2017 edge rusher

[JoeyFlex5]

3 minutes ago, ravensnation5220 said:

I remember how long it took me to convince you on Barnett lol. Although he kind of did it himself after his past year. 

Barnett and takk have been my top 2 edge guys after garrett for a while now. 

Top5

1.Garrett 2.Barnett 3.takk 4.Harris 5.Williams 

I didn't include Solomon Thomas; I don't see him playing the edge much in the NFL 

Who are your top 5?

 

I didn't like his bad tackling but he cleaned it up a bit. It also took a while for me to overlook the average burst to notice his amazing bend. 

My top 5 is Garrett, Barnett, taco, harris, and reddick. I prefer reddick after the championship game where Williams failed to bend over and over by losing his footing, maybe an unfair assessment but the fact that he's an athletic freak who also bends well unlike a takk or Harris is where he appeal lied with him, and seeing him fail to bend repeatedly in such a big moment was a turn off. 

[ravensnation5220]

13 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I didn't like his bad tackling but he cleaned it up a bit. It also took a while for me to overlook the average burst to notice his amazing bend. 

My top 5 is Garrett, Barnett, taco, harris, and reddick. I prefer reddick after the championship game where Williams failed to bend over and over by losing his footing, maybe an unfair assessment but the fact that he's an athletic freak who also bends well unlike a takk or Harris is where he appeal lied with him, and seeing him fail to bend repeatedly in such a big moment was a turn off. 

Wow no takk??? I mean I know bending the edge is a good thing to have but pass rushers can still be productive without it. It's kinda like get off

Barnett lacks in get off and explosion at the line but he wins with leverage, strength, and balance(bend) and skill while takk wins by his get off (his speed to power is the best in this class) and athleticism. He may not know how to use his hands well but when he does they are powerful. Harris and Tim also won often by their get off. So there's 3 very productive pass rushers who can win without much or great bend. I'm not diminishing Barnetts skill or traits just advocating for the others

[JoeyFlex5]

1 minute ago, ravensnation5220 said:

Wow no takk??? I mean I know bending the edge is a good thing to have but pass rushers can still be productive without it. It's kinda like get off

Barnett lacks in get off and explosion at the line but he wins with leverage, strength, and balance(bend) and skill while takk wins by his get off (his speed to power is the best in this class) and athleticism. He may not know how to use his hands well but when he does they are powerful. Harris and Tim also won often by their get off. So there's 3 very productive pass rushers who can win without much or great bend. I'm not diminishing Barnetts skill or traits just advocating for the others

Harris is the most explosive edge guy in the class, and has the rare combo of elite explosion, hand usage, and strength. You don't see edge rushers as explosive as him that both have very refined hands and work the inside rush very well. He has also shown a fair bit of bend just not consistently. He's different imo. 

Takk for my liking is wayyyy too raw. He also appears stiff as hell. I get the motor and athleticism and power and all, but he gets completely stonewalled too often and shows a total inability to disengage. I may be in the minority but I just don't see any more than a long shot project for mid to late second round.

[Jacquouille]

2 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I didn't like his bad tackling but he cleaned it up a bit. It also took a while for me to overlook the average burst to notice his amazing bend. 

My top 5 is Garrett, Barnett, taco, harris, and reddick. I prefer reddick after the championship game where Williams failed to bend over and over by losing his footing, maybe an unfair assessment but the fact that he's an athletic freak who also bends well unlike a takk or Harris is where he appeal lied with him, and seeing him fail to bend repeatedly in such a big moment was a turn off. 

I'd put TJ Watt as the fifth.

[JoeyFlex5]

8 hours ago, Jacquouille said:

I'd put TJ Watt as the fifth.

I like tj watt a lot but as a pure edge rusher he might fall short of those guys, at least right now it looks that way. He's a great all around defender though.

[ravensnation5220]

2 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I like tj watt a lot but as a pure edge rusher he might fall short of those guys, at least right now it looks that way. He's a great all around defender though.

