2017 edge rusher

[rossihunter2]

8 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

The biggest issue with Barnett is he just does not have that speed, closing burst, or explosion you want from an edge rusher. That's going to limit him to being, in my opinion, an 8-10 sack guy instead of being the potential 15+ sack guy that Garrett will be.

Taco Charlton, I'd think, is a sleeper for the Ravens. He doesn't defend the run, but the Ravens want a pass rusher and he's freakishly athletic and can bend the edge and just burst right upfield to the quarterback. I think he's got scary good potential with good coaching and the Ravens have a history of turning good players into great ones on defense.

Plus, Jim Harbaugh will be more than willing to give John the skinny on Charlton.

i dont see speed as an issue for barnett at all - he can consistently get to the edge and bend it quickly - he's got a good first step and can win very quickly with his hands - he's just not an all out speed rusher like garrett and williams and harris

[KBoum]

Barnett might be the best thing for the Ravens if they switch to a 4-3 Under. They used more and more that scheme as the year went on last season. Lets be honest they are a Nickle Base Defense but when playing a 2 Wide formations they mostly played 4-3 Under from half the season to end of the season. Barnett has all the skills and tools to be D-End in that scheme and a player like Correa would really benefit from playing behind a guy like Barnett.

 

Let's face it Correa can't take on NFL Tackles. He needs to play vs TE and RBs. Thats why 4-3 SAM is more fit than typical 3-4. Brandon Williams (or Pierce) is your 1 tech... Jernigan the typical 3-tech. Kaufusi and Barnett could play Ends. All they need is a Will or Nickle Backer. Thats why I was so high last season on Cravens, Jatavius Brown and Deion Jones.

 

[ravensnation5220]

So now we all know the true identity of Tim Williams infamous friend Mr.Chicken. He also happens to be the worst ravens draft pick of all time. 

I guess Mr.williams managed to return the rest of the weed to Mr.Chicken. LOL

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Just watched Taco vs Florida St. 

I don't see it. He has speed but I see straight line speed, not short area quickness. He's explosive but if he has to change direction it's looks laborious for him to do so. 

I didn't see any bend at all. In fact, his one sack of the game he almost missed bc he didn't bend. Last second he reaches an arm out and luckily brings the QB down but was one step from being washed out of the play. 

Aside from the sack he had 2 good hits on the QB. One he came completely unblocked. The other the LT expected blitz inside and Charlton just blew by outside. 

I thought his best play was a TFL on Cook in the 3rd qtr where he did a real nice job being patient, shedding his block right when needed to make a great tackle on a Cook cutback. 

But again, most of his effective pass rush came from manufactured pressure or missed assignment where he had a clear path to the ball. 

His one sack he almost missed bc he was so upright and didn't bend to turn the corner.

if this was supposed to be a good example then I'm not optimistic.... but onto Ohio State and Wisconsin. 

[rossihunter2]

7 minutes ago, ravensnation5220 said:

So now we all know the true identity of Tim Williams infamous friend Mr.Chicken. He also happens to be the worst ravens draft pick of all time. 

I guess Mr.williams managed to return the rest of the weed to Mr.Chicken. LOL

am i missing something?

[ravensnation5220]

8 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

am i missing something?

And: Ravens safety Matt Elam arrested after police find 126 grams of Marijuana and 3 grams of Oxycodone

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Alright watched Taco vs Ohio State.

Def the best sample I've seen from him yet, but still inconsistent. 2-3 really good pass rushes where he showed ability to bend, though still limited. 

Still not liking how he seems top heavy and struggles to change direction. Went unblocked with clean shot at QB, went high and made contact but Barrett easily stepped and shrugged it off. Slightest side step and he couldn't get his body behind the tackle. 

There were certainly more positives than negatives this game... and I can see the potential but I'm still not sold on value at 16 let alone top 10. 

Great athlete but I don't see much of it translating on field. Straight line speed that's erased with any need for change of direction. Great burst up field but often wasted bc he doesn't turn the corner effectively enough often enough. 

Im seeing him as the #5 edge rusher still behind Garrett, Barnett, Harris/Takk. 

Not quite as sour on him as I was seeing some of the upside I've been hearing about in this Ohio State game... but also seeing a lot to further confirm what I don't like about him. 

[PurpleHorseman]

57 minutes ago, ravensnation5220 said:

And: Ravens safety Matt Elam arrested after police find 126 grams of Marijuana and 3 grams of Oxycodone

Cap space

[ravensnation5220]

3 minutes ago, PurpleHorseman said:

Cap space

?

