprinted around them.

Full disclosure I haven't seen Landry, but watching takk I see a lot of the same things you see but it looks coachable - he's successful in spite of him not often doing what he needs - and what really nailed my thinking about takk was seeing how effective he is when he does put it together - I saw one play where he got his hands in and ripped the tackle bent the edge and hammered the qb all at pace - that's what shoots him "up my board" so to speak - but I'll put Landry on my list to look at

[JoeyFlex5]

43 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

Full disclosure I haven't seen Landry, but watching takk I see a lot of the same things you see but it looks coachable - he's successful in spite of him not often doing what he needs - and what really nailed my thinking about takk was seeing how effective he is when he does put it together - I saw one play where he got his hands in and ripped the tackle bent the edge and hammered the qb all at pace - that's what shoots him "up my board" so to speak - but I'll put Landry on my list to look at

Oh yeah he's got the occasional rip and a nice underhook as well. He just seems so easily beaten in 1 on 1 matchups. That's coachable but the stiffness worries me even with coaching. 

He's strikingly similar to Emmanuel ogbah.

[rossihunter2]

2 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Oh yeah he's got the occasional rip and a nice underhook as well. He just seems so easily beaten in 1 on 1 matchups. That's coachable but the stiffness worries me even with coaching. 

He's strikingly similar to Emmanuel ogbah.

I like takk's effort though, his motor just keeps on running and he looks for things to do - there was one play I saw where he ended up on the ground having hit the qb, the qb threw a pick and takk sprung up and made a crushing block - he was just quicker and had more desire than everyone else

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

On 1/3/2017 at 4:15 PM, JoeyFlex5 said:

agreed. steady player, nothing special to take him in the mid 2nd. i wouldnt consider him til the very late 2nd.

I think he could be an excellent complimentary pass rusher/edge player at the NFL level. But nothing overly special. 

[allblackraven]

1 hour ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

I think he could be an excellent complimentary pass rusher/edge player at the NFL level. But nothing overly special. 

He can be more. Anderson and Williams remind me a lot of Golden and Shane Ray, respectively, when they were coming out. There's a lot of work Anderson does that enables Williams to make a play and he still manages to be very productive, making lot of tackles for loss and adding sacks of his own. He is rarely out of the play because he is smart and sees what's going on. More I watch Anderson, more I like him.

Same with Golden, whom we handed over to Cardinals on a plate, so we can pick Maxx Williams. Third in sacks this year in NFL. Trend continued with Spence / Correa.

No doubt we'll pick project again and leave Anderson to wreck opposing backfields on some other team.

[JoeyFlex5]

3 hours ago, allblackraven said:

He can be more. Anderson and Williams remind me a lot of Golden and Shane Ray, respectively, when they were coming out. There's a lot of work Anderson does that enables Williams to make a play and he still manages to be very productive, making lot of tackles for loss and adding sacks of his own. He is rarely out of the play because he is smart and sees what's going on. More I watch Anderson, more I like him.

Same with Golden, whom we handed over to Cardinals on a plate, so we can pick Maxx Williams. Third in sacks this year in NFL. Trend continued with Spence / Correa.

No doubt we'll pick project again and leave Anderson to wreck opposing backfields on some other team.

I understand that comparison but I think golden was a better pass rusher coming out and Anderson is a better all around guy with less to offer as a pass rusher.

[JoeyFlex5]

8 hours ago, rossihunter2 said:

I like takk's effort though, his motor just keeps on running and he looks for things to do - there was one play I saw where he ended up on the ground having hit the qb, the qb threw a pick and takk sprung up and made a crushing block - he was just quicker and had more desire than everyone else

He certainly has a high motor, but when his motor is running at 100% and the tackle is just standing there stonewalling the guy it's worrisome. 

[hn68wb4]

11 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

harold landry is a menace. he flies off the ball, and tackles are just playing a guessing game from the snap, you arent gonna block him by mirroring him, tackles need to anticipate and jump his moves because he  executes them so quick. still havent seen a true bend from him but he is certainly flexible with great balance so im guessing hes got a good bend. i have him ahead of takk at the moment, takk is larger and stronger for no reason, he locks on to tackles and just gets in shoving matches and goes nowhere, he does nothing to disengage, he plays stiff, and he has a ton of work to do, harold landry gets off the ball and works the tackles with his feet, but most importantly he BEATS tackles, sometimes going untouched because he knifes the gap so quickly. 

without question im putting harold landry ahead of takk. everything ive seen from takk so far suggests a late 2nd round project, harold landry looks like the edge rusher the ravens THOUGHT kamalei correa was, undersized but a lightning quick spark plug of an edge rusher that sticks his nose into every single play, except landry beats tackles and correa just sprinted around them.

I really love what I see from Landry, also something people don't talk about is that he's got some unbelievable balance on the edge and great reflexes; because of both of those cut blocks don't always get him and on tape you don't ever see him on his butt. Very underrated traits to have, lots of edge rushers you see tackles throw them off balance and that's enough to take them to the ground, once that happens it's over. I think he will end up being a first rounder when it's all said and done, there are a few other edge guys that I believe will start to drop during the pre-draft process for various reasons, guys like Harris I think will end up being lock second rounders. He's one of those guys that top to bottom looks the part and screams the kind of players that rises up boards during the offseason.

Edited January 5 by hn68wb4