2017 edge rusher

[raven94]

So in a lot of my mocks it ends up being that BPA at our picks in the first and second are pass rushers/OLB. I honestly don't mind that, but what do you guys think about going pass rusher with the first two picks? A part of me thinks that's overkill, another part of me thinks that's just fine. 

[ravensnation5220]

30 minutes ago, raven94 said:

So in a lot of my mocks it ends up being that BPA at our picks in the first and second are pass rushers/OLB. I honestly don't mind that, but what do you guys think about going pass rusher with the first two picks? A part of me thinks that's overkill, another part of me thinks that's just fine. 

Considering we already have ZDS and Judon that does seem like overkill

[Jonah DeVito]

1 hour ago, ravensnation5220 said:

Considering we already have ZDS and Judon that does seem like overkill

ZDS really isn't going to be in our longterm plan. He's just not very good. 

[ravensnation5220]

1 minute ago, Jonah DeVito said:

ZDS really isn't going to be in our longterm plan. He's just not very good. 

Harbaugh seemed to vouch for him at the end of the year though? 

[Jonah DeVito]

1 minute ago, ravensnation5220 said:

Harbaugh seemed to vouch for him at the end of the year though? 

Let me rephrase that. I really don't think he should be part of our longterm plan. Im sure they want him to step up, but he is definitely not the answer to our OLB problems. 

[raven94]

1 minute ago, Jonah DeVito said:

Let me rephrase that. I really don't think he should be part of our longterm plan. Im sure they want him to step up, but he is definitely not the answer to our OLB problems. 

So you don't think 2 OLB/pass rushers with the first 2 picks is overkill?

[Jonah DeVito]

50 minutes ago, raven94 said:

So you don't think 2 OLB/pass rushers with the first 2 picks is overkill?

I think one would suffice as we still have Suggs for the time being. However if there's a guy like Tim Williams still there for us in the 2nd, which I don't think he will be, I would be all for 2 edge rushers in a row. So I think it would be best to target other needs before double dipping unless there's a can't miss guy who falls in the 2nd. 

[rossihunter2]

2 edge rushers up top isn't overkill as long as they pan out - as with most draft picks - if we got Tim Williams or Barnett in the first and then Charles Harris or Carl Lawson in the 2nd I'd be pretty damn happy - if we then double dipped at corner in the 3rd with Moreau (maybe) and Witherspoon I'd be elated and not really care anymore that we got no offense in the first 2 days

[JoeyFlex5]

9 hours ago, ravensnation5220 said:

Considering we already have ZDS and Judon that does seem like overkill

ZDS looks like a lost cause

[Edgar]

Reddick/Ryan Anderson would  do nicely.

 

[trevorsteadman]

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

ZDS looks like a lost cause

Here's to hoping he just had a sophomore slump and hope that Judon doesn't have a sophomore slump.

[raven94]

8 hours ago, Jonah DeVito said:

I think one would suffice as we still have Suggs for the time being. However if there's a guy like Tim Williams still there for us in the 2nd, which I don't think he will be, I would be all for 2 edge rushers in a row. So I think it would be best to target other needs before double dipping unless there's a can't miss guy who falls in the 2nd. 

Normally that's how it goes in my mocks, OLB in 1 usually Watt or Harris. Then in round 2 T. Williams is there so I take him. I always feel like it's overkill but then I think about having 2 young studs manning the positions for years and giving great sack production against the great AFC QB's and really elevating the team to a SB contender 

[raven94]

2 hours ago, rossihunter2 said:

2 edge rushers up top isn't overkill as long as they pan out - as with most draft picks - if we got Tim Williams or Barnett in the first and then Charles Harris or Carl Lawson in the 2nd I'd be pretty damn happy - if we then double dipped at corner in the 3rd with Moreau (maybe) and Witherspoon I'd be elated and not really care anymore that we got no offense in the first 2 days

That's actually along the lines of how I usually do the mock. In the end I always notice that I neglected the offense, but then I picture the defense with 4 more legitimate starters to help with pass defense, which has been the Achilles of the team for a long time, and I think it's alright. I needed to get some opinions from you guys though

[JoeyFlex5]

15 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

Here's to hoping he just had a sophomore slump and hope that Judon doesn't have a sophomore slump.

I don't think so man, ZDS overachieved as a rookie and all 6 of his sacks came purely as a result of coverage or blown blocking assignments. Anytime he's been forced to engage and actually rush the edge conventionally, he has been awful. He comes off the line upright, barely uses his hands, and sprints straight out of the play. 