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

1 hour ago, ravensnation5220 said:

And: Ravens safety Matt Elam arrested after police find 126 grams of Marijuana and 3 grams of Oxycodone

Is this the extent of Williams off field red flags or is there more??

if this is it I'm actually not all that concerned. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I don't know what to make of Williams. He's an explosive athlete and highly productive in a limited and highly specialized capacity. 

But he has a lot of space to operate. Allen just pops on any Bama tape I watch. He's an absolute beast. #54 at DT eats space and looks like a good player and then Anderson on the other side commands attention. 

Without considering all that I'm tempted to move him ahead of Takk and Taco.... but then again I'm trying to project how guys like them, Harris and Barnett would do with that much talent around them.... and it's hard to imagine them not being dominant if not more so. 

I think early on, if he ends up with a team that just needs a situational pass rusher he's going to kill it. A lot of the other top guys, especially Barnett and Taco feel like they need volume to really get going. 

Williams obviously can thrive getting limited snaps. If he somehow falls to end 1st or even early 2nd I'd love him as a trade up target... 

 

Edit: #54 is Dalvin Tomlinson... haven't done any DL prospects yet. I really like this dude though. Don't know what his buzz or draft stock is but if he's a late day 2, day 3 guy I'd love him especially if we lose BWill. 

Edited February 26 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[Jacquouille]

Barnett is the pick at 16th, it just makes too much sense for it not to happen.

[ravensnation5220]

22 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Is this the extent of Williams off field red flags or is there more??

if this is it I'm actually not all that concerned. 

No this is pretty much it. The gun makes it seem worse than it is but I'm not too concerned about it either. Its just kinda funny. I mean he doesn't have nearly as many issues as cook but when it comes to weed in the NFL, they just simply don't allow it. So if he can't pass a drug test hell never see the feild. 

I'll give go the benefit of the doubt though. He is the first in his family to go to college so he didn't come from a very educated home.

[rossihunter2]

8 hours ago, ravensnation5220 said:

And: Ravens safety Matt Elam arrested after police find 126 grams of Marijuana and 3 grams of Oxycodone

I'm still confused about the "worst Ravens pick of all time" thing... 

[rossihunter2]

6 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I don't know what to make of Williams. He's an explosive athlete and highly productive in a limited and highly specialized capacity. 

But he has a lot of space to operate. Allen just pops on any Bama tape I watch. He's an absolute beast. #54 at DT eats space and looks like a good player and then Anderson on the other side commands attention. 

Without considering all that I'm tempted to move him ahead of Takk and Taco.... but then again I'm trying to project how guys like them, Harris and Barnett would do with that much talent around them.... and it's hard to imagine them not being dominant if not more so. 

I think early on, if he ends up with a team that just needs a situational pass rusher he's going to kill it. A lot of the other top guys, especially Barnett and Taco feel like they need volume to really get going. 

Williams obviously can thrive getting limited snaps. If he somehow falls to end 1st or even early 2nd I'd love him as a trade up target... 

 

Edit: #54 is Dalvin Tomlinson... haven't done any DL prospects yet. I really like this dude though. Don't know what his buzz or draft stock is but if he's a late day 2, day 3 guy I'd love him especially if we lose BWill. 

This of course is all true but when you watch the tape you aren't necessarily looking for just a completed pressure etc. You're looking for traits that can transfer and Tim Williams is electric off the snap, uses his hands well to set up his rush and bends the edge quite well... this stuff is all independent of who's on the other side...

and I like Dalvin thomlinson too but he doesn't really offer much on passing downs so probably won't get picked up til the end of day 2 at the earliest i think

[ravensnation5220]

42 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

I'm still confused about the "worst Ravens pick of all time" thing... 

That was just referring to elam. Although boller could be in the mix

[RavensDieHard21]

10 hours ago, Jacquouille said:

Barnett is the pick at 16th, it just makes too much sense for it not to happen.

It has seemed and might even still seem unlikely, but I can 100% see it happening. Combine will launch up many athletic freaks. Hopefully they make it ahead of us. I could see a lot of teams putting too much into the numbers and Barnett could be our next pillar on defense. He's possibly the 4th or 5th best player in this draft. 

Only teams I could seriously see ruining the day are the saints and colts. I'm hopeful they take a corner or OL.

[Jacquouille]

2 hours ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

It has seemed and might even still seem unlikely, but I can 100% see it happening. Combine will launch up many athletic freaks. Hopefully they make it ahead of us. I could see a lot of teams putting too much into the numbers and Barnett could be our next pillar on defense. He's possibly the 4th or 5th best player in this draft. 

Only teams I could seriously see ruining the day are the saints and colts. I'm hopeful they take a corner or OL.