I don't really like comparisons but I think clay Mathews is a great comp for tj 

[JoeyFlex5]

13 minutes ago, ravensnation5220 said:

I don't really like comparisons but I think clay Mathews is a great comp for tj 

I make it a point to not compare white players to other white players because it seems lazy lol. I like Ahmad brooks as a comp.

[ravensnation5220]

19 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I make it a point to not compare white players to other white players because it seems lazy lol. I like Ahmad brooks as a comp.

Ya I know what you mean. That's why I don't like the kupp/Nelson comp but I like the watt/Mathews comp because they both do everything well. They can line up at any linebacker spot in a 3-4. Idk about Brooks comp cause Brooks had more of a compact body. Tj uses his length and athleticism 

[JoeyFlex5]

2 minutes ago, ravensnation5220 said:

Ya I know what you mean. That's why I don't like the kupp/Nelson comp but I like the watt/Mathews comp because they both do everything well. They can line up at any linebacker spot in a 3-4. Idk about Brooks comp cause Brooks had more of a compact body. Tj uses his length and athleticism 

Brooks was a reach for a comp to avoid the obvious Matthews comp lol. I was just looking for any 34 edge guy who wasn't a pure rusher

[rossihunter2]

13 hours ago, allblackraven said:

Yet, for all that great bend and instinct, he made exactly 1.5 plays vs Robinson last season. Completely missing in action vs run, jumped off sides few times, too. He definitely wasn't close to winning on the edge in that game.

Crimson tide fan here, but cam was beaten virtually every snap by Barnett, the number of times hurts had to get rid of the ball quickly or go to the screen in stead of the downfield shot was enormous

and don't forget bama was playing with a lead the whole game - I cant imagine what would have happened had Barnett been allowed to tee off against a chasing bama offense

most of bama's run plays in that game either went away from Barnett behind the bama right guard who had a great game or were qb scrambles (some were to barnett's side to be fair)

barnett literally had cam on skates in that matchup - cam would lunge early to try and get hands on and hope he made contact and Barnett would just rip by him off the edge - hurts mostly just got the ball out quick

Edited February 28 by rossihunter2

[rossihunter2]

10 hours ago, ravensnation5220 said:

Wow no takk??? I mean I know bending the edge is a good thing to have but pass rushers can still be productive without it. It's kinda like get off

Barnett lacks in get off and explosion at the line but he wins with leverage, strength, and balance(bend) and skill while takk wins by his get off (his speed to power is the best in this class) and athleticism. He may not know how to use his hands well but when he does they are powerful. Harris and Tim also won often by their get off. So there's 3 very productive pass rushers who can win without much or great bend. I'm not diminishing Barnetts skill or traits just advocating for the others

For me, takk is like an even less polished myles Garrett, but in his case the lack of polish is a problem because he'd get stonewalled - too many times he's content to just run people over and back them into the qb when he could be beating them to the edge - he's just really raw - his pure athleticism is crazy but he's too raw for me to consider him in the same realm as Barnett or Harris etc...

my top 5 at the moment is Garrett, Barnett, Harris, Williams, Charlton

[ravensnation5220]

1 minute ago, rossihunter2 said:

For me, takk is like an even less polished myles Garrett, but in his case the lack of polish is a problem because he'd get stonewalled - too many times he's content to just run people over and back them into the qb when he could be beating them to the edge - he's just really raw - his pure athleticism is crazy but he's too raw for me to consider him in the same realm as Barnett or Harris etc...

my top 5 at the moment is Garrett, Barnett, Harris, Williams, Charlton

Fair enough. I just think teams will covet his athleticism and ceiling as a player, I think he's a top 20 pick based off that alone. I think he could be used as an inside rushers in pass situations early in his career while he learns his craft on the edge. Guards wouldn't be able to handle him inside.