Judon is showing lateral movement and dissecting openings into the pocket and great hand usage and some bend as well, not to mention his absurd awareness that had him, a small school rookie, abandoning a free rush to break off and cover screens, the offense tried to outsmart him multiple times by not blocking him and dumping off into the space he vacated and he never fell for it, that was the thing that made me really think we found a gem. Voch Lombardi likes to say "if you ain't getting blocked you gettin set up" and Judon doesn't get set up, it's impressive for a rookie. Z just brainlessly runs and hopes something happens.

[trevorsteadman]

58 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I don't think so man, ZDS overachieved as a rookie and all 6 of his sacks came purely as a result of coverage or blown blocking assignments. Anytime he's been forced to engage and actually rush the edge conventionally, he has been awful. He comes off the line upright, barely uses his hands, and sprints straight out of the play. 

Judon is showing lateral movement and dissecting openings into the pocket and great hand usage and some bend as well, not to mention his absurd awareness that had him, a small school rookie, abandoning a free rush to break off and cover screens, the offense tried to outsmart him multiple times by not blocking him and dumping off into the space he vacated and he never fell for it, that was the thing that made me really think we found a gem. Voch Lombardi likes to say "if you ain't getting blocked you gettin set up" and Judon doesn't get set up, it's impressive for a rookie. Z just brainlessly runs and hopes something happens.

Then my question would be does the team target more of a Dumervil type OLB to compliment Judon for when Suggs retires? The Ravens talk about Judon playing about the same game as Suggs. That leaves me to question if the team would draft a Derek Barnett or would they rather go the Charles Harris route? Does the team really care about a 3rd down specialist more than an overall rounded player that can play both the run?

Just leaves me interested for this draft.

[JoeyFlex5]

28 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

Then my question would be does the team target more of a Dumervil type OLB to compliment Judon for when Suggs retires? The Ravens talk about Judon playing about the same game as Suggs. That leaves me to question if the team would draft a Derek Barnett or would they rather go the Charles Harris route? Does the team really care about a 3rd down specialist more than an overall rounded player that can play both the run?

Just leaves me interested for this draft.

Well Barnett is flat out better than Harris in every way, I'm sure they wouldn't mind having 2 stud 3 down OLBs rather than rotating them constantly. 

[trevorsteadman]

13 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Well Barnett is flat out better than Harris in every way, I'm sure they wouldn't mind having 2 stud 3 down OLBs rather than rotating them constantly. 

I disagree I think Harris has a better burst and faster first few steps by far.

[JoeyFlex5]

1 minute ago, trevorsteadman said:

I disagree I think Harris has a better burst and faster first few steps by far.

Doesn't mean he's a better player. Those traits fall into the "pass rush category" and yeah you can break down each little trait, but Barnett is still a far better edge rusher, which is what I was referring to

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

14 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

I disagree I think Harris has a better burst and faster first few steps by far.

i think the point is, ignoring every individual trait... put them together and Barnett is a better pass rusher, better run defender, better setting the edge, etc....

 

EDIT - i see he already responded similarly.

Edited March 31 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[trevorsteadman]

33 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Doesn't mean he's a better player. Those traits fall into the "pass rush category" and yeah you can break down each little trait, but Barnett is still a far better edge rusher, which is what I was referring to

 

22 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

i think the point is, ignoring every individual trait... put them together and Barnett is a better pass rusher, better run defender, better setting the edge, etc....

 

EDIT - i see he already responded similarly.

Yeah don't get me wrong I think Barnett is better than Harris, but saying Barnett is better than Harris in 'every way' is not true. I was just saying there are a few traits that Harris has that is better than Barnett. If I was on the clock and had to pick the better player Barnett would be on the card. My point was, based off of what our defense has been, does Harris fit the team more than Barnett? 

[JoeyFlex5]

41 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

 

Yeah don't get me wrong I think Barnett is better than Harris, but saying Barnett is better than Harris in 'every way' is not true. I was just saying there are a few traits that Harris has that is better than Barnett. If I was on the clock and had to pick the better player Barnett would be on the card. My point was, based off of what our defense has been, does Harris fit the team more than Barnett? 

Didn't Harris test worse than Barnett in essentially every explosion and agility test at the combine despite Barnett having the flu? Or were they just neck and neck?

[trevorsteadman]

5 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Didn't Harris test worse than Barnett in essentially every explosion and agility test at the combine despite Barnett having the flu? Or were they just neck and neck?