I think guys like McKinley are going to kill it and scouts will be like «Oh wow, didn't see that coming, I'll put him top10 on my board» like they did with Ramsey and Barnett will fall like Suggs did, and we'll pick him up like we did when Suggs fell. It just seems so natural when I write it.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

14 hours ago, rossihunter2 said:

This of course is all true but when you watch the tape you aren't necessarily looking for just a completed pressure etc. You're looking for traits that can transfer and Tim Williams is electric off the snap, uses his hands well to set up his rush and bends the edge quite well... this stuff is all independent of who's on the other side...

and I like Dalvin thomlinson too but he doesn't really offer much on passing downs so probably won't get picked up til the end of day 2 at the earliest i think

Well no crap.

Hes really explosive and can bend... but hes also really thin in the hips and legs (at least it appears so to me). And traits can seem overblown when a guy is constantly facing inferior competition or less talented players/situations. And when youve got two DT's commanding and beating double teams, and another pass rusher that can beat 1on1's in his own right.... youve got much of the time Williams facing the other teams RT, often a far inferior athlete who most of the time project as big guards if anything.

Much easier to bend under a guy with horrible footwork who cant get low himself... and you look a heck of a lot more explosive on an island with a heavy footed, far less athletic tackle.

Most of the other pass rushers consistently lined up against LT's, often facing double teams and having to win to produce. Williams was often brought in to face the RT, or to exploit match ups they knew he would win 1on1.

It's also easier to maintain said explosion, bend and athleticism when you're only playing situational downs and often 1v1 instead of taking the constant pounding of double teams, setting edges, and wearing down from playing all game.

 

There's isolating traits... but there's also determining whether traits project to what you need and are investing in. And as i said, if all you need Williams to be is a 3rd down match up rusher... youre prob gonna get exactly that and he'll be great at it. But, at 16 i want more than that. It's ok if he starts out as that, but i want to know, not hope, KNOW that he can do it eventually.

Its tough to tell what Williams motor is, whether he stays disciplined when getting frustrated with double teams, is he disciplined when setting the edge and pursuing the run. Is he still explosive in his pass rush is hes playing 3 downs? Can he win in other ways if hes facing someone with enough athleticism to stick him? Does he continue to fight if hes not experiencing constant success?

Those are things that we know far less about with Williams than almost any other edge rusher. And sometimes traits disappear when more is added to the plate, or success isnt as easy to come by.

 

Cooper Kupp on tape looks like a solid route runner, with break away pace and some real suddenness to his  game and breaks. Until you watch side by side with some other guys and you realize he's really decelerating a ton in his breaks, and the dudes hes breaking away from arent the same level athlete.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

10 hours ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

It has seemed and might even still seem unlikely, but I can 100% see it happening. Combine will launch up many athletic freaks. Hopefully they make it ahead of us. I could see a lot of teams putting too much into the numbers and Barnett could be our next pillar on defense. He's possibly the 4th or 5th best player in this draft. 

Only teams I could seriously see ruining the day are the saints and colts. I'm hopeful they take a corner or OL.

I can definitely see the Saints falling in love with Barnett. More worried about them taking him than anyone else.

I'm sort of hoping that the Safeties, RB's, WR's and a couple QBs all get taking ahead of us. Wouldnt be disappointed if a Hooker/Adams, Williams/Davis or even a Fournette/Cook fell to us and ended up being the pick... but I think if Solomon Thomas is there for the Saints that's who they take. And, im fairly confident if Barnett gets passed the Saints he falls to us.

 

It's sad but a little part of me almost wants someone to take Barnett, bc if hes on the board and we go with someone else (at least where my mind is right now) I'll be upset about it and itll make me not like our pick as much. And I really, really want to like our pick and be happy after the 1st round,

[PurpleHorseman]

6 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I can definitely see the Saints falling in love with Barnett. More worried about them taking him than anyone else.

I'm sort of hoping that the Safeties, RB's, WR's and a couple QBs all get taking ahead of us. Wouldnt be disappointed if a Hooker/Adams, Williams/Davis or even a Fournette/Cook fell to us and ended up being the pick... but I think if Solomon Thomas is there for the Saints that's who they take. And, im fairly confident if Barnett gets passed the Saints he falls to us.

 

It's sad but a little part of me almost wants someone to take Barnett, bc if hes on the board and we go with someone else (at least where my mind is right now) I'll be upset about it and itll make me not like our pick as much. And I really, really want to like our pick and be happy after the 1st round,

Which player would you like to see fall that has a realistic shot of falling to No. 16. As in odds are he doesn't fall to 16 but could?