[rossihunter2]

14 minutes ago, ravensnation5220 said:

Fair enough. I just think teams will covet his athleticism and ceiling as a player, I think he's a top 20 pick based off that alone. I think he could be used as an inside rushers in pass situations early in his career while he learns his craft on the edge. Guards wouldn't be able to handle him inside.

oh i agree that's where he's going - but i wouldn't want him for the ravens there - many teams will take him before i would want him

[Willbacker]

I'm probally the only one that thinks Ryan Anderson is the better edge coming out of Bama.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

1 hour ago, rossihunter2 said:

Crimson tide fan here, but cam was beaten virtually every snap by Barnett, the number of times hurts had to get rid of the ball quickly or go to the screen in stead of the downfield shot was enormous

and don't forget bama was playing with a lead the whole game - I cant imagine what would have happened had Barnett been allowed to tee off against a chasing bama offense

most of bama's run plays in that game either went away from Barnett behind the bama right guard who had a great game or were qb scrambles (some were to barnett's side to be fair)

barnett literally had cam on skates in that matchup - cam would lunge early to try and get hands on and hope he made contact and Barnett would just rip by him off the edge - hurts mostly just got the ball out quick

that was the first game i watched every snap of Barnetts.... and they literally ran the entire game plan to avoid him.

The only time they went his way was after running 4-5 straight plays away from him, and then used the over pursuit of the defense to that side to run a PA fake and screen to Barnett's side.

Even with the limited opportunity he had to actually impact the game, he still did. And abused Cam. Over and over and over again. It was just awesome to watch.

 

After watching that tape I was convinced he was the safest pass rusher in the draft. Might not have the freak upside of Garrett, but I think at worst hes a consistent 3 down starter in the Pro Bowl convo getting you 8-12 sacks as the norm.

Probably one of the 3-5 safest players period in the draft, in my opinion, along with Jamal Adams, Jonathan Allen, and maybe Fournette or Sidney Jones (in terms of being a guaranteed at least solid starter).

[JoeyFlex5]

i was beginning to sour on tim williams after watching some of his film again, watched a couple games, and then watched the auburn game again, and every time i see that film i get hyped on the kid. he absolutely dominated. the dude is just such a menace. i wanna talk myself out of being a tim williams fan, ill say he has inconsistent bend, ill say hes gotten more favorable matchups than probably any college edge rusher, ill say he appears a little on the small side, but when i watch the auburn film and i see him turn the tackles hips with 3-4 steps on every pass rush snap, see him underhook so early and do it successfully, see him turn the tackles hips early and spin back upfield, he just does these things so well. 

i wanna find every reason to not want him at 16, but i cant. i dont wanna be disappointed when we dont take him at 16 so i try to talk myself out of it, but i cant. this dude wins pass rushing snaps on the first step so often, but he isnt a speed rusher, hes a bonafide PASS rusher, he'll beat you with the first step and then finish like a bully by out-manning a tackle who weighs 70 lbs more, hands, feet, quickness, power, he is just a game wrecker, and i cant talk myself out of it. 

voch lombardi did a great video of him as well, if you arent big on tim williams for whatever reason, this vid will change your mind.

[allblackraven]

11 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

i was beginning to sour on tim williams after watching some of his film again, watched a couple games, and then watched the auburn game again, and every time i see that film i get hyped on the kid. he absolutely dominated. the dude is just such a menace. i wanna talk myself out of being a tim williams fan, ill say he has inconsistent bend, ill say hes gotten more favorable matchups than probably any college edge rusher, ill say he appears a little on the small side, but when i watch the auburn film and i see him turn the tackles hips with 3-4 steps on every pass rush snap, see him underhook so early and do it successfully, see him turn the tackles hips early and spin back upfield, he just does these things so well. 

i wanna find every reason to not want him at 16, but i cant. i dont wanna be disappointed when we dont take him at 16 so i try to talk myself out of it, but i cant. this dude wins pass rushing snaps on the first step so often, but he isnt a speed rusher, hes a bonafide PASS rusher, he'll beat you with the first step and then finish like a bully by out-manning a tackle who weighs 70 lbs more, hands, feet, quickness, power, he is just a game wrecker, and i cant talk myself out of it. 

voch lombardi did a great video of him as well, if you arent big on tim williams for whatever reason, this vid will change your mind.