The combine isn't the best test for player explosiveness. It is there to try to show off players' skills but in all honesty we all know that on tape everyone can see that Harris is more explosive.

[andromeda]

Based on my experience where I acted as the Ravens GM in a full mock draft, I just do not see Barnett falling all the way to the Ravens. I think it is highly likely the Eagles or Cardinals would snag him first. I guess it is possible though if NFL scouts are not as high on Barnett as the media and fans are. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

2 minutes ago, andromeda said:

Based on my experience where I acted as the Ravens GM in a full mock draft, I just do not see Barnett falling all the way to the Ravens. I think it is highly likely the Eagles or Cardinals would snag him first. I guess it is possible though if NFL scouts are not as high on Barnett as the media and fans are. 

The only way I see the Eagles not going CB is if they take Dalvin Cook, McCaffery, Mike Williams, Corey Davis or John Ross.

Its CB, RB, WR or bust.

[ravensnation5220]

4 minutes ago, andromeda said:

Based on my experience where I acted as the Ravens GM in a full mock draft, I just do not see Barnett falling all the way to the Ravens. I think it is highly likely the Eagles or Cardinals would snag him first. I guess it is possible though if NFL scouts are not as high on Barnett as the media and fans are. 

If that's the case then those scouts need to get fired lol

[andromeda]

2 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

The only way I see the Eagles not going CB is if they take Dalvin Cook, McCaffery, Mike Williams, Corey Davis or John Ross.

Its CB, RB, WR or bust.

I agree CB is a pressing need but the Eagles actually had issues getting to the QB late in the season. I think they'd chomp at the bit if Barnett is on the board when they pick. Also, pass rush is much better value over WR & RB anyways and this year's CB class is deep. 

[JoeyFlex5]

46 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

The combine isn't the best test for player explosiveness. It is there to try to show off players' skills but in all honesty we all know that on tape everyone can see that Harris is more explosive.

Broad jump is a great test for explosiveness actually, it tends to be pretty indicative. Whether it converts to production on the field is a different story, a player can be very explosive and now know to use it. I think that's what Charles Harris is, he's explosive but lacks other tools to put it to use, like change of direction and flexibility and balance. Harris appears more athletic on film but Barnett gets a good jump off the ball more often than not, Harris plays very animated and Barnett doesn't, so while Harris is playing downhill and using dramatic looking spin moves, Barnett is playing more tactical and controlled. 

I think obviously Harris is more explosive, but I don't think it's by a very large margin, I think it just appears that way because Barnett plays a lot more controlled and Harris Is just out there gunning it. 

[ravensnation5220]

1 minute ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Broad jump is a great test for explosiveness actually, it tends to be pretty indicative. Whether it converts to production on the field is a different story, a player can be very explosive and now know to use it. I think that's what Charles Harris is, he's explosive but lacks other tools to put it to use, like change of direction and flexibility and balance. Harris appears more athletic on film but Barnett gets a good jump off the ball more often than not, Harris plays very animated and Barnett doesn't, so while Harris is playing downhill and using dramatic looking spin moves, Barnett is playing more tactical and controlled. 

I think obviously Harris is more explosive, but I don't think it's by a very large margin, I think it just appears that way because Barnett plays a lot more controlled and Harris Is just out there gunning it. 

I also think vertical measures explosiveness. Harris has a 37.5 inch very at his pro day

[ravensnation5220]

Everyone has to watch Carl Lawsons Arkansas and LSU tape. I think I counted about 15 times in both games where he either pressured the qb or got the sack. 

@JoeyFlex5 what do you think about him? His tape, especially those 2 games are great

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

1 hour ago, andromeda said:

I agree CB is a pressing need but the Eagles actually had issues getting to the QB late in the season. I think they'd chomp at the bit if Barnett is on the board when they pick. Also, pass rush is much better value over WR & RB anyways and this year's CB class is deep. 

I think much of that had to do with Barwin not being a fit at DE.

Theyve got big money tied up in Brandon Graham and Vinny Curry and just signed Long. Long/Curry will prob rotate and Graham doesnt come off the field. They could use pass rush but its a luxury at this point compared to other positions.

Name a CB on their roster without looking it up. As of now they'd be starting Jalen Mills, a 6th or 7th rd pick from last year.

Wendell Smallwood is their current starting RB.

Alshon/Torrey on 1 yr deals.

 

Trust me, if it isnt CB at 14 its only bc they fall in love with Cook or a WR. Otherwise its CB.