[rossihunter2]

i just watched voch lombardi's cam robinson video and it was interesting watching myles garrett and then derek barnett go up against him and seeing how much more effective barnett was

obviously garrett is still the 1st overall guy in the draft but it was an interesting and very direct comparison of their skillsets and how effective some of barnett's polish is... the more i see of barnett and the more i go back and rewatch some of his tape the more excited i am about him as a prospect

[JoeyFlex5]

2 hours ago, rossihunter2 said:

i just watched voch lombardi's cam robinson video and it was interesting watching myles garrett and then derek barnett go up against him and seeing how much more effective barnett was

obviously garrett is still the 1st overall guy in the draft but it was an interesting and very direct comparison of their skillsets and how effective some of barnett's polish is... the more i see of barnett and the more i go back and rewatch some of his tape the more excited i am about him as a prospect

Barnetts a lot more effective with his bend, great way to abuse cam Robinson who is known to take short first steps from time to time. Barnett gauges that first step and when he feels the OT drop shallow he wastes no steps and dips down as soon as he gets close to his outside shoulder. 

Thats barnetts natural feel and instinct, uncoachable stuff.

[allblackraven]

12 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Barnetts a lot more effective with his bend, great way to abuse cam Robinson who is known to take short first steps from time to time. Barnett gauges that first step and when he feels the OT drop shallow he wastes no steps and dips down as soon as he gets close to his outside shoulder. 

Thats barnetts natural feel and instinct, uncoachable stuff.

Yet, for all that great bend and instinct, he made exactly 1.5 plays vs Robinson last season. Completely missing in action vs run, jumped off sides few times, too. He definitely wasn't close to winning on the edge in that game.

[ravensnation5220]

14 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Barnetts a lot more effective with his bend, great way to abuse cam Robinson who is known to take short first steps from time to time. Barnett gauges that first step and when he feels the OT drop shallow he wastes no steps and dips down as soon as he gets close to his outside shoulder. 

Thats barnetts natural feel and instinct, uncoachable stuff.

I'm honestly hoping Barnett will be our pick. I wanted him since last year. Then take Desmond king in the second round

[JoeyFlex5]

27 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

Yet, for all that great bend and instinct, he made exactly 1.5 plays vs Robinson last season. Completely missing in action vs run, jumped off sides few times, too. He definitely wasn't close to winning on the edge in that game.

Jumped offsides once, also drew a false start from cam so it's a wash. 2 turnovers including a sack fumble.

And on 8 separate occasions(including the 2 turnovers) he flat out beat cam, he didn't always finish the play whether it was because of play design(quick release, misdirection) or hurts' athleticism, but in terms of that matchup, he beat him throughout most of the game, Alabama just clearly was the better team and were able to avoid him.

your Bama bias is showing lol. 

[allblackraven]

9 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Jumped offsides once, also drew a false start from cam so it's a wash. 2 turnovers including a sack fumble.

And on 8 separate occasions(including the 2 turnovers) he flat out beat cam, he didn't always finish the play whether it was because of play design(quick release, misdirection) or hurts' athleticism, but in terms of that matchup, he beat him throughout most of the game, Alabama just clearly was the better team and were able to avoid him.

your Bama bias is showing lol. 

Not at all - I don't rate Robinson very high as NFL tackle prospect but saying Barnett abused him in that game is straight laughable.

[JoeyFlex5]

8 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

Not at all - I don't rate Robinson very high as NFL tackle prospect but saying Barnett abused him in that game is straight laughable.

The film is there. I just watched it and tallied up the plays that he beat cam...

[ravensnation5220]

NFL.com had a article on Mike mayocks pre combine teleconference and this is what he had to say about Derek Barnett draft stock:

" Tennessee hasn't produced a first-round draft pick since Ja'Wuan James went to the Miami Dolphins in 2014, but look for DE Derek Barnett to snap that drought this year. Mayock's expected range on the selection of Barnett is No. 10 overall (Buffalo Bills) to No. 22 overall (Miami Dolphins)."

Guess who's right in the middle at pick 16. It makes too much sense for the ravens not to pass on him, and after the combine I think his stock will take a hit. I don't care what he tests at the combine. Kid can play

[ravensnation5220]

56 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

The film is there. I just watched it and tallied up the plays that he beat cam...

I remember how long it took me to convince you on Barnett lol. Although he kind of did it himself after his past year. 

Barnett and takk have been my top 2 edge guys after garrett for a while now. 

Top5

1.Garrett 2.Barnett 3.takk 4.Harris 5.Williams 

I didn't include Solomon Thomas; I don't see him playing the edge much in the NFL 

Who are your top 5?

 

Edited February 28 by ravensnation5220