On pass rushing proves, there's Garrett on another planet compared to everybody else. Then there's Williams, then all the others, Harris being my 3rd favourite.

If you really need a reason to dislike him at 16, I can think of two:

- Alabama defense as a whole made his job easier
- few interviews I watched made me cringe a little

[JoeyFlex5]

7 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

On pass rushing proves, there's Garrett on another planet compared to everybody else. Then there's Williams, then all the others, Harris being my 3rd favourite.

If you really need a reason to dislike him at 16, I can think of two:

- Alabama defense as a whole made his job easier
- few interviews I watched made me cringe a little

as far as pass rushing moves go, i think barnett is the best, hes just far less athletic than garrett, you dont see college rushers as refined as barnett too often. 

and yeah i know alabamas defense makes anyone look better, williams definitely had a bigger matchup advantage than any college edge rusher, but i study traits and his traits are damn good. sure i can handicap it a little and factor in the frequent single matchups he had, but that doesnt take away from his traits. being on the worst front seven in college wouldnt slow down his first step, or make his engage/disengage any less violent, or his snap anticipation, i mean hell you name an important edge rusher trait and williams has it at an elite level. when it comes to on the field, the only concern is that hes an average run defender but not a liability. 

i could imagine hes had bad interviews, he seems to be about as sharp as a marble based on the brandon chicken story, and hopefully he was honest about the gun thing. some people just like guns and have no real intention of using it unless their life is in danger, some people think its a tough guy accessory and are dumb enough to WANT to be a thug. havent seen his interviews but that ones real concerning, because the 2 ends of the spectrum are so far apart.

[Jacquouille]

1 hour ago, allblackraven said:

On pass rushing proves, there's Garrett on another planet compared to everybody else. Then there's Williams, then all the others, Harris being my 3rd favourite.

If you really need a reason to dislike him at 16, I can think of two:

- Alabama defense as a whole made his job easier
- few interviews I watched made me cringe a little

His interview after the Championship this year was really good though. Showed a lot of humility and respect.

[JoeyFlex5]

30 minutes ago, Jacquouille said:

His interview after the Championship this year was really good though. Showed a lot of humility and respect.

watching some interviews now and actually surprised. he seems like a high character guy, hes humble, team oriented, seems to really love football and love his team, pretty well spoken. first time hearing him speak and it makes me think a little less of the dumdum incidents hes had in college. felt the same of noah spence, he seemed like a really good kid who just got caught up in some party drugs at a major university, tim williams though is on another planet regarding talent.

[rossihunter2]

5 hours ago, allblackraven said:

On pass rushing proves, there's Garrett on another planet compared to everybody else. Then there's Williams, then all the others, Harris being my 3rd favourite.

If you really need a reason to dislike him at 16, I can think of two:

- Alabama defense as a whole made his job easier
- few interviews I watched made me cringe a little

The more I watch the less far apart I think even Garrett and Allen are from the rest of the pack, I never bothered watching them before because of the consensus but I think the gap between them and the rest of the pack is not as vast as all these mocks make out

[ALI624]

Looks like Barnett is sick and will not be participating at the combine. At least today's drills.

Edited March 4 by ALI624

[RaineV1]

47 minutes ago, ALI624 said:

Looks like Barnett is sick and will not be participating at the combine. At least today's drills.

Well, this possibly increases the chance that he falls to the Ravens.

[raven94]

6 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

watching some interviews now and actually surprised. he seems like a high character guy, hes humble, team oriented, seems to really love football and love his team, pretty well spoken. first time hearing him speak and it makes me think a little less of the dumdum incidents hes had in college. felt the same of noah spence, he seemed like a really good kid who just got caught up in some party drugs at a major university, tim williams though is on another planet regarding talent.

I've been saying it for a little while now. Tim Williams is a great prospect. His run defense for me was the biggest question and he showed me against LSU that he can square up and do his job when asked to. As for off the field incidents he had no priors leading up to the gun thing and nothing came afterward. He had a gun that he had a permit for, but in Louisiana where he's from, not a permit for alabama. He might not have known the rules for guns and state lines. I've been saying he's a fantastic prospect that we should consider but in a trade back option. I've been thinking of picking him up in the 20's  and getting more picks

[rossihunter2]

36 minutes ago, raven94 said:

I've been saying it for a little while now. Tim Williams is a great prospect. His run defense for me was the biggest question and he showed me against LSU that he can square up and do his job when asked to. As for off the field incidents he had no priors leading up to the gun thing and nothing came afterward. He had a gun that he had a permit for, but in Louisiana where he's from, not a permit for alabama. He might not have known the rules for guns and state lines. I've been saying he's a fantastic prospect that we should consider but in a trade back option. I've been thinking of picking him up in the 20's  and getting more picks

as long as he passes drugs tests he should start heading back up draft boards again

[Jacquouille]

9 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

watching some interviews now and actually surprised. he seems like a high character guy, hes humble, team oriented, seems to really love football and love his team, pretty well spoken. first time hearing him speak and it makes me think a little less of the dumdum incidents hes had in college. felt the same of noah spence, he seemed like a really good kid who just got caught up in some party drugs at a major university, tim williams though is on another planet regarding talent.

Never understood why people were questionning that. Few players seem so passionate on the field, you can see how he's going nuts when he gets a sack and the way he's willing to hit the QB and not just get the stat on his resume. We're also talking a guy that took 15 lbs on his own to get better and prepare for the NFL. That's a lot of work ethic needed.

[Jonah DeVito]

I just really, really want Barnett on the Ravens. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

18 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

i was beginning to sour on tim williams after watching some of his film again, watched a couple games, and then watched the auburn game again, and every time i see that film i get hyped on the kid. he absolutely dominated. the dude is just such a menace. i wanna talk myself out of being a tim williams fan, ill say he has inconsistent bend, ill say hes gotten more favorable matchups than probably any college edge rusher, ill say he appears a little on the small side, but when i watch the auburn film and i see him turn the tackles hips with 3-4 steps on every pass rush snap, see him underhook so early and do it successfully, see him turn the tackles hips early and spin back upfield, he just does these things so well. 

i wanna find every reason to not want him at 16, but i cant. i dont wanna be disappointed when we dont take him at 16 so i try to talk myself out of it, but i cant. this dude wins pass rushing snaps on the first step so often, but he isnt a speed rusher, hes a bonafide PASS rusher, he'll beat you with the first step and then finish like a bully by out-manning a tackle who weighs 70 lbs more, hands, feet, quickness, power, he is just a game wrecker, and i cant talk myself out of it. 

voch lombardi did a great video of him as well, if you arent big on tim williams for whatever reason, this vid will change your mind.

Likewise... I'm really starting to champion Williams. 

Barnett's still my top choice at 16, but Williams I think has passed Harris in my mind as the next guy. 

If Barnetts off the board and we could trade down a few spots, pick up an extra 3rd and still grab Williams I'd be absolutely stoked. 

[Jacquouille]

http://draftwire.usatoday.com/2017/03/05/jonathan-allen-headed-for-a-draft-day-fall/

Welp.

[RaineV1]

1 hour ago, Jacquouille said:

http://draftwire.usatoday.com/2017/03/05/jonathan-allen-headed-for-a-draft-day-fall/

Welp.

I doubt that happens, but I would be thrilled if it did. Miller saying he could fall into the teens, which would be a dream come true. The Ravens would grab him without a second thought.